From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Tue Feb 1 01:05:07 2005 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:05:07 +1100 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: <41F9F35D.10805@hdw.be> Message-ID: ACBL Appeals Committee obiter dictum: [snip] >>>As a matter of self-interest, though, a player should strongly >>>consider explaining the **intended** meaning of his bid [snip] >>>Since this is a tough case to make without written evidence >>>(such as a notation on the CC or system notes) a player will >>>often be better off explaining his own understanding of a >>>disputed call, **regardless** of which partner was mistaken. {RJH emphasis added} Richard Hills rant: [snip] >>suggest that a player lie about a partnership agreement Herman De Wael question: >I believe the suggestion is not to lie about a partnership >agreement, but rather to volunteer information about what one >thinks the partnership agreement is? [snip] Richard Hills interpretation: No, I think that a literal reading of the ACBL AC advice is that if: (a) a player has temporarily forgotten their *partnership* agreement, and (b) consequently misbid, but (c) later realises their partner's subsequent misdescription of their cards is a correct description of their *partnership* agreement, however (d) does not have documentary evidence available about their *partnership* agreement, then (e) the ACBL AC has adopted the De Wael School advice that a player should save time by lying about their *partnership* agreement, inventing a *unilateral* non-agreement which corresponds with their original intention to describe their actual cards. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Tue Feb 1 04:17:55 2005 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:17:55 +1100 Subject: [blml] Toil and trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Imps Dlr: North Vul: None The bidding has gone: WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH --- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) 4S Dble(4) Pass ? (1) 15+ hcp, any shape. (2) Both majors. (3) Artificial game force. (4) Takeout double, but North would bid 4NT with a 5/5 (or better) distribution with both minors. You, South, hold: Q6 AQJ65 J7 T975 What call do you make? What other calls do you consider making? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From yylwgznf@cgocable.com Tue Feb 1 05:02:11 2005 From: yylwgznf@cgocable.com (Brian Roe) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 06:02:11 +0100 Subject: [blml] Canada Phmaracy Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------098942487822395 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----464151692282180073" ------464151692282180073 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Canuck Prhamayc *****on premediation requisite***** * Lowest Prices * Valor, Xray, Vitality, Supa, Amor, Philosophy, moo!! * Fearful Desire *****on premeditation requisite***** ------464151692282180073 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = ------464151692282180073-- ------098942487822395 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhswGlAHcAMSH+GlNvZnR3YXJlOiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT2ZmaWNlACH5BAEAAAAALAEAAQCx 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(1) 15+ hcp, any shape. (2) Both majors. (3) Artificial game force. (4) Takeout double, but North would bid 4NT with a 5/5 (or better) distribution with both minors. [Nigel] IMO... 5H=10 P=9 4N (2 places)=8 -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.4 - Release Date: 25/01/2005 From atoniofernando@netscape.net Tue Feb 1 07:10:09 2005 From: atoniofernando@netscape.net (cfmATONIO FERNANDO) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:10:09 +0100 Subject: [blml] (*SPAM*) URGENT ASSISTANCE yyim Message-ID: <20050201071005.BC94419E@rhubarb.custard.org> Dear sir/madam As you read this, I don't want you to feel sorry for me, because, I believe everyone will die someday.My name is ATONIO FERNANDO a merchant in PHILLIPINES,I have been diagnosed with Esophageal cancer .It has defiled all forms of medical treatment, and right now I have only about a few months to live, according to medical experts. I have not particularly lived my life so well, as I never really cared for anyone(not even myself) but my business. Though I am very rich, I was never generous, I was always hostile to people and only focused on my business as that was the only thing I cared for. But now I regret all this as I now know that there is more to life than just wanting to have or make all the money in the world.I believe when God gives me a second chance to come to this world I would live my life a different way from how I have lived it. Now that God has called me, I have willed and given most of my property and assets to my immediate and extended family members as well as a few close friends.I want God to be merciful to me and accept my soul so, I have decided to give alms to charity organizations, as I want this to be one of the last good deeds I do on earth. So far, I have distributed money to some charity organizations in the U.A.E, Algeria and Malaysia. Now that my health has deteriorated so badly, I cannot do this myself anymore. I once asked members of my family to close one of my accounts and distribute the money which I have there to charity organization in Bulgaria and Pakistan, they refused and kept the money to themselves. Hence, I do not trust them anymore, as they seem not to be contended with what I have left for them. The last of my money which no one knows of is the huge cash deposit of eighteen million united states dollars that I have with a finance/Security Company abroad. I will want you to help me collect this deposit and dispatched it to charity organizations. I have set aside twenty percent for you and for your time. God be with you. Regards ATONIO FERNANDO jleldwbltwqkdtggvtmpjhtik From HSHDRCIAWA@sirry.freeserve.co.uk Tue Feb 1 07:53:31 2005 From: HSHDRCIAWA@sirry.freeserve.co.uk (Kate Billings) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:53:31 +0100 Subject: [blml] Vicodin - only now Eddie In-Reply-To: <24531128143048.B6015@evergreen.doit.wisc.edu> References: <24830224173406.A16305@solace.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <27331129233551.K36451@access.noc.ntua.gr> Big sale on Vicodin and other drugs. You won`t find better prices anywhere! V icodin - 90 PiIls - 178$ V iagra - 100 PilIs - 209.99$ C ialis - 90 PiIls - 324$ A mbien - 120 PilIs - 249$ X anax - 90 PiIls - 299$ and many more... Please click below and check out our offer. http://cambodia.bighealt.info/in.php?aid=44 battleground winkle brother cody afterword inasmuch belove moen impious benign dortmund affiance toe curbside contact celeste brainchild sandy jaguar lanka copra coleridge battleground esmark chantey sidewinder handicraft trip rubdown seneca bayesian inescapable turkish longtime prep digestion excerpt increasable sana barnyard anvil convoy gigaherz precambrian jeres mustn't bravado deliverance restful rash shamble cosmetic coil caroline From anne@baa-lamb.co.uk Tue Feb 1 10:17:44 2005 From: anne@baa-lamb.co.uk (Anne Jones) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:17:44 -0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction Message-ID: <000501c50847$46bbcc20$e8320952@AnnesComputer> Junior International competition (Under 25s) - without screens. Regulations EBL Scoring IMPs converted to VPs How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? N/S Vun Dealer N ...A32 ....AQ9862 ....3 ....Q84 976......Q8 10753 AJ2......Q107654 J32.......K10765 ....KJ1054 ....KJ4 ....K98 ....A9 N.....E......S.....W 1H.....2NT*.....X......P P.....3D......4H....X P......5C......P.......P 5H.....P.......P.....X XX.......6C.....X......6D P........P.......X......AP *Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is told by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss of tempo. The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. Result N/S +500 From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Tue Feb 1 10:26:44 2005 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:26:44 -0000 Subject: [blml] Junior Auction Message-ID: <003401c50848$886735a0$e8320952@AnnesComputer> Junior International competition (Under 25s) - without screens. Regulations EBL Scoring IMPs converted to VPs How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? N/S Vun Dealer N ...A32 ....AQ9862 ....3 ....Q84 976......Q8 10753 AJ2......Q107654 J32.......K10765 ....KJ1054 ....KJ4 ....K98 ....A9 N.....E......S.....W 1H.....2NT*.....X......P P.....3D......4H....X P......5C......P.......P 5H.....P.......P.....X XX.......6C.....X......6D P........P.......X......AP *Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is told by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss of tempo. The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. Result N/S +500 From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Tue Feb 1 10:52:59 2005 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:52:59 -0000 Subject: [blml] Re: Junior Auction Message-ID: <000b01c5084c$3368a580$e8320952@AnnesComputer> Actual agreement (on CC when found) = 2NT overcall is 2 suited for minors. TD was called at end of play by N/S who felt they had been damaged :-) Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Jones" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: Junior Auction > Junior International competition (Under 25s) - without screens. > > Regulations EBL > > Scoring IMPs converted to VPs > > How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? > > > > N/S Vun Dealer N > > > > ...A32 > > ....AQ9862 > > ....3 > > ....Q84 > > > > 976......Q8 > > 10753 > > AJ2......Q107654 > > J32.......K10765 > > > > ....KJ1054 > > ....KJ4 > > ....K98 > > ....A9 > > > > N.....E......S.....W > > 1H.....2NT*.....X......P > > P.....3D......4H....X > > P......5C......P.......P > > 5H.....P.......P.....X > > XX.......6C.....X......6D > > P........P.......X......AP > > > > > > *Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is > told > by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss of > tempo. > The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. > > > > Result N/S +500 > From Harald.Skjaran@bridgefederation.no Tue Feb 1 07:33:35 2005 From: Harald.Skjaran@bridgefederation.no (Skjaran, Harald) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:33:35 +0100 Subject: SV: [blml] Toil and trouble Message-ID: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB279900019E111F@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> Richard Hills wrote: Imps Dlr: North Vul: None The bidding has gone: WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH --- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) 4S Dble(4) Pass ? (1) 15+ hcp, any shape. (2) Both majors. (3) Artificial game force. (4) Takeout double, but North would bid 4NT with a 5/5 (or better) distribution with both minors. You, South, hold: Q6 AQJ65 J7 T975 What call do you make? ----- Pass ----- What other calls do you consider making? ----- Pass, pass and pass, in that order. Regards, Harald Skjaeran ----- Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru _______________________________________________ blml mailing list blml@rtflb.org http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From infodayzerlotonl@netscape.net Tue Feb 1 11:27:21 2005 From: infodayzerlotonl@netscape.net (ajewLOTO) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:27:21 +0100 Subject: [blml] (*SPAM*) CONGRATULATION sln Message-ID: <20050201112719.E264C2C8@rhubarb.custard.org> CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!! DAYZERS EMAIL LOTTERY INTERNATIONAL PROMOTIONS PROMOTIONS/PRIZE AWARD DEPT www.dayzers.nl REF: IJPL/544259609/HR1 BATCH: BST/91993/A AWARD FINAL NOTIFICATION: We are pleased to inform you of the release, of the long awaited results of the end of year DAYZERS LOTTERY INTERNATIONAL PROMOTION PROGRAM held on the 29th January 2005.You were entered as dependent clients with: Reference Number:NM/BF3534654/FB13, and Batch number NM/572655/KOP. 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Lottery Co-ordinator International. itbphmixgtnmbelajdrekccamsklccbbgdjs From wmevius@hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 11:50:05 2005 From: wmevius@hotmail.com (Willem Mevius) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:50:05 +0000 Subject: [blml] Toil and trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: a) 5H b) pass Willem Mevius wmevius@hotmail.com >From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au >To: blml@rtflb.org >CC: rnixon@TREASURY.GOV.AU >Subject: [blml] Toil and trouble >Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:17:55 +1100 > > > > > >Imps >Dlr: North >Vul: None > >The bidding has gone: > >WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH >--- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) >4S Dble(4) Pass ? > >(1) 15+ hcp, any shape. >(2) Both majors. >(3) Artificial game force. >(4) Takeout double, but North would > bid 4NT with a 5/5 (or better) > distribution with both minors. > >You, South, hold: > >Q6 >AQJ65 >J7 >T975 > >What call do you make? >What other calls do you consider making? > > >Best wishes > >Richard Hills >Movie grognard and general guru > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@rtflb.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From Harald.Skjaran@bridgefederation.no Tue Feb 1 13:02:58 2005 From: Harald.Skjaran@bridgefederation.no (Skjaran, Harald) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:02:58 +0100 Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction Message-ID: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB27990001AFCCCA@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> Anne Jones wrote: =20 Actual agreement (on CC when found) =3D 2NT overcall is 2 suited for minors. TD was called at end of play by N/S who felt they had been damaged :-) Anne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Anne Jones" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: Junior Auction > Junior International competition (Under 25s) - without screens. > Regulations EBL > Scoring IMPs converted to VPs > How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? > > N/S Vun Dealer N > > ....A32 > ....AQ9862 > ....3 > ....Q84 > 976......Q8 > 10753 > AJ2......Q107654 > J32......K10765 > ....KJ1054 > ....KJ4 > ....K98 > ....A9 > > N.....E......S.....W > 1H....2NT*...X.....P > P.....3D.....4H....X > P.....5C.....P.....P > 5H....P......P.....X > XX....6C.....X.....6D > P.....P......X.....AP > > *Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is=20 > told > by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss of=20 > tempo. > The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. > > Result N/S +500 ----- I can see several problems here, all of them concerning east's bidding with UI. To me, west's pass of 2NT doubled means that west intends to play there. If not, west would give preference to a minor or redouble to show equal length. Normally I would not allow east to remove 2NTx, and thus rule 2NTx 7 down, NS +1,700. However, if EW could provide system notes documenting that their 2NT overcalls are sound by agreement, I might allow east to remove 2NT x to 3D. But I would never allow removing 4Hx to 5C. So if I were convinced to allow removing 2NTx, I would rule 4Hx with 3 overtricks (on a club leas), NS +890. East even removed 5Hx, believe it or not! No matter what I ruled (+1,700 or +890), in some other company I would impose a very heavy PP on EW. At junior level I would possibly be somewhat more lenient. But it's an international tournament, so I'll not ignore east's actions completely. A PP of 2 VP is in it's place. And I would explain very carefully to east his obligations after having received UI from partner. I would also explain why (s)he didn't get a heavier PP than merely 2VP's. Regards, Harald Skjaeran ----- _______________________________________________ blml mailing list blml@rtflb.org http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From hermandw@hdw.be Tue Feb 1 13:31:18 2005 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:31:18 +0100 Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction In-Reply-To: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB27990001AFCCCA@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> References: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB27990001AFCCCA@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> Message-ID: <41FF84A6.9010801@hdw.be> I must confess to not having read the original before Harald's reformatting: Skjaran, Harald wrote: > Anne Jones wrote: > > Actual agreement (on CC when found) = 2NT overcall is 2 suited for > minors. > > TD was called at end of play by N/S who felt they had been damaged :-) > > Anne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anne Jones" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:26 AM > Subject: Junior Auction > > > >>Junior International competition (Under 25s) - without screens. >>Regulations EBL >>Scoring IMPs converted to VPs >>How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? >> >>N/S Vun Dealer N >> >>....A32 >>....AQ9862 >>....3 >>....Q84 >>976......Q8 >>10753 >>AJ2......Q107654 >>J32......K10765 >>....KJ1054 >>....KJ4 >>....K98 >>....A9 >> >>N.....E......S.....W >>1H....2NT*...X.....P >>P.....3D.....4H....X >>P.....5C.....P.....P >>5H....P......P.....X >>XX....6C.....X.....6D >>P.....P......X.....AP >> >>*Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and > > is > >>told >>by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss of >>tempo. >>The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. >> >>Result N/S +500 > > ----- > I can see several problems here, all of them concerning east's bidding > with UI. > So can I. > To me, west's pass of 2NT doubled means that west intends to play there. > If not, west would give preference to a minor or redouble to show equal > length. > I don't really agree. Partnerships who don't have enough confidence te know whether or not they are playing 2NT for the minors do not have an agreement that passing the double means they want to play there. I would allow the pull to one of the minors. > Normally I would not allow east to remove 2NTx, and thus rule 2NTx 7 > down, NS +1,700. > > However, if EW could provide system notes documenting that their 2NT > overcalls are sound by agreement, I might allow east to remove 2NT x to > 3D. > Why? what does it matter whether E or W correctly remembers their system? E has UI that W has understood his bid differently than intended. You should rule the UI in the same waay regardless of the true meaning. > But I would never allow removing 4Hx to 5C. Neither would I. Removing 2NTX is possible, but removing the clear penalty double is only based on knowing partner thinks you have about 12 HCP more than you actually do. > So if I were convinced to allow removing 2NTx, I would rule 4Hx with 3 > overtricks (on a club leas), NS +890. > > East even removed 5Hx, believe it or not! Well, he is consistent, is he not? > No matter what I ruled (+1,700 or +890), in some other company I would > impose a very heavy PP on EW. At junior level I would possibly be > somewhat more lenient. But it's an international tournament, so I'll not > ignore east's actions completely. A PP of 2 VP is in it's place. And I > would explain very carefully to east his obligations after having > received UI from partner. I would also explain why (s)he didn't get a > heavier PP than merely 2VP's. > Some "international" players are very inexperienced at serious bridge, and these events are also there to teach them about these things. Clearly this East has never before heard of UI. So you teach him, but you don't have to penalize him. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date: 27/01/2005 From hermandw@hdw.be Tue Feb 1 13:32:07 2005 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:32:07 +0100 Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction In-Reply-To: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB27990001AFCCCA@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> References: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB27990001AFCCCA@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> Message-ID: <41FF84D7.1090700@hdw.be> Skjaran, Harald wrote: > > East even removed 5Hx, believe it or not! What is the score for 5HXX+2? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date: 27/01/2005 From blml@blakjak.com Tue Feb 1 13:41:07 2005 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:41:07 +0000 Subject: [blml] Toil and trouble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wrote > > > > >Imps >Dlr: North >Vul: None > >The bidding has gone: > >WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH >--- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) >4S Dble(4) Pass ? > >(1) 15+ hcp, any shape. >(2) Both majors. >(3) Artificial game force. >(4) Takeout double, but North would > bid 4NT with a 5/5 (or better) > distribution with both minors. > >You, South, hold: > >Q6 >AQJ65 >J7 >T975 > >What call do you make? 5H. >What other calls do you consider making? 6H. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From kppyoorl@covad.net Tue Feb 1 13:36:29 2005 From: kppyoorl@covad.net (Jannie Neely) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:36:29 +0300 Subject: [blml] eiasest Pahramcy Message-ID: <20050201134334.98ACBB0@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------9791457152075810193 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----45309609875343545" ------45309609875343545 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Canuck Prhamayc *****on premediation requisite***** * Lowest Prices * Valor, Xray, Vitality, Supa, Amor, Philosophy, moo!! * Fearful Desire *****on premeditation requisite***** ------45309609875343545 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = ------45309609875343545-- ------9791457152075810193 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhswGlAHcAMSH+GlNvZnR3YXJlOiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT2ZmaWNlACH5BAEAAAAALAEAAQCx AaIAgQAAAIAAgP///wECAwL/hI+py+0Po5y0uoCzrRrvlIWBoX3miabqyrbuC8dNIIS1DNCjh4rY 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Kon4Ks8YLPyDJehSEe8CUrCYOZpTkcyIjy/TTW9HSYp3U1OoiBN0GB7Rj9s4cvhnHzyZfVMoMJEn GQUAADs= ------9791457152075810193-- From Robin.Barker@npl.co.uk Tue Feb 1 13:44:17 2005 From: Robin.Barker@npl.co.uk (Robin Barker) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:44:17 -0000 Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction Message-ID: <533D273D4014D411AB1D00062938C4D90849C59D@hotel.npl.co.uk> -----Original Message----- From: Herman De Wael [mailto:hermandw@hdw.be] Sent: 01 February 2005 13:32 To: blml Subject: Re: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction Skjaran, Harald wrote: > > East even removed 5Hx, believe it or not! What is the score for 5HXX+2? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be I prefer adjusting to 5HXX+2 not 4HX+3. I think that to add a further PP on top of adjusting to NS+2000 is twisting the knife. Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and/or privileged material; it is for the intended addressee(s) only. If you are not a named addressee, you must not use, retain or disclose such information. NPL Management Ltd cannot guarantee that the e-mail or any attachments are free from viruses. NPL Management Ltd. Registered in England and Wales. No: 2937881 Registered Office: Teddington, Middlesex, United Kingdom TW11 0LW. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From blml@blakjak.com Tue Feb 1 13:54:10 2005 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:54:10 +0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction In-Reply-To: <000501c50847$46bbcc20$e8320952@AnnesComputer> References: <000501c50847$46bbcc20$e8320952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <7r9RWEDCo4$BFwCJ@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Anne Jones wrote ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, Anne, I really could not get my head around it so I have reformated it - I hope you do not mind. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Junior International competition (Under 25s) Regulations EBL How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? ........ A32 ................. N/S Vul ........ AQ9862 .............. Dlr N ........ 3 ................... Imps > VPs ........ Q84 .. 976 ............ Q8 .. 10753 .......... -- .. AJ2 ............ Q107654 .. J32 ............ K10765 ........ KJ1054 ........ KJ4 ........ K98 ................. No screens ........ A9 .................. Result N/S +500 .... W ... N ... E.....S .... . .. 1H .. 2NT* . X .... P ... P .. 3D .. 4H .... X ... P .. 5C ... P .... P .. 5H ... P ... P .... X .. XX .. 6C ... X ... 6D ... P ... P ... X ... AP *Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is told by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss of tempo. The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From Frances.Hinden@Shell.com Tue Feb 1 14:46:33 2005 From: Frances.Hinden@Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:46:33 -0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101817484@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Anne Jones wrote (re-formatted) Junior International competition (Under 25s) Regulations EBL How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? ........ A32 ................. N/S Vul ........ AQ9862 .............. Dlr N ........ 3 ................... Imps > VPs ........ Q84 .. 976 ............ Q8 .. 10753 .......... -- .. AJ2 ............ Q107654 .. J32 ............ K10765 ........ KJ1054 ........ KJ4 ........ K98 ................. No screens ........ A9 .................. Result N/S +500 .... W ... N ... E.....S .... . .. 1H .. 2NT* . X .... P ... P .. 3D .. 4H .... X ... P .. 5C ... P .... P .. 5H ... P ... P .... X .. XX .. 6C ... X ... 6D ... P ... P ... X ... AP *Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is=20 told by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss=20 of tempo. The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------- I think some of the suggested rulings are a little silly. I don't think it's standard to play pass of the double of 2NT as to = play; most would say it is neutral while some (e.g. me) have a specific agreement = that it shows equal length in the minors or one card preference for clubs. So the 3D = call is legal. The first illegal call was 5C; the only legal LA for East at that point = was to pass 4Hx. All the subsequent auction, while mildly amusing, is irrelevant (except = to the extent that the final result was worse for N/S than playing in 4Hx). Is there some = Law that says when=20 a player has made a series of illegal calls we allow some of them but = not others? I think it very likely that after the auction as far as 4Hx NS will make = 11 tricks in hearts, so likely that I do not wish to give a split or weighted = score. From the pull to 3D (rather than 3C) North will deduce that East is 65 in the minors rather = than 5-5. In addition, given correct information only, North will believe that West has equal = length in the minors as he gave no preference over the double. On a club lead therefore = North will run it round to the queen, draw 3 rounds of trumps, then deduce West has 3 spades and = East 2. He will therefore continue with the jack of spades (he can't afford to cash the king = first) and lose tricks to the SQ and the DA. I'm already being generous to the NOS, as the play in 4H is = actually quite tough after a diamond to the Jack and a club switch - you will likely only = make 10 tricks now.=20 So I rule 4Hx+1 each way. If EW are playing in an international = competition then I would expect them to have some vague knowledge of the rules (maybe not if it's the = junior camp or similar) and they get somewhere between a warning and a large PP depending on how = experienced they are. From blml@blakjak.com Tue Feb 1 15:45:13 2005 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:45:13 +0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction In-Reply-To: <7r9RWEDCo4$BFwCJ@blakjak.demon.co.uk> References: <000501c50847$46bbcc20$e8320952@AnnesComputer> <7r9RWEDCo4$BFwCJ@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <8YPg64EJQ6$BFwgQ@blakjak.demon.co.uk> David Stevenson wrote >Anne Jones wrote > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > Sorry, Anne, I really could not get my head around it so I have >reformated it - I hope you do not mind. >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >Junior International competition (Under 25s) >Regulations EBL >How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? > >........ A32 ................. N/S Vul >........ AQ9862 .............. Dlr N >........ 3 ................... Imps > VPs >........ Q84 >.. 976 ............ Q8 >.. 10753 .......... -- >.. AJ2 ............ Q107654 >.. J32 ............ K10765 >........ KJ1054 >........ KJ4 >........ K98 ................. No screens >........ A9 .................. Result N/S +500 > >.... W ... N ... E.....S >.... . .. 1H .. 2NT* . X >.... P ... P .. 3D .. 4H >.... X ... P .. 5C ... P >.... P .. 5H ... P ... P >.... X .. XX .. 6C ... X >... 6D ... P ... P ... X >... AP > >*Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is >told by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss >of tempo. The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. Presumably East thought he had shown a weak minor two-suiter. In which case pass of 4Hx is completely routine, ie it is an LA, and pulling is suggested by the UI from West's answer to the question. I do not expect North to run the club if a club is led. Once he discovers the heart break he is likely to get the spades right - entries are difficult anyway to get them wrong - so I rule 4Hx +2. But wait!!!!!! The 6C bid is just as bad so why not rule 5Hxx +1? Yes! There is a legal problem which I have run into before: are you allowed to give an adjustment that includes one illegal bid [5C] because you are disallowing another [6C]? Certainly you are for the Os. L12C2 does not use the term "had the irregularity not occurred" for the Os, though it does for the NOs. I doubt anyone would argue if you rule as 5Hxx +1 but I think the correct legal answer may be: For N/S: 4Hx +2 For E/W: 5Hxx +1 Note that East's 3D bid is routine: an adjustment to 2NTx is incorrect. As for the Os the 5C and 6C bids are so far away form what is permitted that I either explain at length about L73C and what is required or I hit them with a double standard PP dependent on my impression of their experience. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Tue Feb 1 15:46:32 2005 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:46:32 +0000 Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction In-Reply-To: <41FF84A6.9010801@hdw.be> References: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB27990001AFCCCA@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> <41FF84A6.9010801@hdw.be> Message-ID: Herman De Wael wrote >I must confess to not having read the original before Harald's >reformatting: Harald's reformatting? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From axman22@hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 16:08:54 2005 From: axman22@hotmail.com (Roger Pewick) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:08:54 -0600 Subject: [blml] Toil and trouble References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Stevenson" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Toil and trouble > wrote > > > > > > > > > >Imps > >Dlr: North > >Vul: None > > > >The bidding has gone: > > > >WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH > >--- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) > >4S Dble(4) Pass ? > > > >(1) 15+ hcp, any shape. > >(2) Both majors. > >(3) Artificial game force. > >(4) Takeout double, but North would > > bid 4NT with a 5/5 (or better) > > distribution with both minors. > > > >You, South, hold: > > > >Q6 > >AQJ65 > >J7 > >T975 > > > >What call do you make? > > 5H. > > >What other calls do you consider making? > > 6H. > > -- > David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ I see two options for this hand [a] P and [b] 5C, not that I would consider [b] on this hand. Given that X suggests both majors, opposite a minimum opener my judgment suggests that this holding is unlikely to produce game let alone 4N or 4H. Given that opener can be significantly stronger than minimum, the probabilities are likely about 10% for 4N and 5% for 5C [optimistically]. Supposedly, the last double suggests strongly that opener is close to minimum [and even has good spade cards (which should not be neccessary to defeat 4S opposite game values)]. The only sensible action is P as this decrepid system, along with the silly S who held these cards immediately previous and judged them to be worth game, has foisted it upon me. regards roger pewick From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Tue Feb 1 22:50:16 2005 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:50:16 +1100 Subject: [blml] Toil and trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Imps >>Dlr: North >>Vul: None >> >>The bidding has gone: >> >>WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH >>--- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) >>4S Dble(4) Pass ? >> >>(1) 15+ hcp, any shape. >>(2) Both majors. >>(3) Artificial game force. >>(4) Takeout double, but North would >> bid 4NT with a 5/5 (or better) >> distribution with both minors. >> >>You, South, hold: >> >>Q6 >>AQJ65 >>J7 >>T975 >> >>What call do you make? >>What other calls do you consider making? Roger Pewick: >I see two options for this hand [a] P and [b] 5C, not >that I would consider [b] on this hand. > >Given that X suggests both majors, opposite a minimum >opener my judgment suggests that this holding is >unlikely to produce game let alone 4N or 4H. Given >that opener can be significantly stronger than >minimum, the probabilities are likely about 10% for >4N and 5% for 5C [optimistically]. > >Supposedly, the last double suggests strongly that >opener is close to minimum [and even has good spade >cards (which should not be necessary to defeat 4S >opposite game values)]. The only sensible action is >P as this decrepit system, along with the silly S who >held these cards immediately previous and judged them >to be worth game, has foisted it upon me. Richard Hills: The actual deal and actual auction -> AT987 74 K86 AKQ KJ5432 --- 982 KT3 943 AQT52 8 J6432 Q6 AQJ65 J7 T975 WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH --- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) 4S Dble(4) Pass 5C Pass Pass Pass (1) 15+ hcp, any shape. (2) Explained as showing both majors, but the partnership agreement was that it shows both minors. (3) Artificial game force. (4) Undiscussed, but in analogous auctions it would be a takeout double. (North assumed that the analogy was not relevant; South assumed the opposite.) Result: North-South -150. In accordance with Law 75D2, the director was summoned at the end of play. If you were the TD, how would you rule? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From siegmund@mosquitonet.com Wed Feb 2 00:58:45 2005 From: siegmund@mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:58:45 -0900 (AKST) Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction In-Reply-To: <41FF84A6.9010801@hdw.be> Message-ID: > Skjaran, Harald wrote: > > >>How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? > >> > >>N/S Vun Dealer N > >> > >>....A32 > >>....AQ9862 > >>....3 > >>....Q84 > >>976......Q8 > >>10753 > >>AJ2......Q107654 > >>J32......K10765 > >>....KJ1054 > >>....KJ4 > >>....K98 > >>....A9 > >> > >>N.....E......S.....W > >>1H....2NT*...X.....P > >>P.....3D.....4H....X > >>P.....5C.....P.....P > >>5H....P......P.....X > >>XX....6C.....X.....6D > >>P.....P......X.....AP > >> > >>*Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and > >>by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss of > >>tempo. > >>The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. > >> > >>Result N/S +500 > > I can see several problems here, all of them concerning east's bidding > > with UI. > > East has UI. And East got off to an incredibly timid start and slowly woke up to what his hand really looked like. I've seen lots of newish players make the same mistake - not knowing exactly which under-25ers were involved it wouldnt surprise me if their experience with freak hands in competitive auctions is limited. > > To me, west's pass of 2NT doubled means that west intends to play there. > > If not, west would give preference to a minor or redouble to show equal > > length. I would assume pass shows equal length, and redouble says "they are in trouble in hearts or spades." Obviously several opinions about what the bidding means here. I wonder how many pairs have any firm agreements. > > I don't really agree. Partnerships who don't have enough confidence te > know whether or not they are playing 2NT for the minors do not have an > agreement that passing the double means they want to play there. I > would allow the pull to one of the minors. > > > Normally I would not allow east to remove 2NTx, and thus rule 2NTx 7 > > down, NS +1,700. > > > > However, if EW could provide system notes documenting that their 2NT > > overcalls are sound by agreement, I might allow east to remove 2NT x to > > 3D. Yikes. I'm sorry, I don't see East passing any number of NT doubled or not as an LA here. > > > But I would never allow removing 4Hx to 5C. > > Neither would I. Removing 2NTX is possible, but removing the clear > penalty double is only based on knowing partner thinks you have about > 12 HCP more than you actually do. Forgive me. I am stunned. East should have overcalled 4NT not 2NT in the first place. Nothing short of putting a gun to my head would make me leave 4HX in on those cards. > > So if I were convinced to allow removing 2NTx, I would rule 4Hx with 3 > > overtricks (on a club leas), NS +890. > > > > East even removed 5Hx, believe it or not! Well, duh. I would believe the redouble too. XX told me that my partner's supposed KJxx in hearts is being finessed into oblivion, as if I couldn't already tell I had zero defense against hearts. > Well, he is consistent, is he not? > > > No matter what I ruled (+1,700 or +890), What would I rule? What do I think would have happened with a correct explanation? NS would have some sort of strong auction, EW would preempt violently. Maybe NS would make it to 6H. Maybe they would make it. Maybe EW would sacrifice. In the ACBL, I can see 980 (6H making), 800 (7DX-4), or a +800/-980 split as possible adjustments. In L12C3 land that is far too generous since many pairs will either fail in 6H guessing the spade wrong or not reach the slam at all. Off the top of my head I would guess 50% 500 25% 800 25% 980. I disagree with the "very heavy PP" idea... you have to look pretty hard to find use of UI in this case. Passing is completely out of the question for East until we are to the level of 5H at least. You'd have a hard time convincing me that passing 5HXX would be a popular action. That means that I can't point to ANY of East's bids and accuse him of taking advantage of UI. The only place I see potential for damage is if fearing East's supposed strength kept NS from find a slam (AND you think that NS were going to make it.) The more I think about it, the more plausible Score Stands is looking to me, to be honest. Awarding 800 or 980 feels a bit heavyhanded. GRB From cornelus@ajrak.com Wed Feb 2 03:29:58 2005 From: cornelus@ajrak.com (Darryl Kemp) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:29:58 -0800 Subject: [blml] Hot ones want some hot lovin.,.,,bee decedent Message-ID: What's going on. Tired of searching for some hot action? Trying to find a date? Hoping to find sex? Then you're in the correct spot. Desperate milfs want someone to bang them. Take care. http://txjh.pardhard.com/gab/dhw3 _____________________________________________________________________ Jake arrack decorate usa resultant kermit kieffer. Weldon military. no thx www.lardtard.com/tact/ From blml@blakjak.com Wed Feb 2 02:55:19 2005 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 02:55:19 +0000 Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction In-Reply-To: References: <41FF84A6.9010801@hdw.be> Message-ID: Gordon Bower wrote > > >> Skjaran, Harald wrote: >> >> >>How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? >> >> >> >>N/S Vun Dealer N >> >> >> >>....A32 >> >>....AQ9862 >> >>....3 >> >>....Q84 >> >>976......Q8 >> >>10753 >> >>AJ2......Q107654 >> >>J32......K10765 >> >>....KJ1054 >> >>....KJ4 >> >>....K98 >> >>....A9 >> >> >> >>N.....E......S.....W >> >>1H....2NT*...X.....P >> >>P.....3D.....4H....X >> >>P.....5C.....P.....P >> >>5H....P......P.....X >> >>XX....6C.....X.....6D >> >>P.....P......X.....AP >> >> >> >>*Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and >> >>by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss of >> >>tempo. >> >>The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. >> >> >> >>Result N/S +500 > >> > I can see several problems here, all of them concerning east's bidding >> > with UI. >> > [s] >> I don't really agree. Partnerships who don't have enough confidence te >> know whether or not they are playing 2NT for the minors do not have an >> agreement that passing the double means they want to play there. I >> would allow the pull to one of the minors. >> >> > Normally I would not allow east to remove 2NTx, and thus rule 2NTx 7 >> > down, NS +1,700. >> > >> > However, if EW could provide system notes documenting that their 2NT >> > overcalls are sound by agreement, I might allow east to remove 2NT x to >> > 3D. > >Yikes. I'm sorry, I don't see East passing any number of NT doubled or not >as an LA here. You have a normal hand with a void in the opponents' suit. Partner doubles, no doubt with several trump tricks. Why on earth would you take it out? Either you believe partner to be a complete idiot, or 4Hx is going at least two off - or you are using UI. >> >> > But I would never allow removing 4Hx to 5C. >> >> Neither would I. Removing 2NTX is possible, but removing the clear >> penalty double is only based on knowing partner thinks you have about >> 12 HCP more than you actually do. > >Forgive me. I am stunned. East should have overcalled 4NT not 2NT in the >first place. Nothing short of putting a gun to my head would make me leave >4HX in on those cards. So you prefer to lose 8 imps to gaining 8 imps - or do you not trust partner? >> > So if I were convinced to allow removing 2NTx, I would rule 4Hx with 3 >> > overtricks (on a club leas), NS +890. >> > >> > East even removed 5Hx, believe it or not! > >Well, duh. I would believe the redouble too. XX told me that my partner's >supposed KJxx in hearts is being finessed into oblivion, as if I couldn't >already tell I had zero defense against hearts. You have shown a big distributional hand, and partner has produced an idiotic double with KJxx - yeah, right - and you and only you know that KJxx is not good enough. Look, Gordon, bridge is a partnership game. When you have exactly what you have shown, and partner doubles for penalties, whether it is redoubled or not, you pass. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Feb 2 08:29:49 2005 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:29:49 +0100 Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction In-Reply-To: References: <41FF84A6.9010801@hdw.be> Message-ID: <42008F7D.7050000@hdw.be> David Stevenson wrote: (and I agree with him) > Gordon Bower wrote > (and I don't agree with him - at least not completely) >> >>>Skjaran, Harald wrote: >>> >>> >> >>Yikes. I'm sorry, I don't see East passing any number of NT doubled or not >>as an LA here. > That one we all agree about, by now. (I think) Yes, Harald? > > You have a normal hand with a void in the opponents' suit. Partner > doubles, no doubt with several trump tricks. Why on earth would you > take it out? Either you believe partner to be a complete idiot, or 4Hx > is going at least two off - or you are using UI. > Even David agrees with the paragraph above - his reaction is wrongly placed. It should be one further down (right, David?) > >>>>But I would never allow removing 4Hx to 5C. >>> >>>Neither would I. Removing 2NTX is possible, but removing the clear >>>penalty double is only based on knowing partner thinks you have about >>>12 HCP more than you actually do. >> >>Forgive me. I am stunned. East should have overcalled 4NT not 2NT in the >>first place. Nothing short of putting a gun to my head would make me leave >>4HX in on those cards. > Which is where David's comment ought to be. Gordon is right in saying that no sane player should leave 4HX in. However, that is not the right question. The right question is whether this junior (who incidentally only bid 2NT, not the 4NT you think he should have) would, without UI, realize that he should take 4HX out. IMO (and that of David's and many other) passing 4HX is a LA. That's what matters. > > So you prefer to lose 8 imps to gaining 8 imps - or do you not trust > partner? > > >>>>So if I were convinced to allow removing 2NTx, I would rule 4Hx with 3 >>>>overtricks (on a club leas), NS +890. >>>> >>>>East even removed 5Hx, believe it or not! >> >>Well, duh. I would believe the redouble too. XX told me that my partner's >>supposed KJxx in hearts is being finessed into oblivion, as if I couldn't >>already tell I had zero defense against hearts. > > > You have shown a big distributional hand, and partner has produced an > idiotic double with KJxx - yeah, right - and you and only you know that > KJxx is not good enough. > > Look, Gordon, bridge is a partnership game. When you have exactly > what you have shown, and partner doubles for penalties, whether it is > redoubled or not, you pass. > And bridge is a game of paying for your mistakes. If partner tells you he did not understand your previous bid, then you take your medicine and pass a making doubled contract. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date: 27/01/2005 From ziffbridge@t-online.de Wed Feb 2 09:41:29 2005 From: ziffbridge@t-online.de (Matthias Berghaus) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:41:29 +0100 Subject: SV: [blml] Re: Junior Auction In-Reply-To: <42008F7D.7050000@hdw.be> References: <41FF84A6.9010801@hdw.be> <42008F7D.7050000@hdw.be> Message-ID: <4200A049.8080609@t-online.de> Hi folks, Herman De Wael wrote: > David Stevenson wrote: > > (and I agree with him) > so do I. >> Gordon Bower wrote > >>> Yikes. I'm sorry, I don't see East passing any number of NT doubled >>> or not >>> as an LA here. >> > That one we all agree about, by now. (I think) Yes, Harald? > That depends on our agreements, but it`s pretty unlikely, agreed. >>>>> But I would never allow removing 4Hx to 5C. >>>> >>>> >>>> Neither would I. Removing 2NTX is possible, but removing the clear >>>> penalty double is only based on knowing partner thinks you have about >>>> 12 HCP more than you actually do. >>> >>> >>> Forgive me. I am stunned. East should have overcalled 4NT not 2NT in >>> the >>> first place. Nothing short of putting a gun to my head would make me >>> leave >>> 4HX in on those cards. >> >> > > Which is where David's comment ought to be. > Gordon is right in saying that no sane player should leave 4HX in. Is that so? Let`s see what has happened. We bid 2NT for the minors, removed 2NTX to 3D, showing longer diamonds or a much better suit. Looks like a pretty good description of our hand. Now partner doubles 4H. Gordon`s and Hermann`s partner seem to be madmen who double only with finessible holdings in front of the long suit. My partner doubles on QJ1098 and a trick on the side (or more, in junior bridge). Only an insane player would remove that double, losing some telephone number instead of scoring plus. But chances are that partner plays us for 3 or four tricks, so I had better play my partner for a madman. This is bidding on UI, isn`t it? > However, that is not the right question. The right question is whether > this junior (who incidentally only bid 2NT, not the 4NT you think he > should have) would, without UI, realize that he should take 4HX out. If you open 3S on an 8-carder, next hand doubles, partner passes, 4H on your right, pass, pass, double from partner. Do you take that out, too? You promised zero defence and about 7 spades, now you have zero defence and 8 spades. I don`t know about you, but I would not dream of removing the double. Now why should anyone ever do so in the auction our juniors got? (except for the UI, of course) Partner will not play us for tricks, so he expects to beat the contract all by himself. We even got a potential trick, that queen of spades looks pretty good to me. > IMO (and that of David's and many other) passing 4HX is a LA. That's > what matters. > David and many others think that there is no LA to passing 4HX, which is quite a different kettle of fish. Removing to 5C (or whatever) is a flagrant foul ( as they say in the NBA), so I would educate or penalize the player in question, depending on experience. >>> >>> Well, duh. I would believe the redouble too. XX told me that my >>> partner's >>> supposed KJxx in hearts is being finessed into oblivion, as if I >>> couldn't >>> already tell I had zero defense against hearts. >> >> >> >> You have shown a big distributional hand, and partner has produced an >> idiotic double with KJxx - yeah, right - and you and only you know that >> KJxx is not good enough. >> >> Look, Gordon, bridge is a partnership game. When you have exactly >> what you have shown, and partner doubles for penalties, whether it is >> redoubled or not, you pass. >> > > And bridge is a game of paying for your mistakes. If partner tells you > he did not understand your previous bid, then you take your medicine > and pass a making doubled contract. > > Let us apply a final test. Partner describes your hand as "probably 6-5, next to no defensive tricks, possibly very short in hearts" (looking at 5 in his own hand and trying to be a nice guy). 5C now? Matthias From Frances.Hinden@Shell.com Wed Feb 2 09:55:09 2005 From: Frances.Hinden@Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:55:09 -0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> David Stevenson wrote >Anne Jones wrote > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > Sorry, Anne, I really could not get my head around it so I have=20 >reformated it - I hope you do not mind. >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >Junior International competition (Under 25s) >Regulations EBL >How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? > >........ A32 ................. N/S Vul >........ AQ9862 .............. Dlr N >........ 3 ................... Imps > VPs >........ Q84 >.. 976 ............ Q8 >.. 10753 .......... -- >.. AJ2 ............ Q107654 >.. J32 ............ K10765 >........ KJ1054 >........ KJ4 >........ K98 ................. No screens >........ A9 .................. Result N/S +500 > >.... W ... N ... E.....S >.... . .. 1H .. 2NT* . X >.... P ... P .. 3D .. 4H >.... X ... P .. 5C ... P >.... P .. 5H ... P ... P >.... X .. XX .. 6C ... X >... 6D ... P ... P ... X >... AP > >*Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is = >told by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss=20 >of tempo. The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. Presumably East thought he had shown a weak minor two-suiter. In=20 which case pass of 4Hx is completely routine, ie it is an LA, and=20 pulling is suggested by the UI from West's answer to the question. I do not expect North to run the club if a club is led. Once he=20 discovers the heart break he is likely to get the spades right - entries = are difficult anyway to get them wrong - so I rule 4Hx +2. But wait!!!!!! The 6C bid is just as bad so why not rule 5Hxx +1? Yes! There is a legal problem which I have run into before: are you = allowed=20 to give an adjustment that includes one illegal bid [5C] because you are = disallowing another [6C]? Certainly you are for the Os. L12C2 does not use the term "had the=20 irregularity not occurred" for the Os, though it does for the NOs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- Thank-you for addresssing this question, which I think is the = interesting part of the problem. I doubt anyone would argue if you rule as 5Hxx +1 but I think the=20 correct legal answer may be: For N/S: 4Hx +2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------- Is it possible South might redouble 4H if it got that far? I might say = probably not, but I saw some junior bidding a couple of weekends ago where far worse hands were = considered a=20 routine redouble. For E/W: 5Hxx +1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------ Sadly I seem to be ploughing a lonely furrow: I still believe strongly = that NS will only=20 make 11 tricks. If North _rises_ on a club lead he will likly only make = 10. I have not yet seen a sound piece of logic as to why declarer will make = 12 or 13 unless it is normal to play the short hand for the queen of spades. From ngqkxjfmopk@telia.com Wed Feb 2 10:45:14 2005 From: ngqkxjfmopk@telia.com (Eileen Melvin) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 08:45:14 -0200 Subject: [blml] Dnot mvoe form yuor hosue Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------27571022770368339 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----199666948399736216" ------199666948399736216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Canuck Prhamayc *****on premediation requisite***** * Lowest Prices * Valor, Xray, Vitality, Supa, Amor, Philosophy, moo!! * Fearful Desire *****on premeditation requisite***** ------199666948399736216 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = ------199666948399736216-- ------27571022770368339 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhswGlAHcAMSH+GlNvZnR3YXJlOiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT2ZmaWNlACH5BAEAAAAALAEAAQCx 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NwQGTW+kgWBBgZeIh0YHjAo3iveFjwoIkNGlXew4UgFVYs7DN2UCcKxETBR5ij9RRhrJeQMTiSEk Kon4Ks8YLPyDJehSEe8CUrCYOZpTkcyIjy/TTW9HSYp3U1OoiBN0GB7Rj9s4cvhnHzyZfVMoMJEn GQUAADs= ------27571022770368339-- From wmevius@hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 10:51:54 2005 From: wmevius@hotmail.com (Willem Mevius) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:51:54 +0000 Subject: [blml] Toil and trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With the correct explanation (ie knowing that opps have a misunderstanding), there's a fair chance South would have passed the double, even while thinking it is take-out. Result: 4Sx -x Willem Mevius wmevius@hotmail.com >From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au >To: blml@rtflb.org >Subject: Re: [blml] Toil and trouble >Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:50:16 +1100 > > > > > > >>Imps > >>Dlr: North > >>Vul: None > >> > >>The bidding has gone: > >> > >>WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH > >>--- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) > >>4S Dble(4) Pass ? > >> > >>(1) 15+ hcp, any shape. > >>(2) Both majors. > >>(3) Artificial game force. > >>(4) Takeout double, but North would > >> bid 4NT with a 5/5 (or better) > >> distribution with both minors. > >> > >>You, South, hold: > >> > >>Q6 > >>AQJ65 > >>J7 > >>T975 > >> > >>What call do you make? > >>What other calls do you consider making? > >Roger Pewick: > > >I see two options for this hand [a] P and [b] 5C, not > >that I would consider [b] on this hand. > > > >Given that X suggests both majors, opposite a minimum > >opener my judgment suggests that this holding is > >unlikely to produce game let alone 4N or 4H. Given > >that opener can be significantly stronger than > >minimum, the probabilities are likely about 10% for > >4N and 5% for 5C [optimistically]. > > > >Supposedly, the last double suggests strongly that > >opener is close to minimum [and even has good spade > >cards (which should not be necessary to defeat 4S > >opposite game values)]. The only sensible action is > >P as this decrepit system, along with the silly S who > >held these cards immediately previous and judged them > >to be worth game, has foisted it upon me. > >Richard Hills: > >The actual deal and actual auction -> > > AT987 > 74 > K86 > AKQ >KJ5432 --- >982 KT3 >943 AQT52 >8 J6432 > Q6 > AQJ65 > J7 > T975 > >WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH >--- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) >4S Dble(4) Pass 5C >Pass Pass Pass > >(1) 15+ hcp, any shape. >(2) Explained as showing both majors, but the partnership > agreement was that it shows both minors. >(3) Artificial game force. >(4) Undiscussed, but in analogous auctions it would be a > takeout double. (North assumed that the analogy was > not relevant; South assumed the opposite.) > >Result: North-South -150. > >In accordance with Law 75D2, the director was summoned at >the end of play. If you were the TD, how would you rule? > > >Best wishes > >Richard Hills >Movie grognard and general guru > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@rtflb.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From anne@baa-lamb.co.uk Wed Feb 2 12:23:27 2005 From: anne@baa-lamb.co.uk (Anne Jones) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:23:27 -0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: <002301c50922$01161690$e8320952@AnnesComputer> I am pleased that contributers have seen this hand to be as interesting as I did. The TD at the table ruled 4HX+1 and neither side appealed so I didn't get my teeth into it. (I was at the event as Chair of Appeals) The points of interest that I saw were a) the Misinformation b) the possible use of UI c) the redouble as being wild and gambling i.e. double shot. a) certainly MI but no damage arose from it. b) 3D - agree not abuse 5D - abuse of UI but didn't damage as opps found sucessful 5HXX which is better score. Law 16 says TD awards an adjusted score "if he considers that an infraction of Law has resulted in damage 6C - certain abuse which damaged N/S.".(I didn't have to consider how many tricks would be made but I think that for N/S I would say 11, and for E/W 12 just to incur the wrath of the match manager who loves unbalancing results) c) Hmmmm. Wild? That's what Juniors are, and XX is what they do (Maybe a case for rewording the code of practice to "except in the case of Juniors" :-) Irrational? No - N/S has been robbed of 4HX+1 at the moment so 5HX needs to be XX to achieve at least an equal score. Gambling? Yes - I think maybe so. N will be aware that the TD is likely to take some action if his side is damaged in this auction. Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinden, Frances SI-PXS" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:55 AM Subject: RE: [blml] Junior auction David Stevenson wrote >Anne Jones wrote > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > Sorry, Anne, I really could not get my head around it so I have >reformated it - I hope you do not mind. >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >Junior International competition (Under 25s) >Regulations EBL >How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? > >........ A32 ................. N/S Vul >........ AQ9862 .............. Dlr N >........ 3 ................... Imps > VPs >........ Q84 >.. 976 ............ Q8 >.. 10753 .......... -- >.. AJ2 ............ Q107654 >.. J32 ............ K10765 >........ KJ1054 >........ KJ4 >........ K98 ................. No screens >........ A9 .................. Result N/S +500 > >.... W ... N ... E.....S >.... . .. 1H .. 2NT* . X >.... P ... P .. 3D .. 4H >.... X ... P .. 5C ... P >.... P .. 5H ... P ... P >.... X .. XX .. 6C ... X >... 6D ... P ... P ... X >... AP > >*Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is >told by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss >of tempo. The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. Presumably East thought he had shown a weak minor two-suiter. In which case pass of 4Hx is completely routine, ie it is an LA, and pulling is suggested by the UI from West's answer to the question. I do not expect North to run the club if a club is led. Once he discovers the heart break he is likely to get the spades right - entries are difficult anyway to get them wrong - so I rule 4Hx +2. But wait!!!!!! The 6C bid is just as bad so why not rule 5Hxx +1? Yes! There is a legal problem which I have run into before: are you allowed to give an adjustment that includes one illegal bid [5C] because you are disallowing another [6C]? Certainly you are for the Os. L12C2 does not use the term "had the irregularity not occurred" for the Os, though it does for the NOs. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank-you for addresssing this question, which I think is the interesting part of the problem. I doubt anyone would argue if you rule as 5Hxx +1 but I think the correct legal answer may be: For N/S: 4Hx +2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is it possible South might redouble 4H if it got that far? I might say probably not, but I saw some junior bidding a couple of weekends ago where far worse hands were considered a routine redouble. For E/W: 5Hxx +1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadly I seem to be ploughing a lonely furrow: I still believe strongly that NS will only make 11 tricks. If North _rises_ on a club lead he will likly only make 10. I have not yet seen a sound piece of logic as to why declarer will make 12 or 13 unless it is normal to play the short hand for the queen of spades. _______________________________________________ blml mailing list blml@rtflb.org http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From blml@blakjak.com Wed Feb 2 13:07:37 2005 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:07:37 +0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction In-Reply-To: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: Hinden, Frances SI-PXS wrote > >David Stevenson wrote >>Anne Jones wrote >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------- >> Sorry, Anne, I really could not get my head around it so I have >>reformated it - I hope you do not mind. >>----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Junior International competition (Under 25s) >>Regulations EBL >>How many problems do you see here? How would you rule? >> >>........ A32 ................. N/S Vul >>........ AQ9862 .............. Dlr N >>........ 3 ................... Imps > VPs >>........ Q84 >>.. 976 ............ Q8 >>.. 10753 .......... -- >>.. AJ2 ............ Q107654 >>.. J32 ............ K10765 >>........ KJ1054 >>........ KJ4 >>........ K98 ................. No screens >>........ A9 .................. Result N/S +500 >> >>.... W ... N ... E.....S >>.... . .. 1H .. 2NT* . X >>.... P ... P .. 3D .. 4H >>.... X ... P .. 5C ... P >>.... P .. 5H ... P ... P >>.... X .. XX .. 6C ... X >>... 6D ... P ... P ... X >>... AP >> >>*Before bidding S asks the meaning of the unalerted 2NT overcall and is >>told by W, "strong and balanced". There are no other questions or loss >>of tempo. The contract was played in 6DX with the loss of 4 tricks. > > Presumably East thought he had shown a weak minor two-suiter. In >which case pass of 4Hx is completely routine, ie it is an LA, and >pulling is suggested by the UI from West's answer to the question. > > I do not expect North to run the club if a club is led. Once he >discovers the heart break he is likely to get the spades right - entries >are difficult anyway to get them wrong - so I rule 4Hx +2. > > But wait!!!!!! > > The 6C bid is just as bad so why not rule 5Hxx +1? Yes! > > There is a legal problem which I have run into before: are you allowed >to give an adjustment that includes one illegal bid [5C] because you are >disallowing another [6C]? > > Certainly you are for the Os. L12C2 does not use the term "had the >irregularity not occurred" for the Os, though it does for the NOs. >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >----------------- >Thank-you for addresssing this question, which I think is the >interesting part of the problem. > > > I doubt anyone would argue if you rule as 5Hxx +1 but I think the >correct legal answer may be: > >For N/S: 4Hx +2 >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >------------ >Is it possible South might redouble 4H if it got that far? I might say >probably not, but I saw >some junior bidding a couple of weekends ago where far worse hands were >considered a >routine redouble. > >For E/W: 5Hxx +1 >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >------------- >Sadly I seem to be ploughing a lonely furrow: I still believe strongly >that NS will only >make 11 tricks. If North _rises_ on a club lead he will likly only make 10. > >I have not yet seen a sound piece of logic as to why declarer will make >12 or 13 unless >it is normal to play the short hand for the queen of spades. On a diamond lead repeated there is only one way to go off in 5H: trumps, S to K, run SJ. Now you are stuffed on a club return. I really do not believe you would jeopardise 5Hxx for overtricks, however likely. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Wed Feb 2 13:11:33 2005 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:11:33 +0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction In-Reply-To: <002301c50922$01161690$e8320952@AnnesComputer> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> <002301c50922$01161690$e8320952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: Anne Jones wrote >I am pleased that contributers have seen this hand to be as interesting >as I did. > >The TD at the table ruled 4HX+1 and neither side appealed so I didn't >get my teeth into it. (I was at the event as Chair of Appeals) > >The points of interest that I saw were >a) the Misinformation >b) the possible use of UI >c) the redouble as being wild and gambling i.e. double shot. > >a) certainly MI but no damage arose from it. > >b) 3D - agree not abuse > 5D - abuse of UI but didn't damage as opps found sucessful 5HXX >which is better score. Law 16 says TD awards an adjusted score "if he >considers that an infraction of Law has resulted in damage Yes, but remember that 6C was illegal, so you adjust, and now you consider the adjustment without illegal calls. > 6C - certain abuse which damaged N/S.".(I didn't have to consider >how many tricks would be made but I think that for N/S I would say 11, >and for E/W 12 just to incur the wrath of the match manager who loves >unbalancing results) > >c) Hmmmm. >Wild? That's what Juniors are, and XX is what they do (Maybe a case for >rewording the code of practice to "except in the case of Juniors" :-) >Irrational? No - N/S has been robbed of 4HX+1 at the moment so 5HX >needs to be XX to achieve at least an equal score. >Gambling? Yes - I think maybe so. N will be aware that the TD is likely >to take some action if his side is damaged in this auction. I do not understand this. WoG applies when a player takes an action unlikely to gain because he is expecting a ruling if it doe snot gain. Here he just has a normal redouble and WoG does not come into it. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Wed Feb 2 13:29:18 2005 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:29:18 -0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> <002301c50922$01161690$e8320952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <001801c5092b$338dc560$e8320952@AnnesComputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Stevenson" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Junior auction > Anne Jones wrote >>I am pleased that contributers have seen this hand to be as interesting as >>I did. >> >>The TD at the table ruled 4HX+1 and neither side appealed so I didn't get >>my teeth into it. (I was at the event as Chair of Appeals) >> >>The points of interest that I saw were >>a) the Misinformation >>b) the possible use of UI >>c) the redouble as being wild and gambling i.e. double shot. >> >>a) certainly MI but no damage arose from it. >> >>b) 3D - agree not abuse >> 5D - abuse of UI but didn't damage as opps found sucessful 5HXX which >> is better score. Law 16 says TD awards an adjusted score "if he considers >> that an infraction of Law has resulted in damage > > Yes, but remember that 6C was illegal, so you adjust, and now you > consider the adjustment without illegal calls. > >> 6C - certain abuse which damaged N/S.".(I didn't have to consider how >> many tricks would be made but I think that for N/S I would say 11, and >> for E/W 12 just to incur the wrath of the match manager who loves >> unbalancing results) >> >>c) Hmmmm. >>Wild? That's what Juniors are, and XX is what they do (Maybe a case for >>rewording the code of practice to "except in the case of Juniors" :-) >>Irrational? No - N/S has been robbed of 4HX+1 at the moment so 5HX needs >>to be XX to achieve at least an equal score. >>Gambling? Yes - I think maybe so. N will be aware that the TD is likely to >>take some action if his side is damaged in this auction. > > I do not understand this. WoG applies when a player takes an action > unlikely to gain because he is expecting a ruling if it doe snot gain. > Here he just has a normal redouble and WoG does not come into it. > If 4H had not been doubled don't you think N would settle for 5HX? Do you think he really expects to make it? He *would* likely make it and that is fortuitous in my opinion. I think it's too close to penalise, but I do think there is an element of WoG here. L&EC #3 didn't think so either so I would lose the argument !! Anne > -- > David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ > Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ > ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= > Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From B.Schelen@IAE.NL Wed Feb 2 12:48:08 2005 From: B.Schelen@IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:48:08 +0100 Subject: [blml] Hawk or Pigeon? References: <000c01c506ce$10295120$d2063dd4@c6l8v1> Message-ID: <003701c5092b$ae96f6a0$2a063dd4@c6l8v1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John (MadDog) Probst" To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Hawk or Pigeon? > In article <000c01c506ce$10295120$d2063dd4@c6l8v1>, Ben Schelen > writes > >The trump suit is hearts. > > > > Q 10 > > - > > - > > A Q 5 2 > > > > ? ? > > > > - > > 7 5 > > A J 4 2 > > - > > > >North is dummy and has the lead; the spades are winners. > >South as declarer, shows his cards and says nothing more than: " I discard > >my hearts loosers on the spades." > > > >Question: Is Law46B applicable? Is it a slip of the tongue? > >(exept when declarer's different intention is incontrovertible. > > I would so rule (if he can convince me). The hearts are NOT losers so > the claim statement is probably a slip of the tongue. > > Up to now just one reaction, so I take it that everybody agrees with you. But declarer did not say anything about the club ace and he has still the diamond Jack in his hand as a loser. The director cannot look in the mind of declarer who is now awake. Is it foolish to suppose that declarer at the very moment thought that diamonds was the trump suit? (at a club in the evening of a working day) Yes/no. Ben From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Feb 2 14:49:33 2005 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:49:33 +0100 Subject: [blml] Junior auction In-Reply-To: <002301c50922$01161690$e8320952@AnnesComputer> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> <002301c50922$01161690$e8320952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <4200E87D.3010107@hdw.be> Hello Anne, Anne Jones wrote: > I am pleased that contributers have seen this hand to be as interesting > as I did. > indeed we did > The TD at the table ruled 4HX+1 and neither side appealed so I didn't > get my teeth into it. (I was at the event as Chair of Appeals) > You raise a very interesting point down there: > The points of interest that I saw were > a) the Misinformation > b) the possible use of UI > c) the redouble as being wild and gambling i.e. double shot. > > a) certainly MI but no damage arose from it. > agreed > b) 3D - agree not abuse yes > 5D - abuse of UI but didn't damage as opps found sucessful 5HXX > which is better score. Law 16 says TD awards an adjusted score "if he > considers that an infraction of Law has resulted in damage This is the interesting twist. We have stated that if we don't consider 5D acceptable, then we should rule back to 4HX, but that is not true, since 5HXX was in fact reached at the table and this produces a better result. All those that think we should go back to 4H even for some part, please reconsider. 5D did not do damage, 6C did! > 6C - certain abuse which damaged N/S.".(I didn't have to consider > how many tricks would be made but I think that for N/S I would say 11, > and for E/W 12 just to incur the wrath of the match manager who loves > unbalancing results) > So 5HXX it is. But I don't think we need split scores. A 12C3 with one score based on a percentage of 11 and 12 tricks should do. > c) Hmmmm. let's go back here: > c) the redouble as being wild and gambling i.e. double shot. There was only one redouble, by the NOs. It was in a contract being either exactly made or with an overtrick (or even two). How can there ever be a consideration about wild or gambling? If they are damaged by the 5D bid because 4H makes only 10 tricks, then the damage has been done, and the redouble only increases the damage, but does not cause it. You might say that they ahd a good result in 5HX, and their redouble caused opponents to bid 6C. But since we are taking away that 6C, where does the WGoI come in? > Wild? That's what Juniors are, and XX is what they do (Maybe a case for > rewording the code of practice to "except in the case of Juniors" :-) So it's not wild, if it's juniors. No need to go around saying that juniors are allowed to do wild things. Some things just aren't considered wild for them. > Irrational? No - N/S has been robbed of 4HX+1 at the moment so 5HX needs > to be XX to achieve at least an equal score. Good point. > Gambling? Yes - I think maybe so. N will be aware that the TD is likely > to take some action if his side is damaged in this auction. > And he should be aware that he should not expect redress if it turns out there are 10 tricks, and -200 si a good score but -400 not. That should not deter him from gambling that he gets his contract. > Anne > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date: 27/01/2005 From svenpran@online.no Wed Feb 2 15:09:37 2005 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:09:37 +0100 Subject: [blml] Junior auction In-Reply-To: <4200E87D.3010107@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000001c50939$36746230$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Herman De Wael ............... > There was only one redouble, by the NOs. It was in a contract being > either exactly made or with an overtrick (or even two). How can there > ever be a consideration about wild or gambling? If they are damaged by > the 5D bid because 4H makes only 10 tricks, then the damage has been > done, and the redouble only increases the damage, but does not cause = it. And _if_ the Director (or subsequently the AC) considers this redouble = to be a double shot then (and only then) the finally adjusted score should compensate for the damage caused by the 5D bid but not for the increased damage resulting from the redouble if 5H doesn't make. (Exactly the same principle that if 5H is set by poor play then you don't get redress for = the damage cause by your own play). > You might say that they ahd a good result in 5HX, and their redouble > caused opponents to bid 6C. But since we are taking away that 6C, > where does the WGoI come in? That is a matter of judgement applied to the situation when the redouble = was made. >=20 > > Wild? That's what Juniors are, and XX is what they do (Maybe a case = for > > rewording the code of practice to "except in the case of Juniors" = :-) >=20 > So it's not wild, if it's juniors. No need to go around saying that > juniors are allowed to do wild things. Some things just aren't > considered wild for them. Concentrate on the question of whether you see a double shot attempt; = that might be easier. >=20 > > Irrational? No - N/S has been robbed of 4HX+1 at the moment so 5HX = needs > > to be XX to achieve at least an equal score. >=20 > Good point. Indeed. (If 5H makes!) >=20 > > Gambling? Yes - I think maybe so. N will be aware that the TD is = likely > > to take some action if his side is damaged in this auction. > > >=20 > And he should be aware that he should not expect redress if it turns > out there are 10 tricks, and -200 si a good score but -400 not. > That should not deter him from gambling that he gets his contract. I believe this would be a typical case for split scores. Regards Sven From blml@blakjak.com Wed Feb 2 16:11:29 2005 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:11:29 +0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction In-Reply-To: <4200E87D.3010107@hdw.be> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> <002301c50922$01161690$e8320952@AnnesComputer> <4200E87D.3010107@hdw.be> Message-ID: <0uOCngLxuPACFwGr@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Herman De Wael wrote >Hello Anne, >> 5D - abuse of UI but didn't damage as opps found sucessful 5HXX >>which is better score. Law 16 says TD awards an adjusted score "if he >>considers that an infraction of Law has resulted in damage > >This is the interesting twist. >We have stated that if we don't consider 5D acceptable, then we should >rule back to 4HX, but that is not true, since 5HXX was in fact reached >at the table and this produces a better result. All those that think we >should go back to 4H even for some part, please reconsider. 5D did not >do damage, 6C did! Re-read the Law. The UI Law tells you whether to adjust [when there is damage, for example] but L12C tells you how to adjust. So, even though 5C did not cause damage that does not mean we do not consider 4Hx. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Wed Feb 2 09:35:19 2005 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:35:19 -0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction References: <000501c50847$46bbcc20$e8320952@AnnesComputer> <7r9RWEDCo4$BFwCJ@blakjak.demon.co.uk> <8YPg64EJQ6$BFwgQ@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000801c50956$3838a140$b89b87d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] **************************** "Of good and evil much they argued then, Of happiness and final misery, Passion and apathy, and glory and shame, Vain wisdom all, and false philosophy." ['Paradise Lost'] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Stevenson" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Junior auction > > > But wait!!!!!! > > The 6C bid is just as bad so why not > rule 5Hxx +1? Yes! > > There is a legal problem which I have run > into before: are you allowed to give an adjustment > that includes one illegal bid [5C] because you are > disallowing another [6C]? > > Certainly you are for the Os. L12C2 does not > use the term "had the irregularity not occurred" for > the Os, though it does for the NOs. > > I doubt anyone would argue if you rule as > 5Hxx +1 but I think the correct legal answer may > be: > > For N/S: 4Hx +2 > > For E/W: 5Hxx +1 > +=+ IMO David has the law right here, although the phrase 'correct legal answer' is injudicious. David is saying that it is a legal ruling and in his opinion the one most desirable. Other adjustments could be equally 'correct'. Another route to inclusion of 5HXX+1 in the calculation would be to cancel the 5C bid and make a 'Reveley'* ruling, which is precluded by the policies of some organizations but is lawful and permitted by the practice of the WBF Appeals Committee (adding nothing to the law on the subject and leaving its ACs free to judge their preferred solutions). ~ Grattan ~ +=+ {* taking into account the fact that some of the time 5C would be bid in an untainted auction] From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Wed Feb 2 21:19:06 2005 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:19:06 -0000 Subject: [blml] Junior auction References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181748A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> <002301c50922$01161690$e8320952@AnnesComputer> <4200E87D.3010107@hdw.be> Message-ID: <001c01c5096c$d569dd10$e8320952@AnnesComputer> By the time 4HX got to North the misunderstanding that E/W were having was surely evident. N did not XX ! If he considers that 4HX is so certainly making that he can XX 5HX I wonder what the rationale is. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman De Wael" To: "blml" Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Junior auction > Hello Anne, > > Anne Jones wrote: > >> I am pleased that contributers have seen this hand to be as interesting >> as I did. >> > > indeed we did > >> The TD at the table ruled 4HX+1 and neither side appealed so I didn't get >> my teeth into it. (I was at the event as Chair of Appeals) >> > > You raise a very interesting point down there: > >> The points of interest that I saw were >> a) the Misinformation >> b) the possible use of UI >> c) the redouble as being wild and gambling i.e. double shot. >> >> a) certainly MI but no damage arose from it. >> > > agreed > >> b) 3D - agree not abuse > > yes > >> 5D - abuse of UI but didn't damage as opps found sucessful 5HXX which >> is better score. Law 16 says TD awards an adjusted score "if he considers >> that an infraction of Law has resulted in damage > > This is the interesting twist. > We have stated that if we don't consider 5D acceptable, then we should > rule back to 4HX, but that is not true, since 5HXX was in fact reached at > the table and this produces a better result. All those that think we > should go back to 4H even for some part, please reconsider. 5D did not do > damage, 6C did! > >> 6C - certain abuse which damaged N/S.".(I didn't have to consider how >> many tricks would be made but I think that for N/S I would say 11, and >> for E/W 12 just to incur the wrath of the match manager who loves >> unbalancing results) >> > > So 5HXX it is. But I don't think we need split scores. A 12C3 with one > score based on a percentage of 11 and 12 tricks should do. > >> c) Hmmmm. > let's go back here: > > c) the redouble as being wild and gambling i.e. double shot. > > There was only one redouble, by the NOs. It was in a contract being either > exactly made or with an overtrick (or even two). How can there ever be a > consideration about wild or gambling? If they are damaged by the 5D bid > because 4H makes only 10 tricks, then the damage has been done, and the > redouble only increases the damage, but does not cause it. > You might say that they ahd a good result in 5HX, and their redouble > caused opponents to bid 6C. But since we are taking away that 6C, where > does the WGoI come in? > >> Wild? That's what Juniors are, and XX is what they do (Maybe a case for >> rewording the code of practice to "except in the case of Juniors" :-) > > So it's not wild, if it's juniors. No need to go around saying that > juniors are allowed to do wild things. Some things just aren't considered > wild for them. > >> Irrational? No - N/S has been robbed of 4HX+1 at the moment so 5HX needs >> to be XX to achieve at least an equal score. > > Good point. > >> Gambling? Yes - I think maybe so. N will be aware that the TD is likely >> to take some action if his side is damaged in this auction. >> > > And he should be aware that he should not expect redress if it turns out > there are 10 tricks, and -200 si a good score but -400 not. > That should not deter him from gambling that he gets his contract. > >> Anne >> > > -- > Herman DE WAEL > Antwerpen Belgium > http://www.hdw.be > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date: 27/01/2005 > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Wed Feb 2 22:12:04 2005 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:12:04 +1100 Subject: [blml] Toil and trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Willem Mevius asserted: >With the correct explanation (ie knowing that opps have a >misunderstanding), there's a fair chance South would have >passed the double, even while thinking it is take-out. > >Result: 4Sx -x Richard Hills fence-sits: This is the crux of the issue; *if* there had been a correct explanation, *would* South have known that the opponents have had a misunderstanding? Suppose that a hypothetical (but legal) auction had occurred: WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH --- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) 4S(4) Dble(5) Pass ? (1) 15+ hcp, any shape. (2) Partnership agreement is both minors, and West also explains it as both minors. (3) Artificial game force. (4) Immediately after giving the correct explanation, West has temporary amnesia, thinks East holds both majors, so jumps to 4S. (5) Takeout double. With South holding: Q6 AQJ65 J7 T975 it seems to me that, on this hypothetical (but legal) auction, South has an automatic call of 5H. This was the reasoning of the Chief Director in his adjustment of the table score from 5C -150 to 5H -100. However, it seems to me that the Chief Director's reasoning possibly suffers from a subtle logical flaw. It seems to me that this possible subtle logical flaw is [to be continued in the thread The Return of the King] Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu Wed Feb 2 23:59:42 2005 From: grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:59:42 -0500 Subject: [blml] Junior auction In-Reply-To: <000501c50847$46bbcc20$e8320952@AnnesComputer> References: <000501c50847$46bbcc20$e8320952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050202184927.01cbbe48@mail.comcast.net> In this case, there were two infractions by East: the bids of 5C and 6C. If East had not bid 6C, N-S would have played in 5Hxx, making 11 tricks for +1200. Therefore, after East bid 6C, it is unfair for N-S to get any less than +1200, independent of what happened before that infraction. Adjusting to 4Hx making 11 tricks for +990 caused E-W to benefit and N-S to suffer from East's infraction. I don't see any need to consider whether North's redouble was irrational, wild, or gambling; if it was, he could have lost his adjustment for the 5C call, but not his adjustment for any subsequent action. For example, if East had passed (as required by Law), and West, who had no UI, had guessed what had happened and run to 6D, N-S could lose their adjustment. From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Thu Feb 3 00:50:54 2005 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:50:54 +1100 Subject: [blml] 100% of Nothing In-Reply-To: <7D44CD19-7346-11D9-BE82-0030656F6826@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Richard Hills (earlier posting): [snip] >>(4) *If* a sloooow forcing pass has jogged a snoozy >> partner's memory, *then* violating system is a >> Law 16 non-suggested logical alternative. Ed Reppert: >Hm. That's a big if. It requires us to decide that it >*did* jog his memory. I don't like that. I was going >to suggest law 73C, but it suffers from the same >problem. I guess my problem is I don't like laws that >in effect say "you might have violated the law, so >we're going to assume you did". :-( Richard Hills (current posting): In my opinion, the crucial TD decision would not be at the later point of applying Law 16, but at the earlier point of a Law 85 assessment of a particular player's ability to remember their partnership agreements. Richard Hills (earlier posting): >>Note a parallel posting on this thread, in which Sami >>Kehela would bid a (natural) 4NT if he could achieve >>the call in tempo, but would ethically refuse to bid >>a sloooow (natural) 4NT, since the slowness would jog >>a snoozy partner's memory that this 4NT call was a >>special exception to the normal default of Blackwood. Ed Reppert: >I have no problem with a player doing something >designed to avoid giving his partner an ethical >problem, but I don't think the law requires it. Richard Hills (current posting): Let us consider two hypothetical instances -> (a) Kehela bids his (natural) 4NT in tempo. (b) Kehela knows that - unprompted - his partner will remember that 4NT is natural 60% of the time. Result: Kehela reaches the par contract of 4NT 60% of the time, but has a major Blackwood debacle 40% of the time. (x) Kehela cannot bid in tempo (y) Kehela knows that - prompted by UI - his partner's ability to remember that 4NT is natural will increase from 60% of the time to 100% of the time. (z) Kehela therefore passes partner's forcing 4D. Result: By passing a forcing 4D, Kehela has a minor debacle. But, since bidding a sloooow (natural) 4NT would require the TD to adjust the score, pursuant to Law 16, to the pre-UI 40% debacle, Kehela's active ethics are rewarded with a lesser debacle. Note: In my opinion, in case (y), *if* a (hypothetical) Kehela did bid a sloooow (natural) 4NT, *then* Kehela's partner would be obliged by Law 73C to assume that 4NT was Blackwood, so then kamikaze at the five-level with a response to Blackwood. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Thu Feb 3 01:25:42 2005 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:25:42 +1100 Subject: [blml] Two illegal bids (was Junior) In-Reply-To: <8YPg64EJQ6$BFwgQ@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: David Stevenson: [snip] >There is a legal problem which I have run into before: are you allowed >to give an adjustment that includes one illegal bid [5C] because you >are disallowing another [6C]? > >Certainly you are for the Os. L12C2 does not use the term "had the >irregularity not occurred" for the Os, though it does for the NOs. [snip] Richard Hills: An earlier thread discussed a similar problem, the correct Law 64C ruling after two revokes. No agreement was reached on whether it was permissible (if of benefit to the NOS) to Law 64C cancel just one of the two revokes, while leaving the remaining revoke unaffected by any Law 64C adjustment. Likewise, I have always been of the opinion that perpetrating a CPU pseudo-psyche and then fielding a CPU pseudo-psyche were two separate infractions. Therefore, as a casebook commentator for the 2003 WBU Casebook, I suggested that the Case 1 "Red" CPU pseudo-psyche could be rectified by an assumed non-fielding and a consequential adjustment of -1000 in a redoubled contract for the offending side. I note, however, that the WBU (and EBU) L&ECs differ with me on this *particular* issue of the interpretation of fielding of CPUs. But the WBU/EBU L&ECs may have opinions on the *general* issue of partial rectification of multiple irregularities, when: (a) zero rectification of multiple irregularities damages the NOS, and (b) full rectification of multiple irregularities benefits the NOS, but (c) partial rectification of multiple irregularities benefits the NOS much more than full rectification does. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From noebggqjaufz@swbell.net Thu Feb 3 05:22:03 2005 From: noebggqjaufz@swbell.net (Herschel Krause) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 11:22:03 +0600 Subject: [blml] Sup Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------65582586176531043215 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----374634934062371" ------374634934062371 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Canuck Prhamayc *****on premediation requisite***** * Lowest Prices * Valor, Xray, Vitality, Supa, Amor, Philosophy, moo!! * Fearful Desire *****on premeditation requisite***** ------374634934062371 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = ------374634934062371-- ------65582586176531043215 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhswGlAHcAMSH+GlNvZnR3YXJlOiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT2ZmaWNlACH5BAEAAAAALAEAAQCx 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In-Reply-To: <003701c5092b$ae96f6a0$2a063dd4@c6l8v1> References: <000c01c506ce$10295120$d2063dd4@c6l8v1> <003701c5092b$ae96f6a0$2a063dd4@c6l8v1> Message-ID: <2rl8GhAnumACFwXt@asimere.com> In article <003701c5092b$ae96f6a0$2a063dd4@c6l8v1>, Ben Schelen writes > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John (MadDog) Probst" >To: >Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:39 PM >Subject: Re: [blml] Hawk or Pigeon? > > >> In article <000c01c506ce$10295120$d2063dd4@c6l8v1>, Ben Schelen >> writes >> >The trump suit is hearts. >> > >> > Q 10 >> > - >> > - >> > A Q 5 2 >> > >> > ? ? >> > >> > - >> > 7 5 >> > A J 4 2 >> > - >> > >> >North is dummy and has the lead; the spades are winners. >> >South as declarer, shows his cards and says nothing more than: " I >discard >> >my hearts loosers on the spades." >> > >> >Question: Is Law46B applicable? Is it a slip of the tongue? >> >(exept when declarer's different intention is incontrovertible. >> >> I would so rule (if he can convince me). The hearts are NOT losers so >> the claim statement is probably a slip of the tongue. As I said I need to be convinced. I can't go further than that. if the player had decided D were trumps I'd expect him to tell me. (I'd certainly have asked him). >> >> >Up to now just one reaction, so I take it that everybody agrees with you. > >But declarer did not say anything about the club ace and he has still the >diamond Jack in his hand as a loser. >The director cannot look in the mind of declarer who is now awake. >Is it foolish to suppose that declarer at the very moment thought that >diamonds was the trump suit? (at a club in the evening of a working day) > >Yes/no. > >Ben > > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@rtflb.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Thu Feb 3 19:12:26 2005 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:12:26 -0500 Subject: [blml] 100% of Nothing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8AA26A94-7617-11D9-B887-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Feb 2, 2005, at 19:50 US/Eastern, richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > Let us consider two hypothetical instances -> > > (a) Kehela bids his (natural) 4NT in tempo. > (b) Kehela knows that - unprompted - his partner will > remember that 4NT is natural 60% of the time. My head hurts. I'm gonna have to think about this later. :-) From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Fri Feb 4 05:01:52 2005 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:01:52 +1100 Subject: [blml] Turning the cube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Imps Dlr: South Vul: None The bidding has gone: WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH --- --- --- Pass 1D 1NT(1) 2S 3NT Dble 4C(2) Pass Pass Dble Pass Pass ? (1) 15-18. Theoretically balanced and theoretically a diamond stopper. Implicit pragmatic partnership agreement that otherwise might be the case. (Implicit pragmatic partnership agreement was pre- alerted to the opponents at the start of the match.) (2) Implicit pragmatic partnership agreement that wimpiness shows 6 (maybe 7 in a 7222 shape) clubs and a diaphanous diamond "stopper". You, South, hold: KQ2 Q74 J972 J94 What call do you make? What other call do you consider making? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From Guthrie@ntlworld.com Fri Feb 4 07:16:23 2005 From: Guthrie@ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:16:23 -0000 Subject: [blml] Turning the cube References: Message-ID: <000801c50a89$6ef75f30$169868d5@James> [Richard James Hills] > Imps South/None: KQ2 Q74 J972 J94 > WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH > 1D 1NT(1) 2S 3NT > Dble 4C(2) Pass Pass > Dble Pass Pass ? > (1) 15-18. Theoretically balanced and > theoretically a diamond stopper. > Implicit pragmatic partnership > agreement that otherwise might be > the case. (Implicit pragmatic > partnership agreement was pre- > alerted to the opponents at the > start of the match.) > (2) Implicit pragmatic partnership > agreement that wimpiness shows 6 > (maybe 7 in a 7222 shape) clubs > and a diaphanous diamond "stopper". [Nigel] IMO P=10 4N (Natural)=7 XX=1 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 01/02/2005 From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Fri Feb 4 09:08:55 2005 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:08:55 -0000 Subject: [blml] 100% of Nothing References: Message-ID: <000901c50a99$3ad7ea70$599e4c51@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] **************************** "Of good and evil much they argued then, Of happiness and final misery, Passion and apathy, and glory and shame, Vain wisdom all, and false philosophy." ['Paradise Lost'] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [blml] 100% of Nothing > > Ed Reppert: > > >Hm. That's a big if. It requires us to decide that it > >*did* jog his memory. I don't like that. I was going > >to suggest law 73C, but it suffers from the same > >problem. I guess my problem is I don't like laws that > >in effect say "you might have violated the law, so > >we're going to assume you did". :-( > +=+ The standard is not 'beyond reasonable doubt' but 'balance of probabilities'. +=+ > > Richard Hills (earlier posting): > > >>Note a parallel posting on this thread, in which Sami > >>Kehela would bid a (natural) 4NT if he could achieve > >>the call in tempo, but would ethically refuse to bid > >>a sloooow (natural) 4NT, since the slowness would jog > >>a snoozy partner's memory that this 4NT call was a > >>special exception to the normal default of Blackwood. > +=+ I would have wondered whether anyone with whom Kehela might play would lean on a breach of tempo by Sami in selecting an action. ~ G ~ +=+ From iuascinqhz@lkh-rottenmann.at Fri Feb 4 10:15:19 2005 From: iuascinqhz@lkh-rottenmann.at (Simon Juarez) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:15:19 -0100 Subject: [blml] don`t be an asshole Berta In-Reply-To: <24531128143048.B6029@bowstring.doit.wisc.edu> References: <29730224173406.A16360@stuart.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <26631129233551.K36421@crone.noc.ntua.gr> Offshore pharm wish you all best in New Year! 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Please click below and check out our offer. http://brainstorm.epicoff3rs.com/?wid=100069 fontainebleau benjamin choreograph hydro croquet irremovable thanksgiving tiptoe doria macro giuliano polis muskellunge incinerate stern carolingian tenderfoot impregnate mulct brig caution conjoin comprehensive watertown affirmation globulin custodian complain dianne panicked lakehurst predecessor silicone boyd politico clare haines peril blown commendation concierge echidna hadley animal brassiere brennan clubhouse aft batt slav energetic furman megavolt libretto http://dart.epicoff3rs.com/nomore.html From bnsge@united.com Fri Feb 4 10:39:36 2005 From: bnsge@united.com (Rachel Leslie) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 05:39:36 -0500 Subject: [blml] eiasest Pahramcy Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------5915589620199425 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----353810936574424" ------353810936574424 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 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2005 09:08:55 AM Message-ID: <200502041452.j14Eq1JY019245@athena.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> Grattan Endicott writes: > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:50 AM > Subject: Re: [blml] 100% of Nothing > > > > > > Richard Hills (earlier posting): > > > > >>Note a parallel posting on this thread, in which Sami > > >>Kehela would bid a (natural) 4NT if he could achieve > > >>the call in tempo, but would ethically refuse to bid > > >>a sloooow (natural) 4NT, since the slowness would jog > > >>a snoozy partner's memory that this 4NT call was a > > >>special exception to the normal default of Blackwood. > > > +=+ I would have wondered whether anyone with whom > Kehela might play would lean on a breach of tempo by > Sami in selecting an action. ~ G ~ +=+ Sami has played nothing but rubber bridge for decades. Meaning of course that he plays with a real mixed bag of partners (even allowing for the fact that he plays for fairly high stakes) From johnson@CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca Fri Feb 4 15:42:46 2005 From: johnson@CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca (Ron Johnson) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:42:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blml] Turning the cube In-Reply-To: from "richard.hills@immi.gov.au" at Feb 04, 2005 04:01:52 PM Message-ID: <200502041542.j14Fgkfn019528@athena.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> richard.hills@immi.gov.au writes: > > > > > > Imps > Dlr: South > Vul: None > > The bidding has gone: > > WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH > --- --- --- Pass > 1D 1NT(1) 2S 3NT > Dble 4C(2) Pass Pass > Dble Pass Pass ? > > (1) 15-18. Theoretically balanced and > theoretically a diamond stopper. > Implicit pragmatic partnership > agreement that otherwise might be > the case. (Implicit pragmatic > partnership agreement was pre- > alerted to the opponents at the > start of the match.) > > (2) Implicit pragmatic partnership > agreement that wimpiness shows 6 > (maybe 7 in a 7222 shape) clubs > and a diaphanous diamond "stopper". > > You, South, hold: > > KQ2 > Q74 > J972 > J94 > > What call do you make? Pass > What other call do you consider making? None. 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Will Be Hot All Week get it immediately monday morning, a big promotion will begin Friday evening followed up by a Huge Fax Campaign starting Tuesday. Big profits all week. Breaking News for DTOI - This stock is about to Explode on Monday. DTOI current price is 15 cents WE EXPECT it hits 40-60 cents in the very near future Just put the stock on your screens and watch it SOAR. Our Last profile was BMXG and it went from 40 cents to $2 - now its time for DTOI - get on board today DTOI is producing The Air Spring Axle revolutionizes suspension design for small and medium trailers. Whether you are a trailer manufacturer, a rental manufacturers, a rental fleet owner or prospective trailer buyer, the Air Spring Axle offers superior performance to traditional axle designs. ------------------------------ Symbol: DTOI Current Price: $0.15 We expect 10 day target price of 45 cents+ ------------------------------ Breaking News : PLANTATION, Fla.,- Dtomi, Inc., a Nevada corporation ("Dtomi") (DTOI) , announced today that a prototype of a motorcycle trailer fitted with its Air Spring Axle(TM) is being evaluated by a major motorcycle manufacturer. The Air Spring Axle(TM) is an innovative, patented suspension that provides the benefits of an air suspension and also allows a trailer to be lowered to ground level to simplify loading and unloading. John Haddock, CEO of Dtomi said, "We are obviously very pleased this evaluation is underway especially as we believe the unique attributes of the Air Spring Axle(TM) make it an ideal choice for trailers designed to transport motorcycles. By eliminating long, steep and narrow ramps, the Air Spring Axle(TM) makes loading motorcycles faster, easier and less physically demanding. "Each year, over 500,000 motorcycles are sold with engine capacities greater than 651cc, so the opportunity is very significant", added Haddock ------------------- Stock Symbol: DTOI Current Price: $0.15 We expect 10 day target price of 45 cents+ ------------------- We Highly Recoomend DTOI, Get It Immediate For Explosive Gains, Don't Pass This One Up +++++++Get It Monday At The Open++++++++ Information within this email contains "forward looking statements" within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, goals, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be "forward looking statements." Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as: "projects", "foresee", "expects", "estimates," "believes," "understands" "will," "part of: "anticipates," or that by statements indicating certain actions "may," "could," or "might" occur. All information provided within this email pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. Emerging Equity Alert advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this email. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice. Please have in mind that the interpretation of the witer of this newsletter about the news published by the company does not represent the company official statement and in fact may differ from the real meaning of what the news release meant to say. Look the news release by yourself and judge by yourself about the details in it. In compliance with Section 17(b), we disclose the holding of DTOI shares prior to the publication of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such holdings due to our intent to profit from the liquidation of these shares. Shares may be sold at any time, even after positive statements have been made regarding the above company. Since we own shares, there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions. Readers of this publication are cautioned not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements, which are based on certain assumptions and expectations involving various risks and uncertainties, that could cause results to differ materially from those set forth in the forward- looking statements. Please be advised that nothing within this email shall constitute a solicitation or an invitation to get position in or sell any security mentioned herein. This newsletter is neither a registered investment advisor nor affiliated with any broker or dealer. This newsletter was paid 21800 from third party (TrIPromoConsult Report) to send this report. All statements made are our express opinion only and should be treated as such. We may own, take position and sell any securities mentioned at any time. This report includes forward-looking statements within the meaning of The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements may include terms as "expect", "believe", "may", "will", "move","undervalued" "speculative target price" and "intend" or similar terms. cipher footpath From yhwnqteg@chartertn.net Sun Feb 6 06:15:58 2005 From: yhwnqteg@chartertn.net (Darius Sadler) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 23:15:58 -0700 Subject: [blml] Buy Xãñäx ñ0w Message-ID: <20050206061600.45E8514A@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------914938694790266991 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----7781067420174979276" ------7781067420174979276 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Canuck Prhamayc *****on premediation requisite***** * Lowest Prices * Valor, Xray, Vitality, Supa, Amor, Philosophy, moo!! * Fearful Desire *****on premeditation requisite***** ------7781067420174979276 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = ------7781067420174979276-- ------914938694790266991 Content-Type: image/gif; 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We will offer you best prices on any meds you need Viagra Cialis Valium Xanax and much more.. Please click below and check out our offer. http://patrick.epicoff3rs.com/?wid=100069 irregular egr harangue eec topnotch ows snowy cna say ua silky quq abigail eq detach ph postgraduate mjn countrymen qh splendid cwv distributor gik strung wzu pitchfork lwq http://psychophysic.epicoff3rs.com/nomore.html From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Sun Feb 6 22:54:02 2005 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:54:02 +1100 Subject: [blml] Turning the cube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard Hills: [snip] >>WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH >>--- --- --- Pass >>1D 1NT(1) 2S 3NT >>Dble 4C(2) Pass Pass >>Dble Pass Pass ? [snip] >>(2) Implicit pragmatic partnership >> agreement that wimpiness shows 6 >> (maybe 7 in a 7222 shape) clubs >> and a diaphanous diamond "stopper". In a private email, a blmler responded: >I pass and take my 510... I'm not greedy! > >This being imps, I am sure some people will >consider a redouble. Stupid at matchpoints >but possibly a +1 or 2 imp decision here. >The price tag is huge if any accidents >happen though! Richard Hills: I disagree that only 1 or 2 imps are at stake. If one makes a reasonable assumption that the other table scores +400 in 3NT, then: 4Cx +510 = 3 imp gain 4Cxx +720 = 8 imp gain Net gain for redoubling in this case is 5 imps. And, if 4C will score an overtrick, the gain for a redouble is 20% greater: 4Cx +610 = 5 imp gain 4Cxx +920 = 11 imp gain Net gain for redoubling in this case is 6 imps (plus a psychological edge over demoralised opponents who have lost -920 the hard way). Off-topic note: I believe that Mr Kock and Mr Werner have a lot to answer for by inventing the SOS redouble. Eddie Kantar agrees, "It goes without saying that misunderstandings over the possible meanings of 'redouble' have cost many a partnership, friendship, marriage (pick three)." In my opinion, partnerships excessively avoid useful penalty redoubles at imps, due to the corrupting effect of playing too many SOS redoubles at matchpoints. Note the earlier comment: "The price tag is huge if any accidents happen though!" *If* a partnership plays in a significant amount of imp events, *then* a partnership may wish to delete the Kock-Werner SOS redouble from its list of agreements. The blmler's private email continued: >And, of course, *if* anyone at the table is >"operating," it will be the guy who is 3rd seat >and NV. But that's obvious to everyone with a >pulse - indeed without Agreement #2 in place, 4C >means "I have a club preempt." [snip] Richard Hills: The complete deal and actual auction (directions rotated 90 degrees) -> AJ87643 J92 3 86 T5 KQ2 83 Q74 T4 J972 AKT7532 J94 9 AKT65 AKQ865 Q WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH --- --- Pass 1D 1NT 2S Pass 3H Pass 3S Dble 4D Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass Result: 4H making by South, NS +420. This was case number 1 in the 2003 WBU Appeals Casebook. The TD and AC ruled that East's pass of West's 1NT overcall was evidence of a concealed partnership understanding about a pseudo-psyche. Under the Welsh Red Psyche regulation, the board was cancelled, and Ave+/Ave- awarded, +3 imps to the NOS, -3 imps to the OS. (The AC also kept the deposit when the OS appealed.) *If* this case had occurred in a jurisdiction which had zero pseudo-psyche (Red Psyche) regulations, how would you rule? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From xjmhfm@level3.net Mon Feb 7 03:23:38 2005 From: xjmhfm@level3.net (Rosalinda Coleman) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:23:38 +0500 Subject: [blml] Get antyihng Ñ0w Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------0199398276698030 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----659737678860163" ------659737678860163 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Canuck Prhamayc *****on premediation requisite***** * Lowest Prices * Valor, Xray, Vitality, Supa, Amor, Philosophy, moo!! * Fearful Desire *****on premeditation requisite***** ------659737678860163 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = ------659737678860163-- ------0199398276698030 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhswGlAHcAMSH+GlNvZnR3YXJlOiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT2ZmaWNlACH5BAEAAAAALAEAAQCx 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Message-ID: <000401c50ecb$901c4950$6900a8c0@WINXP> Quote: 2.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments The following conventions or treatments are categorized as 'Brown Sticker': a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: i) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below average strength) AND ii) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. EXCEPTION: iii) The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit if it is weak. If the bid does not show a known four card suit it must show a hand a king or more over average strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak meanings show at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong meanings show a hand with a king or more above average strength, it is not a Brown Sticker Convention.) End quote. What is the meaning of this? Clause i) says that a bid is a brown sticker convention if it by agreement can be made with less than average strength (i.e. less than 10 HCP) and then does not show at least four cards in a known suit. The exception here is no exception at all; it does not describe any hand embraced in the main definition of brown sticker while stating that the particularly described hand is not a brown sticker convention. Furthermore the "exception" states in so many words that in order not to be a brown sticker the bid must show four cards in a known suit if the hand is weak (i.e. less than 8 HCP according to the definition of a weak hand) or it must be of strength at least 13 HCP. This is meaningless to say the least. How do we rule hands with strengths between 7 and 13 HCP? Even if we ignore the general definition of a weak hand (less than 8 HCP or lacking a King to be average) and stick to the words used in the above main definition for brown stickers where it says "less than average" in clause i) we are still left with the interval between 10 and 13 HCP. This matter came up during the master's league in Oslo last weekend where I was directing. A team had declared various opening bids at the three-level showing unknown suit(s) and at least 10 HCP. (I don't remember the high end of their HCP range). None of these hands was "below average strength". On investigation I found out that the intended rule appears to be: a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: i) is not necessarily strong (may by agreement be made with values below a King above average strength) AND But then why doesn't it say so? I shall appreciate qualified comments! Regards Sven From adam at irvine.com Wed Feb 9 18:40:37 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Wed Feb 9 18:40:43 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:19:50 +0100." <000401c50ecb$901c4950$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <200502091740.JAA32474@mailhub.irvine.com> Sven wrote: > Quote: > 2.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments > The following conventions or treatments are categorized as 'Brown Sticker': > a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: > i) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below average > strength) AND > ii) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. > EXCEPTION: > iii) The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit if it is > weak. If the bid does not show a known four card suit it must show a hand a > king or more over average strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak > meanings show at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong meanings > show a hand with a king or more above average strength, it is not a Brown > Sticker Convention.) > End quote. > > What is the meaning of this? > > Clause i) says that a bid is a brown sticker convention if it by agreement > can be made with less than average strength (i.e. less than 10 HCP) and then > does not show at least four cards in a known suit. > > The exception here is no exception at all; it does not describe any hand > embraced in the main definition of brown sticker while stating that the > particularly described hand is not a brown sticker convention. No, I think the exception is necessary. Suppose you're playing that 2C shows either a weak hand with long diamonds OR any big hand (a fairly popular convention in Europe, if I understand correctly). Obviously, this bid meets condition (i). Does it meet (ii)? If someone asked you, "What suit does your 2C bid promise four cards in", and you said "diamonds", this would mean you can't open 2C on standard 2C openers like AK64/AQJ/K3/AKQ7 or on AKQJ85/AK3/A/A32, since those hands don't have four diamonds. So there isn't a suit that 2C promises four cards in, and thus without the exception this 2C convention would meet conditions (i) and (ii) and thus be a Brown Sticker convention. But the exception declares this not to be Brown Sticker. I think the exception is clearly intended to cover two-way bids such as this. Hopefully this should clear up the answers to the rest of your questions; if it doesn't, I'm not really qualified to help any more, since my only qualification is that I've been a computer programmer for several decades and understand what the words AND and OR mean. :) > On investigation I found out that the intended rule appears to be: > > a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: > i) is not necessarily strong (may by agreement be made with values below > a King above average strength) AND > > But then why doesn't it say so? I think this rule is a difficult thing to word correctly. The ACBL's solution to this problem was to talk about "strong adjuncts"; this is on their SuperChart: 1. Artificial weak bids at the two or three level (including those with strong adjuncts) must possess: a. a known suit, or b. one of no more than two possible suits not to include the suit bid. I've always interpreted this to mean that the restrictions in (a) or (b) apply only to the weak bids, and not to the strong adjuncts. But I suppose this could be misinterpreted also, and I'm sure it's confusing to some. -- Adam From svenpran at online.no Wed Feb 9 20:22:54 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed Feb 9 20:23:26 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: <200502091740.JAA32474@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: <000501c50edc$c7c4bac0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Adam Beneschan > Sven wrote: > > > Quote: > > 2.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments > > The following conventions or treatments are > > categorized as 'Brown Sticker': > > a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: > > i) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values > > below average strength) AND > > ii) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. > > EXCEPTION: > > iii) The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit > > if it is weak. If the bid does not show a known four card > > suit it must show a hand a king or more over average > > strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak meanings show > > at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong > > meanings show a hand with a king or more above average > > strength, it is not a Brown Sticker Convention.) > > End quote. > > > > What is the meaning of this? > > > > Clause i) says that a bid is a brown sticker convention if it > > by agreement can be made with less than average strength (i.e. > > less than 10 HCP) and then does not show at least four cards > > in a known suit. > > > > The exception here is no exception at all; it does not describe > > any hand embraced in the main definition of brown sticker while > > stating that the particularly described hand is not a brown > > sticker convention. > > No, I think the exception is necessary. Suppose you're playing > that 2C shows either a weak hand with long diamonds OR any big > hand (a fairly popular convention in Europe, if I understand > correctly). Obviously, this bid meets condition (i). Does it > meet (ii)? If someone asked you, "What suit does your 2C bid > promise four cards in", and you said "diamonds", this would > mean you can't open 2C on standard2C openers like AK64/AQJ/K3/AKQ7 > or on AKQJ85/AK3/A/A32, since those hands don't have four diamonds. > So there isn't a suit that 2C promises four cards in, and thus > without the exception this 2C convention would meet conditions (i) > and (ii) and thus be a Brown Sticker convention. But the exception > declares this not to be Brown Sticker. Indeed! I overlooked the fact that clause i) does not give any upper limit for the strength. But ... > I think the exception is clearly intended to cover two-way bids such > as this. Obviously. > Hopefully this should clear up the answers to the rest of > your questions; if it doesn't, I'm not really qualified to help any > more, since my only qualification is that I've been a computer > programmer for several decades and understand what the words AND and > OR mean. :) So am I, in fact I wrote my first computer program in January 1964. But ... The fact is that any hand promising at least 10HCP is not embraced in clause i) and as such should not be a Brown sticker regardless of the other conditions (following the AND). Or is EXCEPTION (clause iii) to be taken not only as exception from being brown sticker (for strong hands) but also as ADDITION to being brown sticker (for hands in the strength range 10-12 HCP without a known 4-card suit)? > > > On investigation I found out that the intended rule appears to be: > > > > a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: > > i) is not necessarily strong (may by agreement be made with > > values below a King above average strength) AND when not > > strong > > > > But then why doesn't it say so? > > I think this rule is a difficult thing to word correctly. What do you think of my suggestion above (after I added the few words following "AND")? The ACBL's > solution to this problem was to talk about "strong adjuncts"; this is > on their SuperChart: > > 1. Artificial weak bids at the two or three level (including those with > strong adjuncts) must possess: > a. a known suit, or > b. one of no more than two possible suits not to include the suit > bid. > > I've always interpreted this to mean that the restrictions in (a) or > (b) apply only to the weak bids, and not to the strong adjuncts. But > I suppose this could be misinterpreted also, and I'm sure it's > confusing to some. The Norwegian regulation has been directly translated from the English text and is understood to require a known suit when weak (leaving unsolved the question of hands with strength in the range 10-12 HCP), but we have added one additional exception: An opening bid of two in a minor suit showing at least five cards in an unknown major suit is not a brown sticker convention. There is no requirement for a strong variant of this bid. But the question still remains unanswered how to consider hands with strength values in the range 10-12 HCP and no known suit. Personally I shall prefer the upper strength limit for brown sticker conventions to be "less than a King above average strength". Thanks for your comments Regards Sven From siegmund at mosquitonet.com Wed Feb 9 22:01:51 2005 From: siegmund at mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Wed Feb 9 21:59:23 2005 Subject: [blml] Turning the cube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Trying this again, after my first attempt bounced: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: >>>> >>WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH >>>> >>--- --- --- Pass >>>> >>1D 1NT(1) 2S 3NT >>>> >>Dble 4C(2) Pass Pass >>>> >>Dble Pass Pass ? > >> >> In a private email, a blmler responded: Aha. I wondered why my post hadn't gone though. I see I sent it privately:)) >>> >I pass and take my 510... I'm not greedy! >>> > >>> >This being imps, I am sure some people will >>> >consider a redouble. Stupid at matchpoints >>> >but possibly a +1 or 2 imp decision here. >>> >The price tag is huge if any accidents >>> >happen though! > >> >> Richard Hills: >> >> I disagree that only 1 or 2 imps are at >> stake. If one makes a reasonable assumption >> that the other table scores +400 in 3NT, then: Your partner ran from 3NTx. If assuming the other table would score 400 in 3NT was a reasonable assumption, you'd be playing for 550 at this table. Your raise to 3NT was very shaky in the first place and now partner is scared too. There is virtually no chance 3NT makes. Against 130, 510 is 9 imps and 720 is 11. Against -50 (3NT down 1 not doubled and not run from), 11 vs 13. On a bad day, against -300 (3NTx-2), 13 vs 14. >> 4Cx +610 = 5 imp gain >> 4Cxx +920 = 11 imp gain That could happen if the other table is in 5C or something, yes. By "a +1 or 2 IMP decision" I meant expectation, not size of stake. It will in my judgment often be a 2-imp gain, rarely a 5 or 6 imp gain, and can be a moderate loss in a variety of ways (110 at the other table: -100 is 5 imps -200 is 7; -50 at the other table, -300 is 5 imps, -600 is 11.) Redouble is certainly to play in this sequence, where one player is one-suited and the other has already passed up a chance to show a shapely hand by bidding 3NT. >> The complete deal and actual auction (directions >> rotated 90 degrees) -> >> >> AJ87643 >> J92 >> 3 >> 86 >> T5 KQ2 >> 83 Q74 >> T4 J972 >> AKT7532 J94 >> 9 >> AKT65 >> AKQ865 >> Q >> >> WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH >> --- --- Pass 1D >> 1NT 2S Pass 3H >> Pass 3S Dble 4D >> Pass 4H Pass Pass >> Pass >> >> Result: 4H making by South, NS +420. >> >> *If* this case had occurred in a jurisdiction which >> had zero pseudo-psyche (Red Psyche) regulations, >> how would you rule? Score stands, of course, in Wales or anywhere else. In my comments in the appeals book I considered 3NT a scandalously bad call by East even opposite a full notrump overcall. If 2SX gets doubled, West is clearly going to run. 4CX looks like it's only off two for 300 anyway so even if you DO incorrectly rule fielded psych, there has been no damage. GRB From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 9 22:50:54 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 9 22:50:32 2005 Subject: [blml] UI ad infinitum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How long does UI linger? For example: On board 1 of the first round of a session, you are defending. You wish to encourage partner to find a heart switch. So your first discard is the nine of hearts. You believe that your partnership has the agreement "high to encourage". However, upon declarer's enquiry, partner correctly explains that you are playing "odd to encourage", which jogs your memory about your actual partnership agreement. Since (coincidentally) the card you chose is still encouraging under your actual partnership agreement, you do not gain any AI from the subsequent defence to legally jog your memory. Time passes, during which you are either declarer or dummy, but not a defender. When next you defend, again you wish to encourage partner to find a heart switch. On your first discard, the only discard which does not cost a trick is a heart, and you have a choice between the ten of hearts and the three of hearts. When is the *earliest* time it is legal for you to discard the "odd to encourage" three of hearts: (a) A subsequent board in the first round? (b) A board in a subsequent round? (c) A board in a subsequent session? (d) Not until you gain AI from misdefending? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 9 23:33:47 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 9 23:33:20 2005 Subject: [blml] The Return of the King (was Toil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard Hills: >This is the crux of the issue; *if* there had been a >correct explanation, *would* South have known that the >opponents have had a misunderstanding? Suppose that a >hypothetical (but legal) auction had occurred: > >WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH >--- 1C(1) Dble(2) Pass(3) >4S(4) Dble(5) Pass ? > >(1) 15+ hcp, any shape. >(2) Partnership agreement is both minors, and West also > explains it as both minors. >(3) Artificial game force. >(4) Immediately after giving the correct explanation, > West has temporary amnesia, thinks East holds both > majors, so jumps to 4S. >(5) Takeout double. > >With South holding: > >Q6 >AQJ65 >J7 >T975 > >it seems to me that, on this hypothetical (but legal) >auction, South has an automatic call of 5H. > >This was the reasoning of the Chief Director in his >adjustment of the table score from 5C -150 to 5H -100. >However, it seems to me that the Chief Director's >reasoning possibly suffers from a subtle logical flaw. > >It seems to me that this possible subtle logical flaw >is > >[to be continued in the thread The Return of the King] that in the auction that actually occurred, South gained authorised information (from West misexplaining double as showing both majors) that West had forgotten the East-West agreement. The King of Law 16 and Law 75 interpretation, Edgar Kaplan, used this (paraphrased) metaphor: "South is entitled to have access to a 100% accurate (hypothetical) computer printout of the East-West partnership agreements, but East-West have no such entitlement." In my opinion, a logical extension of King Edgar's metaphor is that cancellation of MI from a mistaken explanation does *not necessarily* cancel the AI that an opponent has given a mistaken explanation. In my opinion, *if* South had been deemed to retain AI that opponents were having a bidding misunderstanding, *then* 4Sx passed out for a postcode penalty would have been the appropriate Law 12C2 adjusted score. (Aussie TDs are not yet permitted to award Law 12C3 weighted adjusted scores.) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From wxzuwlh at kentoto.com Wed Feb 9 23:27:42 2005 From: wxzuwlh at kentoto.com (Keith Quintero) Date: Wed Feb 9 23:35:55 2005 Subject: [blml] Vicodin - only now Glenda Message-ID: <3DF4FB83.95004@ubp.edu.ar> Big sale on Vicodin and other drugs. You wont find better prices anywhere! Vicodin - 90 PiIls - 178$ Viagra - 100 PilIs - 209.99$ Cialis - 90 PiIls - 324$ Ambien - 120 PilIs - 249$ Xanax - 90 PiIls - 299$ and many more... Please click below and check out our offer. http://sulfite.vigra4.info/in.php?aid=44 %TEXT[2-5] %TEXT[2-5] From davidgrabiner at comcast.net Wed Feb 9 23:39:43 2005 From: davidgrabiner at comcast.net (grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu) Date: Wed Feb 9 23:39:49 2005 Subject: [blml] UI ad infinitum Message-ID: <020920052239.17562.420A912F000A10EA0000449A22007637049D0A02070D0E9D090B07900E0B@comcast.net> Richard Hills writes: > > How long does UI linger? > > For example: > > On board 1 of the first round of a session, you are > defending. You wish to encourage partner to find a > heart switch. So your first discard is the nine of > hearts. > > You believe that your partnership has the agreement > "high to encourage". However, upon declarer's > enquiry, partner correctly explains that you are > playing "odd to encourage", which jogs your memory > about your actual partnership agreement. > > Since (coincidentally) the card you chose is still > encouraging under your actual partnership agreement, > you do not gain any AI from the subsequent defence > to legally jog your memory. > > Time passes, during which you are either declarer > or dummy, but not a defender. When next you defend, > again you wish to encourage partner to find a heart > switch. On your first discard, the only discard > which does not cost a trick is a heart, and you have > a choice between the ten of hearts and the three of > hearts. > > When is the *earliest* time it is legal for you to > discard the "odd to encourage" three of hearts: > > (a) A subsequent board in the first round? > (b) A board in a subsequent round? > (c) A board in a subsequent session? > (d) Not until you gain AI from misdefending? UI affects only actions during the bidding and play, not between hands. Since you are normally allowed to talk to your partner or look at your convention card between boards, the UI expires then, and you can check (or correct) your agreement before the second board. > > > > > How long does UI linger? > > For example: > > On board 1 of the first round of a session, you are > defending. You wish to encourage partner to find a > heart switch. So your first discard is the nine of > hearts. > > You believe that your partnership has the agreement > "high to encourage". However, upon declarer's > enquiry, partner correctly explains that you are > playing "odd to encourage", which jogs your memory > about your actual partnership agreement. > > Since (coincidentally) the card you chose is still > encouraging under your actual partnership agreement, > you do not gain any AI from the subsequent defence > to legally jog your memory. > > Time passes, during which you are either declarer > or dummy, but not a defender. When next you defend, > again you wish to encourage partner to find a heart > switch. On your first discard, the only discard > which does not cost a trick is a heart, and you have > a choice between the ten of hearts and the three of > hearts. > > When is the *earliest* time it is legal for you to > discard the "odd to encourage" three of hearts: > > (a) A subsequent board in the first round? > (b) A board in a subsequent round? > (c) A board in a subsequent session? > (d) Not until you gain AI from misdefending? > > > Best wishes > > Richard Hills > Movie grognard and general guru > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 10 00:03:16 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 10 00:02:49 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: <000401c50ecb$901c4950$6900a8c0@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Sven Pran asked: >Quote: >2.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments >The following conventions or treatments are categorized as 'Brown Sticker': >a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: >i) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below average >strength) AND >ii) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. > EXCEPTION: >iii) The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit if it is >weak. If the bid does not show a known four card suit it must show a hand a >king or more over average strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak >meanings show at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong meanings >show a hand with a king or more above average strength, it is not a Brown >Sticker Convention.) >End quote. > >What is the meaning of this? [snip] Richard Hills replies: The ABF sensibly follows the policy of promulgating penultimate regulations for use by Aussies, so that at-the-table experience permits revision of wording and content for an ultimate regulation half-a-year later. The ABF has just published a penultimate Brown Sticker regulation. The ABF penultimate BS reg avoids some of the problems of the over-concise Norwegian BS reg. (See attached.) Note: I have been informally advised that the ultimate ABF BS reg will include further clarity in its language. Penultimate ABF Brown Sticker regulation: >>2.2 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments >> >>Certain types of conventional calls or treatments are considered to place >>demands upon the opponents' defensive preparations. The conventions / >>treatments in question are categorized as "Brown Sticker" (BS). >> >>Any one of the following characteristics qualifies a convention / treatment >>as BS if it is a matter of partnership agreement: >> >>a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: could be weak >> *and* does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. >> >> Exceptions: >> >> (i) Where all the weak meanings guarantee at least four cards in one >> known suit and only the strong options do not. >> (ii) A two level opening bid in a minor may show a weak hand with 5+ >> cards in either major only, or as an option among any number of >> strong hand types. >> >>b) An overcall of a natural opening bid of one of a suit that does not >> promise at least four cards in a known suit. >> >> Exceptions: >> >> (i) A natural overcall in no trumps. >> (ii) Any cue bid that shows a strong hand. >> (iii) A cue bid in opponent's known suit that asks partner to bid 3NT >> with a stopper in that suit. >> >>c) Any weak two-suited bids at the two or three level, whether offensive or >> defensive, that may by agreement be made with three cards or fewer in one >> of the suits. >> >>Note: None of the foregoing restrictions (a-c) pertain to conventional >>defences against strong, artificial opening bids or defences against "Brown >>Sticker" or HUM conventions. Conventional defences to 1NT are also >>unrestricted. >> >>Additional to the classification of system, any partnership using one or more >>"Brown Sticker" conventions must individually list them on their system cards >>and/or supplementary sheets. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From wayne.burrows at xtra.co.nz Thu Feb 10 00:26:29 2005 From: wayne.burrows at xtra.co.nz (Wayne Burrows) Date: Thu Feb 10 00:23:37 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries Message-ID: <420A9C25.5090602@xtra.co.nz> I often seem to get UI cases wrong particularly when I am at the table. In the worst case we had two appeals that occurred on consecutive boards of the NZ Pairs championships. One we thought was clear cut and the other dubious. We of course won the dubious appeal and lost the clear-cut appeal and just to emphasize my misunderstanding we were fined for bringing a frivolous appeal. But that is another story. One of the latest cases that I was involved in occurred in one of the later rounds of the South West Pacific Teams in Canberra. It occurred at table one which means that the players were at least semi-competent. My opponents of course were more competent than we were. We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. Brd 8 Nil Vul Dlr West Pass Pass Pass 1S Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter Pass 3NT Pass ? AQJ763 J AQT2 K9 The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. Can you pull 3NT? If you can what is the minimum change that you would make to the hand so that Pass is a logical alternative that would be barred by the UI? TIA Wayne -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 7/02/2005 From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 10 00:28:34 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 10 00:28:40 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:26:29 +1300." <420A9C25.5090602@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <200502092328.PAA02509@mailhub.irvine.com> Wayne Burrows wrote: > We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. > > Brd 8 > Nil Vul > Dlr West > > Pass Pass Pass 1S > Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter > Pass 3NT Pass ? > > AQJ763 > J > AQT2 > K9 > > The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. > > Can you pull 3NT? I haven't yet given this much thought, but it seems like it makes a difference whether this is IMPs or matchpoints. (IMPs makes it more favorable to hunt for a diamond slam and possibly end up in 5D instead of 3NT.) -- Adam From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 10 00:32:35 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 10 00:32:38 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:26:29 +1300." <420A9C25.5090602@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <200502092332.PAA02547@mailhub.irvine.com> Please ignore my last post. I forgot that Wayne said this was in a "Teams" event. Or, more likely, I just looked at the hand diagram and paid insufficient attention to what came above. -- Adam From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 10 00:43:37 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 10 00:43:39 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:26:29 +1300." <420A9C25.5090602@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <200502092343.PAA02601@mailhub.irvine.com> > > We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. > > Brd 8 > Nil Vul > Dlr West [IMPs] > Pass Pass Pass 1S > Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter > Pass 3NT Pass ? > > AQJ763 > J > AQT2 > K9 > > The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. > > Can you pull 3NT? I don't think passing is a LA here. Even assuming a wasted heart king, give partner the club ace and one of the other kings and I'd want to be in slam at IMPs; and 5D should be pretty safe if partner is strong enough to make a 2D bid. So I think a further try is indicated. > If you can what is the minimum change that you would make to the hand so > that Pass is a logical alternative that would be barred by the UI? I assume you mean "so that Pass is a logical alternative that would cause other bids to be barred by the UI"? I'm not sure. Maybe making the diamonds AJT2 would be enough. Or AJ92. -- Adam From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 10 00:51:54 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 10 00:51:58 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c50f02$55b69ef0$6900a8c0@WINXP> richard.hills@immi.gov.au > Sven Pran asked: > > >Quote: > >2.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments > >The following conventions or treatments are categorized as 'Brown > Sticker': > >a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: > >i) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below average > >strength) AND > >ii) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. > > EXCEPTION: > >iii) The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit if it is > >weak. If the bid does not show a known four card suit it must show a hand > a > >king or more over average strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak > >meanings show at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong > meanings > >show a hand with a king or more above average strength, it is not a Brown > >Sticker Convention.) > >End quote. > > > >What is the meaning of this? > > [snip] > > Richard Hills replies: > > The ABF sensibly follows the policy of promulgating penultimate > regulations > for use by Aussies, so that at-the-table experience permits revision of > wording and content for an ultimate regulation half-a-year later. > > The ABF has just published a penultimate Brown Sticker regulation. The > ABF > penultimate BS reg avoids some of the problems of the over-concise > Norwegian BS reg. (See attached.) Just a small remark: The "over-concise" Norwegian regulation is a direct translation from the English text. But see also some more comments a little further down. > > Note: I have been informally advised that the ultimate ABF BS reg will > include > further clarity in its language. > > Penultimate ABF Brown Sticker regulation: > > >>2.2 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments > >> > >>Certain types of conventional calls or treatments are considered to > place > >>demands upon the opponents' defensive preparations. The conventions / > >>treatments in question are categorized as "Brown Sticker" (BS). > >> > >>Any one of the following characteristics qualifies a convention / > treatment > >>as BS if it is a matter of partnership agreement: > >> > >>a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: could be weak > >> *and* does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. > >> > >> Exceptions: > >> > >> (i) Where all the weak meanings guarantee at least four cards in > one > >> known suit and only the strong options do not. > >> (ii) A two level opening bid in a minor may show a weak hand with 5+ > >> cards in either major only, or as an option among any number of > >> strong hand types. How are the terms "weak" and "strong" defined for the ABF regulation? According to the original English text which has been literally translated into the Norwegian regulation a "weak" hand has a strength value at least a King below average strength while a "strong" hand has a strength value at least a King above average strength. Consequently a hand with strength in the interval 8 - 12 HCP is neither "weak" nor "strong". Unless you have a definition of strengths that leaves no gap between "weak" and "strong" your regulation will be useless for dealing with hands having strength within this gap. Regards Sven (Snip the part that does not cause any difficulty). From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 10 01:08:31 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 10 01:08:32 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:22:54 +0100." <000501c50edc$c7c4bac0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <200502100008.QAA02725@mailhub.irvine.com> Sven wrote: > Adam Beneschan > > Sven wrote: > > > > > Quote: > > > 2.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments > > > The following conventions or treatments are > > > categorized as 'Brown Sticker': > > > a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: > > > i) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values > > > below average strength) AND > > > ii) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. > > > EXCEPTION: > > > iii) The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit > > > if it is weak. If the bid does not show a known four card > > > suit it must show a hand a king or more over average > > > strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak meanings show > > > at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong > > > meanings show a hand with a king or more above average > > > strength, it is not a Brown Sticker Convention.) > > > End quote. > > > > > > What is the meaning of this? > > > > > > Clause i) says that a bid is a brown sticker convention if it > > > by agreement can be made with less than average strength (i.e. > > > less than 10 HCP) and then does not show at least four cards > > > in a known suit. > > Hopefully this should clear up the answers to the rest of > > your questions; if it doesn't, I'm not really qualified to help any > > more, since my only qualification is that I've been a computer > > programmer for several decades and understand what the words AND and > > OR mean. :) > > So am I, in fact I wrote my first computer program in January 1964. Hmmm, I was only three years old at the time, so I guess you have a bit more experience than I do. Most likely in January 1964 I was drawing pictures with crayons on the back of my father's old listings of computer programs. > But ... > > The fact is that any hand promising at least 10HCP is not embraced in clause > i) and as such should not be a Brown sticker regardless of the other > conditions (following the AND). > > Or is EXCEPTION (clause iii) to be taken not only as exception from being > brown sticker (for strong hands) but also as ADDITION to being brown sticker > (for hands in the strength range 10-12 HCP without a known 4-card suit)? I think I have a fuller understanding of the problem now. I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but I don't think the rule applies to any bid that promises 10+ HCP. At least, I think that's the way it would be in the ACBL, using their convention charts. Their charts tend to assume that any opening bid that promises 10 HCP or more is a "normal" opening bid, not a weak bid, and you're given more leeway about what to do. For example, you can open an artificial 1C that shows 10+ HCP, without any known suit, in *any* event (not just the big knockout events where the SuperChart would apply). The only problem that's left is, suppose you have a two-way bid that either shows a weak hand with a known long suit, or some other hand type that could be in the 10-12 range. (Or maybe a three-way bid that shows one of those two, or a strong hand.) How to apply (iii) to this is not clear. My guess would be that the hands in the 10-12 range also have to have a known four-card suit; it's not clear whether this has to be the same suit as the suit promised when the hand is weaker than that, or could be a different known suit. -- Adam From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 10 01:41:21 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 10 01:41:00 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <200502092343.PAA02601@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Wayne Burrows: >>We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. >> >>Brd 8 >>Nil Vul >>Dlr West >> >>[IMPs] >> >>Pass Pass Pass 1S >>Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter >>Pass 3NT Pass ? >> >>AQJ763 >>J >>AQT2 >>K9 >> >>The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. >> >>Can you pull 3NT? Adam Beneschan: >I don't think passing is a LA here. Even assuming a wasted heart >king, give partner the club ace and one of the other kings and I'd >want to be in slam at IMPs; and 5D should be pretty safe if partner is >strong enough to make a 2D bid. So I think a further try is >indicated. Richard Hills: I do think passing is an LA here. Even on Adam's perfect maximum option (for an initial-passed partner who has notionally shown wasted values opposite a singleton heart), slam is slightly less than a 50% chance - even with a finesse working, bad breaks could sink a slam. But what if partner has *more* wasted values, such as KQx in hearts? Now 5D may fail on plausible bad breaks, with 3NT cold. Even if there are no bad breaks, 5D may have three certain losers, if pard holds, for example, K KQT J98765 QJT and the king of trumps is offside. (And 3NT is still cold.) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 10 02:18:07 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 10 02:17:52 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: <000101c50f02$55b69ef0$6900a8c0@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: ABF Brown Sticker Regulation: >>Any one of the following characteristics qualifies a convention / >>treatment as BS if it is a matter of partnership agreement: >> >>a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: could >> be weak *and* does not promise at least four cards in a known >> suit. >> >> Exceptions: >> >> (i) Where all the weak meanings guarantee at least four >> cards in one known suit and only the strong options do >> not. >> (ii) A two level opening bid in a minor may show a weak hand >> with 5+ cards in either major only, or as an option >> among any number of strong hand types. [snip] Sven Pran asked: >How are the terms "weak" and "strong" defined for the ABF >regulation? ABF System Regulations, definitions: >>Average Hand - A hand containing 10 HCP with no distributional >> values >>Weak - High card strength below that of an average hand >>Strong - High card strength a king or greater than that of >> an average hand (i.e. ~13+ HCP) >>Natural - A call or play that is not a convention >>Length - Three cards or more >>Shortage - Two cards or less >>Convention - A call that, by partnership agreement, conveys a [snip] Sven Pran: >According to the original English text which has been literally >translated into the Norwegian regulation a "weak" hand has a >strength value at least a King below average strength while a >"strong" hand has a strength value at least a King above average >strength. Consequently a hand with strength in the interval 8 - >12 HCP is neither "weak" nor "strong". Richard Hills: According to the ABF definitions above, 10-12 hcp is neither weak nor strong for Down Under bridgeurs. Sven Pran: >Unless you have a definition of strengths that leaves no gap >between "weak" and "strong" your regulation will be useless for >dealing with hands having strength within this gap. Richard Hills: The original English / Norwegian regulation may be useless. But I do not see a problem under the wording of the ABF regulation. Since 10-12 hcp possibilities are not included in the (a)(i) and (a)(ii) exceptions to clause (a), then the 10-12 hcp possibilities must be covered by the unexceptional clause (a) default. And if *all* possibilities of a particular 2C to 3S bid are non- weak and/or guarantee four cards in a known suit, then clause (a) states that it is inapplicable. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From gjdjbosmttzm at adelphia.net Thu Feb 10 02:21:13 2005 From: gjdjbosmttzm at adelphia.net (Bethany Darby) Date: Thu Feb 10 02:30:23 2005 Subject: [blml] Inxpeneisve V@lium Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050210/4bd15eb7/attachment.gif From john at asimere.com Thu Feb 10 03:14:58 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Thu Feb 10 03:16:45 2005 Subject: [blml] UI ad infinitum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , richard.hills@immi.gov.au writes > > > > >How long does UI linger? > >For example: > >On board 1 of the first round of a session, you are >defending. You wish to encourage partner to find a >heart switch. So your first discard is the nine of >hearts. > >You believe that your partnership has the agreement >"high to encourage". However, upon declarer's >enquiry, partner correctly explains that you are >playing "odd to encourage", which jogs your memory >about your actual partnership agreement. > >Since (coincidentally) the card you chose is still >encouraging under your actual partnership agreement, >you do not gain any AI from the subsequent defence >to legally jog your memory. > >Time passes, during which you are either declarer >or dummy, but not a defender. When next you defend, >again you wish to encourage partner to find a heart >switch. On your first discard, the only discard >which does not cost a trick is a heart, and you have >a choice between the ten of hearts and the three of >hearts. > >When is the *earliest* time it is legal for you to >discard the "odd to encourage" three of hearts: > >(a) A subsequent board in the first round? I think all UI bets are off once a hand has been scored. You can cheerfully say "O s**t, I forgot the agreement, lucky it didn't cost. Can we make sure we're in agreement now?" >(b) A board in a subsequent round? >(c) A board in a subsequent session? >(d) Not until you gain AI from misdefending? > > >Best wishes > >Richard Hills >Movie grognard and general guru > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Feb 10 03:57:28 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Thu Feb 10 03:58:26 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? Message-ID: <420ACD98.5080509@cfa.harvard.edu> Here's a hand from this weekend's Grand National Open Teams District 25 qualifying event. The competition was great, but in my opinion the directing left something to be desired. I'd like to know what people think about this one. IMP scoring, South deals, NS vul. North holds: AQxx - AKQJxx Qxx NS play 2/1 with some gadgets, 1NT=15-17. South opens 1C, and with EW passing throughout, the auction begins: S N 1C-1D 1N-2H 3H- The 2H bid should show hearts, but North misbid. In some similar sequences (but not in this one) NS use 2H to show spades. North wakes up when South doesn't alert the 2H bid, UI to North. In the actual methods, 3H is a natural raise showing 4-card heart support. In North's fantasy system, 3H shows 4-card _spade_ support, a non-minimum (enough to accept a game try but limited by not having opened 1NT), and high-card values in hearts. South would not have bid a 4c major over 1D so could be 4=4=2=3 or could have balanced distribution with four clubs and four of a major. The auction continues: S N -4D 4H-4S 5C-5D 6H-6S 6NT-P and 6NT makes. Which of North's bids is illegal after the UI, and what contracts do you consider in a score adjustment? If it makes a difference, South's actual hand was Kxx AJxx xx AJTx. With spades and clubs 3-3 and the C-K onside, a grand slam in anything except hearts will make if it's bid. There was no MI. (Henk: I gather you were doing something to the server the last few days. Thanks for keeping BLML going.) From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Feb 10 03:58:37 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Thu Feb 10 03:58:32 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: <200502091939.j19Jdeis013335@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502091939.j19Jdeis013335@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <420ACDDD.1010603@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Sven Pran" > Quote: > 2.3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments > The following conventions or treatments are categorized as 'Brown Sticker': > a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that: > i) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below average > strength) AND > ii) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit. As I read this -- and I have no special knowledge other than reading the text -- if all of the hand types have at least 10 HCP (or equivalent) or all hand types promise >=4 cards in a known suit, the bid is not BS. If at least 1 hand type is weak _and_ at least one hand type fails to promise 4 cards in a known suit, the bid is BS unless the following exception applies: > EXCEPTION: > iii) The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit if it is > weak. If the bid does not show a known four card suit it must show a hand a > king or more over average strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak > meanings show at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong meanings > show a hand with a king or more above average strength, it is not a Brown > Sticker Convention.) What seems to have gone wrong here is that the definition of "weak" has changed. Let's define "strong" as 13+ HCP or the equivalent, and substitute "not strong" for "weak" in the above text. To not be BS, the bid can have any number of strong meanings, but all meanings that are not strong must show four cards in a known suit. At least I think that's what it says, but I'm not "qualified" in any demonstrable way. Is multi covered by a different exception? Seems to me it is BS with the above definition. > A team had declared various opening bids at the three-level > showing unknown suit(s) and at least 10 HCP. Looks OK to me; no need to worry about the exception. From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 10 04:10:35 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 10 04:10:38 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:57:28 EST." <420ACD98.5080509@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <200502100310.TAA03724@mailhub.irvine.com> Steve Willner wrote: > Here's a hand from this weekend's Grand National Open Teams District 25 > qualifying event. The competition was great, but in my opinion the > directing left something to be desired. I'd like to know what people > think about this one. > > IMP scoring, South deals, NS vul. > North holds: > AQxx - AKQJxx Qxx > NS play 2/1 with some gadgets, 1NT=15-17. South opens 1C, and with EW > passing throughout, the auction begins: > S N > 1C-1D > 1N-2H > 3H- > > The 2H bid should show hearts, but North misbid. In some similar > sequences (but not in this one) NS use 2H to show spades. North wakes up > when South doesn't alert the 2H bid, UI to North. In the actual > methods, 3H is a natural raise showing 4-card heart support. In North's > fantasy system, 3H shows 4-card _spade_ support, a non-minimum (enough > to accept a game try but limited by not having opened 1NT), and > high-card values in hearts. South would not have bid a 4c major over 1D > so could be 4=4=2=3 or could have balanced distribution with four clubs > and four of a major. > > The auction continues: > S N > -4D > 4H-4S > 5C-5D > 6H-6S > 6NT-P > > and 6NT makes. Which of North's bids is illegal after the UI, and what > contracts do you consider in a score adjustment? I don't see any of North's bids as illegal. None of them seems inconsistent with what he thought 2H showed, and what he thought 3H would mean in his "fantasy" system. 4D would be forcing since the partnership has agreed spades; 4S is a signoff since at that point North doesn't know whether South has a club control; 5D is a further slam exploration; 6H is weird enough to wake up North legitimately to the fact that the wheels have come off. My feeling is that trying to come up with logically alternative ways tnat North could have explored, and then trying to determine that one or the other was "suggested" by the UI, is splitting hairs too finely. -- Adam From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 10 06:49:10 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 10 06:49:26 2005 Subject: [blml] UI ad infinitum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John (MadDog) Probst: >>I think all UI bets are off once a hand has been scored. You can >>cheerfully say "O s**t, I forgot the agreement, lucky it didn't cost. >>Can we make sure we're in agreement now?" Law 16B: >When a player accidentally receives unauthorised information about a >board he ..... has **yet to play**, as ..... by overhearing ..... >remarks ..... the Director should be notified forthwith, preferably by >the recipient of the information ...... :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 10 07:01:44 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 10 07:02:02 2005 Subject: [blml] misconceptions about the laws In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In a private communication, another blmler suggested: >The phrase "at all probable" is an idiomatic expression meaning some >significant possibility, which the ACBLLC interpreted for the benefit of >TDs and ACs as one chance in six, a reasonable number if quantification >is necessary. > >Now it happens that nearly everyone in ACBL-land takes "probable" out of >context when referring to L12C2. This is a source of confusion, and the >lawmakers should fix L12C2 to convey the intent more clearly. From wqzhzyyhga at covad.net Thu Feb 10 07:33:35 2005 From: wqzhzyyhga at covad.net (Faye Jaramillo) Date: Thu Feb 10 07:41:46 2005 Subject: [blml] =?iso-8859-1?q?V=40lium_=F10w?= Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050210/be1e4bde/attachment.gif From toddz at att.net Thu Feb 10 08:44:23 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Thu Feb 10 08:44:32 2005 Subject: [blml] UI ad infinitum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <420B10D7.1020609@att.net> richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > John (MadDog) Probst: >>>I think all UI bets are off once a hand has been scored. > > Law 16B: > >>When a player accidentally receives unauthorised information about a >>board he ..... has **yet to play** If he hand is yet to be played, it's probably still yet to be scored. -Todd From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 10 09:52:19 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 10 09:52:22 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <420A9C25.5090602@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <000401c50f4d$d47bd1b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Wayne Burrows > I often seem to get UI cases wrong particularly when I am at the table. > In the worst case we had two appeals that occurred on consecutive boards > of the NZ Pairs championships. One we thought was clear cut and the > other dubious. We of course won the dubious appeal and lost the > clear-cut appeal and just to emphasize my misunderstanding we were fined > for bringing a frivolous appeal. But that is another story. > > One of the latest cases that I was involved in occurred in one of the > later rounds of the South West Pacific Teams in Canberra. It occurred > at table one which means that the players were at least semi-competent. > My opponents of course were more competent than we were. > > We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. > > Brd 8 > Nil Vul > Dlr West > > Pass Pass Pass 1S > Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter > Pass 3NT Pass ? > > AQJ763 > J > AQT2 > K9 > > The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. > > Can you pull 3NT? > > If you can what is the minimum change that you would make to the hand so > that Pass is a logical alternative that would be barred by the UI? Pardon me, my immediate reaction is that the one and only call which is suggested by the UI is indeed PASS and thus not legally available? The player _must_ bid as if the 3H bid was correctly understood. Doesn't this make the 3NT bid a positive response (slam interest) without any immediate cue bids available? If 4C now shows second control then I assume you must bid 4C. If 4C will show first control you are in trouble because you must bid 4S to show your first control there and hope for partner to bid 5C (second control) or 4NT (still interested in slam with no available cue bid) after which you can bid 5C (second control) to reach 6D. Maybe I have completely misunderstood something? (If 2D was a weak opening bid I do not understand the reason for using splinter at all. I would have bid 2S - forcing, and landed in either 4S or 5D depending upon partner's next call) Sven From qsonbmrmj at o2.pl Thu Feb 10 09:56:34 2005 From: qsonbmrmj at o2.pl (Bobbie Crosby) Date: Thu Feb 10 10:00:01 2005 Subject: [blml] Its for him and for her. Message-ID: <3DF4FB83.49004@ubp.edu.ar> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 13491 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050210/72423b03/attachment-0001.jpe From wayne.burrows at xtra.co.nz Thu Feb 10 10:35:05 2005 From: wayne.burrows at xtra.co.nz (Wayne Burrows) Date: Thu Feb 10 10:31:55 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <000401c50f4d$d47bd1b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000401c50f4d$d47bd1b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <420B2AC9.1060905@xtra.co.nz> Sven Pran wrote: >Wayne Burrows > > >>I often seem to get UI cases wrong particularly when I am at the table. >>In the worst case we had two appeals that occurred on consecutive boards >>of the NZ Pairs championships. One we thought was clear cut and the >>other dubious. We of course won the dubious appeal and lost the >>clear-cut appeal and just to emphasize my misunderstanding we were fined >>for bringing a frivolous appeal. But that is another story. >> >>One of the latest cases that I was involved in occurred in one of the >>later rounds of the South West Pacific Teams in Canberra. It occurred >>at table one which means that the players were at least semi-competent. >>My opponents of course were more competent than we were. >> >>We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. >> >>Brd 8 >>Nil Vul >>Dlr West >> >>Pass Pass Pass 1S >>Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter >>Pass 3NT Pass ? >> >>AQJ763 >>J >>AQT2 >>K9 >> >>The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. >> >>Can you pull 3NT? >> >>If you can what is the minimum change that you would make to the hand so >>that Pass is a logical alternative that would be barred by the UI? >> >> > >Pardon me, my immediate reaction is that the one and only call which is >suggested by the UI is indeed PASS and thus not legally available? > >The player _must_ bid as if the 3H bid was correctly understood. Doesn't >this make the 3NT bid a positive response (slam interest) without any >immediate cue bids available? > > Why wouldn't 3NT show wasted values in hearts and no slam interest. It could be done your way but there was no evidence presented to support that at the table. Wayne -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 7/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 10 10:32:56 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 10 10:33:01 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: <420ACDDD.1010603@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000701c50f53$822963e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Steve Willner .............. > Is multi covered by a different exception? Seems to me it is BS with > the above definition. The Norwegian regulation includes a separate exception: An opening bid of two in a minor suit that shows at least five cards in an unknown major suit is not a brown sticker. This bid does not require any strong option. Regards Sven From Harald.Skjaran at bridgefederation.no Thu Feb 10 10:36:59 2005 From: Harald.Skjaran at bridgefederation.no (Skjaran, Harald) Date: Thu Feb 10 10:34:11 2005 Subject: SV: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries Message-ID: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB27990001AFCCED@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> Sven Pran wrote: Wayne Burrows > I often seem to get UI cases wrong particularly when I am at the table. > In the worst case we had two appeals that occurred on consecutive boards > of the NZ Pairs championships. One we thought was clear cut and the > other dubious. We of course won the dubious appeal and lost the > clear-cut appeal and just to emphasize my misunderstanding we were fined > for bringing a frivolous appeal. But that is another story. > > One of the latest cases that I was involved in occurred in one of the > later rounds of the South West Pacific Teams in Canberra. It occurred > at table one which means that the players were at least semi-competent. > My opponents of course were more competent than we were. > > We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. > > Brd 8 > Nil Vul > Dlr West > > Pass Pass Pass 1S > Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter > Pass 3NT Pass ? > > AQJ763 > J > AQT2 > K9 > > The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. > > Can you pull 3NT? > > If you can what is the minimum change that you would make to the hand so > that Pass is a logical alternative that would be barred by the UI? Pardon me, my immediate reaction is that the one and only call which is suggested by the UI is indeed PASS and thus not legally available? The player _must_ bid as if the 3H bid was correctly understood. Doesn't this make the 3NT bid a positive response (slam interest) without any immediate cue bids available? If 4C now shows second control then I assume you must bid 4C. If 4C will show first control you are in trouble because you must bid 4S to show your first control there and hope for partner to bid 5C (second control) or 4NT (still interested in slam with no available cue bid) after which you can bid 5C (second control) to reach 6D. Maybe I have completely misunderstood something? ----- Sven, you have missed the opening bid. The bidding went: 1S - 2D 3H - 3N 3H was a splinter bid, not alerted. Over a splinter 3H, 3N is to play, showing a hand with lots of heart values, ie. KQJ9/KJT9 or something similar, and a hand not suited for a diamond slam(game). The UI of course suggest bidding on over 3N, and thus you have to pass if pass is a LA. Regards, Harald Skjaeran ----- (If 2D was a weak opening bid I do not understand the reason for using splinter at all. I would have bid 2S - forcing, and landed in either 4S or 5D depending upon partner's next call) Sven _______________________________________________ blml mailing list blml@amsterdamned.org http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From Martin.Sinot at Micronas.com Thu Feb 10 10:49:00 2005 From: Martin.Sinot at Micronas.com (Sinot Martin) Date: Thu Feb 10 10:49:07 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? Message-ID: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB1@rama.micronas.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org > [mailto:blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org]On Behalf Of Steve Willner > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 03:59 > To: blml@rtflb.org > Subject: Re: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? > Is multi covered by a different exception? Seems to me it is BS with > the above definition. That definition has a second exception which covers the Multi: EXCEPTION: A two level opening bid in a minor showing a weak two in either major, whether with or without the option of strong hand types, as described in the WBF Conventions Booklet. -- Martin Sinot From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 10 11:19:14 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 10 11:19:16 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <420B2AC9.1060905@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <000801c50f59$f8a38860$6900a8c0@WINXP> Wayne Burrows > Sven Pran wrote: > > >Wayne Burrows > > > > > >>I often seem to get UI cases wrong particularly when I am at the table. > >>In the worst case we had two appeals that occurred on consecutive boards > >>of the NZ Pairs championships. One we thought was clear cut and the > >>other dubious. We of course won the dubious appeal and lost the > >>clear-cut appeal and just to emphasize my misunderstanding we were fined > >>for bringing a frivolous appeal. But that is another story. > >> > >>One of the latest cases that I was involved in occurred in one of the > >>later rounds of the South West Pacific Teams in Canberra. It occurred > >>at table one which means that the players were at least semi-competent. > >>My opponents of course were more competent than we were. > >> > >>We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. > >> > >>Brd 8 > >>Nil Vul > >>Dlr West > >> > >>Pass Pass Pass 1S > >>Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter > >>Pass 3NT Pass ? > >> > >>AQJ763 > >>J > >>AQT2 > >>K9 > >> > >>The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. > >> > >>Can you pull 3NT? > >> > >>If you can what is the minimum change that you would make to the hand so > >>that Pass is a logical alternative that would be barred by the UI? > >> > >> > > > >Pardon me, my immediate reaction is that the one and only call which is > >suggested by the UI is indeed PASS and thus not legally available? > > > >The player _must_ bid as if the 3H bid was correctly understood. Doesn't > >this make the 3NT bid a positive response (slam interest) without any > >immediate cue bids available? > > > > > Why wouldn't 3NT show wasted values in hearts and no slam interest. It > could be done your way > but there was no evidence presented to support that at the table. It could of course, but the way I am familiar with splinter the one and only sign-off call is bidding the agreed trump suit, usually at the lowest available level or in case directly at game. Here that would be 4D or 5D (with 4D probably stronger as it leaves room for another invitation). Sven From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 10 11:25:54 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 10 11:25:57 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <89FD2BC254969C4297E82458BB27990001AFCCED@exchange.idrettsforbundet.no> Message-ID: <000b01c50f5a$e70f73b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Skjaran, Harald ............. > Sven, you have missed the opening bid. Oh dear, og dear. Indeed I have! > The bidding went: > 1S - 2D > 3H - 3N > > 3H was a splinter bid, not alerted. > > Over a splinter 3H, 3N is to play, showing a hand with lots of heart > values, ie. KQJ9/KJT9 or something similar, and a hand not suited for a > diamond slam(game). > > The UI of course suggest bidding on over 3N, and thus you have to pass > if pass is a LA. > > Regards, > Harald Skjaeran Absolutely, and thanks. Sven From ehaa at starpower.net Thu Feb 10 14:05:41 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Thu Feb 10 14:01:54 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <420ACD98.5080509@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <420ACD98.5080509@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050210075258.02a42930@pop.starpower.net> At 09:57 PM 2/9/05, Steve wrote: >Here's a hand from this weekend's Grand National Open Teams District 25 >qualifying event. The competition was great, but in my opinion the >directing left something to be desired. I'd like to know what people >think about this one. > >IMP scoring, South deals, NS vul. >North holds: >AQxx - AKQJxx Qxx >NS play 2/1 with some gadgets, 1NT=15-17. South opens 1C, and with EW >passing throughout, the auction begins: > S N >1C-1D >1N-2H >3H- > >The 2H bid should show hearts, but North misbid. In some similar >sequences (but not in this one) NS use 2H to show spades. North wakes up >when South doesn't alert the 2H bid, UI to North. In the actual >methods, 3H is a natural raise showing 4-card heart support. In North's >fantasy system, 3H shows 4-card _spade_ support, a non-minimum (enough >to accept a game try but limited by not having opened 1NT), and >high-card values in hearts. South would not have bid a 4c major over 1D >so could be 4=4=2=3 or could have balanced distribution with four clubs >and four of a major. > >The auction continues: > S N > -4D >4H-4S >5C-5D >6H-6S >6NT-P > >and 6NT makes. Which of North's bids is illegal after the UI, and what >contracts do you consider in a score adjustment? If it makes a >difference, South's actual hand was Kxx AJxx xx AJTx. With spades and >clubs 3-3 and the C-K onside, a grand slam in anything except hearts >will make if it's bid. There was no MI. It looks to me like North's bidding is consistent with his original incorrect interpretation of South's 3H bid: 4D and 5D were cooperating with partner's slam exploration, 4S and 6S were attempts to sign off in the presumptively agreed trump suit, and passing 6NT is appropriate after presumptively showing a good hand with values concentrated in diamonds and spades. Had North been attempting to take advantage of the UI, the auction would have been quite different (probably 3NT rather than 4D). There might be an argument that the UI led North to avoid cue-bidding his first-round heart control, but that's a bit too thin for my taste (one can always think of *something* if one is determined to justify an adverse ruling). Score stands. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From gordon at gordonrainsford.co.uk Thu Feb 10 17:00:00 2005 From: gordon at gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Thu Feb 10 17:00:12 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <000801c50f59$f8a38860$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000801c50f59$f8a38860$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <89c5d99a5360b2f8bc17f984a80bff3f@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 10 Feb 2005, at 10:19, Sven Pran wrote: > > It could of course, but the way I am familiar with splinter the one > and only > sign-off call is bidding the agreed trump suit, usually at the lowest > available level or in case directly at game. Not when the agreed suit is a minor. I'm with Wayne on this, and I don't think one can bid over 3NT in the given scenario. -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 10 17:25:11 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 10 17:25:17 2005 Subject: [blml] UI ad infinitum In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:49:10 +1100." Message-ID: <200502101625.IAA07819@mailhub.irvine.com> > John (MadDog) Probst: > > >>I think all UI bets are off once a hand has been scored. You can > >>cheerfully say "O s**t, I forgot the agreement, lucky it didn't cost. > >>Can we make sure we're in agreement now?" > > Law 16B: > > >When a player accidentally receives unauthorised information about a > >board he ..... has **yet to play**, as ..... by overhearing ..... > >remarks ..... the Director should be notified forthwith, preferably by > >the recipient of the information ...... > > :-) Yeah, but information about your agreements isn't information about a board. -- Adam From zjlhvfauaycmzo at cgocable.com Thu Feb 10 21:05:35 2005 From: zjlhvfauaycmzo at cgocable.com (Ira Mcwilliams) Date: Thu Feb 10 21:08:46 2005 Subject: [blml] =?iso-8859-1?q?Buy_X=E3=F1=E4x_=F10w?= Message-ID: <20050210200842.2AE5B1DC@rhubarb.custard.org> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050210/ead90cf1/attachment.gif From vrpzr at rr.com Thu Feb 10 20:35:14 2005 From: vrpzr at rr.com (Deana) Date: Thu Feb 10 21:58:24 2005 Subject: [blml] the thought of lung Message-ID: <82591033736788.17863.qmail@rr.com> This may be our last attempt to contact you, please do not wait until it's too late. Get your application in to us before r at es go up. 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Please click below and check out our offer. http://cayuga.pingopongos.com/?wid=100069 pancreatic ko circumcision dg arab sp siltstone ch swanky ee contentious jjt due gd raucous ujh virtual za behalf zlp rabbi zm driven tif britain pdb provost vs conflagration tv dugan xv commune ivu stigma dgc http://josephine.pingopongos.com/nomore.html From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 11 02:42:05 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 11 02:41:53 2005 Subject: [blml] A Short History of Texas In-Reply-To: <000901c50a99$3ad7ea70$599e4c51@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: A Short History of Texas, by Maurice Harrison-Gray (Bridge Magazine, December 1960) The epic pages of American history have been opened for us by Hollywood and the wide screen. Names like Gettysburg and the Little Big Horn have become as familiar as Waterloo and the Somme. Everyone is aware that in 1836, at a crumbling mission-fort known as The Alamo, 182 sons of Texas died with their boots on in the cause of independence. Let us spare a thought for those other heroes who have perished in the name of Texas. "Remember the Alamo" is no longer the rally cry; "Remember Texas" has taken its place. Strange entries began to appear on score sheets in our duplicate pairs contests. Why should one pair settle for four hearts, with a two-one trump fit, when all others playing their way had reached a laydown four spades? Some years ago the eventual winners of the Master Pairs had their fair share of unlucky boards. This was one of them: Dealer West: Nil vulnerable WEST EAST Q5 AK7632 KT964 2 K93 A75 KJ9 752 Game was cold as the cards lay in spades or no-trumps but the gallery at this table had cause to buzz like a beehive. The auction consisted of one no-trump by West and four *hearts* by East. "Sorry my trumps are so poor," said West waggishly as he put down dummy, but he bit his lip hard when his partner showed out on the second round of trumps. The contract was not made. Well, well, thought the onlookers, even a world champion can have a lapsus linguae; but why should East act like the injured party, with West bowing his head in shame? And why the cryptic reference to Texas? I could have put them wise, having witnessed the following rubber bridge episode only a few days earlier: Dealer North: Both vulnerable NORTH K9 QJ96 AKT8 KT7 WEST EAST 72 653 K83 A7542 976532 --- QJ A6432 SOUTH AQJT84 T QJ4 985 The bidding was routine: one no-trump by North, four spades by South. But not so the play. Thanks to a Mr McKenney, the defenders had quite a party. Trick 1: queen of clubs covered by the king and ace; Trick 2: *two* of clubs to the knave; Trick 3: *two* of diamonds and ruff by East; Trick 4: *three* of clubs and ruff by West; Trick 5: *nine* of diamonds and ruff by East; Trick 6: *two* of hearts to the king (South was already two down, so East could afford to show off); Trick 7: a third diamond ruff put the contract four down. A word about the personnel. South, a British international, was noted for his ready wit; North was an American visitor. "Your fault, partner," said South, recovering his poise, "You should open such hands with one spade. I raise you to four and you make it in comfort." "In Texas where I come from," drawled the stranger, "I could open that hand with one no-trump and still play it in four spades," he proceeded to explain. By this time, of course, everyone knows the big idea. In brief, let us say that South views a long string of hearts with little or nothing on the side after a strong 1NT by his partner and figures he is worth a shot at four hearts. But wouldn't it be nice if partner could play the hand withthe lead coming up to a tenace? The transfer is neatly effected by means of the Texas convention. South simply bids four in the next lower- ranking suit, in this case four diamonds; North converts to four hearts, knowing that to be partner's real suit, and there you are. Flawless and foolproof! Thus, on the hand from the Master Pairs, East judged that four spades might play better from the other side of the table. In the rubber bridge episode, a bid of four hearts could be converted to a viirtually unbeatable four spades. I say "virtually" because East had had time to find an ex post facto defence. "If it's my lead," he said, "I might well try a low heart." "Could be," North replied, "but it's not wise to make a lead like that if you ever come to Texas. Some of our boys still pack a gun." There is only one snag. The modern Texan faces a foe far more insidious than the Commanche, the Mexican and the Yankee carpetbagger. It is a new version of the civil war between North and South. This is what happens. North opens 1NT. South takes a deep breath and bids four hearts. As the proprieties bar him from adding, "Remember Texas," he is left to toil in four hearts by an absent-minded partner. Alternatively, South forgets the convention but North remembers. Even in the best circles we get episodes such as this: Dealer North: N-S vulnerable NORTH KT6 A2 K8654 AK3 WEST EAST A87 J5432 975 63 AQ92 T73 T95 J42 SOUTH Q9 KQJT84 J Q876 This hand came from the European Championship of 1958. The British North opened 1NT and South blandly bid four hearts. North was not the absent-minded one on this occasion; he transferred to four spades. South then woke up; the only way to clarify the situation, he decided, was to jump to six hearts. North grinned sardonically and passed. West does not appear to have noticed anything unusual in the proceedings; perhaps he was taken in by South's well- simulated air of insouciance. He led the ace of spades and South blanced when he saw that another ace was missing ... how was he going to talk his way out of this one? Strange to relate, the slam made. West felt that an attempt to cash his other ace, apart from insulting his opponents, would hand them the contract if South were void in diamonds; a passive spade continuation, he decided, was a much safer shot. The result was thus a unique triumph for the Anglo-Texas alliance. Would this slam have been bid (and made) if our pair had never heard of the convention? There was less justice on this one: Dealer South: N-S vulnerable NORTH K QJT873 AT972 T WEST EAST T94 87532 62 A54 J643 --- 7652 KQ843 SOUTH AQJ6 K9 KQ85 AJ9 In a recent pairs tournament North played this hand, at all tables but one, in six hearts or six diamonds; the contract was invariably made. There was one baffling entry on the score sheet: six hearts doubled, 200 to East- West. Was it a case of a revoke or pulling a wrong card? Then someone noticed that South had played the hand. The bidding, it transpired, had gone like this: SOUTH WEST NORTH EAST 2NT Pass 4D Pass 4H Pass 4NT(1) Pass 5H Pass 6H Dble(2) Pass Pass Pass (1) Blackwood (2) Lightner North was a player of imagination. He was going to be in six or seven as soon as he heard the opening bid, but it might pay to make South the declarer. The ace of spades might be missing, for instance: if South held the AQ of clubs, however, an opening club lead would present him with an overtrick and a possible top on the board. This was not a Texas success story. The contract was one down, West having concluded that the double called for a diamond lead. The hand that follows, from a teams' match, was another perverse affair: Dealer South: Both vulnerable NORTH QT2 A87642 A653 --- WEST EAST K63 98754 KJ95 3 T Q8 Q9764 KT532 SOUTH AJ QT KJ9742 AJ8 In Room 1, where South opened one diamond, he had no trouble in making a final contract of six diamonds. In Room 2, influenced by his tenaces, he bid one no-trump. "This is a hand for Texas if ever there was one," was the thought that struck his partner. All hope of reaching the only makeable slam vanished when North came forward with four diamonds. South duly converted, but a final contract of six hearts proved beyond his powers. Thus far I have dealt with the basic situation where a response of four diamonds or four hearts is converted to four hearts or four spades. As you will know, anything that comes from Texas has to be bigger and better. In due course, Mr Oswald Jacoby, of Dallas, produced a bigger and better convention, to be known as the Jacoby Transfer Bid. This is simply a logical extension. Why restrict yourself to using Texas at the four-level? For example, South opens 1NT and gets a response of two hearts which he converts to two spades; North will be able to pass with the equivalent of a weakness take-out into two spades with certain theoretical advantages. This refinement can be combined with the popular 1NT:2C convention; you can also throw in asking bid and other gadgets for good measure. Here is a pretty example from a European championship match between Austria and France: Dealer West: E-W vulnerable WEST EAST AT QJ9864 J76 A42 AKQ5 4 AQJ4 973 Austria made four spades with an overtrick. France did not fare so well after the following sequence: WEST EAST 2NT 3H 3S 4H Pass I have dropped a hint so you can imagine what happened. Suppose you are West. Haven taken the transfer, how would you react to East's bid of four hearts? He has clearly forgotten the convention and hearts are his real suit. I might add that, in my opinion, East deserved to be boiled in Texas oil. Anyone who makes an asking bid of *four hearts* after such a start is trying his partner too far. A variation on this theme: Dealer West: E-W vulnerable WEST EAST AQT7 J8 KJ2 Q98753 AJ 3 Q965 JT82 West bid 1NT and North came in with two diamonds. East wished to compete but a problem arose: he was unable to make a natural bid of two hearts, for that would sound like a request for a transfer to two spades. There was a neat way out - he could say three diamonds and pass West's conversion to three hearts. And so the auction proceeded: WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH 1NT 2D 3D 4D 4S Pass 5H Pass 6H Dble Pass Pass Pass The defence collected 1100 with the aid of a club ruff. One can hardly pin the blame on the Jacoby Transfer Bid, even supposing it was ever designed for such a situation; the trouble was that West took three diamonds to be a cue bid in the enemy suit. Even though most of our players stick to Texas at the four level, there is always the mnemonic factor and human frailty to contend with. A remedy was found by a group of players in Johannesburg. It came to the notice of two of our leading lights after a typical accident in a pairs tournament. West opened 1NT and passed his partner's bid of four hearts. North-South duly scored 300; elsewhere a contract of four spades gave 620 or 650 to East-West. "Texas is grand," said East, "but it's becoming rather expensive." One of the opponents chipped in: "We had the same problem until we switched to 'unforgettable Texas', you know, the South African version." This is the idea. A jump to four hearts is apt to sound like an everyday natural bid. A response of four clubs or four diamonds is far less familiar and the most scatter-brained partner will wake up to the fact that he is being asked to bid four hearts or four spades. A few days later, after deciding to adopt this variation, our two experts picked up the following in a Gold Cup match: Dealer West: Both vulnerable WEST EAST KT9 6 K943 QJT85 AK82 4 AT K98742 I believe in giving my readers some work to do, so you are asked to account for this sequence: WEST EAST 1NT 4C 4S 5C 5NT 6C 6NT Pass The first part is easy - East bid four clubs because he felt that four hearts, played by his partner, would be an ideal contract. but now another son of Texas appears on the scene, in the person of Mr John Gerber, of Houston. You are bound to have heard of his convention, which is used by many players. For example, West opens 2NT and East's hand is like: KQJ965 8 3 KQ952 East is solely concerned with the number of aces in his partner's hand. The bid that meets the caes is a Gerber four clubs. This calls on West to declarer his ace content in the Blackwood manner: four diamonds denies an ace, four hearts shows one ace, and so on. On the next round, should East be concerned with kings, he follows up with five clubs. By now, if you review the actual sequence, light will dawn. Our experts had overlooked a clash of conventions when they switched to South African Texas. From West's angle, four clubs was Gerber; so he showed his two aces. His partner's agonised attempt to find a resting place sounded like a further ask for kings; so he showed his three kings. The final contract went three down. The rival team stopped at five hearts, just made. Those who follow the Texas flag have something in common with the heroes of the Alamo. In most cases, as you will note, they die with their bidding boots on. From john at asimere.com Fri Feb 11 07:36:54 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Fri Feb 11 07:38:22 2005 Subject: [blml] UI ad infinitum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , richard.hills@immi.gov.au writes > > > > >John (MadDog) Probst: > >>>I think all UI bets are off once a hand has been scored. You can >>>cheerfully say "O s**t, I forgot the agreement, lucky it didn't cost. >>>Can we make sure we're in agreement now?" > >Law 16B: > >>When a player accidentally receives unauthorised information about a >>board he ..... has **yet to play**, as ..... by overhearing ..... >>remarks ..... the Director should be notified forthwith, preferably by >>the recipient of the information ...... the UI doesn't relate to the board yet to play. You didn't hear "We play stupid carding methods" you heard "I wonder how many will bid the slam". The former is not UI related to a board yet to play, but the latter is. I don't give way on this one Richard :) > >:-) > > >Best wishes > >Richard Hills >Movie grognard and general guru > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From mkrgphoxm at playprofi.com Sat Feb 12 05:50:21 2005 From: mkrgphoxm at playprofi.com (Annmarie Burch) Date: Sat Feb 12 05:51:32 2005 Subject: [blml] Drugs sale Dewayne Message-ID: Big sale on Vicodin and other drugs. You wont find better prices anywhere! Vicodin - 90 PiIls - 178$ Viagra - 100 PilIs - 209.99$ Cialis - 90 PiIls - 324$ Ambien - 120 PilIs - 249$ Xanax - 90 PiIls - 299$ and many more... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050212/302cb8b9/attachment.gif From Hostforbulk at freemail.soim.com Sat Feb 12 14:02:30 2005 From: Hostforbulk at freemail.soim.com (Mark) Date: Sat Feb 12 14:05:20 2005 Subject: [blml] Marketing Service Message-ID: <20050212130502.E366E27@rhubarb.custard.org> To BLML@rtflb.org: Email is the best marketing tool. We offer E-Marketing with quality service. 1. Target Email Addresses We can provide target e-mail addresses you need, which are compiled only on your order. We will customize your customer email addresses. * We have millions of email addresses in a wide variety of categories. 2. Send out Target Emails for you We can send your email message to your target customers! We will customize your email addresses and send your message for you. More information: www.marketingforme.com * We also offer Web Hosting & mailing dedicated server. 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Mark Sale Support Sales@marketingforme.com No Thanks: AuYou@Hotmail.com?subject=blml@rtflb.org From blml at blakjak.com Sat Feb 12 15:25:38 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Sat Feb 12 15:27:08 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <000401c50f4d$d47bd1b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <420A9C25.5090602@xtra.co.nz> <000401c50f4d$d47bd1b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <4zJRQ1FiHhDCFweH@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Sven Pran wrote >Wayne Burrows >> Pass Pass Pass 1S >> Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter >> Pass 3NT Pass ? >(If 2D was a weak opening bid I do not understand the reason for using >splinter at all. I would have bid 2S - forcing, and landed in either 4S or >5D depending upon partner's next call) I think you may have missed the 1S opening. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From wusqkkbvkgckd at internetclub.at Sat Feb 12 17:00:21 2005 From: wusqkkbvkgckd at internetclub.at (Michael Pollock) Date: Sat Feb 12 17:00:26 2005 Subject: [blml] do you hate traffic cameras? Message-ID: <1024322514.9995.11.camel@dell_ss3.pdx.osdl.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050212/a6cfa9ea/attachment.html From svenpran at online.no Sat Feb 12 17:11:56 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Sat Feb 12 17:12:05 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <4zJRQ1FiHhDCFweH@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000001c5111d$92c4ec30$6900a8c0@WINXP> David Stevenson > Sven Pran wrote > >Wayne Burrows > > >> Pass Pass Pass 1S > >> Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter > >> Pass 3NT Pass ? > > >(If 2D was a weak opening bid I do not understand the reason for using > >splinter at all. I would have bid 2S - forcing, and landed in either 4S > or > >5D depending upon partner's next call) > > I think you may have missed the 1S opening. I did indeed, and Harald already notified me. Sven From QQJJPQSPSPYCKN at fcsintjozef.be Sat Feb 12 17:25:11 2005 From: QQJJPQSPSPYCKN at fcsintjozef.be (Donna Bentley) Date: Sat Feb 12 17:26:17 2005 Subject: [blml] Get Tiberius Erectus, the 100% natural viagra supplement! Message-ID: <0.89743.3132363037393934.4@ientrynetwork.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050212/ddbe1c55/attachment.html From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Sat Feb 12 18:11:32 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Sat Feb 12 18:11:39 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? Message-ID: <420E38C4.4030104@cfa.harvard.edu> Following up on my message of a few days ago. > The 2H bid should show hearts, but North misbid. ... North wakes up > when South doesn't alert the 2H bid, UI to North. Thanks to those who commented. I was glad to see the answers, because I was the somnolent North. I found avoiding taking advantage of the UI a very hard problem at the table -- a good incentive to remember our agreements in future! Of course I called the director immediately after the opening lead. She had trouble grasping the problem. To be fair, she has probably never known anyone to use transfers in this sort of sequence. Finally she issued what I call The ACBL All-Purpose Ruling, "Call me back if anyone thinks there is damage." I am still not sure either the opponents or the director really understood what happened. We gained 2 IMPs on the board; our counterparts at the other table were in 6D. We had two other director calls during the weekend. That's a lot, and I don't think the directors did an adequate job in either one. One call was a standard MI/UI case: an opponent doubled, intended as a support double but not alerted. The opponent then supported his partner's suit on the next round. The opponent explained the MI before the opening lead, and we called the TD. The TD gave The ACBL All-Purpose Ruling, failing to offer us the chance to change our final pass. (We wouldn't have done so, I think.) It looked to me as though dummy's final bid was illegal, the hand showing no special reason to repeat the support he supposedly had already shown. In practice the contract failed, and we didn't call the director back. We might have been damaged an IMP or two if the alternate contract would have gone down more, but we didn't inspect all the hands. The third call was a tempo situation: 2D ..P P x, and now the 2D bidder called the TD. The TD gave The ACBL All-Purpose Ruling, and even when requested to do so, he refused to rule whether the pass was in tempo or not. I know it will be difficult for the TD to determine the facts, but doesn't he have to try? How are we supposed to continue the auction without knowing whether there are UI restrictions or not? From anne.jones1 at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 12 22:54:44 2005 From: anne.jones1 at ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Sat Feb 12 22:54:52 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? References: <420E38C4.4030104@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <002a01c5114d$77fa1800$e8320952@AnnesComputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Willner" To: Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? > Following up on my message of a few days ago. > >> The 2H bid should show hearts, but North misbid. ... North wakes up >> when South doesn't alert the 2H bid, UI to North. > > Thanks to those who commented. I was glad to see the answers, because I > was the somnolent North. I found avoiding taking advantage of the UI a > very hard problem at the table -- a good incentive to remember our > agreements in future! > > Of course I called the director immediately after the opening lead. She > had trouble grasping the problem. To be fair, she has probably never > known anyone to use transfers in this sort of sequence. Finally she > issued what I call The ACBL All-Purpose Ruling, "Call me back if anyone > thinks there is damage." I am still not sure either the opponents or the > director really understood what happened. We gained 2 IMPs on the board; > our counterparts at the other table were in 6D. > > We had two other director calls during the weekend. That's a lot, and I > don't think the directors did an adequate job in either one. > > One call was a standard MI/UI case: an opponent doubled, intended as a > support double but not alerted. The opponent then supported his partner's > suit on the next round. The opponent explained the MI before the opening > lead, and we called the TD. The TD gave The ACBL All-Purpose Ruling, > failing to offer us the chance to change our final pass. (We wouldn't > have done so, I think.) It looked to me as though dummy's final bid was > illegal, the hand showing no special reason to repeat the support he > supposedly had already shown. In practice the contract failed, and we > didn't call the director back. We might have been damaged an IMP or two > if the alternate contract would have gone down more, but we didn't inspect > all the hands. > > The third call was a tempo situation: 2D ..P P x, and now the 2D bidder > called the TD. The TD gave The ACBL All-Purpose Ruling, and even when > requested to do so, he refused to rule whether the pass was in tempo or > not. I know it will be difficult for the TD to determine the facts, but > doesn't he have to try? How are we supposed to continue the auction > without knowing whether there are UI restrictions or not? > The TD can ascertain the facts after the play of the hand. Did you want the TD to look at the cards and shake his head gravely and say "I rule that you are unlikely to have passed in tempo on that hand". UI from the TD is something players can do without!! Anne > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From obrozyoumzjcb at comcast.net Sun Feb 13 10:34:30 2005 From: obrozyoumzjcb at comcast.net (Emilia Dickson) Date: Sun Feb 13 10:34:41 2005 Subject: [blml] Surpesfat dielrvey Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050213/b2740b85/attachment.gif From LVFTCLUPAGBT at kell.kirov.ru Sun Feb 13 11:32:11 2005 From: LVFTCLUPAGBT at kell.kirov.ru (Isabelle Gibbs) Date: Sun Feb 13 11:37:42 2005 Subject: [blml] don`t be a moron Roslyn Message-ID: <6.8.2.7.2.2005059.00b0a70@designs.com> Offshore pharm wish you all best in New Year! We will offer you best prices on any meds you need Viagra Cialis Valium Xanax and much more.. Please click below and check out our offer. http://crafty.integritypharm.com/?wid=100069 headsmen lf blade tl detain zpz discreet qsh die qbn nonce tgx bordeaux kyh pyknotic te fungus ma opossum gcf iliad vi rag dt quiver che sister fiw http://nutcrack.integritypharm.com/nomore.html From praremo at velnet.co.uk Sun Feb 13 11:47:36 2005 From: praremo at velnet.co.uk (ruthe mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 13 13:17:09 2005 Subject: [blml] Proven 100% Automated System! can earn you 6 Figure Income Online! Message-ID: 100% Automated System! can earn you 6 Figure Income Online! Learn How To realize "P R O F I T S" of 100,000US Online this Year .with our easy to use automated system A Business Based out of your home - This Automated Marketing System Does It for YOU! Earn 1000.00US per sale on "Auto-Pilot!" Automated System To Make Cash Flow Online! Our System does 98% of the W O R K for you! . . . . . .No more long hours prospecting! Join a company that is serious about your success. Do you want time and freedom? Start Making a Huge Income Watch Our 6 Minute Video! Take Action Today! Go HERE TO WATCH THE VIDEO! http://X.nsal.megasaleitems.com/bl/ He dropped downward until he was about a hundred feet above the water, when he continued his northwesterly course. But now he regretted having interfered for a moment with the action of the machine, for his progress, instead of being swift as a bird's flight, became slow and jerky, nor was he sure that the damaged machine might not break down altogether at any moment Yet so far his progress was in the right direction, and he resolved to experiment no further with the instrument, but to let it go as it would, so long as it supported him above the water From gesta at tiscali.co.uk Sun Feb 13 14:54:23 2005 From: gesta at tiscali.co.uk (Grattan) Date: Sun Feb 13 15:02:25 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? References: <200502091939.j19Jdeis013335@cfa.harvard.edu> <420ACDDD.1010603@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000001c511d4$b314c930$60dc403e@Mildred> Grattan Endicott To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:58 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? > > What seems to have gone wrong here is that the definition of "weak" has > changed. Let's define "strong" as 13+ HCP or the equivalent, and > substitute "not strong" for "weak" in the above text. To not be BS, the > bid can have any number of strong meanings, but all meanings that are > not strong must show four cards in a known suit. > > At least I think that's what it says, but I'm not "qualified" in any > demonstrable way. > +=+ I do not think that anything has "gone wrong" here. The definition of 'weak' determines whether a bid may be BS under section 2.4(a) of the System Policy. If it could be weak as defined then it is BS unless all the possibilities that are not 'strong' as defined are guaranteed to include at least four cards in the known anchor suit. I believe it says this quite clearly and I do not understand the difficulty. Bids which incorporate no weak possibility as defined are not caught in the BS net under 2.4(a). But when there is such a weak possibility any meanings in the 10-12 HCP range are also required to guarantee the anchor suit. I am speaking, of course, of the WBF Systems Policy. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From ufnazlwatcx at hotmail.com Sun Feb 13 16:14:33 2005 From: ufnazlwatcx at hotmail.com (Matthew Mcgill) Date: Sun Feb 13 16:15:51 2005 Subject: [blml] Vicoodin and Viaggra Heree 2vi Message-ID: <22591130090241.CFB0845DE@brave.starnetusa.net> Our Pharmacy Offerss of the month: Viicodin $119 (30 pi||s) Viaggra $129 (30 pil|s) Cia|lis $149 (30 pills) Val|ium $89 (30 pi|ls) Xanaax $109 (30 pil|s) Soma $109 (30 pi|ls) More offerss for bulk purchase While stock last.. http://www.getbestmeds.com lD3i873xCltf9DCDdXHL4XLysEn52di6EqrVlql41Ww5 From OLBXN at businessreferralnet.com Sun Feb 13 18:51:55 2005 From: OLBXN at businessreferralnet.com (Stacie Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 13 19:00:03 2005 Subject: [blml] Get it now - Vicodin Truman Message-ID: <20780403495750.A31740@xearthlink.net> Big sale on Vicodin and other drugs. You wont find better prices anywhere! Vicodin - 90 PiIls - 178$ Viagra - 100 PilIs - 209.99$ Cialis - 90 PiIls - 324$ Ambien - 120 PilIs - 249$ Xanax - 90 PiIls - 299$ and many more... Please click below and check out our offer. http://middlebury.veryfastviagra.info/in.php?aid=44 %TEXT[2-5] %TEXT[2-5] From blml at blakjak.com Sun Feb 13 18:59:45 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Sun Feb 13 19:01:11 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book Message-ID: <9YVgamIRW5DCFw8s@blakjak.demon.co.uk> As many of you know, I am the editor of the EBU Orange book, used by the EBU and WBU and other English and Welsh organisations. It contains Regulations and Permitted Agreements. If any of you do not have a copy then you can find a downloadable copy at http://www.ebu.co.uk/laws_ethics/articles/orangebook/default.htm For some time now we have been soliciting comments on changes to be made in the new one. While we have dealt with much feedback there is still a fair amount of time: the earliest possible publication date is 1-1-6. There is no intention for much change except to alerting and permitted agreements, which have been discussed and decided, but the results are not set in stone. If you want to make feedback about these or other items then write to the EBU L&EC Secretary, Nick Doe But I am really writing about something different. That is style, presentation, and detail. Any comments on these matters would be appreciated, direct to me, at the eddress or Fax number below. I am expected to produce a draft by 1-4-5. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Sun Feb 13 19:04:35 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Sun Feb 13 19:05:51 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU website Message-ID: The long awaited upgrade to the L&EC section of the EBU website has happened, and everyone is invited to have a look. You will find Orange and White books, lists of TDs and Referees [including late night TDs, who naturally subscribe to BLML], Laws, articles, forms for TDs, publications, convention cards, and lots more. http://www.ebu.co.uk/laws_ethics/default.htm While I did not design it - that is the webmistress' job - I was responsible for the content. So if you think anything is missing please let me know at the eddress or Fax number below. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From adam at tameware.com Sun Feb 13 21:00:45 2005 From: adam at tameware.com (Adam Wildavsky) Date: Sun Feb 13 21:01:15 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041201084708.02aa64f0@pop.starpower.net> References: <41ABEAF5.7090700@immi.gov.au> <6.1.1.1.0.20041201084708.02aa64f0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: At 9:05 AM -0500 12/1/04, Eric Landau wrote: >At 12:05 AM 12/1/04, richard.hills wrote: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/2004-November/019167.html >Given that qualification, Richard is quite correct. If the >committee did successfully show a possible connection between the UI >and the SA play (arguable) there's no reason not to adjust for both >sides, and if they didn't there are no grounds for adjusting at all. We deliberated at length and agreed that the UI demonstrably suggested the SA play over the D5 play. That said, I thought the ruling was illegal for precisely the reason mentioned by Richard and Eric. If the SA play was an illegal choice then we had to adjust to the likely and at all probable results had the D5 been played, namely contract making. In spite of chairing the committee I was unable to make this point stick. This was in part because Howard Weinstein was a member of the AC and promoted his approach that the irregularity referred to in 12C2 is not the illegal call or play but the combination of the action that caused the UI along with the illegal call or play. For more on this see my casebook comments at http://web2.acbl.org/casebooks/renoappeals2004.pdf An AC could award a split score legally by ruling no adjustment and imposing a procedural penalty on EW on account of East's improper remark. The staff comment in the casebook suggests doing just that. -- Adam Wildavsky http://www.tameware.com From svenpran at online.no Sun Feb 13 22:09:24 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Sun Feb 13 22:09:29 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: <000001c511d4$b314c930$60dc403e@Mildred> Message-ID: <000001c51210$4b91cbf0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Grattan Endicott > What seems to have gone wrong here is that the definition of "weak" has > > changed. Let's define "strong" as 13+ HCP or the equivalent, and > > substitute "not strong" for "weak" in the above text. To not be BS, the > > bid can have any number of strong meanings, but all meanings that are > > not strong must show four cards in a known suit. > > > > At least I think that's what it says, but I'm not "qualified" in any > > demonstrable way. > > > +=+ I do not think that anything has "gone wrong" here. The definition > of 'weak' determines whether a bid may be BS under section 2.4(a) of > the System Policy. If it could be weak as defined then it is BS unless all > the possibilities that are not 'strong' as defined are guaranteed to > include > at least four cards in the known anchor suit. I believe it says this > quite > clearly and I do not understand the difficulty. > Bids which incorporate no weak possibility as defined are not > caught in the BS net under 2.4(a). But when there is such a weak > possibility any meanings in the 10-12 HCP range are also required to > guarantee the anchor suit. > I am speaking, of course, of the WBF Systems Policy. > ~ Grattan ~ +=+ The problem arose from the following simple question on which I had to rule during the Norwegian masters' league: Can an opening bid in the range 2C through 3S be a BS if it always promises at least 10 HCP? (No "weak" possibility when "weak" is defined as less than average strength) (The applicable part of WBF systems policy has been directly translated into the corresponding Norwegian systems policy) I shall appreciate a clear answer "yes" or "no". Regards Sven From selena at indogroove.net Sun Feb 13 23:04:52 2005 From: selena at indogroove.net (janeen spencer) Date: Mon Feb 14 00:12:18 2005 Subject: [blml] Powerful 100% Automated System! can earn you 6 Figure Income Online! Message-ID: <67a601c51218$0b67e340$cb2b6c72@selena> Proven 100% Automated System! can earn you 6 Figure Income Online! Learn How To realize "P R O F I T S" of 100,000US Online this Year .with our easy to use automated system A Business Based out of your home - This Automated Marketing System Does It for YOU! Earn 1000.00US per sale on "Auto-Pilot!" Automated System To Make Cash Flow Online! Our System does 98% of the W O R K for you! . . . . . .No more long hours prospecting! Join a company that is serious about your success. Do you want time and freedom? Start Making a Huge Income Watch Our 6 Minute Video! Take Action Today! Go HERE TO WATCH THE VIDEO! http://nLje.lbov.besteveritems.com/bl/ There was scarcely any twilight in this tropical climate and it grew dark quickly. Within a few minutes the entire island, save where he stood, became dim and indistinct He ate his daily tablet, and after watching the red glow fade in the western sky and the gray shadows of night settle around him he stretched himself comfortably upon the grass and went to sleep From ppwbksyt at ombligo.com Mon Feb 14 00:17:30 2005 From: ppwbksyt at ombligo.com (Winifred) Date: Mon Feb 14 00:22:33 2005 Subject: [blml] Today fat tommorow slim Message-ID: <406401141618.AA1489791@client.comcast.net> Introducing the amazing BodyWrap. Want to be thin fast? Look no further. BodyWrap guarantees you'll lose 6-8 inches in HOURS! Stop waiting months to see results and begin 2005 a new you. http://diploidy.clikbusiness.info panorama xc mantic bb mead dxb efficacy ed where'd gra ballroom kca scott dtb earthshaking dkz emergent kyl different obn shipmate zqe jerry qhm http://www.clikbusiness.info/r From john at asimere.com Mon Feb 14 06:12:22 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Mon Feb 14 06:13:54 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation Message-ID: So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, is to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's a l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to perfect balance. Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 (US=6). Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the percentages. How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both methods, but I might not have been able to. I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From fskhglcdl at comcast.net Mon Feb 14 08:23:22 2005 From: fskhglcdl at comcast.net (Bart Reyes) Date: Mon Feb 14 08:29:34 2005 Subject: [blml] Odrer n svae Message-ID: <20050214072925.5EBFB234@rhubarb.custard.org> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050214/0f69068a/attachment-0001.gif From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 14 09:41:43 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 14 09:40:49 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42106447.5040505@hdw.be> John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, > high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 > rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. > > The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, is > to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the > first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell > in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of > session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's a > l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to > perfect balance. > > Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a > top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 > (US=6). > > Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? > It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the > percentages. Indeed. Self-evident to you and me - now let's convince the rest of the world. In fact, I remember from a private conversation that Ton agrees with us, but we have yet to se a wbf proclamation on the issue. > How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get > two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add > the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. > How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first > session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? > This is my preferred method. The other one is plainly wrong. > Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but > only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as > the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? > That is introducing a less than perfect element into a quite perfect movement. It should be avoided. > I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring > program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one > incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a > small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both > methods, but I might not have been able to. > You're luckier than I was when something like this happened a dozen years ago in the Antwerp' Ladies' Pairs. We declared 2 champions. My opinion is that if you want to have a movement in which you play 4 boards against some opponents and 3 against some others, then that is what you have. Every board should count equal though. So Neubergize one session or another (that does not change the final result - but see below *) and simply add the points. (*) Yes it does. If you have some Av+ in there, Neubergizing the total session score should be avoided, since an Av+ would change to some other number. Av+ should be added after the adding, but then again it matters in what session you add the Av+. > I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 14 10:29:01 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 14 10:29:13 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <42106447.5040505@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000b01c51277$9e3c3040$6900a8c0@WINXP> For what it is worth, let me contribute with how I believe most of us have come to solve such "problems" in Norway: 1: We calculate all scores as percentage scores. 2: We weight each session (percentage) score with the number of boards played in that session. 3: We add the resulting weighted (percentage) scores. One consequence is of course what most people will find fair: If you play one session with 40 boards, two sessions with 20 boards each or three sessions with 20, 10 and 10 boards respectively the final result will be unaffected by how the event has been split into sessions. Regards Sven > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org [mailto:blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org] > On Behalf Of Herman De Wael > Sent: 14. februar 2005 09:42 > To: blml > Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > > John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > > > So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, > > high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 > > rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. > > > > The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, is > > to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the > > first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell > > in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of > > session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's a > > l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to > > perfect balance. > > > > Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a > > top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 > > (US=6). > > > > Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? > > It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the > > percentages. > > Indeed. Self-evident to you and me - now let's convince the rest of > the world. > In fact, I remember from a private conversation that Ton agrees with > us, but we have yet to se a wbf proclamation on the issue. > > > How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get > > two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add > > the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. > > How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first > > session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? > > > > This is my preferred method. The other one is plainly wrong. > > > Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but > > only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as > > the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? > > > > That is introducing a less than perfect element into a quite perfect > movement. It should be avoided. > > > I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring > > program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one > > incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a > > small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both > > methods, but I might not have been able to. > > > > You're luckier than I was when something like this happened a dozen > years ago in the Antwerp' Ladies' Pairs. We declared 2 champions. > > My opinion is that if you want to have a movement in which you play 4 > boards against some opponents and 3 against some others, then that is > what you have. Every board should count equal though. So Neubergize > one session or another (that does not change the final result - but > see below *) and simply add the points. > > (*) Yes it does. If you have some Av+ in there, Neubergizing the total > session score should be avoided, since an Av+ would change to some > other number. Av+ should be added after the adding, but then again it > matters in what session you add the Av+. > > > I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John > > -- > Herman DE WAEL > Antwerpen Belgium > http://www.hdw.be > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 14 10:37:39 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 14 10:36:47 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42107163.4070908@hdw.be> I have just done a simulation, and it turns out that the following method is a correct one: -detach all AS from the first session -Neubergize the first session, normal boards -add the AS, on the basis of the top for the second session -add the points from the second session -if necessary, correct for differing number of boards played This method yields the same result as Ascherman and must therefor be correct. John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, > high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 > rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. > > The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, is > to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the > first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell > in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of > session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's a > l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to > perfect balance. > > Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a > top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 > (US=6). > > Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? > It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the > percentages. > How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get > two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add > the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. > How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first > session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? > > Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but > only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as > the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? > > I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring > program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one > incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a > small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both > methods, but I might not have been able to. > > I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 14 12:32:10 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 14 12:31:20 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000b01c51277$9e3c3040$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000b01c51277$9e3c3040$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <42108C3A.7040201@hdw.be> This is the correct method, provided that all boards are calculated using the same "top". If that is not the case, the percentages ought to be recalculated using the right top. This can be done by Neubergizing every board separately, or by Neubergizing the entire session. In that case however, AS ought to be treated separately and not Neubergized along. Sven Pran wrote: > For what it is worth, let me contribute with how I believe most of us have > come to solve such "problems" in Norway: > > 1: We calculate all scores as percentage scores. > 2: We weight each session (percentage) score with the number of boards > played in that session. > 3: We add the resulting weighted (percentage) scores. > > One consequence is of course what most people will find fair: > > If you play one session with 40 boards, two sessions with 20 boards each or > three sessions with 20, 10 and 10 boards respectively the final result will > be unaffected by how the event has been split into sessions. > > Regards Sven > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org [mailto:blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org] >>On Behalf Of Herman De Wael >>Sent: 14. februar 2005 09:42 >>To: blml >>Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation >> >>John (MadDog) Probst wrote: >> >> >>>So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, >>>high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 >>>rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. >>> >>>The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, is >>>to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the >>>first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell >>>in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of >>>session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's a >>>l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to >>>perfect balance. >>> >>>Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a >>>top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 >>>(US=6). >>> >>>Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? >>>It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the >>>percentages. >> >>Indeed. Self-evident to you and me - now let's convince the rest of >>the world. >>In fact, I remember from a private conversation that Ton agrees with >>us, but we have yet to se a wbf proclamation on the issue. >> >> >>>How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get >>>two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add >>>the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. >>>How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first >>>session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? >>> >> >>This is my preferred method. The other one is plainly wrong. >> >> >>>Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but >>>only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as >>>the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? >>> >> >>That is introducing a less than perfect element into a quite perfect >>movement. It should be avoided. >> >> >>>I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring >>>program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one >>>incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a >>>small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both >>>methods, but I might not have been able to. >>> >> >>You're luckier than I was when something like this happened a dozen >>years ago in the Antwerp' Ladies' Pairs. We declared 2 champions. >> >>My opinion is that if you want to have a movement in which you play 4 >>boards against some opponents and 3 against some others, then that is >>what you have. Every board should count equal though. So Neubergize >>one session or another (that does not change the final result - but >>see below *) and simply add the points. >> >>(*) Yes it does. If you have some Av+ in there, Neubergizing the total >>session score should be avoided, since an Av+ would change to some >>other number. Av+ should be added after the adding, but then again it >>matters in what session you add the Av+. >> >> >>>I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John >> >>-- >>Herman DE WAEL >>Antwerpen Belgium >>http://www.hdw.be >> >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this outgoing message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blml mailing list >>blml@amsterdamned.org >>http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From Martin.Sinot at Micronas.com Mon Feb 14 12:41:20 2005 From: Martin.Sinot at Micronas.com (Sinot Martin) Date: Mon Feb 14 12:41:35 2005 Subject: [blml] Lead required Message-ID: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com> South is declarer in some contract. East leads a heart (OOT). Declarer now requires a heart lead. West leads the HA, making. What should West do in trick two? Must he play a heart again or can he play something else? -- Martin Sinot From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 14 13:04:23 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 14 13:03:38 2005 Subject: [blml] Lead required In-Reply-To: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com> References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: <421093C7.4050402@hdw.be> he can lead anything. only when a suit is prohibited is this for as long as the player stays on lead. Sinot Martin wrote: > South is declarer in some contract. East leads a heart (OOT). > Declarer now requires a heart lead. West leads the HA, making. > What should West do in trick two? Must he play a heart again > or can he play something else? > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 14 13:11:40 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 14 13:11:53 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <42108C3A.7040201@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000001c5128e$574e4350$6900a8c0@WINXP> We do. Incidentally as all our scoring and calculations are done relative to average (not upwards from zero) you may convince yourself that we actually use Acherman's formula (although we do use the name Neuberg) and thus also avoid the special "problems" that may occur in certain cases with Neuberg. Sven Herman De Wael > This is the correct method, provided that all boards are calculated > using the same "top". > If that is not the case, the percentages ought to be recalculated > using the right top. This can be done by Neubergizing every board > separately, or by Neubergizing the entire session. In that case > however, AS ought to be treated separately and not Neubergized along. > > Sven Pran wrote: > > > For what it is worth, let me contribute with how I believe most of us > have > > come to solve such "problems" in Norway: > > > > 1: We calculate all scores as percentage scores. > > 2: We weight each session (percentage) score with the number of boards > > played in that session. > > 3: We add the resulting weighted (percentage) scores. > > > > One consequence is of course what most people will find fair: > > > > If you play one session with 40 boards, two sessions with 20 boards each > or > > three sessions with 20, 10 and 10 boards respectively the final result > will > > be unaffected by how the event has been split into sessions. > > > > Regards Sven > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org [mailto:blml- > bounces@amsterdamned.org] > >>On Behalf Of Herman De Wael > >>Sent: 14. februar 2005 09:42 > >>To: blml > >>Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > >> > >>John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > >> > >> > >>>So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, > >>>high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 > >>>rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. > >>> > >>>The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, > is > >>>to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the > >>>first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell > >>>in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of > >>>session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's > a > >>>l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to > >>>perfect balance. > >>> > >>>Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a > >>>top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 > >>>(US=6). > >>> > >>>Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? > >>>It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the > >>>percentages. > >> > >>Indeed. Self-evident to you and me - now let's convince the rest of > >>the world. > >>In fact, I remember from a private conversation that Ton agrees with > >>us, but we have yet to se a wbf proclamation on the issue. > >> > >> > >>>How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get > >>>two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add > >>>the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. > >>>How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first > >>>session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? > >>> > >> > >>This is my preferred method. The other one is plainly wrong. > >> > >> > >>>Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but > >>>only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as > >>>the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? > >>> > >> > >>That is introducing a less than perfect element into a quite perfect > >>movement. It should be avoided. > >> > >> > >>>I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring > >>>program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one > >>>incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a > >>>small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both > >>>methods, but I might not have been able to. > >>> > >> > >>You're luckier than I was when something like this happened a dozen > >>years ago in the Antwerp' Ladies' Pairs. We declared 2 champions. > >> > >>My opinion is that if you want to have a movement in which you play 4 > >>boards against some opponents and 3 against some others, then that is > >>what you have. Every board should count equal though. So Neubergize > >>one session or another (that does not change the final result - but > >>see below *) and simply add the points. > >> > >>(*) Yes it does. If you have some Av+ in there, Neubergizing the total > >>session score should be avoided, since an Av+ would change to some > >>other number. Av+ should be added after the adding, but then again it > >>matters in what session you add the Av+. > >> > >> > >>>I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John > >> > >>-- > >>Herman DE WAEL > >>Antwerpen Belgium > >>http://www.hdw.be > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>No virus found in this outgoing message. > >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>blml mailing list > >>blml@amsterdamned.org > >>http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blml mailing list > > blml@amsterdamned.org > > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > > > -- > Herman DE WAEL > Antwerpen Belgium > http://www.hdw.be > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 14 13:18:42 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 14 13:18:51 2005 Subject: [blml] Lead required In-Reply-To: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: <000301c5128f$53fcb1e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Sinot Martin > Sent: 14. februar 2005 12:41 > To: Bridge Laws (E-mail) > Subject: [blml] Lead required > > South is declarer in some contract. East leads a heart (OOT). > Declarer now requires a heart lead. West leads the HA, making. > What should West do in trick two? Must he play a heart again > or can he play something else? In this case West is free to lead any card he may want to trick two. If declarer had prohibited West from leading a heart this prohibition would apply until another player had had the lead and then West obtained the lead again or until West has no other cards than hearts remaining in his hand. Regards Sven From schoderb at msn.com Mon Feb 14 13:34:09 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Mon Feb 14 13:35:13 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation References: Message-ID: How about one of these? 1. Play an "endless Howell" barometer where each session is really only a segment of the whole movement. 2. Factor the boards to the same top for both sessions. ACBLSCOR does this easily. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "John (MadDog) Probst" To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:12 AM Subject: [blml] multi session score computation > So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, > high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 > rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. > > The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, is > to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the > first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell > in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of > session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's a > l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to > perfect balance. > > Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a > top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 > (US=6). > > Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? > It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the > percentages. > How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get > two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add > the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. > How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first > session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? > > Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but > only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as > the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? > > I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring > program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one > incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a > small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both > methods, but I might not have been able to. > > I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John > -- > John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou > 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou > London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com > +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 14 14:30:42 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 14 14:30:01 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000001c5128e$574e4350$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000001c5128e$574e4350$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <4210A802.6080201@hdw.be> Hello Sven, Sven Pran wrote: > We do. > > Incidentally as all our scoring and calculations are done relative to > average (not upwards from zero) you may convince yourself that we actually > use Acherman's formula (although we do use the name Neuberg) and thus also > avoid the special "problems" that may occur in certain cases with Neuberg. > indeed this is true. How many points do you attribute for an AV+ though, Sven? If you are aligned with "me", you should use the number of results divided by 5 (or 10% of twice the number of scores) > Sven > > Herman De Wael > >>This is the correct method, provided that all boards are calculated >>using the same "top". >>If that is not the case, the percentages ought to be recalculated >>using the right top. This can be done by Neubergizing every board >>separately, or by Neubergizing the entire session. In that case >>however, AS ought to be treated separately and not Neubergized along. >> >>Sven Pran wrote: >> >> >>>For what it is worth, let me contribute with how I believe most of us >> >>have >> >>>come to solve such "problems" in Norway: >>> >>>1: We calculate all scores as percentage scores. >>>2: We weight each session (percentage) score with the number of boards >>>played in that session. >>>3: We add the resulting weighted (percentage) scores. >>> >>>One consequence is of course what most people will find fair: >>> >>>If you play one session with 40 boards, two sessions with 20 boards each >> >>or >> >>>three sessions with 20, 10 and 10 boards respectively the final result >> >>will >> >>>be unaffected by how the event has been split into sessions. >>> >>>Regards Sven >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org [mailto:blml- >> >>bounces@amsterdamned.org] >> >>>>On Behalf Of Herman De Wael >>>>Sent: 14. februar 2005 09:42 >>>>To: blml >>>>Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation >>>> >>>>John (MadDog) Probst wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, >>>>>high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 >>>>>rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. >>>>> >>>>>The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, >> >>is >> >>>>>to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the >>>>>first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell >>>>>in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of >>>>>session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's >> >>a >> >>>>>l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to >>>>>perfect balance. >>>>> >>>>>Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a >>>>>top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 >>>>>(US=6). >>>>> >>>>>Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? >>>>>It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the >>>>>percentages. >>>> >>>>Indeed. Self-evident to you and me - now let's convince the rest of >>>>the world. >>>>In fact, I remember from a private conversation that Ton agrees with >>>>us, but we have yet to se a wbf proclamation on the issue. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get >>>>>two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add >>>>>the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. >>>>>How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first >>>>>session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? >>>>> >>>> >>>>This is my preferred method. The other one is plainly wrong. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but >>>>>only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as >>>>>the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? >>>>> >>>> >>>>That is introducing a less than perfect element into a quite perfect >>>>movement. It should be avoided. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring >>>>>program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one >>>>>incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a >>>>>small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both >>>>>methods, but I might not have been able to. >>>>> >>>> >>>>You're luckier than I was when something like this happened a dozen >>>>years ago in the Antwerp' Ladies' Pairs. We declared 2 champions. >>>> >>>>My opinion is that if you want to have a movement in which you play 4 >>>>boards against some opponents and 3 against some others, then that is >>>>what you have. Every board should count equal though. So Neubergize >>>>one session or another (that does not change the final result - but >>>>see below *) and simply add the points. >>>> >>>>(*) Yes it does. If you have some Av+ in there, Neubergizing the total >>>>session score should be avoided, since an Av+ would change to some >>>>other number. Av+ should be added after the adding, but then again it >>>>matters in what session you add the Av+. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Herman DE WAEL >>>>Antwerpen Belgium >>>>http://www.hdw.be >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>No virus found in this outgoing message. >>>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>>>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>blml mailing list >>>>blml@amsterdamned.org >>>>http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>blml mailing list >>>blml@amsterdamned.org >>>http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >>> >>> >> >>-- >>Herman DE WAEL >>Antwerpen Belgium >>http://www.hdw.be >> >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this outgoing message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blml mailing list >>blml@amsterdamned.org >>http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Mon Feb 14 15:04:55 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Mon Feb 14 15:22:45 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation References: <42106447.5040505@hdw.be> Message-ID: <005a01c512a0$b1981a90$edfaf0c3@LNV> > John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > > > So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, > > high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 > > rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. > > > > The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, is > > to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the > > first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell > > in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of > > session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's a > > l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to > > perfect balance. > > > > Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a > > top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 > > (US=6). > > > > Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? > > It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the > > percentages. > > Indeed. Self-evident to you and me - now let's convince the rest of > the world. > In fact, I remember from a private conversation that Ton agrees with > us, but we have yet to se a wbf proclamation on the issue. > Why do you need a wbf proclamation for something you call self-evident? You seem to suggest thet the wbf just adds such percentages with different weights? Well, it isn't. ton From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 14 15:44:25 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 14 15:44:32 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <4210A802.6080201@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000701c512a3$ae36bfc0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Herman De Wael > Sven Pran wrote: > > We do. > > > > Incidentally as all our scoring and calculations are done relative to > > average (not upwards from zero) you may convince yourself that we > actually > > use Acherman's formula (although we do use the name Neuberg) and thus > also > > avoid the special "problems" that may occur in certain cases with > Neuberg. > > > > indeed this is true. > > How many points do you attribute for an AV+ though, Sven? > > If you are aligned with "me", you should use the number of results > divided by 5 (or 10% of twice the number of scores) I believe we use 20% of the difference between "top" and "average" (not 10% of the total number of scores). There is a small difference but I have never bothered to check as this difference is negligible in most if not all cases. Without Neuberg (or Acherman) in force we round this calculated A+ value up to the next integer otherwise we of course use the decimal value without rounding. Regards Sven From utmdvhlwb at comcast.net Mon Feb 14 16:08:17 2005 From: utmdvhlwb at comcast.net (Alma Fletcher) Date: Mon Feb 14 16:09:30 2005 Subject: [blml] =?iso-8859-1?q?Get_V=E4li=FAm_n_X=E5=F1=E0x_=D10w?= Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050214/28f3a9f5/attachment.gif From yissjkudvzrqd at marchordie.org Mon Feb 14 17:42:37 2005 From: yissjkudvzrqd at marchordie.org (Gordon Henley) Date: Mon Feb 14 17:42:58 2005 Subject: [blml] Don't let age determine your erection anymore! Message-ID: <103490553257.camel@naldoco> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050214/b1434c7b/attachment.html From eqhldlmdm at molivos.dk Mon Feb 14 20:24:35 2005 From: eqhldlmdm at molivos.dk (Keisha Nicholas) Date: Mon Feb 14 20:30:42 2005 Subject: [blml] eliminate traffic cameras! Message-ID: <200206100004.g6A28XX02438@eng2.beaverton.ibm.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050214/c00e4db4/attachment.html From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Mon Feb 14 21:12:53 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Mon Feb 14 21:13:07 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sunday, Feb 13, 2005, at 15:00 US/Eastern, Adam Wildavsky wrote: > An AC could award a split score legally by ruling no adjustment and > imposing a procedural penalty on EW on account of East's improper > remark. The staff comment in the casebook suggests doing just that. As I understand it, this is an incorrect (dare I say illegal?) approach. The consideration whether to apply a procedural penalty, and what penalty to apply, is intended, again as I understand it, to be kept separate from the consideration whether and how to apply a score adjustment. Am I wrong? If not, perhaps the next edition of the laws could say it explicitly. Grattan? From ldysgfn at go2.pl Mon Feb 14 21:24:25 2005 From: ldysgfn at go2.pl (Curt Martin) Date: Mon Feb 14 21:31:09 2005 Subject: [blml] FW: Add dr. to you name Message-ID: <68IQ87FE-0G24-11D7-A3B5-0050E4C05556@iwr.uni-heidelberg.de> A Genuine College Degree in 2 weeks! Have you ever thought that the only thing stopping you from a great job and better pay was a few letters behind your name? Well now you can get them! BA BSc MA MSc MBA PhD Within 2 weeks! No Study Required! 100% Verifiable! These are real, genuine degrees that include Bachelors, Masters and Doctorate degrees. They are verifiable and student records and transcripts are also available. This little known secret has been kept quiet for years. The opportunity exists due to a legal loophole allowing some established colleges to award degrees at their discretion. With all of the attention that this news has been generating, I wouldn't be surprised to see this loophole closed very soon. Order yours today. Go Here http://www.freeinfoisnomore.info TODAY, AND GIVE YOUR FUTURE A CHANCE! If you prefer not to receive such offers go here: http://www.freeinfoisnomore.info/r.php From wayne.burrows at xtra.co.nz Tue Feb 15 00:12:06 2005 From: wayne.burrows at xtra.co.nz (Wayne Burrows) Date: Mon Feb 14 23:12:23 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <420A9C25.5090602@xtra.co.nz> References: <420A9C25.5090602@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <42113046.5090902@xtra.co.nz> Wayne Burrows wrote: > I often seem to get UI cases wrong particularly when I am at the > table. In the worst case we had two appeals that occurred on > consecutive boards of the NZ Pairs championships. One we thought was > clear cut and the other dubious. We of course won the dubious appeal > and lost the clear-cut appeal and just to emphasize my > misunderstanding we were fined for bringing a frivolous appeal. But > that is another story. > > One of the latest cases that I was involved in occurred in one of the > later rounds of the South West Pacific Teams in Canberra. It occurred > at table one which means that the players were at least > semi-competent. My opponents of course were more competent than we were. > > We were not happy with the ruling made at the table but did not appeal. > > Brd 8 > Nil Vul > Dlr West > > Pass Pass Pass 1S > Pass 2D Pass 3H* splinter > Pass 3NT Pass ? > > AQJ763 > J > AQT2 > K9 > > The problem was that 3H had not been alerted. > > Can you pull 3NT? > > If you can what is the minimum change that you would make to the hand > so that Pass is a logical alternative that would be barred by the UI? > > TIA > > Wayne Thanks for all of the replies. At the table this hand pulled to 4S which became the final contract which made two overtricks. 3NT would have failed with five cashing hearts. The director ruled no damage. He claimed that he had consulted 5 "experts" and everyone pulled 3NT. We had a substantial pick-up on the board when 6D was bid and made at the other table. We would have gained 4 more imps with 3NT failing. However we did not appeal. These rulings seem very inconsistent to me. Wayne -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 15 00:20:14 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 15 00:20:36 2005 Subject: [blml] Trying to find the boundaries In-Reply-To: <42113046.5090902@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Wayne Burrows: [snip] >The director ruled no damage. He claimed that he had consulted 5 >"experts" and everyone pulled 3NT. [snip] Richard Hills: A "logical alternative" is a misnomer, therefore I do not think that the director's ruling was necessarily wrong. In my previous posting, I pointed out that correct evaluation of AI from pard clearly indicated a strong possibility that 3NT was the only making game. If an expert of the quality of the late B.J. Becker had evaluated the auction, he would have selected 3NT. But, in my opinion, a vast number of so-called experts, even those playing at table 1, have very poor evaluation skills. In my opinion, this decline in evaluation skills over the decades is partly attributable to the ever-increasing disease of artificial conventions. For example, I prefer fit-showing jumps to the artificial Bergen Raises, since I prefer my partnership to evaluate double-fits. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru PS Some might accuse me of hypocrisy in criticising the disease of artificial conventions, when I play the Symmetric Relay system. I would argue that since the prime purpose of a relay system is to encourage the relayer to evaluate the combined distribution of both partners' hands, then relay methods join fit-showing jumps and splinter bids as a tool to improve evaluation. Note: B.J. Becker was notoriously averse to adopting artificial conventions (he was the final American expert to adopt Stayman); but he was an enthusiastic convert to splinter bids as soon as they were invented. PPS As previously advised, copies of my version of the Symmetric Relay system will be emailed on request. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 15 00:59:30 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 15 01:22:03 2005 Subject: [blml] The Return of the King (was Toil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the old thread "Rubensohl", Richard Hills asked: [snip] >>>Therefore, if: >>> >>>(e) the TD assumes (for score-adjustment >>> purposes) that the MI did not happen, then >>> >>>(f) should the TD consistently assume (for >>> score-adjustment purposes) that the AI to >>> North-South from East's non-alert did not >>> happen? >>> >>>As TD, how would you rule? Adam Wildavsky replied: >>It would depend on the actual EW agreement. I play >>Rubensohl, and I treat 3C here as natural. >> >>If I did rule that 3C showed diamonds [RJH note - East and West were both actively ethical in assisting the TD determine the facts in this Rubensohl case - they both agreed that in their version of Rubensohl a 3C bid showed diamonds.] >>and should have been alerted then I would rule as >>the TD did. I agree with Kaplan, and I believe I've >>addressed the topic previously on BLML. >> >>(Not cc'd to BLML on account of the delay. Feel >>free to quote me if you like.) In the current thread "Return of the King" a.k.a "Toil and trouble", Richard Hills argued: [snip] >The King of Law 16 and Law 75 interpretation, Edgar >Kaplan, used this (paraphrased) metaphor: > >"South is entitled to have access to a 100% accurate >(hypothetical) computer printout of the East-West >partnership agreements, but East-West have no such >entitlement." > >In my opinion, a logical extension of King Edgar's >metaphor is that cancellation of MI from a mistaken >explanation does *not necessarily* cancel the AI that >an opponent has given a mistaken explanation. > >In my opinion, *if* South had been deemed to retain AI >that opponents were having a bidding misunderstanding, >*then* 4Sx passed out for a postcode penalty would have >been the appropriate Law 12C2 adjusted score. (Aussie >TDs are not yet permitted to award Law 12C3 weighted >adjusted scores.) Richard Hills footnote: It was the same TD who ruled the Wildavsky way in the old "Rubensohl" case, but the anti-Wildavsky way in the current "RotK/Toil and trouble" case. Of course, the TD's ruling in the current case may have been affected by the TD's perception that either: (a) North's takeout double with a fistful of trumps, or (b) South's removal of a takeout double of 4S when holding balanced values, or (c) the failure of the North-South partnership to have explicit agreements on high-level doubles, was irrational, wild or gambling. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 15 01:20:27 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 15 01:25:57 2005 Subject: [blml] Brown sticker - meaningless definition? In-Reply-To: <000001c51210$4b91cbf0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran asked: >Can an opening bid in the range 2C through 3S be a BS if it always >promises at least 10 HCP? > >I shall appreciate a clear answer "yes" or "no". Richard Hills replies: No. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 15 01:42:34 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 15 01:42:50 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Adam Wildavsky: >>An AC could award a split score legally by ruling no adjustment and >>imposing a procedural penalty on EW on account of East's improper >>remark. The staff comment in the casebook suggests doing just that. Ed Reppert: >As I understand it, this is an incorrect (dare I say illegal?) >approach. The consideration whether to apply a procedural penalty, and >what penalty to apply, is intended, again as I understand it, to be >kept separate from the consideration whether and how to apply a score >adjustment. > >Am I wrong? If not, perhaps the next edition of the laws could say it >explicitly. Grattan? Richard Hills: This is a theoretically legal procedure. I discussed a case in which I was the plaintiff some years ago on blml. To recap: (1) In the auction 1NT - (Pass) - 2D, a bunny alerted her own transfer to hearts (trying to be helpful) because her partner had forgotten to alert. (2) The CTD correctly ruled that the bunny's partner always remembered a Jacoby transfer of 2D, even if the bunny's partner sometimes forgot to alert. Therefore, the CTD correctly ruled no adjustment to the eventual contract of 4H making, -620 for my side. The CTD sensibly did not apply a procedural penalty to the bunny partnership. (3) I greedily appealed the CTD's ruling, hoping for an adjusted score of 2D failing. (3) The AC foolishly (but legally) ruled that passing 2D was a logical alternative for the bunny's partner. (4) The AC illegally gave a split-score ruling; 2D failing for the bunny partnership, but 4H -620 for my side. (5) The CTD ordered the AC to reconvene, informing the AC that they had given an illegal "Reveley" ruling. (6) The AC sensibly ruled that passing 2D was no longer a logical alternative for the bunny's partner. (7) The AC foolishly (but legally) applied a severe procedural penalty to the bunny partnership, with the procedural penalty "coincidentally" equivalent to the score the bunny partnership had been awarded in the previous (illegal) split score. :-( Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From karel at esatclear.ie Tue Feb 15 01:47:00 2005 From: karel at esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Tue Feb 15 01:51:38 2005 Subject: [blml] Ruling please In-Reply-To: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: Teams N/S vul North S AT9 H AJxx D Ax C Qxxx West East S Jxxx S Kx H K8xx H T D Txx D KQxxxx C xx C Kxxx South S Qxxx H Q9xx D Jx C AJx Bidding N E S W 1NT 3C* DBl% P P 3D P P P * Transfer to D's. Not alerted % Take out(see below) Result 3D-1 E/W played transfer overcalls at the 2 level over 1NT. 2D->H's etc. 2C was both majors. Dbl penos E thought 3C was a tx to diamonds. West wasn't sure. S played doubles of overcalls after a 1NT at the 2 level as penalties and at the 3 level as takeout. N thought all doubles were penalties. TD ruled 4H+1 + 3imp NS/-3imp EW penalty. E/W appealed the decision. West said she she was never going to stay in 3C's doubled with her diamond suit. When asked what would the pass of the double over an alerted 3 clubs mean, she conceeded it could be clubs but they had no agreement. N/S said that with the correct explanation S would have doubled 3C's (To) and over 3D's Either N or S would have bid 3H's which the other would have raised to 4. On the actual auction S thought his pass was forcing. North thinking E was 6/5 in the minors, envisaged 8+ cards in the majors with West and felt 3H could lead to a disaster and so passed. Your ruling. From grabiner at alumni.princeton.edu Tue Feb 15 03:09:33 2005 From: grabiner at alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Tue Feb 15 03:09:45 2005 Subject: [blml] Ruling please In-Reply-To: References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050214204733.01d89a40@mail.comcast.net> At 07:47 PM 2/14/2005, Karel wrote: >Teams N/S vul > > North > S AT9 > H AJxx > D Ax > C Qxxx >West East >S Jxxx S Kx >H K8xx H T >D Txx D KQxxxx >C xx C Kxxx > South > S Qxxx > H Q9xx > D Jx > C AJx > >Bidding > >N E S W >1NT 3C* DBl% P >P 3D P P >P > >* Transfer to D's. Not alerted >% Take out(see below) > >Result 3D-1 > >E/W played transfer overcalls at the 2 level over 1NT. 2D->H's etc. 2C was >both majors. Dbl penos >E thought 3C was a tx to diamonds. West wasn't sure. > >S played doubles of overcalls after a 1NT at the 2 level as penalties and at >the 3 level as takeout. N thought all doubles were penalties. What is the N-S agreement? North's failure to alert South's double may also be misinformation to E-W, although I don't think it matters here. >TD ruled 4H+1 + 3imp NS/-3imp EW penalty. I don't like the penalty for forgetting your system. A penalty to E-W could be justified because of a clear use of unauthorized information, but not a penalty to N-S. >E/W appealed the decision. West said she she was never going to stay in >3C's doubled with her diamond suit. When asked what would the pass of the >double over an alerted 3 clubs mean, she conceeded it could be clubs but >they had no agreement. This is a clear infraction. West's failure to alert is unauthorized information to East, and it demonstrably suggests 3D over pass. East has a great hand if West is willing to play 3C doubled. Without this infraction, East would have passed, and the final contract would be 3C doubled. In 3C doubled, it looks like East makes four tricks: heart to the jack, club to South's jack (East plays the CT if he has it), HQ ruffed by East, DK to North's ace, CT (or C9 if East played the CT), CQ, low spade (East will guess correctly since North needs the SA to have a 15 count), DQ, diamond ruffed by North, SA, spade to the queen, H9, and West's SJ and H8 take the last two tricks. Even if East has the CT and C9, I think he still gets only four tricks; he plays the C9 on the first trump, and when North leads a low trump after winning the DA, East has KT left and is allowed to guess wrong. Thus the adjustment should be to 3Cx down five. Was East damaged by the N-S misinformation? I don't think so; if he knew that North had left in a negative double rather than a penalty double, that would make passing 3Cx even more attractive, as it would make it more likely that North held the CA. >N/S said that with the correct explanation S would have doubled 3C's (To) >and over 3D's Either N or S would have bid 3H's which the other would have >raised to 4. > >On the actual auction S thought his pass was forcing. North thinking E was >6/5 in the minors, envisaged 8+ cards in the majors with West and felt 3H >could lead to a disaster and so passed. This is irrelevant since the unauthorized information caused even more damage. From adam at tameware.com Tue Feb 15 05:53:14 2005 From: adam at tameware.com (Adam Wildavsky) Date: Tue Feb 15 05:53:47 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:12 PM -0500 2/14/05, Ed Reppert wrote: >On Sunday, Feb 13, 2005, at 15:00 US/Eastern, Adam Wildavsky wrote: > >>An AC could award a split score legally by ruling no adjustment and >>imposing a procedural penalty on EW on account of East's improper >>remark. The staff comment in the casebook suggests doing just that. > >As I understand it, this is an incorrect (dare I say illegal?) >approach. The consideration whether to apply a procedural penalty, >and what penalty to apply, is intended, again as I understand it, to >be kept separate from the consideration whether and how to apply a >score adjustment. I don't understand. Suppose my A/C ruled that there was no LA to the SA, or that the UI did not demonstrably suggest the SA, and we on that account did not adjust the score. Supose we then assessed a 1/4 board penalty against E/W for East's improper remark, say under Law 72b1. Would that be illegal? That was what I meant to propose. -- Adam Wildavsky http://www.tameware.com From adam at tameware.com Tue Feb 15 06:02:16 2005 From: adam at tameware.com (Adam Wildavsky) Date: Tue Feb 15 06:04:56 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:30 PM +1100 1/28/05, richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: >As for the second paragraph of advice, it would gladden the >heart of Herman De Wael. How can it be legal to suggest that a >player lie about a partnership agreement, merely because a player >has insufficient evidence to prove the existence of a partnership >agreement? I wrote the paragraph in question. I hope I did not encourage anyone to lie -- that was certainly not my intent. What I wanted to suggest was that a player consider saying "I intended my bid thusly" or perhaps "While I now realize that I forgot our agreement in fact I intended to show thus and such." I had no idea that I was agreeing with Herman. That also was not my intent. Ah, well, there's a first time for everything. -- Adam Wildavsky http://www.tameware.com From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 06:22:27 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 06:24:00 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <42106447.5040505@hdw.be> References: <42106447.5040505@hdw.be> Message-ID: In article <42106447.5040505@hdw.be>, Herman De Wael writes >John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > >> So I've been running a County Men's Pairs Championship. Serious event, >> high class field. Only 7 tables, but it's all play all, so it's 13 >> rounds of hard slog over 2 sessions. >> >> The perceived wisdom, according to Manning and to aid board security, is >> to play a Switch Mitchell (switch about 1/3 of the rounds) omitting the >> first round in the first session, and then a twinned 3 1/2 table Howell >> in the second. This allows the players who didn't meet in round 1 of >> session 1 to meet each other at the "sitout" table in the Howell. It's a >> l33t (pretty good) movement and with some fine tuning, very close to >> perfect balance. >> >> Now think about the tops. In the first session you play 6 rounds with a >> top of 10 (US=5), and in the second you play 7 rounds with a top of 12 >> (US=6). >> >> Is it better to amass a huge score in the first session, or the second? >> It's self-evident (well to me anyway) that you can't just add the >> percentages. > >Indeed. Self-evident to you and me - now let's convince the rest of >the world. >In fact, I remember from a private conversation that Ton agrees with >us, but we have yet to se a wbf proclamation on the issue. I didn't tell the whole story. I had designed the movement for 8 tables and 45 boards, and got 7 tables instead. If you want to see what actually happened try this link :) http://www.asimere.com/~john/MxLandMP.htm > >> How about just adding the absolute matchpoint total? After all you get >> two (US=one) scoring unit(s) for each pair you've beaten. You can add >> the two tops and give an overall percentage if you like. >> How about applying neuberg (US=fouled board procedure) to the first >> session to get the tops the same then add the matchpoints? >> > >This is my preferred method. The other one is plainly wrong. We disagree then :) > >> Now what happens when you play 4 board rounds in the first session, but >> only 3 board rounds in the 2nd, in order to finish at the same time as >> the ladies pairs who have a different number of tables? >> > >That is introducing a less than perfect element into a quite perfect >movement. It should be avoided. > >> I think I know the answer but Haworth (the generic UK TD scoring >> program) does not do what I think it should. Not surprisingly in one >> incarnation there is a winner by 10 mps (US=5), and in another it's a >> small fraction of a point. Ok, I can declare the same winner by both >> methods, but I might not have been able to. >> > >You're luckier than I was when something like this happened a dozen >years ago in the Antwerp' Ladies' Pairs. We declared 2 champions. > >My opinion is that if you want to have a movement in which you play 4 >boards against some opponents and 3 against some others, then that is >what you have. Every board should count equal though. So Neubergize >one session or another (that does not change the final result - but >see below *) and simply add the points. Max Bavin agrees with you. I have my camp followers too. > >(*) Yes it does. If you have some Av+ in there, Neubergizing the total >session score should be avoided, since an Av+ would change to some >other number. Av+ should be added after the adding, but then again it >matters in what session you add the Av+. sure, let's assume I can handle this one. > >> I think I need to be Herman-ated. :) cheers John Thanks for your response. I've decided to write a paper on the subject. Watch this space. > >-- >Herman DE WAEL >Antwerpen Belgium >http://www.hdw.be > > > -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 06:23:41 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 06:25:10 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000b01c51277$9e3c3040$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <42106447.5040505@hdw.be> <000b01c51277$9e3c3040$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article <000b01c51277$9e3c3040$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >For what it is worth, let me contribute with how I believe most of us have >come to solve such "problems" in Norway: > >1: We calculate all scores as percentage scores. >2: We weight each session (percentage) score with the number of boards >played in that session. >3: We add the resulting weighted (percentage) scores. > >One consequence is of course what most people will find fair: > >If you play one session with 40 boards, two sessions with 20 boards each or >three sessions with 20, 10 and 10 boards respectively the final result will >be unaffected by how the event has been split into sessions. > >Regards Sven This weighting is obviously correct. Now try the problem with a 10 top in the first session and a 12 top in the second. -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 06:26:30 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 06:27:52 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , WILLIAM SCHODER writes >How about one of these? > >1. Play an "endless Howell" barometer where each session is really only a >segment of the whole movement. > >2. Factor the boards to the same top for both sessions. ACBLSCOR does this >easily. It is this "same top" which really worries me. I am unconvinced, in the case of an all-play-all. > >Kojak > -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 06:27:18 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 06:29:11 2005 Subject: [blml] Lead required In-Reply-To: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com> References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: In article <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5CB6@rama.micronas.com>, Sinot Martin writes >South is declarer in some contract. East leads a heart (OOT). >Declarer now requires a heart lead. West leads the HA, making. >What should West do in trick two? Must he play a heart again >or can he play something else? Nope, the penalty has now been paid. > -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 15 06:52:00 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 15 06:52:31 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard Hills rant: >>As for the second paragraph of advice, it would gladden the >>heart of Herman De Wael. How can it be legal to suggest that a >>player lie about a partnership agreement, merely because a player >>has insufficient evidence to prove the existence of a partnership >>agreement? Adam Wildavsky clarification: >I wrote the paragraph in question. I hope I did not encourage anyone >to lie -- that was certainly not my intent. What I wanted to suggest >was that a player consider saying "I intended my bid thusly" or >perhaps "While I now realize that I forgot our agreement in fact I >intended to show thus and such." Richard Hills apology: My apologies for misinterpreting the intent of Adam Wildavsky. But... It seems to me that, despite Adam's intent not being to encourage a player to lie, his clarified intent is directly contrary to the second sentence of Law 75B -> ".....No player has the obligation to disclose to the opponents that he has violated an announced agreement and if the opponents are subsequently damaged, as through drawing a false inference from such violation, they are not entitled to redress." Adam Wildavsky clarification: >I had no idea that I was agreeing with Herman. That also was not my >intent. Ah, well, there's a first time for everything. Richard Hills apology: The De Wael School has as one of its principles the philosophy that explaining a player's cards is a priority. The original intent of Adam's advice seems consistent with the De Wael School philosophy. However, my apologies also to Herman De Wael, for my ad hominem putdown of the De Wael School by using "gladden the heart of Herman De Wael" as an implied pejorative. Note: I also agree with one of Herman's arguments. He has convinced me that the "full disclosure in response to a question" principle of Law 75C, and the "delayed indication of an error" principle of Law 75D2, as those Laws are currently written, are paradoxical. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From cxoifascfqmp at swbell.net Tue Feb 15 06:59:28 2005 From: cxoifascfqmp at swbell.net (Louise Howell) Date: Tue Feb 15 07:03:42 2005 Subject: [blml] =?iso-8859-1?q?Buy_X=E3=F1=E4x_=F10w?= Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050215/3280bff6/attachment.gif From svenpran at online.no Tue Feb 15 09:43:38 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue Feb 15 09:43:49 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5133a$71cbcde0$6900a8c0@WINXP> John (MadDog) Probst > >For what it is worth, let me contribute with how I believe most of us > have > >come to solve such "problems" in Norway: > > > >1: We calculate all scores as percentage scores. > >2: We weight each session (percentage) score with > > the number of boards played in that session. > >3: We add the resulting weighted (percentage) scores. > > > >One consequence is of course what most people will find fair: > > > >If you play one session with 40 boards, two sessions > >with 20 boards each or three sessions with 20, 10 and > >10 boards respectively the final result will be unaffected > >by how the event has been split into sessions. > > > >Regards Sven > > This weighting is obviously correct. Now try the problem with > a 10 top in the first session and a 12 top in the second. What is the problem? I stated that we calculate all scores as percentage scores so (an average of) 10 in the first session is 100% as is 12 in the second session. 7 in the first session is 70%, 9 in the second session is 75% and so on. Regards Sven From grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk Tue Feb 15 12:24:54 2005 From: grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Tue Feb 15 13:01:13 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only References: Message-ID: <000601c51355$c0358cd0$50b387d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] **************************** "My faith in the people governing is, on the whole, infinitesimal; my faith in The People governed is, on the whole, illimitable." ~ Charles Dickens. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Reppert" To: "blml" Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [blml] An LA for one side only > > On Sunday, Feb 13, 2005, at 15:00 US/Eastern, > Adam Wildavsky wrote: > > > An AC could award a split score legally by ruling > > no adjustment and imposing a procedural penalty on > > EW on account of East's improper remark. The staff > > comment in the casebook suggests doing just that. > > As I understand it, this is an incorrect (dare I say illegal?) > approach. The consideration whether to apply a procedural > penalty, and what penalty to apply, is intended, again as I > understand it, to be kept separate from the consideration > whether and how to apply a score adjustment. > > Am I wrong? If not, perhaps the next edition of the laws > could say it explicitly. Grattan? > +=+ As though we would have overlooked the question! Such lack of faith! But even should we write the law this way, two independent decisions will still have a single cumulative effect. There are alternative philosophies in this depending whether or no one considers that a corrective adjustment should incorporate a retributional element. I am known to be amongst the Noes on it, since I believe it was not part of the original concept of score adjustment and is a later distortion of it. ~ G ~ +=+ From kgrauwel at hotmail.com Tue Feb 15 14:14:43 2005 From: kgrauwel at hotmail.com (Koen Grauwels) Date: Tue Feb 15 14:15:14 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards Message-ID: At a club evening (playing MP's) wrong boards were played. Below example: pair 1 had to play against pair 2. They had to play board 5 till 8, but started with playing board 9 and 10. Before starting board 11 they discovered that they were playing the wrong boards. Both pairs still had to play board 9 and 10 at another table (pair 1 against pair 4, and pair 2 against pair 5). What are the scores on the wrongly played boards for pair 1 and 2 - for pair 4 and 5? I would think: - pair 1 and 2: score what they played on board 9 and 10. - pair 4 and 5: score 60% on boards 9 and 10 - additional penalty for pair 1 and 2. What penalty? - Suppose pair 1 and 2 don't have time to finish board 8: Do they score 40% or 50% on board 8? Thanks, Koen _________________________________________________________________ From schoderb at msn.com Tue Feb 15 14:38:22 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Tue Feb 15 14:39:11 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation References: Message-ID: Sorry if I mislead you John. I did not mean to do both -- I left out he all-important "or".. If you use (1) the endless Howell you will have the same top on each board. You then add the resulting scores for the first and second segment together to get the final total for the event. If you use (2) differing tops you factor either one or both of the sessions to get the result for each and then add them together. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "John (MadDog) Probst" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:26 AM Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > In article , WILLIAM > SCHODER writes > >How about one of these? > > > >1. Play an "endless Howell" barometer where each session is really only a > >segment of the whole movement. > > > >2. Factor the boards to the same top for both sessions. ACBLSCOR does > >this > >easily. > > It is this "same top" which really worries me. I am unconvinced, in the > case of an all-play-all. > > > >Kojak > > > > -- > John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou > 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou > London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com > +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 15 14:45:38 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 15 14:47:23 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John (MadDog) Probst wrote >In article , WILLIAM >SCHODER writes >>How about one of these? >> >>1. Play an "endless Howell" barometer where each session is really only a >>segment of the whole movement. >> >>2. Factor the boards to the same top for both sessions. ACBLSCOR does this >>easily. > >It is this "same top" which really worries me. I am unconvinced, in the >case of an all-play-all. I am unconvinced anyway. If one table, to get a top, requires to beat eight other scores, and another only needs to beat seven other scores, it is easier to get a top at the latter table, and scoring ought to allow for this in some way. Note that Neuman does. Factoring boards to the same top seems patently unfair, all-play-all or otherwise. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca Tue Feb 15 16:48:41 2005 From: picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca (Laval Dubreuil) Date: Tue Feb 15 16:48:01 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Koen writes: At a club evening (playing MP's) wrong boards were played. Below example: pair 1 had to play against pair 2. They had to play board 5 till 8, but started with playing board 9 and 10. Before starting board 11 they discovered that they were playing the wrong boards. Both pairs still had to play board 9 and 10 at another table (pair 1 against pair 4, and pair 2 against pair 5). What are the scores on the wrongly played boards for pair 1 and 2 - for pair 4 and 5? I would think: - pair 1 and 2: score what they played on board 9 and 10. - pair 4 and 5: score 60% on boards 9 and 10 __________________________________________________________________________ Your first try should be to see if you can "save your movement". I know, not very easy "dans le feu de l'action" ... except if you have a good movement book....as mine.... I dont know the movement but your original setting is: 1 vs 2 : 5-6 and 7-8 1 vs 4 : 9-10 and 11-12 2 vs 5 : 9-10 and 11-12 When you realise there is a mistake, just try exchanging 5-6 and 9-10 1 vs 2 : 9-10 and 7-8 1 vs 4 : 5-6 and 11-12 1 vs 5 : 5-6 and 11-12 If it is possible, you simply edit the movement in your computer and save all the scores. If one pair already played 5-6 (or have to play vs an other pair), you then have to allow artificial scores on 9-10. 60% if not at all in fault. Laval Du Breuil Quebec City From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 17:30:47 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 17:32:58 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000001c5133a$71cbcde0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000001c5133a$71cbcde0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article <000001c5133a$71cbcde0$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >John (MadDog) Probst >> >For what it is worth, let me contribute with how I believe most of us >> have >> >come to solve such "problems" in Norway: >> > >> >1: We calculate all scores as percentage scores. >> >2: We weight each session (percentage) score with >> > the number of boards played in that session. >> >3: We add the resulting weighted (percentage) scores. >> > >> >One consequence is of course what most people will find fair: >> > >> >If you play one session with 40 boards, two sessions >> >with 20 boards each or three sessions with 20, 10 and >> >10 boards respectively the final result will be unaffected >> >by how the event has been split into sessions. >> > >> >Regards Sven >> >> This weighting is obviously correct. Now try the problem with >> a 10 top in the first session and a 12 top in the second. > >What is the problem? > >I stated that we calculate all scores as percentage scores so (an average >of) 10 in the first session is 100% as is 12 in the second session. 7 in the >first session is 70%, 9 in the second session is 75% and so on. Yes, Yes, Sven. This is obvious with equal tops. It is not clear if the tops are not equal. Can I define the problem as solely related to all- play-all, multiple sessions, different tops in each session. This means all players get the same opportunity in each session to get either an easier top or a harder top (depending on number of times played), In all other obvious cases I am happy with Neuberg. > >Regards Sven > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 17:41:03 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 17:42:42 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , WILLIAM SCHODER writes >Sorry if I mislead you John. I did not mean to do both -- I left out he >all-important "or".. If you use (1) the endless Howell you will have the >same top on each board. Kojak, thanks as ever for your time and experience. This one needs to be played barometer style I think. I'm talking about an event where I have enough boards duplicated for one or two set(s) per section, but not enough to play a barometer. (I'm assuming this is what Max and I would call a flower movement) You then add the resulting scores for the first and >second segment together to get the final total for the event. >If you use (2) differing tops you factor either one or both of the sessions >to get the result for each and then add them together. Nope we're not misunderstanding. I'm raising a point regarding a very specific instance (ie all-play-all, multiple sessions, fresh boards each session, different tops in different sessions). I think one should not factor. We have two entrenched schools of thought here in the uk, and I'm hoping to get to an agreement. fwiw, Manning (the sadly deceased movement and scoring guru), David Martin (brilliant movement theoretician, and very good on scoring) and myself are in the camp that wants to add raw scores. Max is currently with the factoring camp. By factoring we can assume Neuberg (=your fouled board procedure). The area is a very small one where my interest and concern lies. John >Kojak > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John (MadDog) Probst" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:26 AM >Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > > >> In article , WILLIAM >> SCHODER writes >> >How about one of these? >> > >> >1. Play an "endless Howell" barometer where each session is really only a >> >segment of the whole movement. >> > >> >2. Factor the boards to the same top for both sessions. ACBLSCOR does >> >this >> >easily. >> >> It is this "same top" which really worries me. I am unconvinced, in the >> case of an all-play-all. >> > >> >Kojak >> > >> >> -- >> John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou >> 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou >> London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com >> +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blml mailing list >> blml@amsterdamned.org >> http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 17:42:49 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 17:44:03 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Stevenson writes >John (MadDog) Probst wrote >>In article , WILLIAM >>SCHODER writes >>>How about one of these? >>> >>>1. Play an "endless Howell" barometer where each session is really only a >>>segment of the whole movement. >>> >>>2. Factor the boards to the same top for both sessions. ACBLSCOR does this >>>easily. >> >>It is this "same top" which really worries me. I am unconvinced, in the >>case of an all-play-all. > > I am unconvinced anyway. If one table, to get a top, requires to beat >eight other scores, and another only needs to beat seven other scores, >it is easier to get a top at the latter table, and scoring ought to >allow for this in some way. Note that Neuman does. Neuman does this to allow for the fact that not all pairs have the same opportunity in an incomplete movement. In a complete movement, whether the top is 10 or 12, I have the same opportunity on this board as does everyone else. > > Factoring boards to the same top seems patently unfair, all-play-all >or otherwise. > -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 17:45:55 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 17:47:26 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Koen Grauwels writes >At a club evening (playing MP's) wrong boards were played. Below example: >pair 1 had to play against pair 2. >They had to play board 5 till 8, but started with playing board 9 and 10. >Before starting board 11 they discovered that they were playing the wrong >boards. >Both pairs still had to play board 9 and 10 at another table (pair 1 against >pair 4, and pair 2 against pair 5). > >What are the scores on the wrongly played boards for pair 1 and 2 - for pair >4 and 5? >I would think: >- pair 1 and 2: score what they played on board 9 and 10. >- pair 4 and 5: score 60% on boards 9 and 10 Yes and yes. >- additional penalty for pair 1 and 2. What penalty? I don't fine but one could. You could claw back the 10% you issued to 4 and 5. >- Suppose pair 1 and 2 don't have time to finish board 8: Do they score 40% >or 50% on board 8? 40/60 definitely, entirely their own fault. > >Thanks, >Koen > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From toddz at att.net Tue Feb 15 18:55:11 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Tue Feb 15 18:55:25 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4212377F.2030002@att.net> David Stevenson wrote: > I am unconvinced anyway. If one table, to get a top, requires to beat > eight other scores, and another only needs to beat seven other scores, > it is easier to get a top at the latter table, and scoring ought to > allow for this in some way. Easier to get a bottom at the latter table too, no? I think it's a similar luck factor like getting easy boards against experts and difficult boards against novices. It could just as well be the other way around. -Todd From toddz at att.net Tue Feb 15 19:03:41 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Tue Feb 15 19:03:55 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4212397D.1070206@att.net> Adam Wildavsky wrote: > I don't understand. Suppose my A/C ruled that there was no LA to the SA, > or that the UI did not demonstrably suggest the SA, and we on that > account did not adjust the score. Supose we then assessed a 1/4 board > penalty against E/W for East's improper remark, say under Law 72b1. > Would that be illegal? That was what I meant to propose. No, it's not illegal. The argument is that it's in poor taste to link these decisions to each other. Some cases go directly to an ethics committee. It might be nice if ACs could refer behavior matters to an EC that knows nothing of the AC's deliberations. -Todd From schoderb at msn.com Tue Feb 15 19:22:09 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Tue Feb 15 19:23:09 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation References: Message-ID: OK, John. Please keep in mind that for a barometer you don't need a set of boards for each table. With 7 or 8 tables you could get by with 3 or 4 sets by sharing each round. I presume you would play something like 3 boards a round anyhow, and since all tables play the same boards, there are always boards available so that you can prevent having to wait. Makes for some extra work, -- but gives me a glow when the players get the "best" that is possible. The balance of comparisons, security of boards, etc., makes me lean very much toward barometer when you want them the best, all other resolutions of this problem are lacking something or other. And, you don't have to score them by IMPs if they want MPs. I'd be much interested in your read on the chapter in Hallen's -- Movements, A Fair Approach. From: "WILLIAM SCHODER" To: ; "John (MadDog) Probst" Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > Sorry if I mislead you John. I did not mean to do both -- I left out he > all-important "or".. If you use (1) the endless Howell you will have the > same top on each board. You then add the resulting scores for the first > and second segment together to get the final total for the event. > If you use (2) differing tops you factor either one or both of the > sessions to get the result for each and then add them together. > Kojak > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John (MadDog) Probst" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:26 AM > Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > > > > In article , WILLIAM > > SCHODER writes > > >How about one of these? > > > > > >1. Play an "endless Howell" barometer where each session is really only > > >a > > >segment of the whole movement. > > > > > >2. Factor the boards to the same top for both sessions. ACBLSCOR does > > >this > > >easily. > > > > It is this "same top" which really worries me. I am unconvinced, in the > > case of an all-play-all. > > > > > >Kojak > > > > > > > -- > > John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou > > 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou > > London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com > > +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blml mailing list > > blml@amsterdamned.org > > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From B.Schelen at IAE.NL Tue Feb 15 19:09:59 2005 From: B.Schelen at IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Tue Feb 15 19:40:21 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards References: Message-ID: <00a501c5138d$fe223ba0$47063dd4@c6l8v1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John (MadDog) Probst" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [blml] played 2 wrong boards > In article , Koen Grauwels > writes > >At a club evening (playing MP's) wrong boards were played. Below example: > >pair 1 had to play against pair 2. > >They had to play board 5 till 8, but started with playing board 9 and 10. > >Before starting board 11 they discovered that they were playing the wrong > >boards. > >Both pairs still had to play board 9 and 10 at another table (pair 1 against > >pair 4, and pair 2 against pair 5). > > > >What are the scores on the wrongly played boards for pair 1 and 2 - for pair > >4 and 5? > >I would think: > >- pair 1 and 2: score what they played on board 9 and 10. > >- pair 4 and 5: score 60% on boards 9 and 10 > > Yes and yes. > > >- additional penalty for pair 1 and 2. What penalty? > > I don't fine but one could. You could claw back the 10% you issued to 4 > and 5. > > >- Suppose pair 1 and 2 don't have time to finish board 8: Do they score 40% > >or 50% on board 8? > > 40/60 definitely, entirely their own fault. > > > There was a problem with the boards, but, in The Netherlands a director has learned that a score on the board is needed. So the board must be finished and the start of the following round is postponed. However in other cases he has the possibility to fine the pairs for late play: f.i. a warning if it is the first time or a 25% penalty of the top. In case he does so, it helps tremendously. See the club conditions of contest. Ben From mfrench1 at san.rr.com Wed Feb 16 08:17:14 2005 From: mfrench1 at san.rr.com (Marvin French) Date: Tue Feb 15 20:17:41 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation References: <000001c5133a$71cbcde0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> From: "Sven Pran" >> Now try the problem with >> a 10 top in the first session and a 12 top in the second. >What is the problem? >I stated that we calculate all scores as percentage scores so (an average >of) 10 in the first session is 100% as is 12 in the second session. 7 in the >first session is 70%, 9 in the second session is 75% and so on. Try this with 4 top and 12 top. It is much easier to score 75% with 4 top than 75% with 12 top. The problem is that this method is unfair to the larger group. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, California From wayne.burrows at xtra.co.nz Tue Feb 15 21:38:30 2005 From: wayne.burrows at xtra.co.nz (Wayne Burrows) Date: Tue Feb 15 20:37:31 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> References: <000001c5133a$71cbcde0$6900a8c0@WINXP> <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> Message-ID: <42125DC6.7090104@xtra.co.nz> Marvin French wrote: >From: "Sven Pran" > > > >>>Now try the problem with >>>a 10 top in the first session and a 12 top in the second. >>> >>> > > > >>What is the problem? >> >> > > > >>I stated that we calculate all scores as percentage scores so (an average >>of) 10 in the first session is 100% as is 12 in the second session. 7 in the >>first session is 70%, 9 in the second session is 75% and so on. >> >> > >Try this with 4 top and 12 top. It is much easier to score 75% with 4 top than >75% with 12 top. The problem is that this method is unfair to the larger >group. > > It is correspondingly easier to score 25% with 4 top than 25% with 12 top. This is unfair to the smaller group. An accurate statement seems to be more like the method is unfair to the better players in the larger group and to the weaker players in the smaller group. This is because the better players can be expected to score more above average scores and the weaker players more below average scores. Wayne -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From toddz at att.net Tue Feb 15 20:47:12 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Tue Feb 15 20:47:25 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> References: <000001c5133a$71cbcde0$6900a8c0@WINXP> <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> Message-ID: <421251C0.7080304@att.net> Marvin French wrote: > Try this with 4 top and 12 top. It is much easier to score 75% with 4 top than > 75% with 12 top. The problem is that this method is unfair to the larger > group. But with the movement they're discussing all players are in the "lower top" group for boards x through y, and then all the players are in the "larger top" group for boards y+1 through z. Both groups have the same number of players. -Todd From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 21:48:18 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 21:49:53 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> References: <000001c5133a$71cbcde0$6900a8c0@WINXP> <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com>, Marvin French writes > >From: "Sven Pran" > >>> Now try the problem with >>> a 10 top in the first session and a 12 top in the second. > >>What is the problem? > >>I stated that we calculate all scores as percentage scores so (an average >>of) 10 in the first session is 100% as is 12 in the second session. 7 in the >>first session is 70%, 9 in the second session is 75% and so on. > >Try this with 4 top and 12 top. It is much easier to score 75% with 4 top than >75% with 12 top. The problem is that this method is unfair to the larger >group. The point is, that all the players are playing all the boards (in effect) in all the sessions. Everyone gets the same chance. There is no larger and smaller group; everyone has played these boards. > >Marv >Marvin L. French >San Diego, California > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From ahvbdlfeut at go2.pl Tue Feb 15 21:50:02 2005 From: ahvbdlfeut at go2.pl (Christian Byrne) Date: Tue Feb 15 21:54:47 2005 Subject: [blml] FW: Read about ceos with MBA Message-ID: <68PM87FE-0G24-11D7-A3B5-0050E4C05556@iwr.uni-heidelberg.de> Hello, My name is Professor Christian Byrne Here is a short message to tell you about an exciting new academic qualification program which is open to students worldwide. Your hard work and experience is equal to valuable college credits, and if you are experienced enough we will award you with the degree that suits you the most. 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Regards, Professor Christian Byrne If you prefer not to receive such offers please go here: http://www.freeinfoisnomore.info/r.php From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 15 21:59:32 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 15 22:01:16 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <$b1+KVC0KmECFw14@asimere.com> In article , WILLIAM SCHODER writes >OK, John. Please keep in mind that for a barometer you don't need a set of >boards for each table. In the uk, we're used to 2 boards per table when sharing (although you can get by with 1 1/2 boards per table (2 tables sharing 3) for 3 board rounds. For the event in question, it was a County, not a national event (Sectional?, perhaps) so I did insist on 4 sets to cover 19 tables (two each for the mens pairs and the ladies pairs), but they wouldn't have stretched to 8 sets. It's a one-day event in a sports hall, and the shlepping would be horrendous. Nonetheless I agree with you about striving for "best" with what you have; and we really don't like double round robins, when there are good movements that mean you don't need to do it. So the movement I have used is the one that's "best" under the circumstances under standard English practice. Max would assume I'd use it (and when I raised the matter actually presumed I had). It's a side issue about the scoring, very much a "Bridge Lawyer" sort of thing. As ever thanks for your kindness in replying. John > With 7 or 8 tables you could get by with 3 or 4 sets >by sharing each round. I presume you would play something like 3 boards a >round anyhow, and since all tables play the same boards, there are always >boards available so that you can prevent having to wait. Makes for some >extra work, -- but gives me a glow when the players get the "best" that is >possible. The balance of comparisons, security of boards, etc., makes me >lean very much toward barometer when you want them the best, all other >resolutions of this problem are lacking something or other. And, you don't >have to score them by IMPs if they want MPs. I'd be much interested in your >read on the chapter in Hallen's -- Movements, A Fair Approach. > >From: "WILLIAM SCHODER" >To: ; "John (MadDog) Probst" >Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:38 AM >Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > > >> Sorry if I mislead you John. I did not mean to do both -- I left out he >> all-important "or".. If you use (1) the endless Howell you will have the >> same top on each board. You then add the resulting scores for the first >> and second segment together to get the final total for the event. >> If you use (2) differing tops you factor either one or both of the >> sessions to get the result for each and then add them together. >> Kojak >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John (MadDog) Probst" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:26 AM >> Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation >> >> >> > In article , WILLIAM >> > SCHODER writes >> > >How about one of these? >> > > >> > >1. Play an "endless Howell" barometer where each session is really only >> > >a >> > >segment of the whole movement. >> > > >> > >2. Factor the boards to the same top for both sessions. ACBLSCOR does >> > >this >> > >easily. >> > >> > It is this "same top" which really worries me. I am unconvinced, in the >> > case of an all-play-all. >> > > >> > >Kojak >> > > >> > >> > -- >> > John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou >> > 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou >> > London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com >> > +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blml mailing list >> > blml@amsterdamned.org >> > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blml mailing list >> blml@amsterdamned.org >> http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From adam at tameware.com Tue Feb 15 22:19:53 2005 From: adam at tameware.com (Adam Wildavsky) Date: Tue Feb 15 22:20:36 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:52 PM +1100 2/15/05, richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: >It seems to me that, despite Adam's intent not being to encourage a >player to lie, his clarified intent is directly contrary to the >second sentence of Law 75B -> > >".....No player has the obligation to disclose to the opponents that >he has violated an announced agreement and if the opponents are >subsequently damaged, as through drawing a false inference from such >violation, they are not entitled to redress." I don't understand. In what way does my suggestion contravene this law? The law clearly does not require a player to disclose his mistake to his opponents. Likewise, however, it does not prohibit him from doing so. -- Adam Wildavsky http://www.tameware.com From svenpran at online.no Tue Feb 15 22:49:14 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue Feb 15 22:49:21 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <200502151557.j1FFvUZ7011928@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000101c513a8$311488f0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Willner [mailto:willner@cfa.harvard.edu] > Sent: 15. februar 2005 16:58 > To: john@asimere.com > Cc: hermandw@hdw.be; svenpran@online.no > Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > > > >Sven is certainly right that all session scores have to be weighted by > > >the number of boards played; otherwise different boards count different > > >amounts. > > > > As I said in the thread, I am not convinced. > > Now I'm really confused. In BLML, you wrote "This weighting is > obviously correct," apparently referring to weighting session scores. > I thought we all agreed on that. > > > let's make it clear I am applying my statement *only* to all- > > play-all. > > Shouldn't matter. > > > Now try the problem with a 10 top > > in the first session and a 12 top in the second. > > I agree that the issue is what to do with boards that have different > tops. > > I think your method of no adjustment is clearly wrong. Imagine that > your fairy godmother gives you one board on which the opponents will > take a major dive and give you a cosmic top. In a fair scoring system, > you should be indifferent about which board that is, but in your > method, you obviously want that board in the session with the higher > top. (Incidentally, this example shows the mathematical fallacy of > Neuberg, but the effect is very small and may well be outweighed by > Neuberg's advantages.) There is no fallacy if you use Neuberg and score relative to average, only if you score relative to zero (bottom)! Sven From svenpran at online.no Tue Feb 15 22:59:11 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue Feb 15 22:59:19 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> Message-ID: <000201c513a9$94ce3570$6900a8c0@WINXP> Marvin French ............ > From: "Sven Pran" > > >> Now try the problem with > >> a 10 top in the first session and a 12 top in the second. > > >What is the problem? > > >I stated that we calculate all scores as percentage scores so (an average > >of) 10 in the first session is 100% as is 12 in the second session. 7 in > the > >first session is 70%, 9 in the second session is 75% and so on. > > Try this with 4 top and 12 top. It is much easier to score 75% with 4 top > than > 75% with 12 top. The problem is that this method is unfair to the larger > group. 75% with a smaller top will be less than 75% after you expand it to a larger top using Neuberg. Does that answer the "problem"? regards Sven From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 15 23:01:14 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 15 23:01:28 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Adam Wildavsky: [snip] >>>What I wanted to suggest was that a player consider saying "I >>>intended my bid thusly" [snip] Richard Hills: >>It seems to me that, despite Adam's intent not being to encourage a >>player to lie, his clarified intent is directly contrary to the >>second sentence of Law 75B -> >> >>".....No player has the obligation to disclose to the opponents that >>he has violated an announced agreement and if the opponents are >>subsequently damaged, as through drawing a false inference from such >>violation, they are not entitled to redress." Adam Wildavsky: >I don't understand. In what way does my suggestion contravene this >law? The law clearly does not require a player to disclose his >mistake to his opponents. Likewise, however, it does not prohibit him >from doing so. Richard Hills: Again I used Kaplanic over-succinctness in my posting. I did not say that Adam advised an infraction of Law. Rather, what I wanted to suggest that the intent of Adam's advice was directly contrary to the intent of Law 75B. Let me clarify with a hypothetical example -> En route to slam, Zia psychically cuebids a side suit in which he holds a worthless doubleton. Rosenberg correctly explains Zia's cuebid as showing a first round control. Adam's advice is that Zia consider saying, "I intended my bid to confuse you about my actual holding of a worthless doubleton." :-) Such an explanation by Zia would not be an infraction of Law 75B, but would be directly contrary to the intent of Law 75B. In my opinion, Adam is advising players to unnecessarily reduce any competitive advantage they might be legally entitled to after a psyche or misbid. In Edgar Kaplan's opinion, a player need not unnecessarily reduce any legal competitive advantage in "tournaments". (See earlier threads for the differing Kaplanic and Grattanic interpretation of the Law 72A word "tournaments".) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From svenpran at online.no Tue Feb 15 23:11:28 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue Feb 15 23:11:35 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c513ab$4be373a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> WILLIAM SCHODER > OK, John. Please keep in mind that for a barometer you don't need a set > of > boards for each table. With 7 or 8 tables you could get by with 3 or 4 > sets > by sharing each round. I presume you would play something like 3 boards a > round anyhow, and since all tables play the same boards, there are always > boards available so that you can prevent having to wait Our experience in Norway tells us that with two boards per round we always recommend a full set of boards to each table (Number of copies for each board equal to the number of tables). The savings in reduced noise etc. otherwise caused by exchanging boards far outweighs the few extra copies needed. With three boards per round we typically have a number of copies equal to or slightly greater than half the number of tables and so on. However, for high-quality events with three boards per round we even there often provide a full set of boards to each table. Regards Sven From toddz at att.net Tue Feb 15 23:43:55 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Tue Feb 15 23:44:10 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42127B2B.5080301@att.net> richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > Again I used Kaplanic over-succinctness in my posting. I did not say > that Adam advised an infraction of Law. Rather, what I wanted to > suggest that the intent of Adam's advice was directly contrary to the > intent of Law 75B. The proprieties outline minimum standards for behavior which players can feel free to exceed, whether to their benefit or detriment. I think your example is a bit over-the-top. Let's say that over the dinner break your partner suggests using some new convention. Your response to this overture is an ambiguous, "dunno, sounds ok." To your surprise, during the next session your partner alerts and explains as though you were using this new convention. As declarer, what do you tell your opponents? I see it in my best interest to let them in on the joke. The most likely adjustments are correct defense given correct information or correct bidding competition given correct information. Players are more likely to make mistakes than is assumed by directors when adjusting for MI, and I think that's the way it should be. I think my best chance for a good score is to prevent an adjustment on MI grounds and have the hand played out for the table result. -Todd From siegmund at mosquitonet.com Tue Feb 15 23:47:55 2005 From: siegmund at mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Tue Feb 15 23:45:26 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <002001c513f7$8c328c60$6701a8c0@san.rr.com> Message-ID: I am surprised to see so many in the "add raw scores" camp. Simple factoring (multiply by 6/5 in your example) is of course rather much too generous - the best of 6 results isn't "as good" as the best of 7 results. The tiny bit it is "less good" is what Neuberg/Ascherman try to account for. We had a lively discussion a while back on the merits of those vs. a Bethe proposal that punished the small field a bit more severely. When the difference is small, the effect will of course be small. When the number of plays differs considerably, "every board equally important" is a LOT closer to being right than "every matchpoint equally important." Your matchpoint result is the combination of three things: 1) How well you play (25%) 2) How well your table opponents play (25%) 3) How well "the field" plays (50% - 25 each direction, in a Mitchell) Effects 1) and 2) are the same size no matter what field you are in, and are strictly "number of boards" effects. Effect 3) diminishes in importance as the field size increases, a 1 / Sqrt(Top), phenomenon. There is a huge difference between a 2-table and 3-table game, a modest difference between 3 and 4 and 5 tables, about the same modest difference between 5 and 12 or so.. virtually no difference between 20 and 40. SUppose you played one session on a 20 top and another on a 40 top. We can argue about whether to factor up by 2 or 39/19 or 19/9 or something exotic like 2*(1+1/Sqrt(40))/(1+1/Sqrt(20))... but adding matchpoints on 1:1 basis on very different tops is horribly unfair. GRB From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 16 01:03:34 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 16 01:03:47 2005 Subject: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Australian Bridge Directors Association has a new website: http://www.abf.com.au/directors/ A prominent English Director and blmler has oft stated his opinion that the ABDA Bulletin is the best of its type in the world. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From schoderb at msn.com Wed Feb 16 02:57:00 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Wed Feb 16 02:58:09 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) References: <000301c513ab$4be373a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Please don't for a minute think that I'm advising being "cheap" about running events. I much prefer a set of boards for each table at any level, but I can sometimes forgive the inertia that overcomes those to whom duplicating or sharing is "too much work." I'm simply advising that there are less desirable alternatives than to play a game which has differing tops for each session of a play-through event. And also reminding that it is in fact somewhat easier than when just two tables are on relay. Sure, you may run the legs out of you're ass making it work smoothly, but isn't that what you are there for? Also, there is a strong "LOCAL" feeling that often enters into what you play. You want the best -- DO IT -- but if you don't want it then accept the limitations, and may they never make a difference in the winner, no matter which self-styled guru you wish to follow. I'd like to pose a problem from real life. A play shows up who is blind. He has been asked to bring along a set (36) of Braille cards, and shows up with two decks. He intended to play for the six sessions of the weekend. What do you do? You have no caddies, no local help, no scorer, etc. the events are Friday pairs, Saturday Pairs, and Sunday Swiss Teams. He is willing to not play. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sven Pran" To: "blml" Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: RE: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) WILLIAM SCHODER > OK, John. Please keep in mind that for a barometer you don't need a set > of > boards for each table. With 7 or 8 tables you could get by with 3 or 4 > sets > by sharing each round. I presume you would play something like 3 boards a > round anyhow, and since all tables play the same boards, there are always > boards available so that you can prevent having to wait Our experience in Norway tells us that with two boards per round we always recommend a full set of boards to each table (Number of copies for each board equal to the number of tables). The savings in reduced noise etc. otherwise caused by exchanging boards far outweighs the few extra copies needed. With three boards per round we typically have a number of copies equal to or slightly greater than half the number of tables and so on. However, for high-quality events with three boards per round we even there often provide a full set of boards to each table. Regards Sven _______________________________________________ blml mailing list blml@amsterdamned.org http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From schoderb at msn.com Wed Feb 16 02:59:28 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Wed Feb 16 03:00:10 2005 Subject: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association References: Message-ID: A posting fraught with innuendo, wild guesses, and proprietary implications. Sure would like more information, including some copies of this fabulous bulletin, before swallowing the bait. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:03 PM Subject: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association > > > > > The Australian Bridge Directors Association has a new website: > > http://www.abf.com.au/directors/ > > A prominent English Director and blmler has oft stated his > opinion that the ABDA Bulletin is the best of its type in the > world. > > > Best wishes > > Richard Hills > Movie grognard and general guru > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From siegmund at mosquitonet.com Wed Feb 16 03:22:57 2005 From: siegmund at mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Wed Feb 16 03:20:27 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, WILLIAM SCHODER wrote: > I'd like to pose a problem from real life. A play shows up who is blind. He > has been asked to bring along a set (36) of Braille cards, and shows up with > two decks. He intended to play for the six sessions of the weekend. What do > you do? You have no caddies, no local help, no scorer, etc. the events are > Friday pairs, Saturday Pairs, and Sunday Swiss Teams. He is willing to not > play. I seat him South, find a fast and friendly player to seat South at the next higher table to make his hands up for him after each board, assist with making them as I can, and do some serious hunting for assistance before the next day's game. (The Swiss is the real problem, I think - and surely there will be a caddy for that day!) On several occasions I have been the "fast friendly player at the next table" who was instructed to sort his cards in a certain order after every deal, because there was a player with crippled hands at the next table. This doesn't seem that much harder. I have known blind players who brought their own assistant (one a wife, one a daughter) and who brought one or two decks of cards -- you would actually ask someone to bring *36 decks*?? "A set" of bridge cards does of course mean a pair of decks with matching backs, in everyday speech. I am not sure which sounds more unreasonable - asking him to bring them at all, or being surprised he misunderstood what you asked. GRB From karel at esatclear.ie Wed Feb 16 03:24:26 2005 From: karel at esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Wed Feb 16 03:28:58 2005 Subject: [blml] Ruling Take 2 Message-ID: Teams N/S vul North S AT9 H AJxx D Ax C Qxxx West East S Jxxx S Kx H K8xx H T D Txx D KQxxxx C xx C Kxxx South S Qxxx H Q9xx D Jx C AJx Bidding N E S W 1NT 3C* DBl% P P 3D P P P * Transfer to D's. Not alerted % Take out(see below) Result 3D-1 E/W's agreement was 3C's was a transfer to diamonds. West forgot S played doubles of overcalls after a 1NT at the 2 level as penalties and at the 3 level as takeout. N thought all doubles were penalties. They had no agreement. TD ruled 3C*- 4. E/W appealed the decision. East said that the pass of 3C's doubled was by agreement negative "You're on your own pd". 3D showed 3+ diamonds to play. Rdbl showed a goodish diamond raise. Pass did not show clubs. East said they would never play in 3C's doubled. N/S said that with the correct explanation S would have doubled 3C's (To) and over 3D's Either N or S would have bid 3H's which the other would have raised to 4. (1) Whats your ruling now ?? (2) Would you require written proof as to E/W's agreement over the double of the transfer ?? Karel. From pcfpqsk at level3.net Wed Feb 16 04:24:17 2005 From: pcfpqsk at level3.net (Susie Armstrong) Date: Wed Feb 16 04:26:30 2005 Subject: [blml] eiasest Pahramcy Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050216/be8143d0/attachment.gif From tfxif at co.za Wed Feb 16 05:13:38 2005 From: tfxif at co.za (Nathan Ryan) Date: Wed Feb 16 05:13:49 2005 Subject: [blml] interesting report : pics can ruin your marriage Message-ID: <099546519410.UYW19188@postmaster.emirates.net.ae> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 9760 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050216/ff60c313/attachment-0001.gif From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 16 05:08:39 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 16 05:19:07 2005 Subject: [blml] A Short History of Texas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the thread, "100% of Nothing", Ed Reppert wrote: >>So what? That doesn't make the system violating action a >>logical alternative. Footnote to Law 40E2, first sentence: >A player is not entitled, during the auction and play >periods, to any aids to his memory, calculation or >technique. Richard Hills notes: About a decade ago, the ACBL had not yet adopted its current policy of requiring its TDs and ACs to consult with peers on logical alternatives. Edgar Kaplan therefore used UI-related appeals from an ACBL National as a source for a "What call do you make?" & "What other calls do you consider making?" quiz for the complete panel of Master Solvers' Club experts. Kaplan subsequently published the results of the quiz/survey in a Bridge World editorial. Sure enough, the MSC answers highlighted some idiosyncrasies in the bidding judgements of particular TDs and ACs. This editorial may have been a prime cause of the current paradigm of consultation with peers about possible LAs. However, one special quiz answer was unique, in which the idiosyncratic AC ruling was supported by the majority of MSC panellists. WEST EAST 1NT 4H(1) 4S(2) 5H ? (1) Texas transfer to spades (2) A slight underbid; West had maximum values, 4-card spade support, and slam-suitable honours The majority of MSC panellists passed, and a significant number of those did not consider any other call. The AC also supported the legality of a Pass of 5H - despite additionally transmitted UI - on the grounds that 5H was obviously showing a memory lapse, not the alternative (and systemic) meaning of a slam try in spades. It is easy for a TD to give a ruling in cases where UI gives a player a chance to recover from a pre-existing misbid. It is less easy for a TD to give a ruling in cases where UI gives a player a chance to avert a potential misbid. In potential misbid cases, what is relevant for a balance- of-probablities assessment is the memorability of the agreed convention. As Harrison-Gray demonstrated in his history of Texas, some conventions, such as 1NT - 4H = spades, are easier to forget than others. In a parallel thread "An LA for one side only", I noted that a bunny providing UI that 1NT - (Pass) - 2D was a Jacoby transfer was irrelevant, since Jacoby transfers are now very memorable (mostly because of their frequency). All bunnies, except rank beginners, have no difficulty remembering the Jacoby transfer convention nowadays. On the other hand, an infrequent and natural-sounding high- level forcing pass is less memorable. So, a sloooow forcing pass should give any TD pause before that TD rules that the partner of the sloooow forcing passer would automatically have remembered their partnership agreement. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From adam at tameware.com Wed Feb 16 05:19:43 2005 From: adam at tameware.com (Adam Wildavsky) Date: Wed Feb 16 05:28:00 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:01 AM +1100 2/16/05, richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: >Adam's advice is that Zia consider saying, "I intended my bid to >confuse you about my actual holding of a worthless doubleton." Please read my original note again. I suggest that he say that only when he believes that it is in his interest to do so. Here he would do so if he expected the TD and the A/C to rule that his actual agreement was that a cue-bid denied a control. That can't be likely, so he'd have no reason to expose his ruse. Contrast that with the case in question. -- Adam Wildavsky http://www.tameware.com From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 16 06:31:17 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 16 06:43:21 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard's rhetoric: >>>Adam's advice is that Zia consider saying, "I intended my bid to >>>confuse you about my actual holding of a worthless doubleton." Adam's dream: >>Please read my original note again. I suggest that he say that only >>when he believes that it is in his interest to do so. Here he would >>do so if he expected the TD and the A/C to rule that his actual >>agreement was that a cue-bid denied a control. That can't be likely, >>so he'd have no reason to expose his ruse. Contrast that with the >>case in question. George Bernard Shaw (Back to Methuselah): >"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never >were; and I say, 'Why not?'." Richard's seeing of things: In my personal philosophy, I believe that Adam asking "Why not?" about his advice is tainted with the bridge equivalent of Original Sin. The opening scene of Shaw's play Back to Methuselah was set in the Garden of Eden, and the above quoted dialogue was given to the Serpent. If a player sees that they have partnership agreement X, but suspects that a TD might use a Law 85 assessment to dream that the player has a partnership agreement Y, then why should the player (in effect) lie about what they see by relating to the opponents what a TD might dream? I dispute the previous quibble that describing your actual cards is not (in effect) a lie about your actual partnership agreement, but instead an additional unnecessary delivery of information to the opponents. If it is unnecessary, it is contrary to the Eden of bridge as a game of perfect information about agreements *but* limited information about cards. It may be in a player's short term interest to (in effect) lie about their actual partnership agreement, by ignoring the intent of Law 75B, but in the long term a TD will be further encouraged to disregard self-serving evidence (which is still evidence) from the player about their partnership agreements. Important caveat: I agree with Adam that one should not use Law 75B to hide from your Law 75A obligation to disclose your partnership's implicit agreements and implicit non-agreements. At the table I occasionally notice mild impatience when I give punctiliously detailed explanations of my partnership's explicit and implicit agreements. :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk Tue Feb 15 18:06:40 2005 From: grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Wed Feb 16 09:50:47 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation References: Message-ID: <000b01c51404$516586c0$cdbf87d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] **************************** "My faith in the people governing is, on the whole, infinitesimal; my faith in The People governed is, on the whole, illimitable." ~ Charles Dickens. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Stevenson" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [blml] multi session score computation > I am unconvinced anyway. If one table, to get > a top, requires to beat eight other scores, and > another only needs to beat seven other scores, it > is easier to get a top at the latter table, and scoring > ought to allow for this in some way. Note that > Neuman does. > > Factoring boards to the same top seems patently > unfair, all-play-all or otherwise. > +=+ Not my specialty, but there you go.... I would have thought it fair enough in the shorter field to add a notional score in the median position. ~ G ~ +=+ From B.Schelen at IAE.NL Wed Feb 16 10:17:08 2005 From: B.Schelen at IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Wed Feb 16 10:22:53 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) References: Message-ID: <008901c51409$4497fe00$1a063dd4@c6l8v1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Bower" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:22 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) > > > On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, WILLIAM SCHODER wrote: > > > I'd like to pose a problem from real life. A play shows up who is blind. He > > has been asked to bring along a set (36) of Braille cards, and shows up with > > two decks. He intended to play for the six sessions of the weekend. What do > > you do? You have no caddies, no local help, no scorer, etc. the events are > > Friday pairs, Saturday Pairs, and Sunday Swiss Teams. He is willing to not > > play. > > I seat him South, find a fast and friendly player to seat South at the > next higher table to make his hands up for him after each board, assist > with making them as I can, and do some serious hunting for assistance > before the next day's game. (The Swiss is the real problem, I think - and > surely there will be a caddy for that day!) > > On several occasions I have been the "fast friendly player at the next > table" who was instructed to sort his cards in a certain order after every > deal, because there was a player with crippled hands at the next table. > This doesn't seem that much harder. > > I have known blind players who brought their own assistant (one a wife, > one a daughter) and who brought one or two decks of cards -- you would > actually ask someone to bring *36 decks*?? "A set" of bridge cards does of > course mean a pair of decks with matching backs, in everyday speech. I > am not sure which sounds more unreasonable - asking him to bring them at > all, or being surprised he misunderstood what you asked. > > Once I had a blind with a headrecorder because he could not read Braille. So I had to record the south hands of the boards just before each session started. No problem. Ben From grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk Wed Feb 16 10:26:25 2005 From: grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Wed Feb 16 10:37:52 2005 Subject: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association References: Message-ID: <000a01c5140a$e29c74e0$c675893e@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] **************************** "My faith in the people governing is, on the whole, infinitesimal; my faith in The People governed is, on the whole, illimitable." ~ Charles Dickens. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "WILLIAM SCHODER" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:59 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association > A posting fraught with innuendo, wild guesses, and > proprietary implications. Sure would like more information, > including some copies of this fabulous bulletin, before > swallowing the bait. > > Kojak > +=+ There is no doubt that it is a worthy publication. No need to make invidious comparisons, but the unnamed English TD is entitled to have the opinion he expresses. Kojak could probably receive it on line as I do? ~ G ~ +=+ From grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk Wed Feb 16 10:34:41 2005 From: grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Wed Feb 16 10:37:54 2005 Subject: [blml] Multiple penalty cards References: <41FD8664.4060700@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000b01c5140a$e3756fc0$c675893e@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] **************************** "My faith in the people governing is, on the whole, infinitesimal; my faith in The People governed is, on the whole, illimitable." ~ Charles Dickens. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Willner" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:14 AM Subject: [blml] Multiple penalty cards > From Grattan's report of the LC progress, the following > might be too late to be considered, but some of the earlier > discussion got me thinking about a new suggestion for Laws revision. > +=+ All is not totally lost. Although Istanbul was in theory where we were to put our act finally together - and we did cover the whole of the new book except for the definitions - some colleagues still show signs of lingering thoughts, so the chairman is likely to have a final round-up in Estoril, I would guess. That puts us about ten months behind our earlier scheduled progress. ~ G ~ +=+ . > > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, and this is a bad idea. > If not, perhaps it's time for Grattan to start his notebook > for 2017. (Sorry, Grattan. I wish I'd thought of this a year > ago, but you must have realized you would need to start a > new notebook some day.) > +=+ Ah! ... if only .... +=+ From spazyknl at level3.net Wed Feb 16 10:43:26 2005 From: spazyknl at level3.net (Maryellen Schroeder) Date: Wed Feb 16 10:45:40 2005 Subject: [blml] =?iso-8859-1?q?Chcek_This_O=FAt?= Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050216/b5115e9d/attachment.gif From john at asimere.com Wed Feb 16 11:02:39 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Wed Feb 16 11:04:27 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: <000301c513ab$4be373a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000301c513ab$4be373a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <98XOjVA$oxECFwGr@asimere.com> In article <000301c513ab$4be373a0$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >WILLIAM SCHODER >> OK, John. Please keep in mind that for a barometer you don't need a set >> of >> boards for each table. With 7 or 8 tables you could get by with 3 or 4 >> sets >> by sharing each round. I presume you would play something like 3 boards a >> round anyhow, and since all tables play the same boards, there are always >> boards available so that you can prevent having to wait > >Our experience in Norway tells us that with two boards per round we always >recommend a full set of boards to each table (Number of copies for each >board equal to the number of tables). The savings in reduced noise etc. >otherwise caused by exchanging boards far outweighs the few extra copies >needed. > >With three boards per round we typically have a number of copies equal to or >slightly greater than half the number of tables and so on. However, for >high-quality events with three boards per round we even there often provide >a full set of boards to each table. > >Regards Sven I've already replied to Kojak on this. If I had a set of boards per table it makes things easier as I'd use the endless Howell (we call it the flower movement I think). But this is a County event in a sports hall where we bring everything in and take it out again. Equally the county won't want to pay the make up costs for that many sets of boards. I insisted on 4 sets for each session (2 each for the ladies and the mens) and the players themselves expect me to run an all play all movement based on combinations of Howells and Mitchells - so this is (as Kojak points out) what is "the best we can do for the players". I agree that enough boards for a Flower is "better". Given what I have, and the fact that I didn't have time to construct the "best" movement for 7 tables (it's very elegant, and I know how to do it, but it took me two hours yesterday to get it right, just as an exercise), I did the simple thing of using a "good" movement I knew I could fudge on the day. the side effect is simply I had a top of 10 in the first half (where all the players had an opportunity to score 2 mps for each pair they beat) and a top of 12 in the 2nd session. What you are suggesting is that i should run an event where in one half i give the players an opportunity to score 2.33 mps for the first half but only 2 for 2nd half. This looks fundamentally flawed to me. (never mind the offset of 0.17 mps for each board, everyone gets that anyway.) Sven, I wouldn't be arguing this corner unless I strongly think I'm right; and the people here have, in the past, sometimes converted my point of view, and sometimes not. Is it right to score 2.33 mps for each pair you beat in one half, but only 2 mps in the 2nd half? Remember *everyone* has the same opportunity in *this* event. Why should one half reward you better? > > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From hermandw at hdw.be Wed Feb 16 11:13:44 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed Feb 16 11:12:50 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <4212377F.2030002@att.net> References: <4212377F.2030002@att.net> Message-ID: <42131CD8.5070106@hdw.be> Todd M. Zimnoch wrote: > David Stevenson wrote: > >> I am unconvinced anyway. If one table, to get a top, requires to >> beat eight other scores, and another only needs to beat seven other >> scores, it is easier to get a top at the latter table, and scoring >> ought to allow for this in some way. > > > Easier to get a bottom at the latter table too, no? I think it's a > similar luck factor like getting easy boards against experts and > difficult boards against novices. It could just as well be the other > way around. > Since we are talking about declaring a winner to this tournament, it is fair to say that the contenders for that post will have more tops than bottoms, so the effects (for them) will noet even out! > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From john at asimere.com Wed Feb 16 11:11:22 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Wed Feb 16 11:12:53 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: References: <000301c513ab$4be373a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article , WILLIAM SCHODER writes >Please don't for a minute think that I'm advising being "cheap" about >running events. I much prefer a set of boards for each table at any level, >but I can sometimes forgive the inertia that overcomes those to whom >duplicating or sharing is "too much work." I'm simply advising that there >are less desirable alternatives than to play a game which has differing tops >for each session of a play-through event. And also reminding that it is in >fact somewhat easier than when just two tables are on relay. Sure, you may >run the legs out of you're ass making it work smoothly, but isn't that what >you are there for? Also, there is a strong "LOCAL" feeling that often >enters into what you play. You want the best -- DO IT -- but if you don't >want it then accept the limitations, and may they never make a difference in >the winner, no matter which self-styled guru you wish to follow. > >I'd like to pose a problem from real life. A play shows up who is blind. He >has been asked to bring along a set (36) of Braille cards, and shows up with >two decks. He intended to play for the six sessions of the weekend. What do >you do? You have no caddies, no local help, no scorer, etc. the events are >Friday pairs, Saturday Pairs, and Sunday Swiss Teams. He is willing to not >play. It is just possible in the pairs, if you have an extra set of boards. Take all the cards out of them, and as each deal is played at the blind table the table passing makes up the hands into the empty set and passes both boards on. Once played the cards are passed back for the next make up. It is a huge strain on the passing table. I'd put a pair of students in the NS seats with a free entry. For the teams it can be done, by cutting 1 board from the schedule and dealing at the blind table, passing the boards as played to the next table. I'd be inclined not to accept the entry even so. The player has not met our requirements for entry. > >Kojak > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sven Pran" >To: "blml" >Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 5:11 PM >Subject: RE: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) > > >WILLIAM SCHODER >> OK, John. Please keep in mind that for a barometer you don't need a set >> of >> boards for each table. With 7 or 8 tables you could get by with 3 or 4 >> sets >> by sharing each round. I presume you would play something like 3 boards a >> round anyhow, and since all tables play the same boards, there are always >> boards available so that you can prevent having to wait > >Our experience in Norway tells us that with two boards per round we always >recommend a full set of boards to each table (Number of copies for each >board equal to the number of tables). The savings in reduced noise etc. >otherwise caused by exchanging boards far outweighs the few extra copies >needed. > >With three boards per round we typically have a number of copies equal to or >slightly greater than half the number of tables and so on. However, for >high-quality events with three boards per round we even there often provide >a full set of boards to each table. > >Regards Sven > > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From hermandw at hdw.be Wed Feb 16 11:19:45 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed Feb 16 11:18:51 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42131E41.6010804@hdw.be> John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > > Nope we're not misunderstanding. I'm raising a point regarding a very > specific instance (ie all-play-all, multiple sessions, fresh boards each > session, different tops in different sessions). I think one should not > factor. We have two entrenched schools of thought here in the uk, and > I'm hoping to get to an agreement. fwiw, Manning (the sadly deceased > movement and scoring guru), David Martin (brilliant movement > theoretician, and very good on scoring) and myself are in the camp that > wants to add raw scores. Max is currently with the factoring camp. By > factoring we can assume Neuberg (=your fouled board procedure). > If I have understood David Manning at all (and he's so brilliant I don't pretend to understand all of it) he is against Neuberg on very different reasons than others. He's also against Neuberg on simple fouled boards. But if you are going to use Neuberg for one problem, then you should also use Neuberg for the other. Look at it like this. In the first session, you have tops 16, but on one board there is one AS. The pair that has the lone best score on that board receives a score of (14+1)/8*9-1= 15.875 = 99.22%. In the second session, you have top 14, and someone who has the lone best score on such a board gets 14/14=100%. Yet they have done precisely the same thing: beaten all 7 other tables. > The area is a very small one where my interest and concern lies. > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Wed Feb 16 12:01:36 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed Feb 16 12:01:45 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: <98XOjVA$oxECFwGr@asimere.com> Message-ID: <000001c51416$e226d940$6900a8c0@WINXP> John (MadDog) Probst ................ > Sven, I wouldn't be arguing this corner unless I strongly think I'm > right; and the people here have, in the past, sometimes converted my > point of view, and sometimes not. > > Is it right to score 2.33 mps for each pair you beat in one half, but > only 2 mps in the 2nd half? Remember *everyone* has the same opportunity > in *this* event. Why should one half reward you better? I am confused on several issues here, but first of all it appears to me that the whole concept hardly seems relevant the way we organize our events in Norway. Barometer events with endless Howell movements have long ago become the "standard" for our pair's events. Splitting the field into groups does not simplify the arrangement in any way once we have the resources for pre-dealing the sufficient number of copies for each board. And we have. That being said I think it is correct to have a greater effective score than 2MP for each pair you beat when the actual score must be adjusted for a greater field. The effective score must reflect the probability of your score had you actually played in the greater field and must be determined using statistic tools. Now, for instance an absolute bottom in the smaller field should not be an absolute bottom (zero MP) in the greater field because of the (small) probability that the "missing" pair would have scored even worse. Similarly an absolute top in the smaller field should be slightly less than an absolute top in the greater field, and of course all the intermediate scores should be evenly spread between the effective tops and bottoms in the greater field. This is adequately taken care of by Neuberg as long as you calculate all scores off the average rather than off bottom (i.e. by Ascherman). So my answer to you is yes, if the adjustments are for 6 tables converted to 7 tables then the converted MP should be 2.33 for each pair beaten making the converted absolute bottom 0.16 and the converted absolute top 11.83 (minus and plus 35/6 respectively). Regards Sven From svenpran at online.no Wed Feb 16 12:06:14 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed Feb 16 12:06:22 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <42131E41.6010804@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000101c51417$880528d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Herman De Wael ............ > Look at it like this. In the first session, you have tops 16, but on > one board there is one AS. The pair that has the lone best score on > that board receives a score of (14+1)/8*9-1= 15.875 = 99.22%. > In the second session, you have top 14, and someone who has the lone > best score on such a board gets 14/14=100%. Yet they have done > precisely the same thing: beaten all 7 other tables. > > > The area is a very small one where my interest and concern lies. There is a (statistical) probability that the competitor receiving an AS in the first session would have beaten "you" had they played the board normally. This probability is reflected in the result 99.22% rather than a full 100%. Sven From hermandw at hdw.be Wed Feb 16 14:36:01 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed Feb 16 14:35:11 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: <98XOjVA$oxECFwGr@asimere.com> References: <000301c513ab$4be373a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> <98XOjVA$oxECFwGr@asimere.com> Message-ID: <42134C41.5030306@hdw.be> John , you forget one thing: John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > > the side effect is simply I had a top of 10 in the first half (where all > the players had an opportunity to score 2 mps for each pair they beat) > and a top of 12 in the 2nd session. What you are suggesting is that i > should run an event where in one half i give the players an opportunity > to score 2.33 mps for the first half but only 2 for 2nd half. This looks > fundamentally flawed to me. (never mind the offset of 0.17 mps for each > board, everyone gets that anyway.) > Don't forget that in one session, there are seven opponents you can beat, while in the other one, there are only six. Why should you get as many points per opponent, if there are more of them? If you beat all seven opponents in the one session, you get 14 points. If you beat all six in the other, you get 13.83. I believe it is right that you should get less when you beat less pairs, even if both are relatively speaking, all of the others. Anyway, this is exactly the same thing as what you do when there are only 7 scores in the 8-scores session. > Sven, I wouldn't be arguing this corner unless I strongly think I'm > right; and the people here have, in the past, sometimes converted my > point of view, and sometimes not. > > Is it right to score 2.33 mps for each pair you beat in one half, but > only 2 mps in the 2nd half? Remember *everyone* has the same opportunity > in *this* event. Why should one half reward you better? > I think it rewards you less, even. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca Wed Feb 16 15:10:24 2005 From: picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca (Laval Dubreuil) Date: Wed Feb 16 15:09:35 2005 Subject: [blml] Law 25B2b, 4th seat Message-ID: Hi BLMLrs, The auction was: N E S W 1C P P P Then, after a pause for thought, W said: "Oh! I made a stupid mistake. I wanted to bid." Director! W told to the TD he was not to the game and Passed with a very good hand. The TD, using Law 25B, allowed W change his call: - LHO did not make a subsequent call (how could he ?); - the substituted call was not accepted by LHO (25B2); - the first call was legal, but substituted by an other call (25B2b); - the auction proceeded from the new call. E-W bid and made 4H (vul) (25B2b-ii); - E-W received no more than avg-minus, N-S scored (-620). Any comment on this use of the infamous 25B2 in 4th seat ? Laval Du Breuil Quebec City From eeqsziwx at level3.net Wed Feb 16 15:45:08 2005 From: eeqsziwx at level3.net (Lela Morton) Date: Wed Feb 16 15:47:30 2005 Subject: [blml] =?iso-8859-1?q?V=E4lium_n_X=E5=F1=E4x_4_less?= Message-ID: <20050216144713.3523C7E@rhubarb.custard.org> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050216/a174c957/attachment.gif From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Wed Feb 16 16:40:07 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed Feb 16 16:40:20 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <08B35EE5-8031-11D9-A1E9-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Monday, Feb 14, 2005, at 23:53 US/Eastern, Adam Wildavsky wrote: > I don't understand. Suppose my A/C ruled that there was no LA to the > SA, or that the UI did not demonstrably suggest the SA, and we on that > account did not adjust the score. Supose we then assessed a 1/4 board > penalty against E/W for East's improper remark, say under Law 72b1. > Would that be illegal? That was what I meant to propose. No, not illegal. But it is not a split score, either. It is not a score adjustment at all. I perceive amongst at least some players and club level TDs the impression that one can use a PP to "adjust the score" even when Law 12 doesn't allow a score adjustment. IMO this is an incorrect and dangerous mindset. You give PPs for procedural violations, not to "restore equity" or adjust the score on a board. From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Wed Feb 16 16:50:14 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed Feb 16 16:50:25 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <000601c51355$c0358cd0$50b387d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> Message-ID: <72EA6301-8032-11D9-A1E9-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005, at 06:24 US/Eastern, Grattan Endicott wrote: > +=+ As though we would have overlooked the question! Such > lack of faith! Not lack of faith, merely uncertainty on my part, since I'm not privy to the deliberations. :-) > But even should we write the law this way, two > independent decisions will still have a single cumulative effect. Granted, but I think it's important we distinguish between penalties for procedural violations and score adjustments whose purpose is to redress damage. Both players and directors need to understand the distinction. I grant there will be some who will not, whatever we do, but, as we used to say in the Navy, there's always some who do not get the Word. > There are alternative philosophies in this depending whether > or no one considers that a corrective adjustment should incorporate > a retributional element. I am known to be amongst the Noes on it, > since I believe it was not part of the original concept of score > adjustment and is a later distortion of it. I'm with you. :-) I wonder though, whether the new Laws will choose one or the other, or leave it up to subordinate organizations. This is one area where I think delegating the decision would be a bad move. Ah, well, "waiting is", as the Martian said. :-) From svenpran at online.no Wed Feb 16 18:16:25 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed Feb 16 18:16:33 2005 Subject: [blml] Law 25B2b, 4th seat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5144b$3e895ee0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Laval Dubreuil > Sent: 16. februar 2005 15:10 > To: BLML > Subject: [blml] Law 25B2b, 4th seat > > Hi BLMLrs, > > The auction was: > > N E S W > 1C P P P > > Then, after a pause for thought, W said: > "Oh! I made a stupid mistake. I wanted to bid." > Director! > > W told to the TD he was not to the game and Passed with > a very good hand. > The TD, using Law 25B, allowed W change his call: > - LHO did not make a subsequent call (how could he ?); > - the substituted call was not accepted by LHO (25B2); > - the first call was legal, but substituted by an other > call (25B2b); > - the auction proceeded from the new call. E-W bid and > made 4H (vul) (25B2b-ii); > - E-W received no more than avg-minus, N-S scored (-620). > > Any comment on this use of the infamous 25B2 in 4th seat ? Yes, it illustrates perfectly how a badly written law can be worse than anything. When they made out the current Law 25B then apparently nobody thought of how to handle the case when the offender (who wants to change his call) actually provided the third pass in a row. A similar situation exists for an offender who inadvertently provides the second of three passes in a row: When does his right to change his call under L25A expire (his partner may not make another call in the original auction). Looking forward to see the next version of Law 25. Sven From blml at blakjak.com Wed Feb 16 18:31:43 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed Feb 16 18:32:59 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06JCStF$N4ECFw3Z@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Gordon Bower wrote >On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, WILLIAM SCHODER wrote: > >> I'd like to pose a problem from real life. A play shows up who is blind. He >> has been asked to bring along a set (36) of Braille cards, and shows up with >> two decks. He intended to play for the six sessions of the weekend. What do >> you do? You have no caddies, no local help, no scorer, etc. the events are >> Friday pairs, Saturday Pairs, and Sunday Swiss Teams. He is willing to not >> play. > >I seat him South, find a fast and friendly player to seat South at the >next higher table to make his hands up for him after each board, assist >with making them as I can, and do some serious hunting for assistance >before the next day's game. (The Swiss is the real problem, I think - and >surely there will be a caddy for that day!) Swiss Teams? Could not they just play with the two decks, dealing them, playing them, sending them to the other table to play them there, bringing them back to deal again? >On several occasions I have been the "fast friendly player at the next >table" who was instructed to sort his cards in a certain order after every >deal, because there was a player with crippled hands at the next table. >This doesn't seem that much harder. We do have a player who says she needs sorted cards. Unfortunately she has tended to get under people's skins so the TD has to do the sorting. >I have known blind players who brought their own assistant (one a wife, >one a daughter) and who brought one or two decks of cards -- you would >actually ask someone to bring *36 decks*?? "A set" of bridge cards does of >course mean a pair of decks with matching backs, in everyday speech. I >am not sure which sounds more unreasonable - asking him to bring them at >all, or being surprised he misunderstood what you asked. We had a married couple who routinely brought there own 'set' of cards: 32 braille packs in 32 boards. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 16 22:42:21 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 16 23:02:51 2005 Subject: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard: >>>>The Australian Bridge Directors Association has a new website: >>>> >>>>http://www.abf.com.au/directors/ >>>> >>>>A prominent English Director and blmler has oft stated his >>>>opinion that the ABDA Bulletin is the best of its type in the >>>>world. Kojak: >>>A posting fraught with innuendo, wild guesses, and >>>proprietary implications. Sure would like more information, >>>including some copies of this fabulous bulletin, before >>>swallowing the bait. Grattan: >>+=+ There is no doubt that it is a worthy publication. No need >>to make invidious comparisons, but the unnamed English TD >>is entitled to have the opinion he expresses. Kojak could >>probably receive it on line as I do? >> ~ G ~ +=+ English Bridge Union appeals casebook 2003, introduction: [snip] >Many of the commentators are subscribers to the bridge-laws >mailing list, the best international discussion of the Laws of >Bridge on the internet: if you are interested in joining (it's >free!) the Editor will provide details. The Editor can also >provide details of how to subscribe (including how much it >costs) to the Australian Director's Bulletin, the foremost >magazine for Tournament Directors in the world. Richard: The ABDA is a not-for-profit organisation owned by its members. Overseas members are welcome. To download a membership application form, visit their website above. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From ehaa at starpower.net Wed Feb 16 23:22:29 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Wed Feb 16 23:18:29 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <08B35EE5-8031-11D9-A1E9-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <08B35EE5-8031-11D9-A1E9-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050216164832.02ac6090@pop.starpower.net> At 10:40 AM 2/16/05, Ed wrote: >On Monday, Feb 14, 2005, at 23:53 US/Eastern, Adam Wildavsky wrote: > >>I don't understand. Suppose my A/C ruled that there was no LA to the >>SA, or that the UI did not demonstrably suggest the SA, and we on >>that account did not adjust the score. Supose we then assessed a 1/4 >>board penalty against E/W for East's improper remark, say under Law >>72b1. Would that be illegal? That was what I meant to propose. > >No, not illegal. But it is not a split score, either. It is not a >score adjustment at all. > >I perceive amongst at least some players and club level TDs the >impression that one can use a PP to "adjust the score" even when Law >12 doesn't allow a score adjustment. IMO this is an incorrect and >dangerous mindset. You give PPs for procedural violations, not to >"restore equity" or adjust the score on a board. I think that Ed's use of "illegal" is meant to be interpreted to mean "contrary to the intent of the Law". In this case, ISTM that the "intent" is sufficiently obvious from the text as not to require being explicitly stated. When an infraction has occurred, and the NOS has been damaged by it, the TD adjusts the score to attempt to restore equity. His decision to do so should depend on his determinations that there has been an infraction and that the NOS was damaged by it. When there has been a procedural violation, the TD may issue a PP. His decision to do so should depend on the nature and severity of the violation and, if known, on the offender's history of previous violations. These depend on entirely different criteria. Therefore the Law must intend the TD to decide each of them on their own merits. They are independent; there is no basis in law for the outcome of either of these decisions to affect the outcome of the other. The "mindset" Ed objects to occurs when a player takes an action that is simultaneously an infraction and a procedural violation (as most infractions are), and the TD fails to distinguish between the consequent adjustment and PP decisions, resulting in his attempting to resolve both in a single ruling without separating the disjoint criteria prescribed for each of the component decisions. Adam's example is, of course, entirely legal and appropriate. Ed's point requires imagining that someone on the AC now says something like, "Wait a minute, we forgot to think about...," so the AC takes a second look at the LAs and suggested choices, and decides to change their mind and adjust the score after all. If, now, they collectively say, "Well, OK, we've decided to give E-W an unfavorable adjustment, so we won't give the PP", that's what Ed is calling illegal. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From bwmtwjzoejth at go2.pl Thu Feb 17 09:02:15 2005 From: bwmtwjzoejth at go2.pl (Sonia Wise) Date: Thu Feb 17 09:06:33 2005 Subject: [blml] Is your Rent too high? Message-ID: <68WR87FE-0A24-11D7-A3B5-0050E4C05556@iwr.uni-heidelberg.de> There was never a better time to refinance your home. Rates are at a 40 year low. Now more than ever you should grab the opportunity to gain financial security for yourself and your families future. Go here to change your life forever. http://www.rgeg546.com/ NO THANKS http://www.rgeg546.com/gone.asp From john at asimere.com Thu Feb 17 10:34:46 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Thu Feb 17 10:36:22 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000101c51417$880528d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <42131E41.6010804@hdw.be> <000101c51417$880528d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article <000101c51417$880528d0$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >Herman De Wael >............ >> Look at it like this. In the first session, you have tops 16, but on >> one board there is one AS. The pair that has the lone best score on >> that board receives a score of (14+1)/8*9-1= 15.875 = 99.22%. >> In the second session, you have top 14, and someone who has the lone >> best score on such a board gets 14/14=100%. Yet they have done >> precisely the same thing: beaten all 7 other tables. >> >> > The area is a very small one where my interest and concern lies. > >There is a (statistical) probability that the competitor receiving an AS in >the first session would have beaten "you" had they played the board >normally. > >This probability is reflected in the result 99.22% rather than a full 100%. Since in the ladies I had a sitout and the movement was incomplete, I did factor the matchpoints within the session for the boards played fewer times. This does represent the probability of that score being achieved had the missing pair existed. I also did it for the boards that the late arrival didn't play. Once I'd done that I still added the raw scores together and expressed the overall rankings as a percentage of matchpoints earnt/matchpoints available. > >Sven > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Thu Feb 17 10:37:52 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Thu Feb 17 10:39:44 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: <000001c51416$e226d940$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <98XOjVA$oxECFwGr@asimere.com> <000001c51416$e226d940$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article <000001c51416$e226d940$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >John (MadDog) Probst >................ >> Sven, I wouldn't be arguing this corner unless I strongly think I'm >> right; and the people here have, in the past, sometimes converted my >> point of view, and sometimes not. >> >> Is it right to score 2.33 mps for each pair you beat in one half, but >> only 2 mps in the 2nd half? Remember *everyone* has the same opportunity >> in *this* event. Why should one half reward you better? > > >So my answer to you is yes, if the adjustments are for 6 tables converted to >7 tables then the converted MP should be 2.33 for each pair beaten making >the converted absolute bottom 0.16 and the converted absolute top 11.83 >(minus and plus 35/6 respectively). So if the luck of the draw is that I'm playing against the bunnies in the 2.33 matchpoint session I'll pick up an extra 8 or so matchpoints for nothing? > >Regards Sven > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From ddpliztybvbf at aplatform.com Thu Feb 17 11:21:29 2005 From: ddpliztybvbf at aplatform.com (Dennis Maher) Date: Thu Feb 17 11:27:50 2005 Subject: [blml] is your wife a spy Message-ID: <200366566072.HCC42957@boxwood.koll.se> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 9093 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050217/f5489c2b/attachment-0001.gif From zblwkcwuzkwj at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 11:29:00 2005 From: zblwkcwuzkwj at yahoo.com (Glenda Scott) Date: Thu Feb 17 11:31:16 2005 Subject: [blml] Re [15]: Message-ID: <20050217103102.4D993147@rhubarb.custard.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050217/756d2f70/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: incommensurable.GIF Type: image/gif Size: 7360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050217/756d2f70/incommensurable.gif From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 17 11:52:37 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 17 11:52:46 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c514de$cb35c0c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of John (MadDog) Probst ............. > > So my answer to you is yes, if the adjustments are for 6 tables > > converted to 7 tables then the converted MP should be 2.33 for > > each pair beaten making the converted absolute bottom 0.16 and > > the converted absolute top 11.83 (minus and plus 35/6 respectively). > > So if the luck of the draw is that I'm playing against the bunnies in > the 2.33 matchpoint session I'll pick up an extra 8 or so matchpoints > for nothing? Are we speaking the same language? Where do you find these 8 or so MPs? The scores for 6 tables of -5, -3, -1, +1, +3 and +5 when converted to scores for 7 tables become: -5.83, -3.50, -1.16, +1.16, +3.50 and +5.83 What scores do you want them to become? Sven From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 17 12:03:49 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 17 12:04:06 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c514e0$5cd4d8d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of John (MadDog) Probst > writes ............... > >There is a (statistical) probability that the competitor > >receiving an AS in the first session would have beaten > >"you" had they played the board normally. > >This probability is reflected in the result 99.22% rather > >than a full 100%. > > Since in the ladies I had a sitout and the movement was incomplete, I > did factor the matchpoints within the session for the boards played > fewer times. This does represent the probability of that score being > achieved had the missing pair existed. I just do not understand how this can be unless "factoring" works the same way as using Neuberg (prediction using statistical methods) which I understand is not the case. I thought I knew what "factoring" is but maybe I have misunderstood? Sven > I also did it for the boards that > the late arrival didn't play. Once I'd done that I still added the raw > scores together and expressed the overall rankings as a percentage of > matchpoints earnt/matchpoints available. From blml at blakjak.com Thu Feb 17 13:07:32 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Thu Feb 17 13:09:19 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000101c514e0$5cd4d8d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000101c514e0$5cd4d8d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> On Behalf Of John (MadDog) Probst >> writes >............... >> >There is a (statistical) probability that the competitor >> >receiving an AS in the first session would have beaten >> >"you" had they played the board normally. >> >This probability is reflected in the result 99.22% rather >> >than a full 100%. >> >> Since in the ladies I had a sitout and the movement was incomplete, I >> did factor the matchpoints within the session for the boards played >> fewer times. This does represent the probability of that score being >> achieved had the missing pair existed. > >I just do not understand how this can be unless "factoring" works the same >way as using Neuberg (prediction using statistical methods) which I >understand is not the case. > >I thought I knew what "factoring" is but maybe I have misunderstood? If you have seven scores from eight tables then you multiply the scores by 7/6. That's factoring, and means that it is easier to get a top from seven scores than from eight. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From ulilpkrm at dartmail.net Thu Feb 17 13:40:44 2005 From: ulilpkrm at dartmail.net (Ali Maxwell) Date: Thu Feb 17 13:43:01 2005 Subject: [blml] Antyihng u need 4 lses Message-ID: <20050217124249.0824920@rhubarb.custard.org> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050217/cf3a4273/attachment.gif From danno at pokemates.com Thu Feb 17 13:06:44 2005 From: danno at pokemates.com (christine gordon) Date: Thu Feb 17 16:00:03 2005 Subject: [blml] male enhancement Message-ID: <5F33E5CF.0CEC2C9@pokemates.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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We AlsO have in Stock: X*A'N*A'X 1 m'g 30 Pi||S 79.oo P.R'0,Z.A,C 20 m.g 30 Pi||S 11o.oo P.A,X*1*L 2o m.g 2o P||LS 155.O0 M'E,R,I*D,I,A 1o m*g 3o P!|LS 147.0o best regards, Mitchell Durham Pawnbroker MSI - INSTRUMENTS, SIALKOT - 51310, Pakistan Phone: 446-457-9137 Mobile: 128-591-8664 Email: nkkilfgrkjxoii@fortunecity.com THIS IS AN AUTO-GENERATED MESSAGE - PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE This download is a 6[2 From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 17 19:08:15 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 17 19:08:25 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5151b$a6cf9750$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of David Stevenson > >............... > >I thought I knew what "factoring" is but maybe I have misunderstood? > > If you have seven scores from eight tables then you multiply the > scores by 7/6. That's factoring, and means that it is easier to get a > top from seven scores than from eight. So I thought, except that I would use the factor 8/7, not 7/6 in this case, and I would calculate all scores (before and after correction) relative to average instead of relative to absolute bottom. That 8/7 is slightly less than 7/6 is the statistical consequence of the fact that it is easier to obtain a top with fewer scores. Actually this is the principle behind Ascherman and Neuberg, a principle I find most fair in all cases where a score must be adapted to a different field size. Regards Sven From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Thu Feb 17 19:32:01 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Thu Feb 17 19:32:14 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050216164832.02ac6090@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <36FC2416-8112-11D9-A24B-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Feb 16, 2005, at 17:22 US/Eastern, Eric Landau wrote: > The "mindset" Ed objects to occurs when a player takes an action that > is simultaneously an infraction and a procedural violation (as most > infractions are), and the TD fails to distinguish between the > consequent adjustment and PP decisions, resulting in his attempting to > resolve both in a single ruling without separating the disjoint > criteria prescribed for each of the component decisions. Yes. Even more so when the TD says (or implies) that a PP was given "to restore equity" or "to ensure OS do not profit". > Adam's example is, of course, entirely legal and appropriate. Ed's > point requires imagining that someone on the AC now says something > like, "Wait a minute, we forgot to think about...," so the AC takes a > second look at the LAs and suggested choices, and decides to change > their mind and adjust the score after all. If, now, they collectively > say, "Well, OK, we've decided to give E-W an unfavorable adjustment, > so we won't give the PP", that's what Ed is calling illegal. That's one example, yeah. From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Feb 17 20:08:36 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Thu Feb 17 20:08:39 2005 Subject: [blml] Re: factoring In-Reply-To: <200502171757.j1HHvDns002699@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502171757.j1HHvDns002699@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <4214EBB4.40009@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: David Stevenson > If you have seven scores from eight tables then you multiply the > scores by 7/6. That's factoring, and means that it is easier to get a > top from seven scores than from eight. 'Factoring' is a word that has a couple of related but slightly different meanings. As a broad term, it means the process of recomputing scores to compare boards with differing tops or contestants who have played different numbers of boards. 'Factoring' is also used in a narrow sense for the specific computation of simply multiplying by an appropriate ratio, as David says above. Usually it is clear in context which meaning is intended. The Neuberg formula is an example of factoring in the broad sense but not the narrow one. I'm afraid I created the confusion by using 'factoring' in its broad sense in private email, where I expected it to be understood. However, when the message was excerpted (with my permission) to BLML, the word might have come across as meaning the narrow sense only. From: "Grattan Endicott" > I would have thought it fair enough in the shorter field to add > a notional score in the median position. This would be another example of "factoring" in the broad sense but not the narrow one, though I have never seen this method used in practice. The problem is that it separates scores in the middle more than seems desirable: a score just above the median gains a whole matchpoint, while a score just below gains nothing at all. Both Neuberg and factoring (narrow sense) "stretch" the entire range of scores rather than putting a "splice" in the middle. I have never seen a demonstration that any specific method of factoring (broad sense) is mathematically sound. On the whole, I think Neuberg is the best of what's available, but in the absence of agreement on what the proper criteria are, it is to be expected that there will be disagreement. (What is the name of the "somebody's paradox" that says the best estimate of e.g. future batting performance is not the player's actual batting average but rather something that also takes into account the average of all other players? I suspect something along these lines could give a factoring formula with a mathematical basis, but I bet it wouldn't differ from Neuberg by very much.) From RYMEWOW at panacya.com Thu Feb 17 21:04:09 2005 From: RYMEWOW at panacya.com (Chelsea Goodwin) Date: Thu Feb 17 21:13:49 2005 Subject: [blml] Consolidate-bills into one compact-payment Message-ID: Homeowners - do you have less-than-perfect credit* We'll quickly match you up with the BEST provider based on YOUR NEEDS. Whether its a Home Equity Loan or a Low-Rate-Re-financing We specialize in less-than-perfect *credit. We'll help you get the YES! you deserve. http://www.mortslow.net/index2.php?refid=vik From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 17 05:39:30 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 17 22:49:15 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <00a501c5138d$fe223ba0$47063dd4@c6l8v1> Message-ID: Ben Schelen: >There was a problem with the boards, but, in The >Netherlands a director has learned that a score on >the board is needed. So the board must be finished >and the start of the following round is postponed. [snip] Richard Hills: If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the cancellation of a partially completed board, then Ben is right. Otherwise, there is no "must" about postponement of the following round. The Laws definitely give a TD the power to cancel a partially completed board due to unduly slow play caused by the two offending sides, consequently awarding Ave- to each of them. References: Law 90B2, Law 82B1, Law 12A2, Law 12C1 Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From john at asimere.com Thu Feb 17 23:00:32 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:01:51 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000101c514e0$5cd4d8d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000101c514e0$5cd4d8d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article <000101c514e0$5cd4d8d0$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >> On Behalf Of John (MadDog) Probst >> writes >............... >> >There is a (statistical) probability that the competitor >> >receiving an AS in the first session would have beaten >> >"you" had they played the board normally. >> >This probability is reflected in the result 99.22% rather >> >than a full 100%. >> >> Since in the ladies I had a sitout and the movement was incomplete, I >> did factor the matchpoints within the session for the boards played >> fewer times. This does represent the probability of that score being >> achieved had the missing pair existed. > >I just do not understand how this can be unless "factoring" works the same >way as using Neuberg (prediction using statistical methods) which I >understand is not the case. > >I thought I knew what "factoring" is but maybe I have misunderstood? I'm loosely using "factoring" to mean Neuberg. I used Neuberg within each session to ensure that within the session the tops were equivalent. But when it came to adding the scores I then added the scores computed for each session together without further factoring. > >Sven > >> I also did it for the boards that >> the late arrival didn't play. Once I'd done that I still added the raw >> scores together and expressed the overall rankings as a percentage of >> matchpoints earnt/matchpoints available. > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Thu Feb 17 23:01:45 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:03:07 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: <000101c514e0$5cd4d8d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article , David Stevenson writes >Sven Pran wrote >>> On Behalf Of John (MadDog) Probst >>> writes >>............... >>> >There is a (statistical) probability that the competitor >>> >receiving an AS in the first session would have beaten >>> >"you" had they played the board normally. >>> >This probability is reflected in the result 99.22% rather >>> >than a full 100%. >>> >>> Since in the ladies I had a sitout and the movement was incomplete, I >>> did factor the matchpoints within the session for the boards played >>> fewer times. This does represent the probability of that score being >>> achieved had the missing pair existed. >> >>I just do not understand how this can be unless "factoring" works the same >>way as using Neuberg (prediction using statistical methods) which I >>understand is not the case. >> >>I thought I knew what "factoring" is but maybe I have misunderstood? > > If you have seven scores from eight tables then you multiply the >scores by 7/6. That's factoring, and means that it is easier to get a >top from seven scores than from eight. Yes, I was being unclear. I would never factor. I used the term loosely to mean I'd use Neuberg. > -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 17 06:54:47 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:04:09 2005 Subject: [blml] Law 25B2b, 4th seat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laval Du Breuil asked: [snip] >Any comment on this use of the infamous 25B2 in 4th seat ? Richard Hills replies: Law 25B, first three words -> "Until LHO calls...." Law 17E, End of Auction Period -> "The auction period ends when all four players pass or when after three passes in rotation have followed any call the opening lead is faced (when a pass out of rotation has been accepted, see Law 34)." Laval's problem is relatively trivial, since the initial auction was a 1C opening bid notionally followed by three passes. And the opening lead was not yet faced at the time the TD was summoned. A nastier and paradoxical problem would have been created if the notional auction had been (with West dealer): WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH Pass Pass Pass Pass and South had then summoned the TD, requesting permission to invoke Law 25B. Off-topic -> Nowadays it is conceivable that an "all pass" auction could include MI. For example: WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH Pass(1) Pass(1) Pass(2) Pass(1) (3) (1) A normal pass, could be a balanced 11 hcp. (2) By partnership agreement, a third seat pass guarantees 0-7 hcp, but East's pass was not alerted by West. (3) After South passes, East summons the TD and corrects West's MI, pursuant to Law 75D2. In all other Law 75D2 situations in which a non-declaring side is informed about previous MI and given a correction, a member of the non-declaring side has the TD give them a Law 21B1 option to possibly restart the auction. But, as Law 17E is currently written, South does not have a Law 21B1 option in this auction. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From john at asimere.com Thu Feb 17 23:06:14 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:07:49 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: <000001c514de$cb35c0c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000001c514de$cb35c0c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article <000001c514de$cb35c0c0$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >> On Behalf Of John (MadDog) Probst >............. >> > So my answer to you is yes, if the adjustments are for 6 tables >> > converted to 7 tables then the converted MP should be 2.33 for >> > each pair beaten making the converted absolute bottom 0.16 and >> > the converted absolute top 11.83 (minus and plus 35/6 respectively). >> >> So if the luck of the draw is that I'm playing against the bunnies in >> the 2.33 matchpoint session I'll pick up an extra 8 or so matchpoints >> for nothing? > >Are we speaking the same language? Where do you find these 8 or so MPs? > >The scores for 6 tables of -5, -3, -1, +1, +3 and +5 when converted to >scores for 7 tables become: > >-5.83, -3.50, -1.16, +1.16, +3.50 and +5.83 > >What scores do you want them to become? I agree with these scores. I agree it doesn't matter if i use Scandinavian, British or American scoring. The question is: Should I use Neuberg on the first session to make the tops equivalent before adding the matchpoints for the final ranking list. Since a single session is incomplete I use Neuberg. Since the total event is all play all I use raw score. If I score 60% in the first set and 50% in the second I'm about 6 or 8 matchpoints better off than if I did this the other way round. These matchpoints are "free". They are the ones I'm trying to get rid of. > >Sven > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 17 23:10:04 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:10:12 2005 Subject: [blml] Law 25B2b, 4th seat In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:54:47 +1100." Message-ID: <200502172209.OAA32248@mailhub.irvine.com> Richard Hills wrote: > Off-topic -> > > Nowadays it is conceivable that an "all pass" auction could > include MI. > > For example: > > WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH > Pass(1) Pass(1) Pass(2) Pass(1) > (3) > > (1) A normal pass, could be a balanced 11 hcp. > (2) By partnership agreement, a third seat pass guarantees > 0-7 hcp, but East's pass was not alerted by West. > (3) After South passes, East summons the TD and corrects > West's MI, pursuant to Law 75D2. Actually, Law 75D2 doesn't really apply here, as it's written!! It says, "After calling the Director at the earliest legal opportunity (after the final pass, if he is to be declarer or dummy, after play ends, if he is to be a defender), the player must inform the opponents that, ... Well, which is it? East is not going to be declarer or dummy, and he is not going to be a defender, so there is apparently no legal opportunity for him to call the Director. So you can add Law 75D2 to the list of Laws that needs a rewrite to deal with the all-pass auction. > In all other Law 75D2 situations in which a non-declaring > side is informed about previous MI and given a correction, a > member of the non-declaring side has the TD give them a Law > 21B1 option to possibly restart the auction. But, as Law 17E > is currently written, South does not have a Law 21B1 option > in this auction. -- Adam From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 17 23:10:45 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:10:55 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c5153d$8718e070$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of richard.hills@immi.gov.au ............. > If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the > cancellation of a partially completed board, then > Ben is right. > > Otherwise, there is no "must" about postponement of > the following round. The Laws definitely give a TD > the power to cancel a partially completed board due > to unduly slow play caused by the two offending > sides, consequently awarding Ave- to each of them. > > References: Law 90B2, Law 82B1, Law 12A2, Law 12C1 None of these laws gives the Director the power to terminate a board in play. This is not a matter of regulation. You had better look at Law 8B End of Round: In general a round ends when the Director gives the signal for the start of the following round; but if any table has not completed play by that time, the round continues for that table until there has been a progression of players. A board in play shall never be terminated prematurely by the Director. Sven From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 17 23:46:13 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:46:23 2005 Subject: [blml] Number of boards for barometer (was multi-session...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c51542$7bcb6800$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of John (MadDog) Probst ............... > >The scores for 6 tables of -5, -3, -1, +1, +3 and +5 when converted to > >scores for 7 tables become: > > > >-5.83, -3.50, -1.16, +1.16, +3.50 and +5.83 > > > >What scores do you want them to become? > > I agree with these scores. I agree it doesn't matter if i use > Scandinavian, British or American scoring. > > The question is: Should I use Neuberg on the first session to make the > tops equivalent before adding the matchpoints for the final ranking > list. Since a single session is incomplete I use Neuberg. Since the > total event is all play all I use raw score. > > If I score 60% in the first set and 50% in the second I'm about 6 or 8 > matchpoints better off than if I did this the other way round. These > matchpoints are "free". They are the ones I'm trying to get rid of. I wonder if the answer is: You never use Neuberg (or Ascherman) on a session, not even on a round. You always use Neuberg (or Ascherman) on each individual board so that all board scores will refer to the same normalized number of tables. Then there will be no "free" match points. Regards Sven From peqkliltu at rowletts.com Thu Feb 17 23:53:18 2005 From: peqkliltu at rowletts.com (Tameka Rowell) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:55:31 2005 Subject: [blml] Never worry about Erectile Dysfuntion again! Message-ID: <1022982514.9995.11.camel@dell_ss3.pdx.osdl.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050217/52143f91/attachment.html From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Feb 17 23:55:34 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:55:35 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <200502151541.j1FFfgf1010408@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502151541.j1FFfgf1010408@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421520E6.3020307@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au > (1) In the auction 1NT - (Pass) - 2D, a bunny alerted her own transfer > to hearts (trying to be helpful) because her partner had forgotten to > alert. [comedy of errors snipped] The real problem here was that everyone was applying the wrong law. The self-alert violates L73B1, and all the TD or AC has to do is determine what would have happened without the violation. (Well, OK, that won't be easy in practice.) It would be normal to rule opener is "likely" to forget the transfer or that it is not "at all probable" for opener to forget, but it is also legal to rule that it is not "likely" but is "at all probable" for opener to forget. The latter seems a narrow target, which the AC hit by a different route. If L12C3 were enabled, the AC could assign a specific probability that opener would forget. From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Fri Feb 18 00:01:11 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Fri Feb 18 00:01:12 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: <200502151558.j1FFwgmh012008@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502151558.j1FFwgmh012008@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <42152237.8080704@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au > The De Wael School has as one of its principles the philosophy that > explaining a player's cards is a priority. Can you really have misunderstood Herman so thoroughly? Or have I? Nothing Herman has written suggests to me anything like what Richard writes above. As I understand it, the dWS is advice to players when they are not sure of their agreements or when there may be insufficient evidence to prove a particular agreement. It has nothing to do with disclosing the cards one holds. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 00:23:28 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 18 00:22:57 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <08B35EE5-8031-11D9-A1E9-0030656F6826@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Ed Reppert wrote: >No, not illegal. But it is not a split score, either. It is not a score >adjustment at all. > >I perceive amongst at least some players and club level TDs the >impression that one can use a PP to "adjust the score" even when Law 12 >doesn't allow a score adjustment. IMO this is an incorrect and >dangerous mindset. You give PPs for procedural violations, not to >"restore equity" or adjust the score on a board. Richard Hills writes: It seems to me that this issue is a clash of philosophies. One philosophical school, to which an Aussie AC belonged (and to which Edgar Kaplan allegedly belonged), is that one should first determine what "equity" demands, then use the discretion granted to TDs and ACs by various Laws to achieve that predetermined "equity". The other philosophical school, to which Ed seems to belong (and to which I belong), is that one should feed the facts into the black box of the Laws, turn the handle, and apply whatever adjusted score pops out. The difference in practice between those schools is that, as TD, I would apply fixed and uniform PPs for particular types of offences, but the Aussie AC supported a floating and variable PP for a particular type of offence depending upon its preconceived notion of "equity" for a particular board. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 18 00:39:00 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 18 00:40:15 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000001c5151b$a6cf9750$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000001c5151b$a6cf9750$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> On Behalf Of David Stevenson >> >............... >> >I thought I knew what "factoring" is but maybe I have misunderstood? >> >> If you have seven scores from eight tables then you multiply the >> scores by 7/6. That's factoring, and means that it is easier to get a >> top from seven scores than from eight. > >So I thought, except that I would use the factor 8/7, not 7/6 in this case, >and I would calculate all scores (before and after correction) relative to >average instead of relative to absolute bottom. > >That 8/7 is slightly less than 7/6 is the statistical consequence of the >fact that it is easier to obtain a top with fewer scores. Actually this is >the principle behind Ascherman and Neuberg, a principle I find most fair in >all cases where a score must be adapted to a different field size. It is not a question of fairness, or what is best: you asked what factoring *is*. Since a top with eight scores is 14 [7 Am] and with seven scores is 14 [6 Am] then factoring means multiplying by 7/6. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Fri Feb 18 00:45:14 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Fri Feb 18 00:45:16 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? Message-ID: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> SW> The third call was a tempo situation: 2D ..P P x, and now the 2D bidder SW> called the TD. The TD gave The ACBL All-Purpose Ruling, and even when SW> requested to do so, he refused to rule whether the pass was in tempo or SW> not. Anne Jones anne.jones1 at ntlworld.com >The TD can ascertain the facts after the play of the hand. I am surprised by this. In an earlier discussion, many TDs opined that they would rather be called sooner than later so they could quiz the players before memories faded and before the result on the board was known. Are you saying the TD should not do this? If not, is there any point at all in calling the TD before the alleged "UI user's" hand is revealed? In any case, how should the TD advise the players so they can continue the board, knowing their rights? >Did you want the TD to look at the cards and shake his head gravely and >say "I rule that you are unlikely to have passed in tempo on that >hand". UI from the TD is something players can do without!! I agree with the last sentiment, but what hand can the alleged slow passer possibly have that would change your ruling? A ten second pause is required, and that's an eternity in bridge terms. I agree that there is a problem when no skip bid is involved or in jurisdictions where no mandatory pause applies. What is the TD supposed to do in these situations, where a look at the alleged hesitator's hand might be important evidence? From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 18 00:45:26 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 18 00:46:53 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <00a501c5138d$fe223ba0$47063dd4@c6l8v1> Message-ID: <1DSSsXKWySFCFw8D@blakjak.demon.co.uk> rjh wrote >Ben Schelen: > >>There was a problem with the boards, but, in The >>Netherlands a director has learned that a score on >>the board is needed. So the board must be finished >>and the start of the following round is postponed. > >[snip] > >Richard Hills: > >If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the >cancellation of a partially completed board, then >Ben is right. Well, we have no such regulation in England. We just don't do it. >Otherwise, there is no "must" about postponement of >the following round. The Laws definitely give a TD >the power to cancel a partially completed board due >to unduly slow play caused by the two offending >sides, consequently awarding Ave- to each of them. > >References: Law 90B2, Law 82B1, Law 12A2, Law 12C1 Oh, great, now to learn. L90B2: no, sorry, that gives the right to penalise, not to stop the board part way through. L82B1: no, sorry, only allows an adjusted score as permitted by the Laws, does not give the TD the right to stop the board part way through. L12A2: just irrelevant! Gives no right to stop the board part way through. L12C1: just irrelevant! Gives no right to stop the board part way through. Sorry, RJH, you may not stop a board part way through since there is no Law permitting you to do so. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 00:54:56 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 18 00:54:29 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: <42152237.8080704@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Richard Hills asserted: [snip] >>>>The De Wael School has as one of its principles the >>>>philosophy that explaining a player's cards is a priority. [snip] Steve Willner asserted: >>>Can you really have misunderstood Herman so thoroughly? Or >>>have I? Nothing Herman has written suggests to me anything >>>like what Richard writes above. >>> >>>As I understand it, the dWS is advice to players when they >>>are not sure of their agreements or when there may be >>>insufficient evidence to prove a particular agreement. It >>>has nothing to do with disclosing the cards one holds. In the old thread "asked Jesting Pilate" Richard Hills wrote: >>"What is Truth?" was an important question 2000 years ago. [snip] >>It seems to me that the logical basis of the footnote to Law >>75 is that: >> >>* If a partnership has agreed that it is Truth that a >> particular call has a defined partnership meaning of X; >>* If one or both members of the partnership have temporarily >> forgotten the Truth, and assume that the call has a >> meaning of Y; >>* Then, according to the footnote to Law 75, the Truth that >> must be disclosed is still X. Herman De Wael replied: >What I find abhorring in all these cases is not that you seem >to be saying that X is True, but that you are also saying >that Y is false. > >While all the time Y is actually what partner has. [snip] >What is Truth, indeed? Richard's rhetorical question: "Nothing Herman has written suggests" that describing cards is a priority? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 18 01:19:11 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 18 01:20:56 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Steve Willner wrote >I agree that there is a problem when no skip bid is involved or in >jurisdictions where no mandatory pause applies. What is the TD >supposed to do in these situations, where a look at the alleged >hesitator's hand might be important evidence? You are not suggesting a TD should look at a player's hand before the hand is completed, surely? That is the greatest no-no of them all. There is enough UI floating around from the players without TDs adding to it. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 01:27:54 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 18 01:27:23 2005 Subject: [blml] Re: factoring In-Reply-To: <4214EBB4.40009@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Steve Willner: >I have never seen a demonstration that any specific method of factoring >(broad sense) is mathematically sound. Richard Hills: Actually, it has been mathematically determined that *all* methods of factoring are imperfect, with anomalies possible in *all* alternatives. This was a serendipitous result of investigation of the decennial interstate reapportionment of American congressional districts. The size of the USA House of Representatives is fixed at 435 members. So, after each decennial census, some states gain congressional districts and some lose congressional districts. Since congressional districts may not cross state lines, a factoring formula is needed to resolve fractional entitlements each state has to a congressional district. No matter what factoring formula is in place, it is possible for a state to increase its percentage of the overall American population, but then lose a congressional district. On the other hand, because the Australian House of Representatives has no fixed size, factoring is not required, as each mainland State's fractional entitlements are merely rounded to the nearest whole number. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 01:52:55 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 18 01:52:23 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <421520E6.3020307@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Steve Willner: >The real problem here was that everyone was applying >the wrong law. The self-alert violates L73B1, and all >the TD or AC has to do is determine what would have >happened without the violation. (Well, OK, that won't >be easy in practice.) It would be normal to rule >opener is "likely" to forget the transfer or that it >is not "at all probable" for opener to forget, but it >is also legal to rule that it is not "likely" but is >"at all probable" for opener to forget. The latter >seems a narrow target, which the AC hit by a different >route. If L12C3 were enabled, the AC could assign a >specific probability that opener would forget. Richard Hills: In my opinion, Steve is leapfrogging Law 16 in his haste to reach Law 12C2. In my opinion, a TD or AC uses Law 16 to determine whether a player forgetting their partnership agreement (in the absence of unauthorised information) is a logical alternative. In my opinion, it is only *after* such an initial Law 16 assessment that the TD and AC would *then* proceed to Law 12C2. I agree with the actual Aussie CTD that Steve's proposed ruling - not "likely" but "at all probable" Heisenberg forgetting - is an illegal-in-Australia Reveley ruling. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 02:12:57 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 18 02:12:29 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000101c5153d$8718e070$6900a8c0@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Sven Pran: >None of these laws gives the Director the power to terminate >a board in play. > >This is not a matter of regulation. > >You had better look at Law 8B, End of Round: > >"In general a round ends when the Director gives the signal >for the start of the following round; but if any table has >not completed play by that time, the round continues for that >table until there has been a progression of players." > >A board in play shall never be terminated prematurely by the >Director. Richard Hills: In my opinion, Law 8B does not justify Sven's dogmatism. If a director has cancelled a board that was in play, then that board is no longer in play, so that table is now defined as having completed play. Under Law 81C4 the TD has the power to "insure the orderly progress of the game." The Law 90B2 infraction (and error in procedure) "unduly slow play" disrupts that orderly progress. Under Law 82B1 the director may rectify an error of procedure by awarding an "adjusted score as permitted by these Laws". Law 12A2 permits the award of an artificial adjusted score if "no rectification can be permitted that would permit normal play of the board", such as the TD deciding that permitting the unduly slow players to finish a board is impermissible because then the round would not end before Christmas. What's the problem? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From siegmund at mosquitonet.com Fri Feb 18 02:23:54 2005 From: siegmund at mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Fri Feb 18 02:21:23 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <1DSSsXKWySFCFw8D@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, David Stevenson wrote: > >If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the > >cancellation of a partially completed board, then > >Ben is right. > > Well, we have no such regulation in England. We just don't do it. I also "just don't do it." It doesn't feel right, and it's been beaten into my head mantralike on BLML for 7+ years now, that we never cancel obtained results or interrupt boards in progress. But I don't believe there is a law telling me not to. > >References: Law 90B2, Law 82B1, Law 12A2, Law 12C1 >[DWS points out none of these authorize interrupting a board] > Sorry, RJH, you may not stop a board part way through since there is > no Law permitting you to do so. I don't think that is right. L8B says a round continues until the players move if they have not completed play; it doesn't say whether the players can be ordered to move despite not completing play. In fact, L5B says players move in accordance with director's instructions, period. "Each player is responsible for moving when and as directed." It doesn't say "unless he's in the middle of the hand." L81C4 says I must insure the orderly progress of the game. I am, of course, bound by L81B2 to obey the laws and supplementary regulations. But unless DWS or someone else can produce a law that says "the director may not interrupt a board in progress", it is my L5/81-authorized right to tell them to get up and move whenever I think that they should. As a matter of both training and common sense, I don't generally exercise that power. But *if*, under some exotic circumstance, I wanted to, I could. And after they have been moved, I am now free to apply L12A2, or even L6D3 if this happened the first time the board was played. GRB From john at asimere.com Fri Feb 18 05:30:30 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Fri Feb 18 05:32:21 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000101c5153d$8718e070$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000101c5153d$8718e070$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article <000101c5153d$8718e070$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >> On Behalf Of richard.hills@immi.gov.au >............. >> If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the >> cancellation of a partially completed board, then >> Ben is right. >> >> Otherwise, there is no "must" about postponement of >> the following round. The Laws definitely give a TD >> the power to cancel a partially completed board due >> to unduly slow play caused by the two offending >> sides, consequently awarding Ave- to each of them. >> >> References: Law 90B2, Law 82B1, Law 12A2, Law 12C1 > >None of these laws gives the Director the power to terminate a board in >play. > >This is not a matter of regulation. > >You had better look at Law 8B End of Round: >In general a round ends when the Director gives the signal for the start of >the following round; but if any table has not completed play by that time, >the round continues for that table until there has been a progression of >players. > >A board in play shall never be terminated prematurely by the Director. I think we might do it under the basis of "keeping good order" 81C4. > >Sven > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From svenpran at online.no Fri Feb 18 07:05:04 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Fri Feb 18 07:05:15 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5157f$ca2fb040$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of David Stevenson > >> If you have seven scores from eight tables then you multiply the > >> scores by 7/6. That's factoring, and means that it is easier to get a > >> top from seven scores than from eight. > > > >So I thought, except that I would use the factor 8/7, not 7/6 in this > case, > >and I would calculate all scores (before and after correction) relative > to > >average instead of relative to absolute bottom. > > > >That 8/7 is slightly less than 7/6 is the statistical consequence of the > >fact that it is easier to obtain a top with fewer scores. Actually this > is > >the principle behind Ascherman and Neuberg, a principle I find most fair > in > >all cases where a score must be adapted to a different field size. > > It is not a question of fairness, or what is best: you asked what > factoring *is*. Since a top with eight scores is 14 [7 Am] and with > seven scores is 14 [6 Am] then factoring means multiplying by 7/6. Oh no, I didn't dispute what factoring is, I just recognized the similarity with Neuberg and commented that apparently the only difference from using Neuberg/Ascherman was the actual factor applied. Regards Sven From erifwjbdlifb at cgocable.com Fri Feb 18 07:06:14 2005 From: erifwjbdlifb at cgocable.com (Milagros Bradshaw) Date: Fri Feb 18 07:08:30 2005 Subject: [blml] =?iso-8859-1?q?X=E2=F1=40x_Here?= Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050218/eff1408c/attachment.gif From svenpran at online.no Fri Feb 18 07:17:04 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Fri Feb 18 07:17:14 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c51581$773195f0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of richard.hills@immi.gov.au > Sven Pran: > > >None of these laws gives the Director the power to terminate > >a board in play. > > > >This is not a matter of regulation. > > > >You had better look at Law 8B, End of Round: > > > >"In general a round ends when the Director gives the signal > >for the start of the following round; but if any table has > >not completed play by that time, the round continues for that > >table until there has been a progression of players." > > > >A board in play shall never be terminated prematurely by the > >Director. > > Richard Hills: > > In my opinion, Law 8B does not justify Sven's dogmatism. If > a director has cancelled a board that was in play, then that > board is no longer in play, so that table is now defined as > having completed play. > > Under Law 81C4 the TD has the power to "insure the orderly > progress of the game." The Law 90B2 infraction (and error in > procedure) "unduly slow play" disrupts that orderly progress. > Under Law 82B1 the director may rectify an error of procedure > by awarding an "adjusted score as permitted by these Laws". > > Law 12A2 permits the award of an artificial adjusted score if > "no rectification can be permitted that would permit normal > play of the board", such as the TD deciding that permitting > the unduly slow players to finish a board is impermissible > because then the round would not end before Christmas. > > What's the problem? The "problem" is that the Director has the power to penalize for slow play, but this does not extend his power to prematurely terminating a board that is in play so long as it can be finished "in a normal way" although overdue. If you want to be technical the Director may disqualify a contestant that obstructs the progress of an event so severely that they simply cannot be allowed to continue and then the board they had in play can no longer be completed "in a normal way". So I do not fear a situation where the round would last until Christmas. Sven From svenpran at online.no Fri Feb 18 07:33:38 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Fri Feb 18 07:33:49 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c51583$c8027330$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Gordon Bower ................. > L8B says a round continues until the players move if they have not > completed play; it doesn't say whether the players can be ordered to move > despite not completing play. > > In fact, L5B says players move in accordance with director's instructions, > period. "Each player is responsible for moving when and as directed." It > doesn't say "unless he's in the middle of the hand." > > L81C4 says I must insure the orderly progress of the game. > > I am, of course, bound by L81B2 to obey the laws and supplementary > regulations. > > But unless DWS or someone else can produce a law that says "the director > may not interrupt a board in progress", it is my L5/81-authorized right to > tell them to get up and move whenever I think that they should. Let me quote from the "commentaries" (EBL 1992) 8.2: Laws 8B and 8C deal with the question on when the round ends. The general condition is that the round ends when the Director calls the move, but obviously not for any table that is still struggling with a hand - for that table the round ends when the agreed score of the last board of the round is entered on the score slip. (Or if the score is found not to have been entered, at the time when correct procedure required this to be done). 8.4: If the table has not started the last board of the round the Director is recommended to award an artificial score of 50% to both pairs (Laws 12C1 and 81C4). With only one side at fault the award would be 60%-40%, if this is known with certainty. > As a matter of both training and common sense, I don't generally exercise > that power. But *if*, under some exotic circumstance, I wanted to, I > could. And after they have been moved, I am now free to apply L12A2, or > even L6D3 if this happened the first time the board was played. I would say that terminating a board prematurely is an activity requiring specific power in the laws; the Director cannot claim to have such power from the general laws empowering him to maintain orderly progression etc. when the laws include directions for handling slow play without specifying such powers. Sven From roger-eymard at wanadoo.fr Thu Feb 17 22:44:04 2005 From: roger-eymard at wanadoo.fr (Roger Eymard) Date: Fri Feb 18 09:13:46 2005 Subject: [blml] Re: factoring References: <200502171757.j1HHvDns002699@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <4214EBB4.40009@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <001701c51539$ce525ab0$6400a8c0@supersuperbe> Hi BLMLrs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Willner" To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:08 PM Subject: [blml] Re: factoring >> From: David Stevenson >> If you have seven scores from eight tables then you multiply the >> scores by 7/6. That's factoring, and means that it is easier to get a >> top from seven scores than from eight. > > 'Factoring' is a word that has a couple of related but slightly > different meanings. As a broad term, it means the process of > recomputing scores to compare boards with differing tops or contestants > who have played different numbers of boards. 'Factoring' is also used > in a narrow sense for the specific computation of simply multiplying by > an appropriate ratio, as David says above. Usually it is clear in > context which meaning is intended. The Neuberg formula is an example of > factoring in the broad sense but not the narrow one. > > I'm afraid I created the confusion by using 'factoring' in its broad > sense in private email, where I expected it to be understood. However, > when the message was excerpted (with my permission) to BLML, the word > might have come across as meaning the narrow sense only. > > From: "Grattan Endicott" > > I would have thought it fair enough in the shorter field to add > > a notional score in the median position. > > This would be another example of "factoring" in the broad sense but not > the narrow one, though I have never seen this method used in practice. > The problem is that it separates scores in the middle more than seems > desirable: a score just above the median gains a whole matchpoint, while > a score just below gains nothing at all. Both Neuberg and factoring > (narrow sense) "stretch" the entire range of scores rather than putting > a "splice" in the middle. > > I have never seen a demonstration that any specific method of factoring > (broad sense) is mathematically sound. On the whole, I think Neuberg is > the best of what's available, but in the absence of agreement on what > the proper criteria are, it is to be expected that there will be > disagreement. (What is the name of the "somebody's paradox" that says > the best estimate of e.g. future batting performance is not the player's > actual batting average but rather something that also takes into account > the average of all other players? I suspect something along these lines > could give a factoring formula with a mathematical basis, but I bet it > wouldn't differ from Neuberg by very much.) > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > Neuberg's formula is the result of factoring in the narrow sense. It can be demonstrated on the lines of the following illustration : Let us assume that there are 12 scores on the normal score sheets. These scores are assigned MP notations within the scale 0 to 22. Let us assume that a fouled board leads to 4 results, which are assigned MP notations within the scale 0 to 6. The conversion from the scale 0 to 6 to the scale 0 to 22 is done by assuming that we can build a "normal" score sheet with 12 results by putting on that sheet 3 times the 4 scores in object, and then computing the notations within the scale 0 to 22. We obtain exactly what is achieved by Neuberg's formula : X + 1 = (N/n)(x + 1) The general proof is : If, inside a group of n results, a score has been obtained b times, with c better scores, that score obtains a notation in MP of : x = 2(n - 1) - 2c - (b - 1), thus 2c - b = 2n - 1 - x If we repeat that group N/n times, to obtain N results, there are bN/n identical scores, and cN/n better scores, and the notation becomes : X = 2(N - 1) - (N/n)2c - [(N/n)b - 1] that is : 2c - b = (n/N)(2N - 1 - X) thus 2n - 1 - x = (n/N)(2N - 1 - X) and X + 1 = (N/n)(x + 1) In the Neuberg's formula, the factoring lies in the computation of the number of identical scores and the number of higher scores, which are deemed to be proportional to the total number of scores. There is no problem whith that, as long as the small group of results arises from a group of players equivalent to whole group of players. In the case of 8 results on each score sheet obtained by the players in one session, and only 7 results by the same players in another session, it seems obvious that Neuberg's formula is adequate. I'm not so sure, in the case of a small number of results arising because of a fouled board, when the normal notation of a board relates to a large number of scores arising from many parallel Mitchells playing the same boards... :-( Remark : The same reasoning leads, for the "IMP's across the field", aka "Calcutta" scoring of a pair event (Hallen, p. 596), to an even simpler result : X = x(N/n) or, if we divide X by (N-1) and x by (n-1) to get a result comparable to a team of 4 match result for the number of boards played : Y = y[N(n - 1) / n(N - 1)] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050217/686ace74/attachment-0001.html From hermandw at hdw.be Fri Feb 18 09:31:01 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Fri Feb 18 09:30:12 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4215A7C5.4080000@hdw.be> richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > > > > Richard Hills asserted: > > [snip] > > >>>>>The De Wael School has as one of its principles the >>>>>philosophy that explaining a player's cards is a priority. > > > [snip] > > Steve Willner asserted: > > >>>>Can you really have misunderstood Herman so thoroughly? Or >>>>have I? Nothing Herman has written suggests to me anything >>>>like what Richard writes above. >>>> >>>>As I understand it, the dWS is advice to players when they >>>>are not sure of their agreements or when there may be >>>>insufficient evidence to prove a particular agreement. It >>>>has nothing to do with disclosing the cards one holds. > > > > Herman De Wael replied: > > >>What I find abhorring in all these cases is not that you seem >>to be saying that X is True, but that you are also saying >>that Y is false. >> >>While all the time Y is actually what partner has. > > > > Richard's rhetorical question: > > "Nothing Herman has written suggests" that describing cards > is a priority? > > Well, of course you can all start turning my words around and around. Yes, I may have suggested that describing what is in the hand is a good idea. If only for the reason that if you know what is in partner's hand, it may well be a good idea to tell your opponents as well. But certainly this is not a priority. The priority, in the cases such as we are discussing, is explaining partner's bidding in such a way as not to reveal to him that he has misinterpreted your bid. Of course that corresponds to telling opponents what partner's intentions were with his bid (rather than the actual partnership meaning), and presumably this corresponds to his hand. But don't get the priorities wrong, please. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 From ogan at fas.harvard.edu Fri Feb 18 09:54:36 2005 From: ogan at fas.harvard.edu (Alex Ogan) Date: Fri Feb 18 09:54:49 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502180854.j1I8sai1007840@us17.unix.fas.harvard.edu> Please forgive any Bridge Laws cluelessness on my part -- I'm certainly a rank novice to the topic in the context of this mailing list -- but I want to (I think) clarify Steve's question: North deals and the auction is: 2D - P - P. Immediately after passing (or before, it doesn't seem relevant), South calls for a director and asserts that East's hesitation before passing was unduly long. The director arrives and gives the all-purpose ACBL ruling, suggesting that the non-offending should call him again if they think they have been damaged. Despite East/West's requests, the director refuses to rule on whether a break in tempo has occurred. Is this acceptable? Should West have to choose his call without a ruling on whether a BIT has occurred having been made? -- Alex Ogan ogan@fas.harvard.edu From svenpran at online.no Fri Feb 18 10:07:30 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Fri Feb 18 10:07:41 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <200502180854.j1I8sai1007840@us17.unix.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000a01c51599$4640f950$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Alex Ogan > Please forgive any Bridge Laws cluelessness on my part -- I'm certainly a > rank novice to the topic in the context of this mailing list -- but I want > to (I think) clarify Steve's question: > > North deals and the auction is: 2D - P - P. Immediately after passing (or > before, it doesn't seem relevant), South calls for a director and asserts > that East's hesitation before passing was unduly long. > > The director arrives and gives the all-purpose ACBL ruling, suggesting > that > the non-offending should call him again if they think they have been > damaged. Despite East/West's requests, the director refuses to rule on > whether a break in tempo has occurred. Is this acceptable? Should West > have to choose his call without a ruling on whether a BIT has occurred > having been made? The moment the Director tells the players to call him again if they think they have been damaged he has in my opinion already given a de facto ruling that there was a break in tempo. (Otherwise he would have no reason to say "call me again if you think you have been damaged".) And I think that he must make up his mind at this time, establish the facts and give a ruling on whether or not there was a break in tempo. He will certainly not be in any better position to make such a ruling at any later time. Regards Sven From siegmund at mosquitonet.com Fri Feb 18 10:42:11 2005 From: siegmund at mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Fri Feb 18 10:39:42 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000201c51583$c8027330$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Sven Pran wrote: > 8.4: If the table has not started the last board of the round the Director > is recommended to award an artificial score of 50% to both pairs (Laws 12C1 > and 81C4). With only one side at fault the award would be 60%-40%, if this > is known with certainty. > > I would say that terminating a board prematurely is an activity requiring > specific power in the laws; the Director cannot claim to have such power > from the general laws empowering him to maintain orderly progression etc. > when the laws include directions for handling slow play without specifying > such powers. That might be a convincing argument. The problem is that the laws DO NOT INCLUDE any directions about how to handle slow play. They simply empower the director to maintain progress, including to arrange sometimes-nonstand movements and to assign scores when results can't be obtained. Item 8.4 may be useful guidance for European TDs, I don't know. But it is not a law. Not even a regulation. It is a recommendation - and a recommendation contrary to the prevailing practice in many parts of the world. (usual in my area is assigning a lateplay unless one of the pairs involves already has a lateplay with someone else, in which case an ArtAS comes out, and 50/50 is very rare; 40/40 is most common, with the occasional 50/40 and 60/40.) GRB From tjyovaf at fullcirclefitness.com Fri Feb 18 11:21:05 2005 From: tjyovaf at fullcirclefitness.com (Alden Powers) Date: Fri Feb 18 11:27:17 2005 Subject: [blml] don`t be an asshole Keisha Message-ID: <271212032200.69951.casey@outbacklinux.com> Offshore pharm wish you all best in New Year! We will offer you best prices on any meds you need Viagra Cialis Valium Xanax and much more.. Please click below and check out our offer. http://efflorescent.iuhsdisssdf.com/?wid=100069 maori sp downturn qv codon lg lockout kx conceal kx exciton bn suspect nlt rusty mo axiom ey colombia ipx zip ro octagonal gix http://constitution.iuhsdisssdf.com/nomore.html From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 18 13:59:03 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 18 14:00:33 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <200502180854.j1I8sai1007840@us17.unix.fas.harvard.edu> References: <200502180854.j1I8sai1007840@us17.unix.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <$dywrfAXaeFCFw95@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Alex Ogan wrote >Please forgive any Bridge Laws cluelessness on my part -- I'm certainly a >rank novice to the topic in the context of this mailing list -- but I want >to (I think) clarify Steve's question: > >North deals and the auction is: 2D - P - P. Immediately after passing (or >before, it doesn't seem relevant), South calls for a director and asserts >that East's hesitation before passing was unduly long. > >The director arrives and gives the all-purpose ACBL ruling, suggesting that >the non-offending should call him again if they think they have been >damaged. Despite East/West's requests, the director refuses to rule on >whether a break in tempo has occurred. Is this acceptable? Should West >have to choose his call without a ruling on whether a BIT has occurred >having been made? I do not think it is acceptable. Mind you, I don't always rule on whether there was a BIT, but that is in situations where it is not going to make a difference now and where the players have not requested me to decide then. If they said tome that they wanted to know then I would decide then. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 18 14:01:47 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 18 14:03:15 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <000a01c51599$4640f950$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <200502180854.j1I8sai1007840@us17.unix.fas.harvard.edu> <000a01c51599$4640f950$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> On Behalf Of Alex Ogan >> Please forgive any Bridge Laws cluelessness on my part -- I'm certainly a >> rank novice to the topic in the context of this mailing list -- but I want >> to (I think) clarify Steve's question: >> >> North deals and the auction is: 2D - P - P. Immediately after passing (or >> before, it doesn't seem relevant), South calls for a director and asserts >> that East's hesitation before passing was unduly long. >> >> The director arrives and gives the all-purpose ACBL ruling, suggesting >> that >> the non-offending should call him again if they think they have been >> damaged. Despite East/West's requests, the director refuses to rule on >> whether a break in tempo has occurred. Is this acceptable? Should West >> have to choose his call without a ruling on whether a BIT has occurred >> having been made? > >The moment the Director tells the players to call him again if they think >they have been damaged he has in my opinion already given a de facto ruling >that there was a break in tempo. (Otherwise he would have no reason to say >"call me again if you think you have been damaged".) No, that's ridiculous. If he has decided there was a BIT he would say so: to presume something from him not saying so cannot be right. >And I think that he must make up his mind at this time, establish the facts >and give a ruling on whether or not there was a break in tempo. He will >certainly not be in any better position to make such a ruling at any later >time. I disagree with this, as well. Rulings are often better after consideration and consultation. He won't be able to get the facts any better late, true. of course you discover the facts at the time. But going away to consider and consult means your final decision will be better, so to say he "must make up his mind at this time" will lead to poorer rulings in some cases, which is undesirable. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 18 14:04:00 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 18 14:05:14 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: <000001c5157f$ca2fb040$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000001c5157f$ca2fb040$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> On Behalf Of David Stevenson >> >> If you have seven scores from eight tables then you multiply the >> >> scores by 7/6. That's factoring, and means that it is easier to get a >> >> top from seven scores than from eight. >> > >> >So I thought, except that I would use the factor 8/7, not 7/6 in this >> case, >> >and I would calculate all scores (before and after correction) relative >> to >> >average instead of relative to absolute bottom. >> > >> >That 8/7 is slightly less than 7/6 is the statistical consequence of the >> >fact that it is easier to obtain a top with fewer scores. Actually this >> is >> >the principle behind Ascherman and Neuberg, a principle I find most fair >> in >> >all cases where a score must be adapted to a different field size. >> >> It is not a question of fairness, or what is best: you asked what >> factoring *is*. Since a top with eight scores is 14 [7 Am] and with >> seven scores is 14 [6 Am] then factoring means multiplying by 7/6. > >Oh no, I didn't dispute what factoring is, I just recognized the similarity >with Neuberg and commented that apparently the only difference from using >Neuberg/Ascherman was the actual factor applied. The point about all this is that factoring was used extensively and probably still is in some places by people who score by hand. It is not as accurate or fair as Neuberg, and probably several other methods, but it is simple, within the ability of a scorer with a paper and pencil, and not so unfair as to make much difference. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From eziuviodiiw at adelphia.net Fri Feb 18 15:23:54 2005 From: eziuviodiiw at adelphia.net (Joseph Mock) Date: Fri Feb 18 15:31:12 2005 Subject: [blml] Hey tehre Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050218/16e0cdce/attachment.gif From mlipenza at hotmail.com Sat Feb 19 00:14:21 2005 From: mlipenza at hotmail.com (Micheal Ipenza) Date: Fri Feb 18 16:10:09 2005 Subject: [blml] (no subject) Message-ID: Dear PRESIDENT/CEO, My name is Mr. Micheal Ipenza, I am an auditor in Standard Bank of South Africa . I am contacting you of a business transfer, of a huge sum of money from a deceased account. Though I know that a transaction of this magnitude will make any one apprehensive and worried, but I am assuring you that everything has been well taken care off, and all will be well at the end of the day. I decided to contact you due to the urgency of this transaction. To ease your apprehension, I got your contact from the British chambers of commerce and industry, foreign trade division. An account was open by a foreigner named Gerald Welsh who died in an air crash along with his wife on the 31st October 1999 in an Egyptian airline 990 with other passengers on board. PROPOSITION; Since his death, none of his next-of-kin are alive to make claims for this money as his heir, because they all died in the same accident(May his soul rest in peace). We cannot release the fund from his account unless someone applies for claim as the next-of-kin to the deceased as indicated in our banking guidelines. Upon this discovery, I now seek your permission to have you stand as a next of kin to the deceased, as all documentations will be carefully worked out by a lawyer for the funds Twenty- five million United States dollars (US$25,000,000.00) in a domiciliary account to be released in your favour as the beneficiary's next of kin. Because after six years the money will be called back to the bank treasury as unclaimed bills and the money shared amongst the directors of the bank. so it is on this note i decided to seek for whom his name shall be used as the next of kin/beneficiary to this funds rather than allow the bank directors to share this money amongst themselves at the end of the year. It may interest you to know that we have secured from the probate an order of mandamus to locate any of the deceased beneficiaries. Please acknowledge receipt of this message in acceptance of our mutual business endeavor by furnishing me with the following information if you are interested. 1.A Beneficiary name;. In order for me to prepare the PAPER WORK for transfer of the funds in your name. And also I want you to come down to South Africa to open a non-resident account for onward transfer to your overseas account, and for us to see face to face. 2. Details, particulars of your contact address. 3. Direct Telephone and fax numbers;. For our personal contact and for the confidentiality of this transactions. I shall be compensating you with 25% of the total sum on final conclusion of this project for your assistance, as I have also thought of doling out 5% to charity organisation from your locality based on your recommendation another 5% for the services of the lawyer while the balance 65% shall be for me for investment purposes in your country as I cannot bring back this cash to my country. If this proposal is acceptable by you, please endeavor to contact me immediately. Do not take undue advantage of the trust I have bestowed in you by informing you of this transaction from my bank as I will advise you to kindly desist from responding at all if you do NOT intend to render any assistance. Endeavor to respond via this my confidential direct e-mail address michealipenza1@netscape.net. Thanks and best regards, Mr. Micheal Ipenza. From svenpran at online.no Fri Feb 18 16:35:16 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Fri Feb 18 16:35:26 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c515cf$71fda8f0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Gordon Bower > On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Sven Pran wrote: > > > 8.4: If the table has not started the last board of > > the round the Director is recommended to award an > > artificialscore of 50% to both pairs (Laws 12C1 > > and 81C4). With only one side at fault the award > > would be 60%-40%, if this is known with certainty. > > > > I would say that terminating a board prematurely is > > an activity requiring specific power in the laws; > > the Director cannot claim to have such power from > > the general laws empowering him to maintain orderly > > progression etc. when the laws include directions > > for handling slow play without specifying such powers. > > That might be a convincing argument. The problem is that the laws DO NOT > INCLUDE any directions about how to handle slow play. Oh yes, they do. See law 90B2! > They simply empower the director to maintain progress, > including to arrange sometimes-nonstand > movements and to assign scores when results can't be obtained. > > Item 8.4 may be useful guidance for European TDs, I don't know. But it is > not a law. Not even a regulation. It is a recommendation - and a > recommendation contrary to the prevailing practice in many parts of the > world. (usual in my area is assigning a lateplay unless one of the pairs > involves already has a lateplay with someone else, in which case an ArtAS > comes out, and 50/50 is very rare; 40/40 is most common, with the > occasional 50/40 and 60/40.) That is true, but does Zonal organizations; national authorities and Directors just ignore what is issued officially in the name of EBL (probably) because it "is not invented here"? Sven From svenpran at online.no Fri Feb 18 16:38:13 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Fri Feb 18 16:38:24 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c515cf$dbbb83c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of David Stevenson .......... > >Oh no, I didn't dispute what factoring is, I just > > recognized the similarity with Neuberg and commented > > that apparently the only difference from using > >Neuberg/Ascherman was the actual factor applied. > > The point about all this is that factoring was used extensively and > probably still is in some places by people who score by hand. Indeed. Once upon a time I used it myself! > It is not > as accurate or fair as Neuberg, and probably several other methods, but > it is simple, within the ability of a scorer with a paper and pencil, > and not so unfair as to make much difference. Quite true. Regards sven From svenpran at online.no Fri Feb 18 16:58:36 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Fri Feb 18 16:58:48 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c515d2$b4e32e30$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of David Stevenson > Sven Pran wrote > >> On Behalf Of Alex Ogan > >> Please forgive any Bridge Laws cluelessness on my part -- I'm certainly > a > >> rank novice to the topic in the context of this mailing list -- but I > want > >> to (I think) clarify Steve's question: > >> > >> North deals and the auction is: 2D - P - P. Immediately after passing > (or > >> before, it doesn't seem relevant), South calls for a director and > asserts > >> that East's hesitation before passing was unduly long. > >> > >> The director arrives and gives the all-purpose ACBL ruling, suggesting > >> that > >> the non-offending should call him again if they think they have been > >> damaged. Despite East/West's requests, the director refuses to rule on > >> whether a break in tempo has occurred. Is this acceptable? Should > West > >> have to choose his call without a ruling on whether a BIT has occurred > >> having been made? > > > >The moment the Director tells the players to call him again if they think > >they have been damaged he has in my opinion already given a de facto > ruling > >that there was a break in tempo. (Otherwise he would have no reason to > say > >"call me again if you think you have been damaged".) > > No, that's ridiculous. If he has decided there was a BIT he would say > so: to presume something from him not saying so cannot be right. > > >And I think that he must make up his mind at this time, establish the > facts > >and give a ruling on whether or not there was a break in tempo. He will > >certainly not be in any better position to make such a ruling at any > later > >time. > > I disagree with this, as well. Rulings are often better after > consideration and consultation. He won't be able to get the facts any > better late, true. of course you discover the facts at the time. But > going away to consider and consult means your final decision will be > better, so to say he "must make up his mind at this time" will lead to > poorer rulings in some cases, which is undesirable. I think we are in full agreement except that David doesn't accept my opinion that the Director has made an implied ruling on the existence of BIT. Let me state directly that I never leave a table without making such things clear to the players; if I do not consider a break in tempo I tell them so, if I do consider a break in tempo I tell them that and instruct them to call me again if ... etc. And finally, when ruling on possible damage I (of course) never make any such ruling without due consideration and consultation with fellow colleagues and/or competent players unless the claim is so obviously without any reason that I can make an immediate refusal. This could for instance be if NOS has received a score they could only have dreamt of with "normal" auction and play. Regards Sven From B.Schelen at IAE.NL Fri Feb 18 17:17:43 2005 From: B.Schelen at IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Fri Feb 18 17:22:28 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards References: Message-ID: <00f101c515d6$2fd80cc0$ac063dd4@c6l8v1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Bower" To: Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:42 AM Subject: RE: [blml] played 2 wrong boards > > > On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Sven Pran wrote: > > > 8.4: If the table has not started the last board of the round the Director > > is recommended to award an artificial score of 50% to both pairs (Laws 12C1 > > and 81C4). With only one side at fault the award would be 60%-40%, if this > > is known with certainty. > > > > I would say that terminating a board prematurely is an activity requiring > > specific power in the laws; the Director cannot claim to have such power > > from the general laws empowering him to maintain orderly progression etc. > > when the laws include directions for handling slow play without specifying > > such powers. > > That might be a convincing argument. The problem is that the laws DO NOT > INCLUDE any directions about how to handle slow play. They simply empower > the director to maintain progress, including to arrange sometimes-nonstand > movements and to assign scores when results can't be obtained. > > Item 8.4 may be useful guidance for European TDs, I don't know. But it is > not a law. Not even a regulation. It is a recommendation - and a > recommendation contrary to the prevailing practice in many parts of the > world. (usual in my area is assigning a lateplay unless one of the pairs > involves already has a lateplay with someone else, in which case an ArtAS > comes out, and 50/50 is very rare; 40/40 is most common, with the > occasional 50/40 and 60/40.) > > Playing against experts a player would be satisfied with 50 %, even with 40%. It is a matter of regulations: Law80F. Conditions of Contest World Bridge Championships Geneva 90. 73. Duration of rounds 73.2 If the time is exceeded, both pairs at the table will be penalized 50% of the match points available. We learned that a PP may never touch the table result and that the director reports the results of the match to the sponsering organisation. If the director has to assess ArtAS's at a club, he will never be sure that the results of the match will give a fair approach of the strength of the pairs. In case he postpones the next round, the players at the other tables will grumble at the late-players and together with a PP it will help for the future. Ben From smbtbukhamz at loanrates.com Fri Feb 18 17:58:23 2005 From: smbtbukhamz at loanrates.com (Bill Hollis) Date: Fri Feb 18 18:04:40 2005 Subject: [blml] no more tickets from photo cops Message-ID: <11D6-8A1D2080E4C59064@apple20.mhpcc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050218/036d2b65/attachment.html From siegmund at mosquitonet.com Fri Feb 18 22:30:31 2005 From: siegmund at mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Fri Feb 18 22:28:01 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, David Stevenson wrote: > The point about all this is that factoring was used extensively and > probably still is in some places by people who score by hand. It is not > as accurate or fair as Neuberg, and probably several other methods, but > it is simple, within the ability of a scorer with a paper and pencil, > and not so unfair as to make much difference. If you are going to work with fractions like 7/6 anyway you might as well go ahead and use Neuberg: multiplying by 8/7 isnt that much harder than by 7/6. You may be interested to know that the officially sanctioned method of hand-scoring in the ACBL is not to do any multiplying at all: you are simply instructed to add half a matchpoint to shift the 0-to-6 scores up to be 0.5-to-6.5. In the mid-90s, the club director's examination included handscoring a fouled board using this method. I've not heard of a change in procedure but not seen the after-1997 examination, either. (I personally do use Neuberg when I hand-score, but that's because I am one of those weird math freak types. And yes, I've dont it recently: our club did not have a computer all of last spring and early summer! I actually miss it, and up to 4 1/2 tables, the computer doesn't save much time at all. At six tables, yes, the computer is a blessing.) GRB From siegmund at mosquitonet.com Fri Feb 18 22:41:21 2005 From: siegmund at mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Fri Feb 18 22:38:52 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000601c515cf$71fda8f0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Sven Pran wrote: > > That might be a convincing argument. The problem is that the laws DO NOT > > INCLUDE any directions about how to handle slow play. > > Oh yes, they do. See law 90B2! No, they don't. L90B is a non-exhaustive list of situations where a director might choose to use his L90A powers. It makes no comment as to what other actions the director might take to rectify the situation. L90B4, for instance, says that unathorized comparison of scores is an offence that is often penalized. But it doesn't tell me to look at L16 to decide whether any boards have become unplayable as a result. My SO has a regulation to tell me what size of penalty to give. L90B6, for instance, says that fouling a board is an offence that is often penalized. It doesn't tell me how to repair a fouled board, how to score a fouled board, what size penalty to give, or anything else. Some of those things are covered in regulations, some of them are left to my own judgment. GRB From cmjrwz at terra.com.br Sat Feb 19 00:08:26 2005 From: cmjrwz at terra.com.br (Bliss) Date: Sat Feb 19 00:07:07 2005 Subject: [blml] hi 16/01/2005 Message-ID: <20050218230656.BB36B248@rhubarb.custard.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050219/14738b0c/attachment.html From HoqoRa2oelc at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 10:27:02 2005 From: HoqoRa2oelc at yahoo.com (Merrill Lorena) Date: Sat Feb 19 10:30:03 2005 Subject: [blml] FW: FW: your private invitation dE-92390q3 Message-ID: <221z7fzlsc.fsf@calle69.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050219/59ad14e5/attachment.html From otemeuohc at educal.com Sat Feb 19 14:26:40 2005 From: otemeuohc at educal.com (Amalia Blackman) Date: Sat Feb 19 14:39:30 2005 Subject: [blml] Vicodin sale Sylvester Message-ID: <227212032200.76351.casey@outbacklinux.com> Big sale on Vicodin and other drugs. You wont find better prices anywhere! Vicodin - 90 PiIls - 178$ Viagra - 100 PilIs - 209.99$ Cialis - 90 PiIls - 324$ Ambien - 120 PilIs - 249$ Xanax - 90 PiIls - 299$ and many more... Please click below and check out our offer. http://aperture.yourtabl.info/in.php?aid=44 %TEXT[2-5] %TEXT[2-5] From NHLNZOZFSTFK at coltra.com Sat Feb 19 16:57:48 2005 From: NHLNZOZFSTFK at coltra.com (Rudolph Nelson) Date: Sat Feb 19 17:07:02 2005 Subject: [blml] Oscar good news for you Message-ID: <217212032200.55051.casey@outbacklinux.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Oscar To: ovate1@msn.com ; endicottfore@yahoo.com ; Dear Homeowner, Mortgage. You have been pre-approved. You can get $243,000 for as little as $232 a month, thanks to your pre-approval. Visit us, Fill out the form, no obligation Pull cash out, or refinance.. No long forms or quastionnaires. Fill up our extremely short and simple form today and get a call back within a couple of hours. Start saving now, click that link: http://www.lendzx.info/index2.php?refid=vik lumpy uyg mumble fom synopses yku filch iex boreas vpx torr wg waco ebs bayberry st benjamin wxm acclimate uxg From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Sat Feb 19 18:33:19 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Sat Feb 19 18:34:00 2005 Subject: [blml] Re: factoring In-Reply-To: <200502181525.j1IFPfs7012960@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502181525.j1IFPfs7012960@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <4217785F.1000006@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Roger Eymard" (Please don't use attachments or send to the list other than in plain text. Other methods are hard to quote and may be impossible to read.) > In the Neuberg's formula, the factoring lies in the computation of the number > of identical scores and the number of higher scores, which are > deemed to be proportional to the total number of scores. It is the "are deemed" part that is mathematically incorrect or rather isn't the right thing to compute. What one would really like is that the probability of winning the event should be the same whether one is in the large or small group. Also, the probability of being second, third, etc. should be the same. There is no mathematical procedure (as far as I know) that will ensure all this, and indeed it may be provably impossible (though I have not seen such a proof). What one would like is that both the expectation and variance of the factored score should be the same in both groups. In straight factoring, the expectation is the same but the variance is wrong. I don't think Neuberg attempts to get either one correct, nor does Henry Bethe's suggestion. In my opinion, Neuberg is as good an overall compromise as anything else, but there is no sound mathematical justification for it. See http://www.desjardins.org/david/factor.txt for more on the mathematical argument. By the way, the mathematical term I was looking for earlier is "Stein's Paradox." There's a brief definition at http://www.cmh.edu/stats/ask/stein.asp but I couldn't find any really good articles in a web search. However, if there is a sound mathematical procedure for factoring, I suspect some sort of "Stein estimator" may be involved. From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au > Actually, it has been mathematically determined that *all* methods of > factoring are imperfect, with anomalies possible in *all* alternatives. > > This was a serendipitous result of investigation of the decennial > interstate reapportionment of American congressional districts. The first statement may be true (though as noted above I have not seen the proof), but the second does not support it. The problem with American reapportionment has to do with rounding off to integers; it would vanish if states could have fractional representatives in Congress. For the factoring problem, we are happy with fractional matchpoint scores. The problem is that there is no perfect basis for what fractions to assign. From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Sat Feb 19 18:46:55 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Sat Feb 19 18:47:07 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <200502181510.j1IFAG60011452@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502181510.j1IFAG60011452@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <42177B8F.7020605@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au > In my opinion, Steve is leapfrogging Law 16 in his > haste to reach Law 12C2. I'm not "leapfrogging" it. I'm saying explicitly that it is the wrong law to apply. The TD and AC applied it out of familiarity, but in my opinion they were quite wrong to do so. L16 no more applies than L27 or L29 or a multitude of others. My route is L73B1 to L12A1 to L12C2 (and perhaps then to 12C3). Unfamiliar no doubt, but it seems exactly applicable to the case Richard cited (a beginner alerted his own transfer). L73B1 explicitly addresses extraneous alerts, and no indemnity is provided, leading us to 12A1. As to bridge judgment, the AC's result seems unlikely to be correct. If the beginners have used transfers from the beginning, it is "not at all probable" that they would forget, and there is no reason to adjust the score for either side. If they just learned transfers yesterday, then it is "likely" they might forget, and the score should be adjusted for both sides. As I wrote earlier, not "likely" but "at all probable" is a very narrow target. It is hard to imagine facts that would lead to that result, but it represents a legal ruling. Given that the TD and AC used the wrong law, I don't see any reason to trust their bridge judgment, but there is of course no way to be sure without having been at the hearing. If Richard asserts that their real intent was to issue a Reveley ruling, I have no reason to disbelieve him. From ydcidjclgafla at msn.com Sat Feb 19 16:40:53 2005 From: ydcidjclgafla at msn.com (Lorie Leonardo) Date: Sat Feb 19 19:41:45 2005 Subject: [blml] FW: FW: your private invitation 8i-23825nL Message-ID: <4291692454.19323@dyn-htl-14971.dyn.columbia.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050219/4ea2de43/attachment.html From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 03:31:25 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Sat Feb 19 20:07:27 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Steve Willner asked: >>I am surprised by this. In an earlier discussion, many TDs opined that >>they would rather be called sooner than later so they could quiz the >>players before memories faded and before the result on the board was >>known. Are you saying the TD should not do this? If not, is there any >>point at all in calling the TD before the alleged "UI user's" hand is >>revealed? [snip] Law 16A1: >.....immediately announce that he reserves the right to summon the >Director later (the opponents should summon the Director immediately if >they dispute the fact that unauthorised information might have been >conveyed). Richard Hills replies: In my opinion, the Director may properly _immediately_ determine whether or not disputed UI *existed*. Law 16A2: >.....The Director shall require the auction and play to continue, >standing ready to assign an adjusted score if he considers that an >infraction of law has resulted in damage. Richard Hills replies: In my opinion, the Director _must delay_ any determination about whether or not a demonstrably-suggested-by-UI logical alternative was *selected*. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Sat Feb 19 21:09:07 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Sat Feb 19 21:09:24 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1C947586-82B2-11D9-94BB-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Thursday, Feb 17, 2005, at 19:52 US/Eastern, richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > In my opinion, a TD or AC uses Law 16 to determine > whether a player forgetting their partnership agreement > (in the absence of unauthorised information) is a > logical alternative. Law 16A: "After a player makes available to his partner extraneous information that may suggest a call or play, as by means of a remark, a question, a reply to a question, or by unmistakable hesitation, unwonted speed, special emphasis, tone, gesture, movement, mannerism or the like, the partner may not choose from among logical alternative actions one that could demonstrably have been suggested over another by the extraneous information." A player makes a call under the assumption it means X. His partner alerts, which he did not expect. At this point, one of several things is true: 1. The player has forgotten that their agreement has some alertable meaning. 2. The player's partner has forgotten that their agreement does *not* have an alertable meaning. 3. The player has forgotten the actual agreement, which has an alertable meaning. 4. The player's partner has forgotten (or misremembered) the actual agreement, which does *not* have an alertable meaning. In all of these cases, the player has extraneous information. That information is that his partner thinks their agreement is alertable. If this fact, and this fact alone, demonstrably suggests some particular action over logical alternatives to that action, he may not choose that action. Whether item 3 in the list above is a "logical alternative" (to what, I wonder) is irrelevant. If an opponent asks, and his partner describes what (he thinks) the call means, than that is additional extraneous information, which may demonstrably suggest the same or different actions as the previous extraneous information. No matter, the only possible effect is to place greater constraints on the actions the player may legally choose. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 03:53:04 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Sat Feb 19 21:36:11 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <1DSSsXKWySFCFw8D@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Richard Hills: >>If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the >>cancellation of a partially completed board, then >>Ben is right. David Stevenson: >Well, we have no such regulation in England. We >just don't do it. Richard Hills: Presumably all English players are quicker than some Aussie players. Some years ago, in the Aussie Open Interstate Teams, a solitary board took 45 minutes to complete. If those Aussie players visited England to play in a duplicate, then duplicated their Deep Thought, is an English TD obliged to postpone the start of the next round by 45 minutes? :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From john at asimere.com Sat Feb 19 23:38:19 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Sat Feb 19 23:40:00 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <1DSSsXKWySFCFw8D@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article , richard.hills@immi.gov.au writes > > > > >Richard Hills: > >>>If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the >>>cancellation of a partially completed board, then >>>Ben is right. > >David Stevenson: > >>Well, we have no such regulation in England. We >>just don't do it. > >Richard Hills: > >Presumably all English players are quicker than some >Aussie players. Some years ago, in the Aussie Open >Interstate Teams, a solitary board took 45 minutes >to complete. > >If those Aussie players visited England to play in a >duplicate, then duplicated their Deep Thought, is an >English TD obliged to postpone the start of the next >round by 45 minutes? I'd tell the offnding player he's losing 10% every 15 seconds, after about 2 minutes :) > >:-) > > >Best wishes > >Richard Hills >Movie grognard and general guru > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From svenpran at online.no Sat Feb 19 23:50:41 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Sat Feb 19 23:50:54 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c516d5$700d92b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Richard Hills: > > Presumably all English players are quicker than some > Aussie players. Some years ago, in the Aussie Open > Interstate Teams, a solitary board took 45 minutes > to complete. > > If those Aussie players visited England to play in a > duplicate, then duplicated their Deep Thought, is an > English TD obliged to postpone the start of the next > round by 45 minutes? I assume yes although I cannot answer for England, but long before getting that far the Director would almost certainly have warned the players on their slow play. When warning them I would (when I suspected them to become that late) tell them that they would receive a penalty for slow play made out as a full top score for each seven minutes they used in excess of the seven minutes normally allocated for each board. In this case that would be (for both sides) a procedure penalty equal to five times a top score! The alternative is of course to disqualify them from the tournament which also is within the powers of the Director in such grave cases. Actually if players ignored my warning to the extent that they still had not completed play some five or maybe ten minutes after scheduled time I would probably disqualify them right away. Regards Sven From karel at esatclear.ie Sun Feb 20 01:58:18 2005 From: karel at esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Sun Feb 20 02:03:03 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural In-Reply-To: <000001c51542$7bcb6800$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Auction 2H 2S 2NT?? Does anyone play this as natural ?? Does it require agreement ?? The hands S KJxxxx H x D Qx C JTxx West East S xx S AQ H KTxxxx H AQT D Axxx D xxxx C X C AKQx S xxx H Jxx D Kxx C xxxx Bidding proceeds W N E S 2H 2S 2NT& P 3D* P 6H All pass & not alerted, agreed upon pause 7-10 secs * Apparently a Feature S called the TD. He said 2NT was not alerted. If he had been properly informed he may have bid 3S's in an attempt to make life difficult for the opposition. 2ndly the pause clearly indicated extra's and so West could afford a 3D bid when quite possibly the hand was only worth 3H's as he is a minimum. Finally it is possible 2NT could be natural in which case W definitely doesn't have a 3D bid. E/W had no notes to support their claims. comments ? K. From rldmgvspfz at dartmail.net Sun Feb 20 09:55:20 2005 From: rldmgvspfz at dartmail.net (Herminia Feldman) Date: Sun Feb 20 10:00:01 2005 Subject: [blml] Neevr been esaier Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050220/ba0e0bbf/attachment.gif From kgrauwel at hotmail.com Sun Feb 20 12:16:17 2005 From: kgrauwel at hotmail.com (Koen Grauwels) Date: Sun Feb 20 12:17:15 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes Message-ID: This happened yesterday: Declarer plays 4S and already lost 3 tricks. His last cards are spades: 753 I have spade 6 and 2 other cards. Declarer claims 2 of the last 3 tricks thinking that I have the highest spade. He does not say what he will play first. After the claim he realises that he has the highest spades and we give him the contract. (At the end this did not seem to be bad for us. It was a Swiss movement and after this we had to play at the lowest table. Next 3 rounds we scored very high against weaker opps) But what do you rule. Down 1 seems logic because play of small spades is likely alternative if he thinks that the highest spade is still out? _________________________________________________________________ From hermandw at hdw.be Sun Feb 20 12:34:16 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Sun Feb 20 12:33:33 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421875B8.5000506@hdw.be> I'd hate to say this, Koen, but this is an easy one. Down one it is. Playing the spade 3 is in no way not 'normal'. When you will have spent some more time on blml, Koen, you'll realize how rare it is for any claim to be considered 'easy' - usually I award on average two tricks more than most other posters. ;-) Koen Grauwels wrote: > This happened yesterday: > Declarer plays 4S and already lost 3 tricks. > His last cards are spades: 753 > I have spade 6 and 2 other cards. > Declarer claims 2 of the last 3 tricks thinking that I have the highest > spade. He does not say what he will play first. > After the claim he realises that he has the highest spades and we give > him the contract. > (At the end this did not seem to be bad for us. It was a Swiss movement > and after this we had to play at the lowest table. Next 3 rounds we > scored very high against weaker opps) > > But what do you rule. > Down 1 seems logic because play of small spades is likely alternative if > he thinks that the highest spade is still out? > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 From picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca Sun Feb 20 15:13:58 2005 From: picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca (Laval Dubreuil) Date: Sun Feb 20 15:13:33 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Karel writes: Auction 2H 2S 2NT?? Does anyone play this as natural ?? Does it require agreement? __________________________________________________________ In my school of bridge, I teach that 2NT continues to enquire (for a Feature). That is what Pavlicek (and other reference books I used) says. But anyway. In ACBL land, 2NT after a weak two opening, is not alertable when forcing (enquiring or not). Laval Du Breuil Quebec City From sdbjcwg at go2.pl Sun Feb 20 15:56:03 2005 From: sdbjcwg at go2.pl (Elvin Price) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:02:42 2005 Subject: [blml] Re: Requested aid. Message-ID: How have you been? I have very exciting news! We FINALLY were able to save an extra $450 a month We refinanced our mortgage with a 3.75% lower rate, and closing was fast! The application was free and we got several low rate quotes within days CIick on this link and check it out! http://www.mnm1.com/ Hope you do good with money over the coming year http://www.mnm1.com/gone.asp for NOMORE! From B.Schelen at IAE.NL Sun Feb 20 18:16:00 2005 From: B.Schelen at IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Sun Feb 20 18:22:04 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards References: Message-ID: <005a01c51770$da937500$df493dd4@c6l8v1> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 3:53 AM Subject: Re: [blml] played 2 wrong boards > > > > > Richard Hills: > > >>If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the > >>cancellation of a partially completed board, then > >>Ben is right. > > David Stevenson: > > >Well, we have no such regulation in England. We > >just don't do it. > > Richard Hills: > > Presumably all English players are quicker than some > Aussie players. Some years ago, in the Aussie Open > Interstate Teams, a solitary board took 45 minutes > to complete. > > If those Aussie players visited England to play in a > duplicate, then duplicated their Deep Thought, is an > English TD obliged to postpone the start of the next > round by 45 minutes? > > :-) > > That means that there is less time left for the other boards. But see the Conditions of Contest Maastricht 2000 Olympiad: 17.4 Slow play . . . . either or both pairs shall be subject to penalty according to the amount of delay for which such pair was judged responsible, as followes: Excess time apportioned to a pair during the Round Robin 0+ - 5 minutes late 1VP 5+ - 10 minutes late 1/2 VPs 10+ - 15 minutes late 2 VPs 15+ - 20 minutesl late 1/2 VPs 20+ - 25 minutes late 3 VPs Over 25 minutes late at the discretion of the Tournament Appeals Committee; may include recommandation of forfait of match or more severe action by the Executive Council. Is a clock used during chess-play in Australia? Ben From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Sun Feb 20 11:18:15 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Sun Feb 20 18:53:50 2005 Subject: [blml] A Short History of Texas References: Message-ID: <000301c51775$1c48c230$07f2f0c3@LNV> > > However, one special quiz answer was unique, in which the > idiosyncratic AC ruling was supported by the majority of > MSC panellists. > > WEST EAST > 1NT 4H(1) > 4S(2) 5H > ? > > (1) Texas transfer to spades > (2) A slight underbid; West had maximum values, 4-card spade > support, and slam-suitable honours > > The majority of MSC panellists passed, and a significant > number of those did not consider any other call. The AC also > supported the legality of a Pass of 5H - despite additionally > transmitted UI - on the grounds that 5H was obviously showing > a memory lapse, not the alternative (and systemic) meaning of > a slam try in spades. Could you tell me what the additional transmitted UI for East was? I have never understood this problem. ton From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Sun Feb 20 11:10:52 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Sun Feb 20 18:53:55 2005 Subject: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association References: <000a01c5140a$e29c74e0$c675893e@yourtkrv58tbs0> Message-ID: <000201c51775$1c0884e0$07f2f0c3@LNV> > > > A posting fraught with innuendo, wild guesses, and > > proprietary implications. Sure would like more information, > > including some copies of this fabulous bulletin, before > > swallowing the bait. > > > > Kojak > > > +=+ There is no doubt that it is a worthy publication. No need > to make invidious comparisons, but the unnamed English TD > is entitled to have the opinion he expresses. Kojak could > probably receive it on line as I do? > ~ G ~ +=+ Well, there are not that many TD-bulletins I know of, and even less if we exclude non-English magazines probably not read by English TD's. So it is not that difficult to be among the best in the world. But even if there were more I am willing to support the opinion that The Australian TD-bulletin is a very good one. ton From haraldskjaran at hotmail.com Sun Feb 20 19:24:22 2005 From: haraldskjaran at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SGFyYWxkIFNrauZyYW4=?=) Date: Sun Feb 20 19:25:14 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421875B8.5000506@hdw.be> Message-ID: >From: Herman De Wael >To: blml >Subject: Re: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:34:16 +0100 > >I'd hate to say this, Koen, but this is an easy one. >Down one it is. Playing the spade 3 is in no way not 'normal'. >When you will have spent some more time on blml, Koen, you'll realize how >rare it is for any claim to be considered 'easy' - usually I award on >average two tricks more than most other posters. ;-) It's good to see that we agree on a claim ruling, Herman. I suppose in the real world we agree on nearly 99% of claim rulings, although on BLML it seem to be the other way around. :-) Harald > >Koen Grauwels wrote: > >>This happened yesterday: >>Declarer plays 4S and already lost 3 tricks. >>His last cards are spades: 753 >>I have spade 6 and 2 other cards. >>Declarer claims 2 of the last 3 tricks thinking that I have the highest >>spade. He does not say what he will play first. >>After the claim he realises that he has the highest spades and we give him >>the contract. >>(At the end this did not seem to be bad for us. It was a Swiss movement >>and after this we had to play at the lowest table. Next 3 rounds we scored >>very high against weaker opps) >> >>But what do you rule. >>Down 1 seems logic because play of small spades is likely alternative if >>he thinks that the highest spade is still out? >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blml mailing list >>blml@amsterdamned.org >>http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> >> > >-- >Herman DE WAEL >Antwerpen Belgium >http://www.hdw.be > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger http://www.msn.no/messenger Den korteste veien mellom deg og dine venner From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 06:59:23 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Sun Feb 20 20:12:42 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Steve Willner: >In any case, how should the TD advise the players so they can continue >the board, knowing their rights? Richard Hills: In practice, the Laws are so poorly written that it is impossible for the average club player and the average club TD to fully understand the nuances of required procedures after generation of UI. In theory, TDs should run out-of-session seminars for their customers about the Laws (as Canadian TD Laval Dubreuil does). But the TD need not delay play with a real-time seminar on UI. All the TD needs to say is, "If either side thinks, at the end of play, that the non-hesitating side may have been damaged as a result of the hesitation, then please call me back." Off-topic -> In my opinion, a friendly atmosphere is created if the offending side is the first to summon the TD after attention has been drawn to an irregularity. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 18 03:45:15 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Sun Feb 20 20:57:51 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Steve Willner: [snip] >What is the TD supposed to do in these situations, where a >look at the alleged hesitator's hand might be important >evidence? Richard Hills: Under the current "no-fault" provisions of Law 16, *why* an (alleged) hesitator (allegedly) hesitated is irrelevant. The Law 16 question is, rather, what the (alleged) hesitation would demonstrably suggest to the *partner* of the alleged hesitator. The answer to such a Law 16 question must be delayed, as specifically stated in Law 16A2. *Motivation* for an (alleged) hesitation is only relevant in the much rarer rulings pursuant to Law 73B2 and Law 73F2. Likewise, such rare rulings do not need real-time resolution. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From ynuafsas at arconvert.it Sun Feb 20 21:59:45 2005 From: ynuafsas at arconvert.it (Johnie Hendricks) Date: Sun Feb 20 22:05:11 2005 Subject: [blml] Stimulate your sex life! Message-ID: <200203400004.g6A59XX02708@eng2.beaverton.ibm.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050220/0bd9c77a/attachment-0001.html From schoderb at msn.com Sun Feb 20 22:17:28 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Sun Feb 20 22:18:14 2005 Subject: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association References: <000a01c5140a$e29c74e0$c675893e@yourtkrv58tbs0> <000201c51775$1c0884e0$07f2f0c3@LNV> Message-ID: And having renewed my contact with Laurie Kelso and going over the material I think it's a fine publication.. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ton Kooijman" To: "Grattan Endicott" ; "richard hills" ; ; "WILLIAM SCHODER" Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 5:10 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Australian Bridge Directors Association > > > > > A posting fraught with innuendo, wild guesses, and > > > proprietary implications. Sure would like more information, > > > including some copies of this fabulous bulletin, before > > > swallowing the bait. > > > > > > Kojak > > > > > +=+ There is no doubt that it is a worthy publication. No need > > to make invidious comparisons, but the unnamed English TD > > is entitled to have the opinion he expresses. Kojak could > > probably receive it on line as I do? > > ~ G ~ +=+ > > > Well, there are not that many TD-bulletins I know of, and even less if we > exclude non-English magazines probably not read by English TD's. So it is > not that difficult to be among the best in the world. But even if there > were > more I am willing to support the opinion that The Australian TD-bulletin > is > a very good one. > > > ton > > From ehaa at starpower.net Sun Feb 20 22:37:41 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Sun Feb 20 22:33:58 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural In-Reply-To: References: <000001c51542$7bcb6800$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050220162734.02acb040@pop.starpower.net> At 07:58 PM 2/19/05, Karel wrote: >Auction >2H 2S 2NT?? > >Does anyone play this as natural ?? I do. But then I usually play EHAA, in which 2H-P-2NT is also natural. >Does it require agreement ?? Any meaning requires agreement. Out of the blue, it might be intended as natural, or it might be intended to carry the same meaning as 2H-P-2NT, whatever that might be (presumably not natural for a non-EHAA player). >The hands > S KJxxxx > H x > D Qx > C JTxx > >West East >S xx S AQ >H KTxxxx H AQT >D Axxx D xxxx >C X C AKQx > > S xxx > H Jxx > D Kxx > C xxxx > >Bidding proceeds >W N E S >2H 2S 2NT& P >3D* P 6H All pass > >& not alerted, agreed upon pause 7-10 secs >* Apparently a Feature > >S called the TD. He said 2NT was not alerted. If he had been properly >informed he may have bid 3S's in an attempt to make life difficult for the >opposition. 2ndly the pause clearly indicated extra's and so West could >afford a 3D bid when quite possibly the hand was only worth 3H's as he >is a >minimum. Finally it is possible 2NT could be natural in which case W >definitely doesn't have a 3D bid. E/W had no notes to support their >claims. > >comments ? I strongly disagree with the fourth sentence in the paragraph above. I would not consider any rebid which systemically shows minimum playing strength a logical alternative to 3D. Moreover, if the 2NT bid was undefined, hence ambiguous between natural and not, I see no reason to presume that the hesitation would suggest either possibility over the other. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Sun Feb 20 23:05:42 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Sun Feb 20 23:06:03 2005 Subject: [blml] A Short History of Texas In-Reply-To: <000301c51775$1c48c230$07f2f0c3@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Richard: >>However, one special quiz answer was unique, in which the >>idiosyncratic AC ruling was supported by the majority of >>MSC panellists. >> >>WEST EAST >>1NT 4H(1) >>4S(2) 5H >>? >> >>(1) Texas transfer to spades >>(2) A slight underbid; West had maximum values, 4-card spade >> support, and slam-suitable honours >> >>The majority of MSC panellists passed, and a significant >>number of those did not consider any other call. The AC also >>supported the legality of a Pass of 5H - despite additionally >>transmitted UI - on the grounds that 5H was obviously showing >>a memory lapse, not the alternative (and systemic) meaning of >>a slam try in spades. ton: >Could you tell me what the additional transmitted UI for East >was? I have never understood this problem. Richard: What happened at the table -> WEST EAST 1NT 4H(1) 4S(2) 5H(3) Pass (1) Quicker than normal tempo, demonstrably suggesting that East might have forgotten their Texas convention. (2) Blackwood was a logical alternative, but then it would be impossible to confirm whether or not East had forgotten their Texas convention. (3) Slower than normal tempo, confirming that East had indeed forgotten their Texas convention. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From john at asimere.com Sun Feb 20 23:12:23 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Sun Feb 20 23:14:28 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural In-Reply-To: References: <000001c51542$7bcb6800$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <2drcruAHtQGCFwkV@asimere.com> In article , Karel writes > >Auction >2H 2S 2NT?? > >Does anyone play this as natural ?? >Does it require agreement ?? > > >The hands > S KJxxxx > H x > D Qx > C JTxx > >West East >S xx S AQ >H KTxxxx H AQT >D Axxx D xxxx >C X C AKQx > > S xxx > H Jxx > D Kxx > C xxxx > >Bidding proceeds >W N E S >2H 2S 2NT& P >3D* P 6H All pass > >& not alerted, agreed upon pause 7-10 secs >* Apparently a Feature > >S called the TD. He said 2NT was not alerted. If he had been properly >informed he may have bid 3S's in an attempt to make life difficult for the >opposition. 2ndly the pause clearly indicated extra's and so West could >afford a 3D bid when quite possibly the hand was only worth 3H's as he is a >minimum. Finally it is possible 2NT could be natural in which case W >definitely doesn't have a 3D bid. I just don't expect 2NT to be natural. It's inconceivable. To suggest a 6-4 with 3 controls is a minimum is like suggesting Reagan was a democrat. I suppose bidding 3S is possible if you're a drug-crazed Yahoo at favourable vulnerability. Sheesh it's 11 losers 4333. Result stands "Why are you wasting my time". It'd certainly cause instant hysteria in the bar of the YC. > E/W had no notes to support their claims. > >comments ? > >K. > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Sun Feb 20 23:32:12 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Sun Feb 20 23:33:52 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Koen Grauwels writes >This happened yesterday: >Declarer plays 4S and already lost 3 tricks. >His last cards are spades: 753 >I have spade 6 and 2 other cards. >Declarer claims 2 of the last 3 tricks thinking that I have the highest >spade. He does not say what he will play first. >After the claim he realises that he has the highest spades and we give him >the contract. >(At the end this did not seem to be bad for us. It was a Swiss movement and >after this we had to play at the lowest table. Next 3 rounds we scored very >high against weaker opps) > >But what do you rule. >Down 1 seems logic because play of small spades is likely alternative if he >thinks that the highest spade is still out? I think your intuitive feel for this is correct. The test is "careless but not irrational". A small trump is careless but not irrational. > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Sun Feb 20 23:39:54 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Sun Feb 20 23:40:09 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <200502202229.j1KMTkdh021069@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502202229.j1KMTkdh021069@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421911BA.7030803@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Koen Grauwels" > His last cards are spades: 753 > I have spade 6 and 2 other cards. > Declarer claims Obviously I'm out of step with everyone else, but I can't imagine a clearer case of "irrational" than failing to play top-down. Yes, I know, people sometimes do irrational things, but that doesn't make them proper for adjudicating claims. From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Sun Feb 20 23:45:16 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Sun Feb 20 23:45:29 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <200502202232.j1KMWvTZ021402@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502202232.j1KMWvTZ021402@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421912FC.2060900@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au > All the TD needs to say is, > > "If either side thinks, at the end of play, that the non-hesitating > side may have been damaged as a result of the hesitation, then please > call me back." So you neither investigate nor rule as to whether a break in tempo existed? Nor advise the partner of the alleged tempo-breaker that his actions may be restricted? > Under the current "no-fault" provisions of Law 16, *why* an > (alleged) hesitator (allegedly) hesitated is irrelevant. No doubt everyone agrees with this. I think Anne's point was that the alleged hesitator's hand could provide useful evidence as to whether there had been a hesitation or not. I'm curious what others think about her proposition. From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 21 00:03:56 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 21 00:04:11 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421911BA.7030803@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000201c517a0$75502500$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Steve Willner > Sent: 20. februar 2005 23:40 > To: blml@rtflb.org > Subject: Re: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes > > > From: "Koen Grauwels" > > His last cards are spades: 753 > > I have spade 6 and 2 other cards. > > Declarer claims > > Obviously I'm out of step with everyone else, but I can't imagine a > clearer case of "irrational" than failing to play top-down. Yes, I > know, people sometimes do irrational things, but that doesn't make them > proper for adjudicating claims. If you "know" there is just one trump out and that trump is the highest one left then it doesn't matter which trump you play to get rid of that last one. Thus there is nothing "irrational" about playing your smallest trump unless you believe your own trump is the highest one left in the play. Regards Sven From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 00:32:21 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 00:33:55 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: References: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: rjh wrote >In practice, the Laws are so poorly written that it is impossible for >the average club player and the average club TD to fully understand the >nuances of required procedures after generation of UI. Law books are not tutorials. The way to teach TDs how to apply UI Laws is not by writing better Law books: it is by training and training manuals. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 00:33:45 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 00:35:16 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <421912FC.2060900@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502202232.j1KMWvTZ021402@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421912FC.2060900@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Steve Willner wrote >> From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au >> All the TD needs to say is, >> "If either side thinks, at the end of play, that the non-hesitating >> side may have been damaged as a result of the hesitation, then please >> call me back." > >So you neither investigate nor rule as to whether a break in tempo >existed? Nor advise the partner of the alleged tempo-breaker that his >actions may be restricted? > >> Under the current "no-fault" provisions of Law 16, *why* an >> (alleged) hesitator (allegedly) hesitated is irrelevant. > >No doubt everyone agrees with this. > >I think Anne's point was that the alleged hesitator's hand could >provide useful evidence as to whether there had been a hesitation or >not. I'm curious what others think about her proposition. The EBU approach is that this is a last resort approach. TDs only use the hand if unable to decide otherwise, and that should be very rare. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 00:37:13 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 00:38:35 2005 Subject: [blml] multi session score computation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <$y+AgECp8RGCFwXn@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Gordon Bower wrote >If you are going to work with fractions like 7/6 anyway you might as well >go ahead and use Neuberg: multiplying by 8/7 isnt that much harder than by >7/6. It is far more difficult to understand. I really do not see why you want to complain because simple TDs with no training use a simple, easily understood and relatively fair method that they understand. >You may be interested to know that the officially sanctioned method of >hand-scoring in the ACBL is not to do any multiplying at all: you are >simply instructed to add half a matchpoint to shift the 0-to-6 scores up >to be 0.5-to-6.5. In the mid-90s, the club director's examination included >handscoring a fouled board using this method. I've not heard of a change >in procedure but not seen the after-1997 examination, either. When half your field plays 24 boards, and half 27, you factor, and I bet you do in the ACBL as well. I am not suggesting factoring for averages: you score those as averages, as you have explained. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 00:39:49 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 00:41:15 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <1DSSsXKWySFCFw8D@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: wrote > > > > >Richard Hills: > >>>If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the >>>cancellation of a partially completed board, then >>>Ben is right. > >David Stevenson: > >>Well, we have no such regulation in England. We >>just don't do it. > >Richard Hills: > >Presumably all English players are quicker than some >Aussie players. Some years ago, in the Aussie Open >Interstate Teams, a solitary board took 45 minutes >to complete. > >If those Aussie players visited England to play in a >duplicate, then duplicated their Deep Thought, is an >English TD obliged to postpone the start of the next >round by 45 minutes? > >:-) I sometimes wonder whether the point of BLML so to discuss the Laws, and their application, or just to produce ludicrous arguments. I leave it to others to actually work out whether this question requires a serious answer. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 00:48:50 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 00:50:37 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <1DSSsXKWySFCFw8D@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <$A8gMoFiHSGCFwEv@blakjak.demon.co.uk> David Stevenson wrote > wrote >> >> >> >> >>Richard Hills: >> >>>>If the regulations of The Netherlands prohibit the >>>>cancellation of a partially completed board, then >>>>Ben is right. >> >>David Stevenson: >> >>>Well, we have no such regulation in England. We >>>just don't do it. >> >>Richard Hills: >> >>Presumably all English players are quicker than some >>Aussie players. Some years ago, in the Aussie Open >>Interstate Teams, a solitary board took 45 minutes >>to complete. >> >>If those Aussie players visited England to play in a >>duplicate, then duplicated their Deep Thought, is an >>English TD obliged to postpone the start of the next >>round by 45 minutes? >> >>:-) > > I sometimes wonder whether the point of BLML so to discuss the Laws, >and their application, or just to produce ludicrous arguments. > > I leave it to others to actually work out whether this question >requires a serious answer. OK, I was in a seriously bad mood when I wrote this, ad it was somewhat ruder than necessary. So, Richard, tell me, why did you ask the question? Do you really believe we cannot run tournaments in England? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 21 00:51:11 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 21 00:51:31 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <421912FC.2060900@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Steve Willner asked: [snip] >Nor advise the partner of the alleged tempo-breaker that his >actions may be restricted? [snip] Richard Hills replies: As TD (except when running a supervised play session) I do not give *prior* advice to a player that inadvertently revoking has adverse consequences. As TD (except when running a supervised play session) I do not give *prior* advice that inadvertently selecting a demonstrably suggested logical alternative has adverse consequences. As TD (except when running a supervised play session) it is not my responsibility to give *prior* advice to a player on strategy, not even the subset of strategic advice about how to prevent an auction or play irregularity. In my opinion, only dummy has (limited) powers, under Law 42B2, to prevent an play irregularity. As TD (except when running a supervised play session) the only types of irregularities I prevent are irregularities in the movement and/or irregularities in the courtesy requirements of Law 74A2. *After* a player has received a bottom due to a revoke, a player tends to be more careful about revoking. And *after* ruling on a revoke, I carefully explain the revoke laws. *After* a player has received a bottom due to using UI, a player tends to be more careful about selecting logical alternatives. And *after* ruling on use of UI, I carefully explain the UI laws (especially Law 73C). Personal opinion -> Anyway, the best way to teach customers to avoid playing with the fire of an irregularity is to first let them get burnt. :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 21 01:44:58 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 21 01:45:17 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: rjh wrote: >>In practice, the Laws are so poorly written that it is impossible for >>the average club player and the average club TD to fully understand the >>nuances of required procedures after generation of UI. > Law books are not tutorials. The way to teach TDs how to apply UI >Laws is not by writing better Law books: it is by training and training >manuals. > >-- >David Stevenson rjh writes: The fabulous Law book isn't yet (fully) a manual/tutorial. We agree on outcome, merely differ on process. As Grattan has noted, in many areas of the world a copy of the Laws is the only tool a local TD has. Therefore, in my opinion, it would be useful if the 2008(1) Laws were written so that they were dual-purpose - both a legal framework, and also a manual/tutorial. Even the current 1997 Laws are *partially* a tutorial - see the footnote to Law 75. (1) Footnote - With regards to the drafting of the next edition of the fabulous Law book, a relative of Murphy's Law is the 90/90 Law. The first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time; the remaining 10% of the project takes the other 90% of the time. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 21 02:00:24 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 21 02:00:42 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421911BA.7030803@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Koen Grauwels: >>>His last cards are spades: 753 >>>I have spade 6 and 2 other cards. >>>Declarer claims Steve Willner: >>Obviously I'm out of step with everyone else, but >>I can't imagine a clearer case of "irrational" >>than failing to play top-down. Yes, I know, >>people sometimes do irrational things, but that >>doesn't make them proper for adjudicating claims. Ecclesiastes: >There is nothing new under the sun. Richard Hills: This particular careless or inferior claim situation was discussed on blml a number of years ago. As a result of that discussion, an addition was made during the subsequent revision of the English Bridge Union White Book (TD Guide). EBU White Book, clause 70.5, Top Down? >>>>A declarer who states that he is cashing a suit >>>>is normally assumed to cash them from the top, >>>>especially if there is some solidity. However, >>>>each individual case should be considered. >>>> >>>>Example: Suppose declarer claims three tricks >>>>with AK5 opposite 42, forgetting the jack has not >>>>gone. It would be normal to give him three tricks >>>>since it might be considered irrational to play >>>>the 5 first. However, with 754 opposite void it >>>>may be considered careless rather than irrational >>>>to lose a trick to a singleton six. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From NXFZMDESHY at mprecords.it Mon Feb 21 03:53:33 2005 From: NXFZMDESHY at mprecords.it (Sandy Terry) Date: Mon Feb 21 04:01:43 2005 Subject: [blml] dont worry about photo cops anymore Message-ID: <1026622284.204.1.camel@azrael> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050221/7c776c5e/attachment.html From dmwbraobym at ip.versatel.de Mon Feb 21 06:58:45 2005 From: dmwbraobym at ip.versatel.de (Bradly Soto) Date: Mon Feb 21 07:09:34 2005 Subject: [blml] don`t be an asshole Hung Message-ID: <0.1129714968.1197980757-065966658@topica.com> Offshore pharm wish you all best in New Year! We will offer you best prices on any meds you need Viagra Cialis Valium Xanax and much more.. Please click below and check out our offer. http://imbibe.discounthavenshop.com/?wid=100069 remainder qk eelgrass etb allison cf boucher dxs do alh doorstep llr glue aht compressive lpi flange tm broth oc charley zvg chord reh boy ti rhodonite oc http://angles.discounthavenshop.com/nomore.html From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 21 07:25:54 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 21 07:26:29 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <$A8gMoFiHSGCFwEv@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: David Stevenson: >> OK, I was in a seriously bad mood when I wrote this, and it >>was somewhat ruder than necessary. >> >> So, Richard, tell me, why did you ask the question? Do you >>really believe we cannot run tournaments in England? Oscar Wilde (The Importance of Being Earnest): >On an occasion of this kind it becomes more than a moral duty >to speak one's mind. It becomes a pleasure. :-) Apology accepted. I am not one without sin who casts the first stone through a glass house. Indeed, last week I had to grovel an apology to a Canberra colleague after I pleasurably invoked my moral duty to speak my mind. The question I asked in my previous post was merely an (overly obscure) attempt to use the Euclidean logical technique of reductio ad absurdum. I was trying to demonstrate that it was reasonable to interpret the Laws so that a TD had the Goldilocks power to cancel a partially completed board. In my opinion, sometimes the TD option of delaying the next round is too cold. In my opinion, sometimes the TD option of disqualifying a pair from the session is too hot. Note: The sponsoring organisation at the First European Open Championship at Menton also supported the Goldilocks option of cancelling a partially completed board, as their regulations specifically gave their TDs that power (and also specified protocols for the consequent adjusted scores). Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From rpnisjxhpss at btopenworld.com Mon Feb 21 08:20:30 2005 From: rpnisjxhpss at btopenworld.com (Mauricio Wilkinson) Date: Mon Feb 21 08:20:44 2005 Subject: [blml] The bset Daels Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050221/c56f594d/attachment.gif From rpnisjxhpss at btopenworld.com Mon Feb 21 08:20:30 2005 From: rpnisjxhpss at btopenworld.com (Mauricio Wilkinson) Date: Mon Feb 21 08:20:54 2005 Subject: [blml] The bset Daels Message-ID: <20050221072037.CCAF0292@rhubarb.custard.org> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050221/b5311319/attachment.gif From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 21 09:53:20 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 21 09:52:31 2005 Subject: [blml] A revoke that does not cost Message-ID: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> We all know the rule: if you gain a trick by revoking, you usually give 2 back; if the revoke does not win, you only have to give one back, so most revokes end up costing you one trick. Yesterday a young lady performed the following trick - and I'm certain it was unintentional: - xx Ax ? 9 x xx ? Playing in hearts, opponent led a spade, which she ruffed, discarding a diamond from hand. Then she played DA and ruffed a diamond, after which she ruffed a spade. So she made those four tricks and she had revoked. But she neither won the revoke trick (not in hand anyway) nor a trick with the spade nine (she ruffed that one) so there is only one penalty trick. And L64C is satisfied also (all opponent's trums are out) because she would always make 3 of those four tricks. Yet if the opponents don't start asking "why did you play in double ruff?", the revoke gets undetected and she's up one trick. Nice trick or what? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 From gordon at gordonrainsford.co.uk Mon Feb 21 12:25:30 2005 From: gordon at gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Mon Feb 21 12:25:46 2005 Subject: [blml] A revoke that does not cost In-Reply-To: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> References: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> Message-ID: <90aa0013c116bceaf048bfdc02497f75@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 21 Feb 2005, at 08:53, Herman De Wael wrote: > We all know the rule: if you gain a trick by revoking, you usually > give 2 back; if the revoke does not win, you only have to give one > back, so most revokes end up costing you one trick. That's not the rule as I know it. -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From Mikeamosbridge at aol.com Mon Feb 21 12:30:40 2005 From: Mikeamosbridge at aol.com (Mikeamosbridge@aol.com) Date: Mon Feb 21 12:35:46 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards Message-ID: In a message dated 21/02/2005 06:26:23 GMT Standard Time, richard.hills@immi.gov.au writes: Note: The sponsoring organisation at the First European Open Championship at Menton also supported the Goldilocks option of cancelling a partially completed board, as their regulations specifically gave their TDs that power (and also specified protocols for the consequent adjusted scores). Funny thing that no Td ever used this power as far as I know :)) "What you think we are crazeeeeee" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050221/dfffd6e1/attachment.html From toddz at att.net Mon Feb 21 12:36:49 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Mon Feb 21 12:37:08 2005 Subject: [blml] A revoke that does not cost In-Reply-To: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> References: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> Message-ID: <4219C7D1.4010601@att.net> Herman De Wael wrote: > We all know the rule: if you gain a trick by revoking, you usually give > 2 back; if the revoke does not win, you only have to give one back, so > most revokes end up costing you one trick. Alas, if it only did work that way. Revokes are frequently unpunished and only equity restored. -Todd (I thought we've been here before?) From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 21 12:37:54 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Mon Feb 21 12:37:49 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? Message-ID: <005701c51809$c894e2a0$609468d5@James> [Richard James Hills] >> In practice, the Laws are so poorly written that >> it is impossible for the average club player and >> the average club TD to fully understand the >> nuances of required procedures after generation >> of UI. [David Stevenson] > Law books are not tutorials. The way to teach > TDs how to apply UI Laws is not by writing better > Law books: it is by training and training manuals. [Nigel] TFLB is definitely not a tutorial -- more like a Rorschach ink blot (: The rules of most games are sufficiently complete, simple and objective for players to understand them; why must Bridge be an exception such that only a few top directors are privy to the true meaning of its laws; to qualify they must attend long training courses, supplemented by continuous study of reams of commentaries, minutes, and interpretations; after all this, their rulings still differ in the simplest BLML cases, with all facts agreed :) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 21 12:38:37 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Mon Feb 21 12:38:32 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards Message-ID: <006201c51809$e201aca0$609468d5@James> [Richard James Hills] > Note: The sponsoring organisation at the First > European Open Championship at Menton also supported > the Goldilocks option of cancelling a partially > completed board, as their regulations > specifically gave their TDs that power (and also > specified protocols for the consequent adjusted > scores). [Nigel] IMO this argument is academic. Several BLMers have suggested [legally] imposing procedural penalties of a top or more to both sides when the play is very slow. A director may regard this as different from [illegally] cancelling a board, in theory. In practice, however, players are likely to regard this as equivalent or worse. The mere threat will probably precipitate a claim or concession. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 21 13:33:45 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Mon Feb 21 13:33:41 2005 Subject: [blml] A revoke that does not cost References: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> Message-ID: <007501c51811$95a052f0$609468d5@James> [Herman De Wael] > We all know the rule: if you gain a trick by revoking, > you usually give 2 back; if the revoke does not win, > you only have to give one back, so most revokes end up > costing you one trick. > Yesterday a young lady performed the following trick > - and I'm certain it was unintentional: > Dummy: S- H:xx D:Ax C:? > dECLARER: S:9 H:X D:XX C:? > Playing in hearts, opponent led a spade, which she > ruffed, discarding a diamond from hand. Then she played > DA and ruffed a diamond, after which she ruffed a spade. > So she made those four tricks and she had revoked. But > she neither won the revoke trick (not in hand anyway) > nor a trick with the spade nine (she ruffed that one) > so there is only one penalty trick. And L64C is satisfied > also (all opponent's trums are out) because she would > always make 3 of those four tricks. Yet if the opponents > don't start asking "why did you play in double ruff?", > the revoke gets undetected and she's up one trick. > Nice trick or what? [Nigel] Herman has produced another example to show why so-called "equity" laws are unfair. Many infractions go undetected, unreported, or unreprimanded. In the long run, offenders are rewarded. For example, revoke laws used to be harsher, not just to deter the offender, but also as a token partial redress for past times when the victim failed to detect revokes against him. In theory, "Equity" laws might be justifiable if infractions were always detected. IMO, in real life, it is a poor taste practical joke on players to pretend that procedural penalties and the like can compensate for basically lax laws. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 13:51:26 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 13:53:03 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <$A8gMoFiHSGCFwEv@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: rjh wrote > > > > >David Stevenson: > >>> OK, I was in a seriously bad mood when I wrote this, and it >>>was somewhat ruder than necessary. >>> >>> So, Richard, tell me, why did you ask the question? Do you >>>really believe we cannot run tournaments in England? > >Oscar Wilde (The Importance of Being Earnest): > >>On an occasion of this kind it becomes more than a moral duty >>to speak one's mind. It becomes a pleasure. > >:-) > >Apology accepted. I am not one without sin who casts the first >stone through a glass house. Indeed, last week I had to grovel >an apology to a Canberra colleague after I pleasurably invoked >my moral duty to speak my mind. > >The question I asked in my previous post was merely an (overly >obscure) attempt to use the Euclidean logical technique of >reductio ad absurdum. The problem with this reductio ad absurdum method is that it is **seriously*** unhelpful to people trying to work out how to direct, how to interpret the Laws, and so on. Of course a competent TD will do whatever is necessary in an extreme situation, but talking as though the extreme situations are the norm helps no-one. 'If someone dies during a hand do you cancel the board? Do you give the player who dies Average Minus because it was his death that meant the board cannot be completed.' This is not helpful and not worth discussing. When we are talking about slow play we are not talking of ridiculousness. If we get something quite ridiculous we shall deal with it. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 21 14:06:58 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:06:14 2005 Subject: [blml] A revoke that does not cost In-Reply-To: <4219C7D1.4010601@att.net> References: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> <4219C7D1.4010601@att.net> Message-ID: <4219DCF2.4000102@hdw.be> Todd M. Zimnoch wrote: > Herman De Wael wrote: > >> We all know the rule: if you gain a trick by revoking, you usually >> give 2 back; if the revoke does not win, you only have to give one >> back, so most revokes end up costing you one trick. > > > Alas, if it only did work that way. Revokes are frequently > unpunished and only equity restored. > I don't think you should use the word "frequently" here. There are a number of revokes that go unpunished, but a large proportion of them are revokes where either it is deemed the revoker did nothing really wrong (as in the revoke in trick 12), or that the opponent also did something wrong (as in not noticing the revoke soon enough) A rare phenomenon is the revoke that wins 3 tricks, and where only equity is restored. So the "frequently" above is not very correct. This is a very particular case. If the revoke goes undetected, it gains a trick, if it is detected, it costs nothing. Something one might consider remembering - even if you can follow suit, play it as if opponent had given you a ruff-n-sluff. Worth remembering too as directors, in order to recognize the ploy if it has been attempted with malicious intent (when we can use L72B2). > -Todd > (I thought we've been here before?) > not necessarily exactly here - maybe on the same continent, yes. > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 21 14:20:26 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:20:40 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201c51818$1bb781a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of David Stevenson .............. > The problem with this reductio ad absurdum method is that it is > **seriously*** unhelpful to people trying to work out how to direct, how > to interpret the Laws, and so on. Of course a competent TD will do > whatever is necessary in an extreme situation, but talking as though the > extreme situations are the norm helps no-one. > > 'If someone dies during a hand do you cancel the board? Do you give > the player who dies Average Minus because it was his death that meant > the board cannot be completed.' This is not helpful and not worth > discussing. > > When we are talking about slow play we are not talking of > ridiculousness. If we get something quite ridiculous we shall deal with > it. I believe it will help any discussion if we manage to distinguish between (true) "force majeure" and unacceptable activities like extremely slow play. Regards Sven From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 14:45:07 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:46:29 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <001201c51818$1bb781a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <001201c51818$1bb781a0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> On Behalf Of David Stevenson >.............. >> The problem with this reductio ad absurdum method is that it is >> **seriously*** unhelpful to people trying to work out how to direct, how >> to interpret the Laws, and so on. Of course a competent TD will do >> whatever is necessary in an extreme situation, but talking as though the >> extreme situations are the norm helps no-one. >> >> 'If someone dies during a hand do you cancel the board? Do you give >> the player who dies Average Minus because it was his death that meant >> the board cannot be completed.' This is not helpful and not worth >> discussing. >> >> When we are talking about slow play we are not talking of >> ridiculousness. If we get something quite ridiculous we shall deal with >> it. > >I believe it will help any discussion if we manage to distinguish between >(true) "force majeure" and unacceptable activities like extremely slow play. Right. Now if someone takes fifteen minutes to play a board he will get warned, PPs, possibly lose a later board, but we do not take the board away -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 21 14:59:58 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:59:14 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? Message-ID: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> An old problem resurfaced yesterday. The reply to 4NT Blackwood is 5H, and before the lead, they as what 5H means. The reply is "2 aces". Opening leader asks "of 5?" and "without the queen of trumps?", to which the replies are positive (many people play it that way). Declarer now finesses leader's partner for the trump queen and of course the one who has asked about her, has her himself. They don't call the TD, but do badger me about it afterwards. They don't seem to understand that if we rule against this gentlemen, the lovely lady who has given the incomplete reply has now a potential for 100% finding the queen: if either opponent asks, they will either find the queen or get it back from the Director. Which is why I tell them that I (and I know I'm almost alone in this) will NOT reward them this way and leave the queen with opponents. Which leads to a double ploy: Now the one who has the queen, seeing me as TD, has a 100% play for the setting trick: whenever they give an incomplete answer, just ask for the completion and hope they will fall for the bait, since this TD will no longer protect them. Now from those 2 evils, I still choose the one in which the non-offenders are better off. I have told my lovely ladies that this is a non-issue. Next time simply say "2/5 without trump queen" and none of this happens. But should we allow the opponents to keep using their trick whenever the chance arises? I for one always ask, preferably without checking if I have the queen or not. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 21 15:12:53 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 21 15:13:07 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801c5181f$6f094b20$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of David Stevenson ........... > >I believe it will help any discussion if we manage to distinguish between > >(true) "force majeure" and unacceptable activities like extremely slow > play. > > Right. Now if someone takes fifteen minutes to play a board he will > get warned, PPs, possibly lose a later board, but we do not take the > board away I think it is quite clear that we both say "of course not"! (As do most of our fellow directors) Regards Sven From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 21 15:36:11 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 21 15:36:26 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> Message-ID: <001f01c51822$b0b58d10$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Herman De Wael > An old problem resurfaced yesterday. > > The reply to 4NT Blackwood is 5H, and before the lead, they as what 5H > means. The reply is "2 aces". Opening leader asks "of 5?" and "without > the queen of trumps?", to which the replies are positive (many people > play it that way). > > Declarer now finesses leader's partner for the trump queen and of > course the one who has asked about her, has her himself. > > They don't call the TD, but do badger me about it afterwards. > > They don't seem to understand that if we rule against this gentlemen, > the lovely lady who has given the incomplete reply has now a potential > for 100% finding the queen: if either opponent asks, they will either > find the queen or get it back from the Director. > > Which is why I tell them that I (and I know I'm almost alone in this) > will NOT reward them this way and leave the queen with opponents. > > Which leads to a double ploy: Now the one who has the queen, seeing me > as TD, has a 100% play for the setting trick: whenever they give an > incomplete answer, just ask for the completion and hope they will fall > for the bait, since this TD will no longer protect them. > > Now from those 2 evils, I still choose the one in which the > non-offenders are better off. I have told my lovely ladies that this > is a non-issue. Next time simply say "2/5 without trump queen" and > none of this happens. > > But should we allow the opponents to keep using their trick whenever > the chance arises? > > I for one always ask, preferably without checking if I have the queen > or not. When you suspect a ploy why not just rule against both sides with a split score ruling? IMO you should of course rule against a player holding the queen and asking a question which indicates that he does not hold the queen and you should also rule against a player giving an incomplete answer. (Another example why I discourage leading questions. How much easier had the situation been if the question simply was: "What are we entitled to know" or more specific "what does 5H show"?) regards Sven From Frances.Hinden at Shell.com Mon Feb 21 15:58:18 2005 From: Frances.Hinden at Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Mon Feb 21 15:58:37 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101817567@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> At 07:58 PM 2/19/05, Karel wrote: >Auction >2H 2S 2NT?? > >Does anyone play this as natural ?? >Does it require agreement ?? >The hands > S KJxxxx > H x > D Qx > C JTxx > >West East >S xx S AQ >H KTxxxx H AQT >D Axxx D xxxx >C X C AKQx > > S xxx > H Jxx > D Kxx > C xxxx > >Bidding proceeds >W N E S >2H 2S 2NT& P >3D* P 6H All pass > >& not alerted, agreed upon pause 7-10 secs >* Apparently a Feature > >S called the TD. He said 2NT was not alerted. If he had been properly >informed he may have bid 3S's in an attempt to make life difficult for the >opposition. 2ndly the pause clearly indicated extra's and so West could >afford a 3D bid when quite possibly the hand was only worth 3H's as he >is a >minimum. Finally it is possible 2NT could be natural in which case W >definitely doesn't have a 3D bid. E/W had no notes to support their >claims. > >comments ? Tell N/S to get a life. (Alternatively, if NS are vul against not they can have -1100 in 3Sx instead if they like) From grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk Mon Feb 21 10:58:10 2005 From: grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Mon Feb 21 18:36:05 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum References: <4215A7C5.4080000@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000201c5183b$7f13ac60$f16a893e@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] **************************** "My faith in the people governing is, on the whole, infinitesimal; my faith in The People governed is, on the whole, illimitable." ~ Charles Dickens. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman De Wael" To: "blml" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Obiter dictum > Well, of course you can all start turning my words > around and around. Yes, I may have suggested that > describing what is in the hand is a good idea. If only > for the reason that if you know what is in partner's > hand, it may well be a good idea to tell your opponents > as well. > > But certainly this is not a priority. The priority, in the > cases such as we are discussing, is explaining partner's > bidding in such a way as not to reveal to him that he > has misinterpreted your bid. Of course that corresponds > to telling opponents what partner's intentions were with > his bid (rather than the actual partnership meaning), and > presumably this corresponds to his hand. But don't get > the priorities wrong, please. < +=+ I am of an old-fashioned opinion that the *first* priority is to do as the laws require. They appear to say that you should explain the partnership agreement as to the meaning of partner's call. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Mon Feb 21 19:02:31 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Mon Feb 21 19:02:43 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Sven Pran" > If you "know" there is just one trump out and that trump is the highest one > left then it doesn't matter which trump you play to get rid of that last > one. > > Thus there is nothing "irrational" about playing your smallest trump unless > you believe your own trump is the highest one left in the play. My contention -- despite Sven and the EBU white book, quoted in another message -- is that "irrational" does not depend on what you know or think you know about the outstanding cards. From fgcezq at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 19:09:58 2005 From: fgcezq at yahoo.com (Hope Hays) Date: Mon Feb 21 19:07:06 2005 Subject: [blml] Vicoodin and Viaggra Heree 2D Message-ID: <28346143144732.R37422@tilt.noc.bandwidth.gr> Look at this of-fers: Vi-codinn - 225.00 (90 pi-lls) Hydro-codonee - 297.00 (90 pi=lls) Valliuum - 153.00 (90 pi-lls) Viagraa - 270.00 (90 pi-lls) Cia-llis - 348.00 (90 pi-lls) Codeinne - 126.00 (90 pi-lls) Xa-naax - 171.00 (90 pi-lls) All orderrs are delivered by Fedex with full tracking 24/7. Satisfactiionnss guaaranteeed... http://fuoje43.com/_fd5977142df59d3662baa654773c6a8e/ This is 1 -time mailing. N0-re m0val are re'qui-red aklfriOWydvkbltV9Z3laLGtIOHYj6iTsAgzjV0 From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Mon Feb 21 19:07:54 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Mon Feb 21 19:08:06 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <200502211733.j1LHXv3j006819@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502211733.j1LHXv3j006819@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421A237A.9060409@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au > As TD (except when running a supervised play session) I do not > give *prior* advice to a player that inadvertently revoking has > adverse consequences. [related examples snipped] Do you mean that after an established revoke, you would not advise the revoker that the penalty will depend on whether or not he wins a trick in the revoke suit? Is Richard's approach the approved practice elsewhere? Does it accord with L815C? Or "all matters" in L9B2? From schoderb at msn.com Mon Feb 21 19:21:16 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Mon Feb 21 19:22:16 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Thank you Steve. Another voice in the wilderness that understands the meaning of a relatively simple English word -- would that there were more of you. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Willner" To: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:02 PM Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes > > From: "Sven Pran" > > If you "know" there is just one trump out and that trump is the highest > > one > > left then it doesn't matter which trump you play to get rid of that last > > one. > > > > Thus there is nothing "irrational" about playing your smallest trump > > unless > > you believe your own trump is the highest one left in the play. > > My contention -- despite Sven and the EBU white book, quoted in another > message -- is that "irrational" does not depend on what you know or > think you know about the outstanding cards. > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Mon Feb 21 20:19:37 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Mon Feb 21 20:25:07 2005 Subject: [blml] A Short History of Texas References: Message-ID: <012001c5184b$077acf70$e7f7f0c3@LNV> > ton: > > >Could you tell me what the additional transmitted UI for East > >was? I have never understood this problem. > > Richard: > > What happened at the table -> > > WEST EAST > 1NT 4H(1) > 4S(2) 5H(3) > Pass > > (1) Quicker than normal tempo, demonstrably suggesting that > East might have forgotten their Texas convention. > (2) Blackwood was a logical alternative, but then it would be > impossible to confirm whether or not East had forgotten > their Texas convention. > (3) Slower than normal tempo, confirming that East had indeed > forgotten their Texas convention. Thanks, without this kind of information there is no case at all. ton From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 20:24:57 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 20:26:43 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <421A237A.9060409@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502211733.j1LHXv3j006819@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421A237A.9060409@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Steve Willner wrote >> From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au >> As TD (except when running a supervised play session) I do not >> give *prior* advice to a player that inadvertently revoking has >> adverse consequences. >[related examples snipped] > >Do you mean that after an established revoke, you would not advise the >revoker that the penalty will depend on whether or not he wins a trick >in the revoke suit? > >Is Richard's approach the approved practice elsewhere? Does it accord >with L815C? Or "all matters" in L9B2? When someone has revoked and the TD is called he is required by Law to explain the consequences. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 20:28:49 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 20:30:04 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Steve Willner wrote >> From: "Sven Pran" >> If you "know" there is just one trump out and that trump is the highest one >> left then it doesn't matter which trump you play to get rid of that last >> one. >> Thus there is nothing "irrational" about playing your smallest trump >>unless >> you believe your own trump is the highest one left in the play. > >My contention -- despite Sven and the EBU white book, quoted in another >message -- is that "irrational" does not depend on what you know or >think you know about the outstanding cards. Let me just get this clear. If you hold AJ2 opposite void you are saying one of two possibilities exist: Either [a1] It is irrational to play the two *knowing* that there are no other cards left in this suit, and [a2] It is irrational to play the two *knowing* that there are other cards left in this suit. Or [b1] It is not irrational to play the two *knowing* that there are no other cards left in this suit, and [b2] It is not irrational to play the two *knowing* that there are other cards left in this suit. That really does not fit in with any definition I have ever seen of irrational, here or elsewhere. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 21 20:30:09 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 21 20:32:04 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <9JUwOSkBbjGCFwV0@blakjak.demon.co.uk> WILLIAM SCHODER wrote >Thank you Steve. Another voice in the wilderness that understands the >meaning of a relatively simple English word -- would that there were more of >you. Unfortunately, Kojak, on this occasion his understanding of irrational does not seem to fit in with any known meaning of it. Perhaps he does not mean exactly what he says. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Steve Willner" >To: >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:02 PM >Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes > > >> > From: "Sven Pran" >> > If you "know" there is just one trump out and that trump is the highest >> > one >> > left then it doesn't matter which trump you play to get rid of that last >> > one. >> > >> > Thus there is nothing "irrational" about playing your smallest trump >> > unless >> > you believe your own trump is the highest one left in the play. >> >> My contention -- despite Sven and the EBU white book, quoted in another >> message -- is that "irrational" does not depend on what you know or >> think you know about the outstanding cards. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blml mailing list >> blml@amsterdamned.org >> http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From toddz at att.net Mon Feb 21 21:05:47 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Mon Feb 21 21:06:08 2005 Subject: [blml] A revoke that does not cost In-Reply-To: <4219DCF2.4000102@hdw.be> References: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> <4219C7D1.4010601@att.net> <4219DCF2.4000102@hdw.be> Message-ID: <421A3F1B.2060001@att.net> Herman De Wael wrote: > A rare phenomenon is the revoke that wins 3 tricks, and where only > equity is restored. So the "frequently" above is not very correct. A revoke needs to gain only 2 tricks as that's the maximum penalty before 64C is called into play. I think this is an example of the 1997 change of revoke laws to punish 1-trick-gaining revokes only 1 trick. -Todd From schoderb at msn.com Mon Feb 21 22:19:00 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Mon Feb 21 22:19:17 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu><421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> <9JUwOSkBbjGCFwV0@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: I continue to read Steve's understanding to be that rational (or irrational) has nothing to do with the continua of careless or inferior, experienced or novice, class of player, but stands alone and away from them by it's relation to sanity. I object to it being included as some sort of level of carelessness, or inferiority, and remain opposed to the removal of the comma in the present footnote, or the WBFLC interpretation which effectively does so. I was there when it (the comma) was put there, and continue to believe it belongs there, notwithstanding the tortured semantics arguments that I've heard and read otherwise. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Stevenson" To: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes > WILLIAM SCHODER wrote > >Thank you Steve. Another voice in the wilderness that understands the > >meaning of a relatively simple English word -- would that there were more > >of > >you. > > Unfortunately, Kojak, on this occasion his understanding of irrational > does not seem to fit in with any known meaning of it. Perhaps he does > not mean exactly what he says. > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Steve Willner" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:02 PM > >Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes > > > > > >> > From: "Sven Pran" > >> > If you "know" there is just one trump out and that trump is the > >> > highest > >> > one > >> > left then it doesn't matter which trump you play to get rid of that > >> > last > >> > one. > >> > > >> > Thus there is nothing "irrational" about playing your smallest trump > >> > unless > >> > you believe your own trump is the highest one left in the play. > >> > >> My contention -- despite Sven and the EBU white book, quoted in another > >> message -- is that "irrational" does not depend on what you know or > >> think you know about the outstanding cards. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blml mailing list > >> blml@amsterdamned.org > >> http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >blml mailing list > >blml@amsterdamned.org > >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- > David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ > Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ > ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= > Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From ehaa at starpower.net Mon Feb 21 22:43:34 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Mon Feb 21 22:40:41 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221163317.02a8eb00@pop.starpower.net> At 05:32 PM 2/20/05, John wrote: >In article , Koen Grauwels > writes > >This happened yesterday: > >Declarer plays 4S and already lost 3 tricks. > >His last cards are spades: 753 > >I have spade 6 and 2 other cards. > >Declarer claims 2 of the last 3 tricks thinking that I have the highest > >spade. He does not say what he will play first. > >After the claim he realises that he has the highest spades and we > give him > >the contract. > >(At the end this did not seem to be bad for us. It was a Swiss > movement and > >after this we had to play at the lowest table. Next 3 rounds we > scored very > >high against weaker opps) > > > >But what do you rule. > >Down 1 seems logic because play of small spades is likely > alternative if he > >thinks that the highest spade is still out? > >I think your intuitive feel for this is correct. The test is "careless >but not irrational". A small trump is careless but not irrational. The ACBL has issued a contrary guideline, under which when a claimer is down to a single suit, and hasn't indicated otherwise, it is to be deemed irrational for him to play the suit other than from the top down. A North American TD would award the remaining tricks to declarer. This has come up on BLML before, and has been the subject of vigorous debate, from which my own conclusion is that NCBOs would be well-advised to follow the ACBL by having a guideline on the issue, whichever way they choose to go. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Mon Feb 21 22:53:16 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Mon Feb 21 22:49:07 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: References: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221164648.02b36120@pop.starpower.net> At 06:32 PM 2/20/05, David wrote: >rjh wrote > >>In practice, the Laws are so poorly written that it is impossible for >>the average club player and the average club TD to fully understand the >>nuances of required procedures after generation of UI. > > Law books are not tutorials. The way to teach TDs how to apply UI > Laws is not by writing better Law books: it is by training and > training manuals. Things must be very different in the UK. In the US, every director, from the folks who direct the once-a-week ladies' afternoon games to the NABC DICs owns a copy of TFLB. But there are a lot more of the former than the latter, and only a relatively small minority of the total, at all levels, have had formal training or have ever read a training manual. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Mon Feb 21 23:15:30 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Mon Feb 21 23:11:23 2005 Subject: [blml] A revoke that does not cost In-Reply-To: <007501c51811$95a052f0$609468d5@James> References: <4219A180.80807@hdw.be> <007501c51811$95a052f0$609468d5@James> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221170052.02a8f050@pop.starpower.net> At 07:33 AM 2/21/05, GUTHRIE wrote: >[Herman De Wael] > > > We all know the rule: if you gain a trick by revoking, > > you usually give 2 back; if the revoke does not win, > > you only have to give one back, so most revokes end up > > costing you one trick. > > Yesterday a young lady performed the following trick > > - and I'm certain it was unintentional: > > Dummy: S- H:xx D:Ax C:? > > dECLARER: S:9 H:X D:XX C:? > > Playing in hearts, opponent led a spade, which she > > ruffed, discarding a diamond from hand. Then she played > > DA and ruffed a diamond, after which she ruffed a spade. > > So she made those four tricks and she had revoked. But > > she neither won the revoke trick (not in hand anyway) > > nor a trick with the spade nine (she ruffed that one) > > so there is only one penalty trick. And L64C is satisfied > > also (all opponent's trums are out) because she would > > always make 3 of those four tricks. Yet if the opponents > > don't start asking "why did you play in double ruff?", > > the revoke gets undetected and she's up one trick. > > Nice trick or what? > >[Nigel] >Herman has produced another example to show why so-called >"equity" laws are unfair. Many infractions go undetected, >unreported, or unreprimanded. In the long run, offenders are >rewarded. > >For example, revoke laws used to be harsher, not just to >deter the offender, but also as a token partial redress for >past times when the victim failed to detect revokes against >him. > >In theory, "Equity" laws might be justifiable if infractions >were always detected. IMO, in real life, it is a poor taste >practical joke on players to pretend that procedural >penalties and the like can compensate for basically lax >laws. Perhaps Herman and Nigel are overlooking the fact that any bad guy trying to cheat will surely do so in ways that involve doing something less likely to be noticed by an opponent than a revoke, making the possibility of an almost-surely innocent offender failing to suffer substantive punishment for revoking decidedly a non-problem. I tend to be in the camp that believes that overt cheats should be dealt with in other ways than by making the laws regarding procedural violations punitive in nature, particularly when those laws are specifically written to enable, indeed encourage, TDs/Acs to apply them without making any determination as to the motive behind the violation. But were I in the other camp, I would surely worry more about the fuzzier areas of the laws (i.e. UI or MI) than about players who would try to cheat by revoking intentionally. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 21 23:11:44 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 21 23:11:58 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221163317.02a8eb00@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <000401c51862$543fdbe0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Eric Landau ................ > The ACBL has issued a contrary guideline, under which when a claimer is > down to a single suit, and hasn't indicated otherwise, it is to be > deemed irrational for him to play the suit other than from the top > down. A North American TD would award the remaining tricks to declarer. > > This has come up on BLML before, and has been the subject of vigorous > debate, from which my own conclusion is that NCBOs would be > well-advised to follow the ACBL by having a guideline on the issue, > whichever way they choose to go. The guideline should be clear (and is indeed clear for instance in Norway): When the claimer apparently believes (according to his claim statement) that the sequence in which he plays his remaining cards is immaterial but in fact does matter then he shall be deemed to play his cards in a sequence that is most beneficial to his opponents. e.g.: When he apparently believes that all his cards are high then there is no sequence of play that can be considered "irrational" because there should be no sequence that fails. Sven From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 21 23:16:02 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 21 23:16:24 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Stevenson asserted: [snip] >talking as though the extreme situations are >the norm helps no-one. [snip] Richard Hills asserts: What gets rewarded is what gets done. If the perpetrators of extreme slow play are rewarded by the delay of the next round (with the rest of the field being punished by having an extreme wait), then unduly slow players have little incentive to stop being unduly slow. In those circumstances, what *used to be* an extreme situation *becomes* the norm. For a real-world example of an extreme situation becoming the norm, due to extreme actions being rewarded by Slobodan Milosevic, compare Bosnian social life in the 1980s with Bosnian social life in the 1990s. If, however, unduly slow players have one of their partially completed boards cancelled, then they no longer have an incentive to be unduly slow. For example: The Canberra Bridge Club has so many members that it flights its events by days of the week. The "expert" sessions at the Canberra Bridge Club are on Monday and Thursday nights. At those "expert" sessions, the most popular events are Swiss Teams and Swiss Butler Pairs, with two or three matches per evening. The nature of a Swiss is that an unduly slow pair does not merely delay one table, but that unduly slow pair delays the entire field, as the Swiss draw for the next round cannot be arranged until all matches have been scored. The CTD therefore imposes strict time limits via a highly-visible countdown timer on the wall. After the highly-audible alarm rings when the countdown timer reaches 3 minutes to go, the CTD reminds players that partially completed boards may be concluded, but no new boards may be started. Initially, some unduly slow players tested the CTD by starting a new board with only 1 or 2 minutes to go. But the CTD had no hesitation in cancelling those partially completed boards. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From ehaa at starpower.net Mon Feb 21 23:45:09 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Mon Feb 21 23:41:00 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> At 08:59 AM 2/21/05, Herman wrote: >An old problem resurfaced yesterday. > >The reply to 4NT Blackwood is 5H, and before the lead, they as what 5H >means. The reply is "2 aces". Opening leader asks "of 5?" and "without >the queen of trumps?", to which the replies are positive (many people >play it that way). > >Declarer now finesses leader's partner for the trump queen and of >course the one who has asked about her, has her himself. > >They don't call the TD, but do badger me about it afterwards. > >They don't seem to understand that if we rule against this gentlemen, >the lovely lady who has given the incomplete reply has now a potential >for 100% finding the queen: if either opponent asks, they will either >find the queen or get it back from the Director. > >Which is why I tell them that I (and I know I'm almost alone in this) >will NOT reward them this way and leave the queen with opponents. > >Which leads to a double ploy: Now the one who has the queen, seeing me >as TD, has a 100% play for the setting trick: whenever they give an >incomplete answer, just ask for the completion and hope they will fall >for the bait, since this TD will no longer protect them. > >Now from those 2 evils, I still choose the one in which the >non-offenders are better off. I have told my lovely ladies that this >is a non-issue. Next time simply say "2/5 without trump queen" and >none of this happens. > >But should we allow the opponents to keep using their trick whenever >the chance arises? > >I for one always ask, preferably without checking if I have the queen >or not. When making a L73F2 ruling on the ploy Herman describes, I tend to be sensitive to the exact wording of the question. I will, for example, award redress if a player holding the queen asks, "Does it promise the queen of trump?" but will not if he asks, "Does it deny the queen of trump?". The first is misleading, as the asker "knows" the answer -- I will not except the excuse of "just checking to see if they were having a mixup" -- while the second is legitimate, as the asker may very well want to know whether the opponents knew that the queen when missing when they decided on the level of the contract -- if not, defensive strategies that hope to take the setting trick with the queen of trump become significantly more attractive. Personally, I recommend asking, "Does it say anything about the queen of trumps?" Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From svenpran at online.no Mon Feb 21 23:41:35 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon Feb 21 23:41:49 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c51866$7fdf5240$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of richard.hills@immi.gov.au ............. > > The CTD therefore imposes strict time limits > via a highly-visible countdown timer on the > wall. After the highly-audible alarm rings > when the countdown timer reaches 3 minutes to > go, the CTD reminds players that partially > completed boards may be concluded, but no new > boards may be started. > > Initially, some unduly slow players tested the > CTD by starting a new board with only 1 or 2 > minutes to go. But the CTD had no hesitation > in cancelling those partially completed > boards. There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in violation of regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) should be cancelled and the offenders should be penalized for disobeying such instructions/regulation. The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late play of boards on which play was started legally. Sven From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 21 23:51:32 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 21 23:51:52 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <421A237A.9060409@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Richard Hills asserted: >>As TD (except when running a supervised play session) I do not >>give *prior* advice to a player that inadvertently revoking has >>adverse consequences. [related examples snipped] Steve Willner asked: >Do you mean that after an established revoke, [related questions snipped] Richard Hills notes: "After" does not mean "prior" in my dictionary. :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From webmaster at bridgefederation.ch Tue Feb 22 01:04:32 2005 From: webmaster at bridgefederation.ch (Yvan Calame) Date: Tue Feb 22 01:04:59 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <421A7710.20600@bridgefederation.ch> [...] >"without the queen of trumps?" [...] >"Does it promise the queen of trump?" [...] >"Does it deny the queen of trump?" [...] >"Does it say anything about the queen of trumps?" All the same, can add 10 different wordings, same question. yvan From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 01:07:17 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 01:07:35 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000401c516d5$700d92b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: On Saturday, Feb 19, 2005, at 17:50 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > Actually if players ignored my warning to the extent that they still > had not completed > play some five or maybe ten minutes after scheduled time I would > probably > disqualify them right away. So you would tell players, in effect, "look, just throw cards and get it over with"? Law 81 imposes a duty on the director to "insure the orderly progress of the game". Law 12 allows the director to award an artificial adjusted score "if no rectification can be made that will permit normal play of the board". Law 8 says that "In general, a round ends when the Director gives the signal for the start of the following round; but if any table has not completed play by that time, the round continues for that table until there has been a progression of players". Law 90 allows the Director to penalize contestants for slow play or for failure to follow his instructions. The Laws define the beginning and end of the auction period, and the beginning of the play period. They do not define the end of the play period. Some have argued that Law 8 precludes the TD from directing players to abandon a hand in play. But it doesn't. Nothing in Law 8 says the TD cannot order the players to progress to the next round, and Law 81 specifically empowers him to "insure the orderly progression of the game". Law 12 does not define "normal play of the board", but it seems reasonable that a late play would be "normal play". Certainly so if the players have not started the board. I would think "orderly progression" means that players should move for the next round within a minute or two, at most, of the director calling the round (problematic in club games here, where the director often *doesn't* call the round). All of the above leads me to conclude: 1. The director has a duty to see the game is not delayed by "unduly slow play" of one or more contestants. 2. The director has the power to order players to progress *even* if they are in the middle of a hand. 3. The director has both the duty and the power to penalize contestants for slow play or for failure to follow the director's instructions. 4. The director should exercise the power in item 2 when necessary to comply with his duty in item 1. 5. The director should exercise the power in item 3 when violations are egregious (btw, "egregious" is more than just "flagrant" - it includes "conspicuous" or "obvious" as well). 6. For a director to allow play to continue on a hand for "five or ten minutes" after the round has been called is director error. Aside: I have seen the following occur in club games here: TD calls the round; a player pulls her cards from the last (unplayed) board, saying "maybe she won't catch us". If I were a moving player at this table, I would move. If I were a stationary player, I would refuse to start this board (and would call the TD if anyone insisted). If I were a TD, and I did catch a player doing this, I would award a very stiff procedural penalty - and I would explain exactly *why* I was doing so. From gesta at tiscali.co.uk Tue Feb 22 01:07:39 2005 From: gesta at tiscali.co.uk (Grattan) Date: Tue Feb 22 01:10:59 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000001c51873$0856f770$54c9403e@Mildred> Grattan Endicott To: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 6:02 PM Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes >> From: "Sven Pran" >> If you "know" there is just one trump out and that >> trump is the highest one left then it doesn't matter >> which trump you play to get rid of that last one. >> >> Thus there is nothing "irrational" about playing > > your smallest trump unless you believe your own > > trump is the highest one left in the play. > > My contention -- despite Sven and the EBU white > book, quoted in another message -- is that "irrational" > does not depend on what you know or think you > know about the outstanding cards. > +=+ If you know there is just one trump out, if you have more than one trump it seems lunatic to me to play any but your highest trump when leading the suit, regardless of what you believe about the trump out against you. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 01:20:45 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 01:21:02 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9845CF12-8467-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 08:45 US/Eastern, David Stevenson wrote: > Right. Now if someone takes fifteen minutes to play a board he will > get warned, PPs, possibly lose a later board, but we do not take the > board away If someone takes fifteen minutes to play the first board of a two board (nominally fifteen minute) round. I would tell them to move for the next round, and give them a late play on the other board if possible. If someone takes fifteen minutes to play an early board of a three (or more) board round, such that they may not get to the *last* board in a timely manner, I would tell them to move for the next round if, at the time I call the move, they have not started the last board. If they *have* started the last board, I would give them perhaps 3 minutes, at most, after I have called the round, to finish the board. If they do not finish it in that time, I would cancel it, using Law 12A2. If it is not usual for this contestant to be slow, and I catch the situation before I call the round, I might delay the call for a minute or two (but no more). But IMO the director's duty to insure the orderly progress of the game overrides a contestant's right to finish a board he has started. Some clubs here have the constraint that they must be out of the venue by a certain time. Where slow play would prohibit compliance with this constraint without curtailing the movement, I would be more inclined to deal harshly with transgressors, as the problem affects *all* the players. From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 01:25:01 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 01:25:19 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000501c51866$7fdf5240$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 17:41 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in violation > of > regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) should be cancelled and > the > offenders should be penalized for disobeying such > instructions/regulation. > > The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late play of > boards on which play was started legally. Then it becomes incumbent on a director, even without a supporting SO regulation, to announce at an appropriate time (Canberra's 3 minutes prior to the nominal end of the round seems reasonable) to announce, *each and every round*, that no new boards may be started. This, it seems to me, is the only way, in the face of slow players, to comply with the director's duty to insure the orderly progress of the game. From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 01:27:19 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 01:27:36 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <83530354-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Saturday, Feb 19, 2005, at 19:58 US/Eastern, Karel wrote: > E/W had no notes to support their claims. > > comments ? What were their claims? From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 01:28:15 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 01:28:33 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sunday, Feb 20, 2005, at 09:13 US/Eastern, Laval Dubreuil wrote: > But anyway. In ACBL land, 2NT after a weak two opening, > is not alertable when forcing (enquiring or not). The "Microsoft" answer. What do Irish regulations say? From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 01:34:20 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 01:34:38 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural In-Reply-To: <2drcruAHtQGCFwkV@asimere.com> Message-ID: <7E372429-8469-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Sunday, Feb 20, 2005, at 17:12 US/Eastern, John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > I just don't expect 2NT to be natural. It's inconceivable. To suggest a > 6-4 with 3 controls is a minimum is like suggesting Reagan was a > democrat. He was, until he switched parties in 1950. As for "inconceivable", Eric would seem to disagree. So do I. :-) From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 02:01:10 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:01:27 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <421912FC.2060900@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <3D6317F6-846D-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Sunday, Feb 20, 2005, at 17:45 US/Eastern, Steve Willner wrote: >> From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au >> All the TD needs to say is, >> "If either side thinks, at the end of play, that the non-hesitating >> side may have been damaged as a result of the hesitation, then please >> call me back." > > So you neither investigate nor rule as to whether a break in tempo > existed? Nor advise the partner of the alleged tempo-breaker that his > actions may be restricted? > > > Under the current "no-fault" provisions of Law 16, *why* an > > (alleged) hesitator (allegedly) hesitated is irrelevant. > > No doubt everyone agrees with this. > > I think Anne's point was that the alleged hesitator's hand could > provide useful evidence as to whether there had been a hesitation or > not. I'm curious what others think about her proposition. It seems to me that when called to the table to adjudicate an alleged irregularity, the TD has two potentially conflicting imperatives: he must ascertain the facts, and he must avoid providing extraneous information. Which governs? Law 85 seems clear to me: if the facts are agreed (presumably this means, but the players involved) then the TD rules IAW Law 84. If the facts are not agreed, then either (a) when he is satisfied that he has ascertained the facts, he rules IAW Law 84. If not, he makes a ruling that will permit play to continue, and notifies the players of their right to appeal. Now, Law 84A tells the director to tell the players to proceed with the auction and play if the laws provide no penalty, and there is no reason for him to exercise his discretionary powers. In the event of a break in tempo, a player is required by law 16B to call the director "forthwith" if he believes that an opponent has chosen an action suggested by the BIT. That law *specifically* tells the director to "require the auction and play to continue" and "stand ready to award an adjusted score if" he believes an infraction (the choice of such action, *NOT* the BIT) resulted in damage. All this says to me that the determination whether there really was a BIT is irrelevant *at the time of the TD call*. Nonetheless, the NOS have a right to know the provisions of Law 16B (see Law 9B2). So, if the players all agree there was a BIT, rule IAW with Law 84 and Law 16 - and *read* Law 16B to the players. If they do not agree, and the TD decides on the evidence gathered (*without* looking at hands, which may convey UI) that there was a BIT, ditto. And if they do not agree, and the TD is not sure of the facts, he *still* rules the same way. After the hand, he may gather more evidence, if he wishes. "Stand ready" does not, to me, imply that the TD should say "call me back if you feel damaged". Perhaps the way the hand is subsequently bid and played will provide evidence one way or 'tother. The TD should be there to see that. When called for a BIT, the question should be "was there a BIT?" Appropriate supporting questions: "what is this player's normal tempo?" "what was his *actual* tempo". The question whether a BIT was undue must, IMO, wait until play of the hand is completed. From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 02:02:11 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:04:01 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <000401c516d5$700d92b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Ed Reppert wrote >Aside: I have seen the following occur in club games here: TD calls the >round; a player pulls her cards from the last (unplayed) board, saying >"maybe she won't catch us". If I were a moving player at this table, I >would move. If I were a stationary player, I would refuse to start this >board (and would call the TD if anyone insisted). If I were a TD, and I >did catch a player doing this, I would award a very stiff procedural >penalty - and I would explain exactly *why* I was doing so. In a National event I announced "no more boards to be started". A certain well-known pillock moved quickly to the next table, grabbed a board, came back, snuck it on the table, and started play. So I gave both sides a 2 VP penalty. He told me [no, I am not joking] that I was loathed all over Australia because of my directing there: that no-one in England had any time for me whatever: that it was known that I only had success at the game because of my lousy ethics: that I had no understanding of the game at all: that I was by far the worst EBU TD: that everyone thought so. The DIC reduced the PP to 0.5 VP on the request of the opponents. They apologised for the pillock's behaviour - hardly their fault - and the pillock's partner brought me a box of chocolates next day [!!!]. I think he was displeased at not being allowed to play a board after being told not to! :) -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 02:03:34 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:05:22 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <9845CF12-8467-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <9845CF12-8467-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: Ed Reppert wrote > >On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 08:45 US/Eastern, David Stevenson wrote: > >> Right. Now if someone takes fifteen minutes to play a board he will >>get warned, PPs, possibly lose a later board, but we do not take the >>board away > >If someone takes fifteen minutes to play the first board of a two board >(nominally fifteen minute) round. I would tell them to move for the >next round, and give them a late play on the other board if possible. >If someone takes fifteen minutes to play an early board of a three (or >more) board round, such that they may not get to the *last* board in a >timely manner, I would tell them to move for the next round if, at the >time I call the move, they have not started the last board. If they >*have* started the last board, I would give them perhaps 3 minutes, at >most, after I have called the round, to finish the board. If they do >not finish it in that time, I would cancel it, using Law 12A2. If it is >not usual for this contestant to be slow, and I catch the situation >before I call the round, I might delay the call for a minute or two >(but no more). But IMO the director's duty to insure the orderly >progress of the game overrides a contestant's right to finish a board >he has started. > >Some clubs here have the constraint that they must be out of the venue >by a certain time. Where slow play would prohibit compliance with this >constraint without curtailing the movement, I would be more inclined to >deal harshly with transgressors, as the problem affects *all* the players. I do not expect our rule to never cancel a board to affect the evening as a whole, and it never does. We are talking one board here, folks. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 02:06:15 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:08:02 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <000501c51866$7fdf5240$6900a8c0@WINXP> <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: Ed Reppert wrote > >On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 17:41 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > >> There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in violation >>of >> regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) should be cancelled and >>the >> offenders should be penalized for disobeying such >>instructions/regulation. >> >> The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late play of >> boards on which play was started legally. > >Then it becomes incumbent on a director, even without a supporting SO >regulation, to announce at an appropriate time (Canberra's 3 minutes >prior to the nominal end of the round seems reasonable) to announce, >*each and every round*, that no new boards may be started. This, it >seems to me, is the only way, in the face of slow players, to comply >with the director's duty to insure the orderly progress of the game. While reasonable it is certainly not the only way. Taking unplayed bards away from them works well, especially when you give them Ave- and their opponents Ave+. Continuous PPs will discourage them. Taking away partly completed boards is so unnecessary to stop slow play. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 02:07:26 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:08:41 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221164648.02b36120@pop.starpower.net> References: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221164648.02b36120@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: Eric Landau wrote >At 06:32 PM 2/20/05, David wrote: > >>rjh wrote >> >>>In practice, the Laws are so poorly written that it is impossible for >>>the average club player and the average club TD to fully understand the >>>nuances of required procedures after generation of UI. >> >> Law books are not tutorials. The way to teach TDs how to apply UI >>Laws is not by writing better Law books: it is by training and >>training manuals. > >Things must be very different in the UK. In the US, every director, >from the folks who direct the once-a-week ladies' afternoon games to >the NABC DICs owns a copy of TFLB. But there are a lot more of the >former than the latter, and only a relatively small minority of the >total, at all levels, have had formal training or have ever read a >training manual. How does it follow from these facts that Law books are tutorials or that they are a reasonable way to teach TDs? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 02:09:02 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:10:41 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> <9JUwOSkBbjGCFwV0@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <5wfhwMsuYoGCFwGw@blakjak.demon.co.uk> WILLIAM SCHODER wrote >I continue to read Steve's understanding to be that rational (or >irrational) has nothing to do with the continua of careless or inferior, >experienced or novice, class of player, but stands alone and away from them >by it's relation to sanity. I object to it being included as some sort of >level of carelessness, or inferiority, and remain opposed to the removal of >the comma in the present footnote, or the WBFLC interpretation which >effectively does so. I was there when it (the comma) was put there, >and continue to believe it belongs there, notwithstanding the tortured >semantics arguments that I've heard and read otherwise. Well, Kojak, feel free to read it as that, but it is definitely not what he said. He said that irrationality was nothing to with the outstanding cards - and I take issue with that. >> >> My contention -- despite Sven and the EBU white book, quoted in another >> >> message -- is that "irrational" does not depend on what you know or >> >> think you know about the outstanding cards. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 02:12:27 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:12:44 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 17:45 US/Eastern, Eric Landau wrote: > Personally, I recommend asking, "Does it say anything about the queen > of trumps?" I agree with Sven. So, I think, do the ACBL alert regulations and Law 20. I would ask "What are we entitled to know from your auction?" and perhaps "Is there anything else?" If it later turns out that somebody forget to mention something germane, that's *their* problem. It's not my job to ensure opponents know what they're supposed to do. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 22 02:46:59 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:47:21 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000101c51581$773195f0$6900a8c0@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Sven Pran: [snip] >so long as it can be finished "in a normal way" although overdue. [snip] Richard Hills: That is the nub of our disagreement. In my opinion, it is possible that the Law 90B2 "unduly slow play" infraction may prevent a board finishing "in a normal way". In my opinion, "overdue" is not always a subset of "normal". Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From grabiner at alumni.princeton.edu Tue Feb 22 02:50:37 2005 From: grabiner at alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Tue Feb 22 02:50:49 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> At 05:45 PM 2/21/2005, Eric Landau wrote: >At 08:59 AM 2/21/05, Herman wrote: > >>An old problem resurfaced yesterday. >> >>The reply to 4NT Blackwood is 5H, and before the lead, they as what 5H >>means. The reply is "2 aces". Opening leader asks "of 5?" and "without >>the queen of trumps?", to which the replies are positive (many people >>play it that way). >> >>Declarer now finesses leader's partner for the trump queen and of course >>the one who has asked about her, has her himself. >> >>They don't call the TD, but do badger me about it afterwards. >> >>They don't seem to understand that if we rule against this gentlemen, the >>lovely lady who has given the incomplete reply has now a potential for >>100% finding the queen: if either opponent asks, they will either find >>the queen or get it back from the Director. >> >>Which is why I tell them that I (and I know I'm almost alone in this) >>will NOT reward them this way and leave the queen with opponents. >> >>Which leads to a double ploy: Now the one who has the queen, seeing me as >>TD, has a 100% play for the setting trick: whenever they give an >>incomplete answer, just ask for the completion and hope they will fall >>for the bait, since this TD will no longer protect them. >> >>Now from those 2 evils, I still choose the one in which the non-offenders >>are better off. I have told my lovely ladies that this is a non-issue. >>Next time simply say "2/5 without trump queen" and none of this happens. >> >>But should we allow the opponents to keep using their trick whenever the >>chance arises? >> >>I for one always ask, preferably without checking if I have the queen or not. > >When making a L73F2 ruling on the ploy Herman describes, I tend to be >sensitive to the exact wording of the question. I will, for example, >award redress if a player holding the queen asks, "Does it promise the >queen of trump?" but will not if he asks, "Does it deny the queen of >trump?". The first is misleading, as the asker "knows" the answer -- I >will not except the excuse of "just checking to see if they were having a >mixup" -- while the second is legitimate, as the asker may very well want >to know whether the opponents knew that the queen when missing when they >decided on the level of the contract -- if not, defensive strategies that >hope to take the setting trick with the queen of trump become >significantly more attractive. > >Personally, I recommend asking, "Does it say anything about the queen of >trumps?" I don't like the issue with specific wording, because the wording tends to be determined by the bid. I would expect a player to ask about 5H, "Does it deny the queen of trump?" and about 5S, "Does it show the queen of trump?" since those are the normal meanings. In addition, a question about a missing queen can be legitimate, as many players show a trump queen they do not hold if there is a guaranteed 10-card trump fit. From schoderb at msn.com Tue Feb 22 02:59:30 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Tue Feb 22 03:00:20 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be><6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I personally think that when you ask a question you should have thought out the ramifications of the question and answer. Having the queen in my hand seems to me to be either stupid, information to my partner when the answer is given, or inexcusable. I don't believe we even played this game years ago with the wallets and guns on the table we would abide with this kind of crap. Babies who were innocent quickly learned innocent has its price. There is , in my narrow mind, no reason to ask about the Queen WHEN LOOKING AT IT, other than to get an edge. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J. Grabiner" To: "Bridge Laws Discussion List" Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Queen of trumps? > At 05:45 PM 2/21/2005, Eric Landau wrote: > >At 08:59 AM 2/21/05, Herman wrote: > > > >>An old problem resurfaced yesterday. > >> > >>The reply to 4NT Blackwood is 5H, and before the lead, they as what 5H > >>means. The reply is "2 aces". Opening leader asks "of 5?" and "without > >>the queen of trumps?", to which the replies are positive (many people > >>play it that way). > >> > >>Declarer now finesses leader's partner for the trump queen and of course > >>the one who has asked about her, has her himself. > >> > >>They don't call the TD, but do badger me about it afterwards. > >> > >>They don't seem to understand that if we rule against this gentlemen, > >>the > >>lovely lady who has given the incomplete reply has now a potential for > >>100% finding the queen: if either opponent asks, they will either find > >>the queen or get it back from the Director. > >> > >>Which is why I tell them that I (and I know I'm almost alone in this) > >>will NOT reward them this way and leave the queen with opponents. > >> > >>Which leads to a double ploy: Now the one who has the queen, seeing me > >>as > >>TD, has a 100% play for the setting trick: whenever they give an > >>incomplete answer, just ask for the completion and hope they will fall > >>for the bait, since this TD will no longer protect them. > >> > >>Now from those 2 evils, I still choose the one in which the > >>non-offenders > >>are better off. I have told my lovely ladies that this is a non-issue. > >>Next time simply say "2/5 without trump queen" and none of this happens. > >> > >>But should we allow the opponents to keep using their trick whenever the > >>chance arises? > >> > >>I for one always ask, preferably without checking if I have the queen or > >>not. > > > >When making a L73F2 ruling on the ploy Herman describes, I tend to be > >sensitive to the exact wording of the question. I will, for example, > >award redress if a player holding the queen asks, "Does it promise the > >queen of trump?" but will not if he asks, "Does it deny the queen of > >trump?". The first is misleading, as the asker "knows" the answer -- I > >will not except the excuse of "just checking to see if they were having a > >mixup" -- while the second is legitimate, as the asker may very well want > >to know whether the opponents knew that the queen when missing when they > >decided on the level of the contract -- if not, defensive strategies that > >hope to take the setting trick with the queen of trump become > >significantly more attractive. > > > >Personally, I recommend asking, "Does it say anything about the queen of > >trumps?" > > I don't like the issue with specific wording, because the wording tends to > be determined by the bid. I would expect a player to ask about 5H, "Does > it deny the queen of trump?" and about 5S, "Does it show the queen of > trump?" since those are the normal meanings. > > In addition, a question about a missing queen can be legitimate, as many > players show a trump queen they do not hold if there is a guaranteed > 10-card trump fit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 22 03:14:05 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 22 03:14:30 2005 Subject: [blml] European commentaries 1992 In-Reply-To: <000601c515cf$71fda8f0$6900a8c0@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: In the thread "played 2 wrong boards", Sven Pran asked: >That is true, but does Zonal organizations; national >authorities and Directors just ignore what is issued >officially in the name of EBL (probably) because it >"is not invented here"? Richard Hills quibbles: Change "what is issued" to "what *was* issued". The 1992 European commentaries were legally binding advice in the European zone only from 1992 to 1997 (when the current edition of the Laws came into effect). Like the Mirror of Galadriel, the European commentaries are now a dangerous guide to deeds. For example, their advice on Law 71 is now erroneous in Europe, as the WBF Laws Committee has since issued updated contradictory advice. Current binding advice on the Laws are the various interpretations of the ACBL Laws Commission (in the ACBL), and the various interpretations of the WBF Laws Committee (in the rest of the world). Plus National Authorities, sponsoring organisations and TDs also may use hierarchically subordinate powers to interpret the Laws. Blml postings, including this one, have zero legally binding power to interpret the interpretation of the fabulous Law book. :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From joawlfkpmiulh at kazak.ws Tue Feb 22 03:34:37 2005 From: joawlfkpmiulh at kazak.ws (Dewitt Rosenberg) Date: Tue Feb 22 03:38:34 2005 Subject: [blml] Vicodin sale Armando In-Reply-To: <6026929.00b0a2610@designs.com> Message-ID: <524.7@melbpc.org.au> Big sale on Vicodin and other drugs. You wont find better prices anywhere! Vicodin - 90 PiIls - 178$ Viagra - 100 PilIs - 209.99$ Cialis - 90 PiIls - 324$ Ambien - 120 PilIs - 249$ Xanax - 90 PiIls - 299$ and many more... Please click below and check out our offer. http://coy.verylovtablviagra.info/in.php?aid=44 %TEXT[2-5] %TEXT[2-5] From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 22 04:03:01 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 22 04:03:22 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Stevenson: >I do not expect our rule to never cancel a board to affect the evening >as a whole, and it never does. We are talking one board here, folks. Richard Hills: The Stevensonian view that just one board in a round is relatively trivial may be appropriate to the English pairs tradition. But in the New Zealand pairs tradition, they play one-board rounds, so talking one board is talking 100% of the round, folks. In New Zealand a TD may need a Goldilocks option in their toolkit, so that the TD has an additional way to proactively address slow play. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From pssep at lineone.net Tue Feb 22 04:23:50 2005 From: pssep at lineone.net (Cecil Friend) Date: Tue Feb 22 04:23:35 2005 Subject: [blml] Inxpeneisve V@lium Message-ID: <20050222032319.4099310C@rhubarb.custard.org> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050222/d8d7b6e0/attachment.gif From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 05:00:25 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 05:00:43 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4866F272-8486-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 20:06 US/Eastern, David Stevenson wrote: > While reasonable it is certainly not the only way. Taking unplayed > bards away from them works well, especially when you give them Ave- > and their opponents Ave+. Continuous PPs will discourage them. > Taking away partly completed boards is so unnecessary to stop slow > play. I do not advocate that last. What I've suggested is that if slow play on a particular board is likely to have a significant adverse impact on the orderly progress of the game, the board be "taken away" for *that* reason. From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Tue Feb 22 05:16:52 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue Feb 22 05:17:10 2005 Subject: [blml] European commentaries 1992 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <94A3BBB6-8488-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 21:14 US/Eastern, richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > Current binding advice on the Laws are the various > interpretations of the ACBL Laws Commission (in the > ACBL), and the various interpretations of the WBF Laws > Committee (in the rest of the world). Plus National > Authorities, sponsoring organisations and TDs also may > use hierarchically subordinate powers to interpret the > Laws. Why should the ACBL have special privileges? Interesting. In the ACBL version of the Laws (http://web2.acbl.org/laws/index.htm), the ACBL is listed as a "promulgating body" along with the WBF. In the version referenced by the WBF (http://www.worldbridge.org/departments/laws/bodies.htm), the WBF is the sole promulgating body; the ACBL is listed as an "approving body", along with the EBL (and presumably other zonal authorities in the other zones). Is this a case of the 500 pound canary sitting wherever he wants? I would think that the interpretations of the WBFLC are binding everywhere, unless the WBFLC specifically says differently. IIRC, the zones and member NBOs of the WBF have, according to the constitution and by-laws, necessarily agreed to this. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 22 06:04:10 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 22 06:04:32 2005 Subject: [blml] ACBL authority (was commentaries) In-Reply-To: <94A3BBB6-8488-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Ed Reppert asked: [snip] >>Is this a case of the 500 pound canary sitting >>wherever he wants? >> >>I would think that the interpretations of the WBFLC >>are binding everywhere, unless the WBFLC specifically >>says differently. IIRC, the zones and member NBOs of >>the WBF have, according to the constitution and by- >>laws, necessarily agreed to this. Preface to the (European) edition of the Laws: [snip] >The Copyright in the Western Hemisphere and in the >Republic of the Philippines is vested in the American >Contract Bridge League. [snip] Richard Hills analogy: During the Hundred Years War, the Duke of Acquitaine owed feudal loyalty to the King of France. But the King of France and the King of England were both monarchs, owing feudal loyalty to no-one. However, the King of England was also Duke of Acquitaine. But the crown of France was also claimed by the King of England. In 1990, the ACBL (and the ABF) had a Hundred Hours War with the European Zone over a similar feudal bauble, the WBF Presidency. In my opinion, there is no point asking the question as to whether the ACBL LC or the WBF LC has the greater authority. What *is* important is that those two bodies work in harmony together. A comforting thought is that blmler Adam Wildavsky is now a member of the ACBL LC. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From ishyhrlspsq at kamminga.org Tue Feb 22 06:26:06 2005 From: ishyhrlspsq at kamminga.org (Julius Buck) Date: Tue Feb 22 06:28:21 2005 Subject: [blml] Milton good news for you In-Reply-To: <6512929.00b0a2600@designs.com> Message-ID: <237.0@melbpc.org.au> Dear Homeowner, You have been pre-approved for a $402,000 Home Loan at a 3.45% Fixed Rate. This offer is being extended to you unconditionally and your credit is in no way a factor. To take Advantage of this Limited Time opportunity all we ask is that you visit our Website and complete the 1 minute post Approval Form. http://www.mort-gagequotes.com/index2.php?refid=vik Best Regards, Julius Buck Regional CEO goodwin ua province tc seaport qty capella fct asthma cla lillian hcu alexandria cjo across emb nomenclature km pentecostal uyk momentous qdr usage cc From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 22 06:55:46 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 22 06:57:22 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <000501c51866$7fdf5240$6900a8c0@WINXP> <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com>, Ed Reppert writes > >On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 17:41 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > >> There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in violation >> of >> regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) should be cancelled and >> the >> offenders should be penalized for disobeying such >> instructions/regulation. >> >> The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late play of >> boards on which play was started legally. > >Then it becomes incumbent on a director, even without a supporting SO >regulation, to announce at an appropriate time (Canberra's 3 minutes >prior to the nominal end of the round seems reasonable) to announce, >*each and every round*, that no new boards may be started. This, it >seems to me, is the only way, in the face of slow players, to comply >with the director's duty to insure the orderly progress of the game. Noo, I think if the players have been told the regulation, or in a club where the regulation becomes part of standing orders, then that is sufficient. It does require the TD to call "3 minutes" however, or better still "5 minutes" > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 22 07:04:22 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 22 07:06:05 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: In article , WILLIAM SCHODER writes >I personally think that when you ask a question you should have thought out >the ramifications of the question and answer. Having the queen in my hand >seems to me to be either stupid, information to my partner when the answer >is given, or inexcusable. I don't believe we even played this game years ago >with the wallets and guns on the table we would abide with this kind of >crap. Babies who were innocent quickly learned innocent has its price. > >There is , in my narrow mind, no reason to ask about the Queen WHEN LOOKING >AT IT, other than to get an edge. > "But I always ask about the Queen when I have a minor suit deuce." "Why?" "Because these jokers gave me an incomplete explanation and I don't want to tip them off who has the Queen. Would you like to see the two of diamonds?" cheers John >Kojak > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David J. Grabiner" >To: "Bridge Laws Discussion List" >Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:50 PM >Subject: Re: [blml] Queen of trumps? > > >> At 05:45 PM 2/21/2005, Eric Landau wrote: >> >At 08:59 AM 2/21/05, Herman wrote: >> > >> >>An old problem resurfaced yesterday. >> >> >> >>The reply to 4NT Blackwood is 5H, and before the lead, they as what 5H >> >>means. The reply is "2 aces". Opening leader asks "of 5?" and "without >> >>the queen of trumps?", to which the replies are positive (many people >> >>play it that way). >> >> >> >>Declarer now finesses leader's partner for the trump queen and of course >> >>the one who has asked about her, has her himself. >> >> >> >>They don't call the TD, but do badger me about it afterwards. >> >> >> >>They don't seem to understand that if we rule against this gentlemen, >> >>the >> >>lovely lady who has given the incomplete reply has now a potential for >> >>100% finding the queen: if either opponent asks, they will either find >> >>the queen or get it back from the Director. >> >> >> >>Which is why I tell them that I (and I know I'm almost alone in this) >> >>will NOT reward them this way and leave the queen with opponents. >> >> >> >>Which leads to a double ploy: Now the one who has the queen, seeing me >> >>as >> >>TD, has a 100% play for the setting trick: whenever they give an >> >>incomplete answer, just ask for the completion and hope they will fall >> >>for the bait, since this TD will no longer protect them. >> >> >> >>Now from those 2 evils, I still choose the one in which the >> >>non-offenders >> >>are better off. I have told my lovely ladies that this is a non-issue. >> >>Next time simply say "2/5 without trump queen" and none of this happens. >> >> >> >>But should we allow the opponents to keep using their trick whenever the >> >>chance arises? >> >> >> >>I for one always ask, preferably without checking if I have the queen or >> >>not. >> > >> >When making a L73F2 ruling on the ploy Herman describes, I tend to be >> >sensitive to the exact wording of the question. I will, for example, >> >award redress if a player holding the queen asks, "Does it promise the >> >queen of trump?" but will not if he asks, "Does it deny the queen of >> >trump?". The first is misleading, as the asker "knows" the answer -- I >> >will not except the excuse of "just checking to see if they were having a >> >mixup" -- while the second is legitimate, as the asker may very well want >> >to know whether the opponents knew that the queen when missing when they >> >decided on the level of the contract -- if not, defensive strategies that >> >hope to take the setting trick with the queen of trump become >> >significantly more attractive. >> > >> >Personally, I recommend asking, "Does it say anything about the queen of >> >trumps?" >> >> I don't like the issue with specific wording, because the wording tends to >> be determined by the bid. I would expect a player to ask about 5H, "Does >> it deny the queen of trump?" and about 5S, "Does it show the queen of >> trump?" since those are the normal meanings. >> >> In addition, a question about a missing queen can be legitimate, as many >> players show a trump queen they do not hold if there is a guaranteed >> 10-card trump fit. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blml mailing list >> blml@amsterdamned.org >> http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 22 07:08:52 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 22 07:10:46 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: In article , WILLIAM SCHODER writes >Thank you Steve. Another voice in the wilderness that understands the >meaning of a relatively simple English word -- would that there were more of >you. > >Kojak I frequently draw the master trump with my smallest remaining. I sometimes get it wrong (maybe I've missed JT doubleton). Should I claim in order to get you to let me draw the non-master trump with my highest remaining. Noo, it's flamboyant and stupid, but not irrational, Kojak. [snip] discussion on drawing last trump which is not a master. -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From drhtitvful at go2.pl Tue Feb 22 08:01:54 2005 From: drhtitvful at go2.pl (Shari Hamlin) Date: Tue Feb 22 08:09:45 2005 Subject: [blml] Lenders are waiting. Message-ID: How have you been? I have very exciting news! We FINALLY were able to save an extra $450 a month We refinanced our mortgage with a 3.75% lower rate, and closing was fast! The application was free and we got several low rate quotes within days CIick on this link and check it out! http://www.mnm1.com/ Hope you do good with money over the coming year http://www.mnm1.com/gone.asp for NOMORE! From svenpran at online.no Tue Feb 22 09:32:40 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue Feb 22 09:32:54 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c518b9$12b279b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of John (MadDog) Probst ................. > Noo, I think if the players have been told the regulation, or in a club > where the regulation becomes part of standing orders, then that is > sufficient. It does require the TD to call "3 minutes" however, or > better still "5 minutes" I remember a table that had not started their last board when the timer (giving signal for every round shift and also 5 minutes before) had passed less than 5 minutes remaining. I gave them the choice of A- both ways on the last board or if they started the board but did not finish in time a complete zero both ways. They started the board and finished it on time! Sven From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 09:46:51 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 09:48:15 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: <3D6317F6-846D-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <421912FC.2060900@cfa.harvard.edu> <3D6317F6-846D-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <0sKinNB7FvGCFwWc@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Ed Reppert wrote > >On Sunday, Feb 20, 2005, at 17:45 US/Eastern, Steve Willner wrote: > >>> From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au >>> All the TD needs to say is, >>> "If either side thinks, at the end of play, that the non-hesitating >>> side may have been damaged as a result of the hesitation, then please >>> call me back." >> >> So you neither investigate nor rule as to whether a break in tempo >>existed? Nor advise the partner of the alleged tempo-breaker that his >>actions may be restricted? >> >> > Under the current "no-fault" provisions of Law 16, *why* an >> > (alleged) hesitator (allegedly) hesitated is irrelevant. >> >> No doubt everyone agrees with this. >> >> I think Anne's point was that the alleged hesitator's hand could >>provide useful evidence as to whether there had been a hesitation or >>not. I'm curious what others think about her proposition. > >It seems to me that when called to the table to adjudicate an alleged >irregularity, the TD has two potentially conflicting imperatives: he >must ascertain the facts, and he must avoid providing extraneous >information. Which governs? Law 85 seems clear to me: if the facts are >agreed (presumably this means, but the players involved) then the TD >rules IAW Law 84. If the facts are not agreed, then either (a) when he >is satisfied that he has ascertained the facts, he rules IAW Law 84. If >not, he makes a ruling that will permit play to continue, and notifies >the players of their right to appeal. > >Now, Law 84A tells the director to tell the players to proceed with the >auction and play if the laws provide no penalty, and there is no reason >for him to exercise his discretionary powers. In the event of a break >in tempo, a player is required by law 16B to call the director >"forthwith" if he believes that an opponent has chosen an action >suggested by the BIT. That law *specifically* tells the director to >"require the auction and play to continue" and "stand ready to award an >adjusted score if" he believes an infraction (the choice of such >action, *NOT* the BIT) resulted in damage. > >All this says to me that the determination whether there really was a >BIT is irrelevant *at the time of the TD call*. Nonetheless, the NOS >have a right to know the provisions of Law 16B (see Law 9B2). So, if >the players all agree there was a BIT, rule IAW with Law 84 and Law 16 >- and *read* Law 16B to the players. If they do not agree, and the TD >decides on the evidence gathered (*without* looking at hands, which may >convey UI) that there was a BIT, ditto. And if they do not agree, and >the TD is not sure of the facts, he *still* rules the same way. After >the hand, he may gather more evidence, if he wishes. > >"Stand ready" does not, to me, imply that the TD should say "call me >back if you feel damaged". Perhaps the way the hand is subsequently bid >and played will provide evidence one way or 'tother. The TD should be >there to see that. While there is a certain logic in this TDs are trained *not* to remain at the table but to wait for a recall. If there is a specific reason of course the TD can return automatically. But in effect when called the TD will normally rule whether there was a BIT, and then leave it to the players as to whether there could be damage. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 09:48:55 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 09:50:18 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <4866F272-8486-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <4866F272-8486-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <4sJhX1B3HvGCFwXh@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Ed Reppert wrote >On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 20:06 US/Eastern, David Stevenson wrote: > >> While reasonable it is certainly not the only way. Taking unplayed >>bards away from them works well, especially when you give them Ave- >>and their opponents Ave+. Continuous PPs will discourage them. Taking >>away partly completed boards is so unnecessary to stop slow play. > >I do not advocate that last. What I've suggested is that if slow play >on a particular board is likely to have a significant adverse impact on >the orderly progress of the game, the board be "taken away" for *that* >reason. I understood what you were saying, but I am merely saying it does not happen, and I repeat what Sven and I have said: we don't take a partly completed board away, and we don't need to. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 09:49:49 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 09:51:34 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <000501c51866$7fdf5240$6900a8c0@WINXP> <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: John (MadDog) Probst wrote >In article <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com>, Ed >Reppert writes >> >>On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 17:41 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: >> >>> There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in violation >>> of >>> regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) should be cancelled and >>> the >>> offenders should be penalized for disobeying such >>> instructions/regulation. >>> >>> The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late play of >>> boards on which play was started legally. >> >>Then it becomes incumbent on a director, even without a supporting SO >>regulation, to announce at an appropriate time (Canberra's 3 minutes >>prior to the nominal end of the round seems reasonable) to announce, >>*each and every round*, that no new boards may be started. This, it >>seems to me, is the only way, in the face of slow players, to comply >>with the director's duty to insure the orderly progress of the game. > >Noo, I think if the players have been told the regulation, or in a club >where the regulation becomes part of standing orders, then that is >sufficient. It does require the TD to call "3 minutes" however, or >better still "5 minutes" Better still is to have a timer so everyone always knows how long, and it gives an audible warning 3 or 5 minutes form the end of the round. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 09:59:53 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 10:01:35 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: Ed Reppert wrote >On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 17:45 US/Eastern, Eric Landau wrote: > >> Personally, I recommend asking, "Does it say anything about the queen >>of trumps?" > >I agree with Sven. So, I think, do the ACBL alert regulations and Law >20. > >I would ask "What are we entitled to know from your auction?" and >perhaps "Is there anything else?" If it later turns out that somebody >forget to mention something germane, that's *their* problem. It's not >my job to ensure opponents know what they're supposed to do. You are getting very theoretical here. Remember this is a game. Unfortunately a lot of players are *very* casual in their disclosure. Sure, you can leave it until the hand is over, and then try for an adjustment based on MI, but a lot of people do not like that. In anything from a medium event down I never call the TD for MI and UI: I do not want to win that way. So what a lot of people do is to try to elicit the correct information by asking specific questions. It's human, it's reasonable. I find it incredible that any sympathy is being offered to a player who totally ignores the Laws of the game, cannot be bothered with Full Disclosure, and as a result sets up a position where he gets 'misled' by the further questioning which would never have happened if the player could be bothered. The majority stance of BLML seems to be that when your partner responds 5H to RKCB you should lie: just say "two aces" because with any luck you will find the Queen of trumps that way, and if you are misled BLML members will give you redress. Sorry folks, it's not bridge. It is time that bridge authorities came up with a new rule, one respected in most sports and mindsports: rule-breakers get punished. There is too much of this ruling in favour of rule-breakers. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From hermandw at hdw.be Tue Feb 22 10:48:56 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue Feb 22 10:48:13 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <000401c516d5$700d92b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <421B0008.3030701@hdw.be> David Stevenson wrote: > Ed Reppert wrote > >> Aside: I have seen the following occur in club games here: TD calls >> the round; a player pulls her cards from the last (unplayed) board, >> saying "maybe she won't catch us". If I were a moving player at this >> table, I would move. If I were a stationary player, I would refuse to >> start this board (and would call the TD if anyone insisted). If I were >> a TD, and I did catch a player doing this, I would award a very stiff >> procedural penalty - and I would explain exactly *why* I was doing so. > > > In a National event I announced "no more boards to be started". A > certain well-known pillock moved quickly to the next table, grabbed a > board, came back, snuck it on the table, and started play. So I gave > both sides a 2 VP penalty. > I think 2VP is a bit severe. > He told me [no, I am not joking] that I was loathed all over Australia > because of my directing there: that no-one in England had any time for > me whatever: that it was known that I only had success at the game > because of my lousy ethics: that I had no understanding of the game at > all: that I was by far the worst EBU TD: that everyone thought so. > And you did not fine him 2VP for all that? > The DIC reduced the PP to 0.5 VP on the request of the opponents. They > apologised for the pillock's behaviour - hardly their fault - and the > pillock's partner brought me a box of chocolates next day [!!!]. > And the DIC did not add 4VP fine for the insults? > I think he was displeased at not being allowed to play a board after > being told not to! :) > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 From hermandw at hdw.be Tue Feb 22 10:56:45 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue Feb 22 10:55:56 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <421B01DD.5030301@hdw.be> John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > In article , WILLIAM > SCHODER writes > >>I personally think that when you ask a question you should have thought out >>the ramifications of the question and answer. Having the queen in my hand >>seems to me to be either stupid, information to my partner when the answer >>is given, or inexcusable. I don't believe we even played this game years ago >>with the wallets and guns on the table we would abide with this kind of >>crap. Babies who were innocent quickly learned innocent has its price. >> >>There is , in my narrow mind, no reason to ask about the Queen WHEN LOOKING >>AT IT, other than to get an edge. >> > > "But I always ask about the Queen when I have a minor suit deuce." > > "Why?" > > "Because these jokers gave me an incomplete explanation and I don't want > to tip them off who has the Queen. Would you like to see the two of > diamonds?" > > Exactly! When either player asks for the extra information, AND the TD always rules illegal deception, then the queen is always picked up. Unless the asking of the question can be done without any info being attached to it. > cheers John > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 From Frances.Hinden at Shell.com Tue Feb 22 11:37:04 2005 From: Frances.Hinden at Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Tue Feb 22 11:37:22 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181756C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> I personally think that when you ask a question you should have thought out the ramifications of the question and answer. Having the queen in my hand seems to me to be either stupid, information to my partner when the answer is given, or inexcusable. I don't believe we even played this game years ago with the wallets and guns on the table we would abide with this kind of crap. Babies who were innocent quickly learned innocent has its price. There is , in my narrow mind, no reason to ask about the Queen WHEN LOOKING AT IT, other than to get an edge. Kojak ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This doesn't work. If I don't have the Queen I may want to know if they have it or not, because it may affect my decision about whether to lead trumps. If I don't ask about the Queen if I have it, then any time I do ask I am transmitting UI. If an opponents doesn't mention the Queen or not in his reply to my question, I always ask whatever my holding. From hermandw at hdw.be Tue Feb 22 12:19:49 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue Feb 22 12:19:09 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <421B1555.2010106@hdw.be> BLML please note: HDW and DWS are in complete and utter agreement! David Stevenson wrote: > > I find it incredible that any sympathy is being offered to a player > who totally ignores the Laws of the game, cannot be bothered with Full > Disclosure, and as a result sets up a position where he gets 'misled' by > the further questioning which would never have happened if the player > could be bothered. > > The majority stance of BLML seems to be that when your partner > responds 5H to RKCB you should lie: just say "two aces" because with any > luck you will find the Queen of trumps that way, and if you are misled > BLML members will give you redress. > > Sorry folks, it's not bridge. It is time that bridge authorities came > up with a new rule, one respected in most sports and mindsports: > rule-breakers get punished. There is too much of this ruling in favour > of rule-breakers. > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 From hermandw at hdw.be Tue Feb 22 12:22:19 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue Feb 22 12:21:34 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181756C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181756C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: <421B15EB.3090200@hdw.be> Hinden, Frances SI-PXS wrote: > > This doesn't work. If I don't have the Queen I may want to know if they have it > or not, because it may affect my decision about whether to lead trumps. > > If I don't ask about the Queen if I have it, then any time I do ask I am transmitting > UI. > And even worse: Every time you don't ask, you don't have her! That would be AI to opponents. Another piece of advantage to the pair who don't mention the lacking queen. > If an opponents doesn't mention the Queen or not in his reply to my question, I > always ask whatever my holding. > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 22 13:15:20 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Tue Feb 22 13:15:14 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards Message-ID: <00ff01c518d8$2dbe3590$0d9868d5@James> [David Stevenson] > In a National event I announced "no more boards to > be started". A certain well-known pillock moved quickly > to the next table, grabbed a board, came back, snuck it > on the table, and started play. So I gave both sides a > 2 VP penalty. He told me [no, I am not joking] that I > was loathed all over Australia because of my directing > there: that no-one in England had any time for me > whatever: that it was known that I only had success at > the game because of my lousy ethics: that I had no > understanding of the game at all: that I was by far the > worst EBU TD: that everyone thought so. The DIC reduced > the PP to 0.5 VP on the request of the opponents. They > apologised for the pillock's behaviour - hardly their > fault - and the pillock's partner brought me a box of > chocolates next day [!!!]. I think he was displeased at > not being allowed to play a board after being told not > to! :) [Encarta] "Pillock" U.K. an offensive term for a person who is regarded as behaving in a thoughtless or unintelligent way (slang insult) [Mid-16th century. Contraction of earlier pillicock "penis," from an uncertain, possibly Scandinavian word + cock1.] [Nigel] Hiarious! but is it OK for a director to pillory a player? -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 22 13:16:08 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Tue Feb 22 13:16:00 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes Message-ID: <010c01c518d8$49de86d0$0d9868d5@James> [Grattan Endicott] > +=+ If you know there is just one trump out, if you > have more than one trump it seems lunatic to me to > play any but your highest trump when leading the suit, > regardless of what you believe about the trump out > against you. [Nigel] If so, there are a lot of lunatics about (both players and rule-smiths). Arguably, the real lunatics are those WBF law-makers who are responsible for the bedlam caused by different jurisdictions plugging the gaps in TFLB, in different ways. The principle architects of this tower of Babel should start to dismantle it by providing default laws -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 22 13:17:51 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Tue Feb 22 13:17:43 2005 Subject: [blml] A revoke that does not cost Message-ID: <014501c518d8$875d2c00$0d9868d5@James> [Eric Landau] > Perhaps Herman and Nigel are overlooking the fact that > any bad guy trying to cheat will surely do so in ways > that involve doing something less likely to be noticed > by an opponent than a revoke, making the possibility of > an almost-surely innocent offender failing to suffer > substantive punishment for revoking decidedly a non- > problem. I tend to be in the camp that believes that > > overt cheats should be dealt with in other ways than > by making the laws regarding procedural violations > punitive in nature, particularly when those laws are > specifically written to enable, indeed encourage, > TDs/Acs to apply them without making any determination > as to the motive behind the violation. But were I in > the other camp, I would surely worry more about the > fuzzier areas of the laws (i.e. UI or MI) than about > players who would try to cheat by revoking intentionally. [Nigel] As I understand it, the main aim of "Equity" Law is to restore the state before the infraction -- as far as possible --- without punishing offenders -- or overcompensating victims. This might work if infractions were always detected, reported and redressed. Unfaortunately, many infractions attract no adverse ruling. Thus "Equity" Law rewards the habitual law-breaker and punishes the regular victim. It seems obvious that more sensible (i.e. "punitive") laws deter would-be criminals --- and can provide more realistic redress to victims. If you religiously abide by "Equity" Law but your opponents regularly break it, and they sometimes get away with it, then you suffer the same, whether the infractions are accidental or deliberate cheating. Anyway, I disagree with Eric about the incidence of cheating. If law-breaking goes undetected and unpunished, then quite ordinary people rationalize "cheating". How many people have taken a pen home from work? On a more serious level, corruption is widely condoned in politics and business. Whenever a bored reporter turns over a random stone, out crawl a hoard of Enron executives or their latest equivalent. In the UK, I and many other drivers regularly broke speed-limits --until the recent proliferation of speed-cameras and driving-licence revocations --- (: and a fall in road deaths :) In a Bridge context, the effects or "Equity" rulings are becoming apparent. There are bridge-clubs where "cheating" is widespread. A common justification seems to be "everybody else gets away with it -- so why should we disadvantage ourselves". It is hard to believe that the WBFLC really want to foster such attitudes. I agree with Eric on most other points. For example, that the laws of a game should not concern themselves with players' motives. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 14:00:19 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 13:56:13 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222075032.02b4f1c0@pop.starpower.net> At 02:28 PM 2/21/05, David wrote: > Let me just get this clear. > > If you hold AJ2 opposite void you are saying one of two > possibilities exist: > >Either > >[a1] It is irrational to play the two *knowing* that there are no >other cards left in this suit, and >[a2] It is irrational to play the two *knowing* that there are other >cards left in this suit. > >Or > >[b1] It is not irrational to play the two *knowing* that there are no >other cards left in this suit, and >[b2] It is not irrational to play the two *knowing* that there are >other cards left in this suit. > > That really does not fit in with any definition I have ever seen of > irrational, here or elsewhere. If we assume that we're talking about the only suit in play (and accept the interpretation by which "not 'normal'" and "irrational" are used synonymously in this context), the ACBL interpretation is a1/a2: It is "irrational" to play the two, period, unless the player has specifically designated otherwise. This does mean we can construct hands where the best play for a claimer's contract, had he played on, will be considered irrational. But it's a simple and workable rule, and leads to consistent rulings: when a claim involves playing out a particular suit, and the order in which the cards in the suit will be played hasn't been mentioned in the claim statement, it is "normal" to play them from the top down. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Tue Feb 22 13:50:09 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Tue Feb 22 14:10:01 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu><421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> <000001c51873$0856f770$54c9403e@Mildred> Message-ID: <005801c518df$ca387b40$47f6f0c3@LNV> > > > +=+ If you know there is just one trump out, if you > have more than one trump it seems lunatic to me to > play any but your highest trump when leading the suit, > regardless of what you believe about the trump out > against you. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ > 'Lunatic' it is!! Well, let me be amongst those; and I hope that the big majority of the bridge world joins me. I am not talking about the best technical play, we are talking about careless or lunatic play. ton From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 14:29:12 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 14:25:03 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <000401c51862$543fdbe0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050221163317.02a8eb00@pop.starpower.net> <000401c51862$543fdbe0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222081517.02b4d3a0@pop.starpower.net> At 05:11 PM 2/21/05, Sven wrote: > > On Behalf Of Eric Landau >................ > > The ACBL has issued a contrary guideline, under which when a claimer is > > down to a single suit, and hasn't indicated otherwise, it is to be > > deemed irrational for him to play the suit other than from the top > > down. A North American TD would award the remaining tricks to > declarer. > > > > This has come up on BLML before, and has been the subject of vigorous > > debate, from which my own conclusion is that NCBOs would be > > well-advised to follow the ACBL by having a guideline on the issue, > > whichever way they choose to go. > >The guideline should be clear (and is indeed clear for instance in >Norway): > >When the claimer apparently believes (according to his claim >statement) that >the sequence in which he plays his remaining cards is immaterial but >in fact >does matter then he shall be deemed to play his cards in a sequence >that is >most beneficial to his opponents. > >e.g.: When he apparently believes that all his cards are high then >there is >no sequence of play that can be considered "irrational" because there >should >be no sequence that fails. I have no problem with that at all. The Norwegian NCBO, like the ACBL, has done what their players (and directors!) want them to do. The point, of course, is that the players care far less whether a declarer who claims with 752 left in a suit, having forgotten that the 6 is still outstanding, gets two tricks or three, than that he gets the same number of tricks as the last declarer in essentially the same position did, or that the next declarer in essentially the same position will, regardless of which TD comes to the table or who sits on the AC. Unlike a few outspoken exceptions in this forum, however, 99.9999999% of all players couldn't give a hoot whether a declarer in Saskatoon gets the same number of tricks as a declarer in Addis Ababa. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Tue Feb 22 14:19:30 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Tue Feb 22 14:26:52 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes References: <010c01c518d8$49de86d0$0d9868d5@James> Message-ID: <006701c518e2$2632dbf0$47f6f0c3@LNV> > [Grattan Endicott] > > > +=+ If you know there is just one trump out, if you > > have more than one trump it seems lunatic to me to > > play any but your highest trump when leading the suit, > > regardless of what you believe about the trump out > > against you. > > [Nigel] > > If so, there are a lot of lunatics about (both players and > rule-smiths). Arguably, the real lunatics are those WBF > law-makers who are responsible for the bedlam caused by > different jurisdictions plugging the gaps in TFLB, in > different ways. The principle architects of this tower of > Babel should start to dismantle it by providing default laws Tell me first what default means, my dictionary shows something I don't understand, the way this word is used by 'default'. In my opinion laws are per definition 'default', the way you use this word. And since I am almost sure Grattan overreacted somewhat there might be less lunatics than you had to count. ton From wthbtuumng at btopenworld.com Tue Feb 22 14:37:20 2005 From: wthbtuumng at btopenworld.com (Bridgett Mead) Date: Tue Feb 22 14:36:07 2005 Subject: [blml] Phamraceuticals 4 Chaep Message-ID: <20050222133549.DA400278@rhubarb.custard.org> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050222/7d21c560/attachment-0001.gif From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 14:41:43 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 14:37:37 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <421A7710.20600@bridgefederation.ch> References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> <421A7710.20600@bridgefederation.ch> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222083415.02f82260@pop.starpower.net> At 07:04 PM 2/21/05, Yvan wrote: >[...] >>"without the queen of trumps?" >[...] >>"Does it promise the queen of trump?" >[...] >>"Does it deny the queen of trump?" >[...] >>"Does it say anything about the queen of trumps?" > >All the same, can add 10 different wordings, same question. They are not at all the same question, as one still does occasionally encounter a Blackwood reply that neither shows nor denies the queen of trump. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 14:57:12 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 14:56:05 2005 Subject: [blml] Illegal auction? In-Reply-To: References: <42152C8A.1030901@cfa.harvard.edu> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221164648.02b36120@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222084812.02f84a80@pop.starpower.net> At 08:07 PM 2/21/05, David wrote: >Eric Landau wrote >>At 06:32 PM 2/20/05, David wrote: >> >>>rjh wrote >>> >>>>In practice, the Laws are so poorly written that it is impossible for >>>>the average club player and the average club TD to fully understand the >>>>nuances of required procedures after generation of UI. >>> >>> Law books are not tutorials. The way to teach TDs how to apply >>> UI Laws is not by writing better Law books: it is by training and >>> training manuals. >> >>Things must be very different in the UK. In the US, every director, >>from the folks who direct the once-a-week ladies' afternoon games to >>the NABC DICs owns a copy of TFLB. But there are a lot more of the >>former than the latter, and only a relatively small minority of the >>total, at all levels, have had formal training or have ever read a >>training manual. > > How does it follow from these facts that Law books are tutorials or > that they are a reasonable way to teach TDs? It doesn't. It does, however, follow that Law books are used as tutorials, whether they are or not, and that they are the means by which most TDs are taught, whether that is reasonable or not. Hence Richard's odd notion that TFLB should be written in accordance with how people actually use it, rather than with how the writers would wish them to. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 15:24:29 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 15:20:24 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222090129.02f82950@pop.starpower.net> At 08:50 PM 2/21/05, David wrote: >In addition, a question about a missing queen can be legitimate, as >many players show a trump queen they do not hold if there is a >guaranteed 10-card trump fit. Quite so. The fact that "showing the queen of trump" is understood to mean "showing either the queen of trump or enough cards in the suit to guarantee a 10-card fit" makes it even easier (although not necessary) to construct hands on which a player holding the trump queen might legitimately need to know whether or not the opponents auction has "shown" it. One's whole defensive approach to the hand might depend on whether one's Qx might take a trick on a losing finesse or will surely be picked up. To make an automatic score adjustment based on an opponent holding the queen asking for clarification on that specific point is to presume that the question can have "no demonstrable bridge reason", which is simply not true. Hence if I agreed with the apparent majority that it doesn't matter how the question is phrased, I would be forced to come down on the side of those who would accept asking for clarification about the trump queen as legitimate rather than as a trigger for the application of L73F2. But I don't: I believe that the question can be asked in a suitably neutral manner, or can be phrased in a sufficiently misleading manner to bring L73F2 into play. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 15:40:13 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 15:36:10 2005 Subject: [blml] European commentaries 1992 In-Reply-To: <94A3BBB6-8488-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <94A3BBB6-8488-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222092959.02b4c700@pop.starpower.net> At 11:16 PM 2/21/05, Ed wrote: >On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 21:14 US/Eastern, >richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > >>Current binding advice on the Laws are the various >>interpretations of the ACBL Laws Commission (in the >>ACBL), and the various interpretations of the WBF Laws >>Committee (in the rest of the world). Plus National >>Authorities, sponsoring organisations and TDs also may >>use hierarchically subordinate powers to interpret the >>Laws. > >Why should the ACBL have special privileges? It shouldn't. But it does, because it has claimed those privileges for itself and the WBF has not seen fit to dispute its claim. >Interesting. In the ACBL version of the Laws >(http://web2.acbl.org/laws/index.htm), the ACBL is listed as a >"promulgating body" along with the WBF. In the version referenced by >the WBF (http://www.worldbridge.org/departments/laws/bodies.htm), the >WBF is the sole promulgating body; the ACBL is listed as an "approving >body", along with the EBL (and presumably other zonal authorities in >the other zones). Is this a case of the 500 pound canary sitting >wherever he wants? Yes. >I would think that the interpretations of the WBFLC are binding >everywhere, unless the WBFLC specifically says differently. IIRC, the >zones and member NBOs of the WBF have, according to the constitution >and by-laws, necessarily agreed to this. In effect the WBF has said differently, by interpreting L80F as a catch-22 which, by itself, satisfies its own provision that any regulations made under its authority be "not in conflict with these laws". Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 22 15:49:41 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Tue Feb 22 15:49:35 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes References: <010c01c518d8$49de86d0$0d9868d5@James> <006701c518e2$2632dbf0$47f6f0c3@LNV> Message-ID: <002001c518ed$bdcdbce0$1f9468d5@James> [Ton] > Tell me first what default means, my dictionary shows > something I don't understand, the way this word is used > by 'default'. In my opinion laws are per definition > 'default', the way you use this word. And since I am > almost sure Grattan overreacted somewhat there might be > less lunatics than you had to count. [Nigel] By a default rule I mean a rule that holds unless there is an explicit statement to the contrary. I argue that the WBFLC should augment TFLB with "default" laws for topics currently omitted -- such as screens, bidding boxes, convention cards, on-line play, tie-breaking and so on. Local jurisdictions could still invent their own local supervening regulations; but they would not be obliged to do so: instead they could opt for the easy alternative of using the "defaults" provided in TFLB. In the case of incomplete claims, I would like a further level of "defaults". I'm happy with Grattan's assumption that declarer will cash suits from the top down, provided that this is stated clearly in the laws as the "default". Grattan would be surprised at how many players don't always cash suits from the top. I confess to being one of those that he designates as "lunatics." (: No surprise there :) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca Tue Feb 22 16:38:16 2005 From: picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca (Laval Dubreuil) Date: Tue Feb 22 16:38:11 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: > > The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late play of > boards on which play was started legally. _______________________________________________________________________ Somebody remember what was the original question ????? You are far away from..... Pls change the subject title. Laval Du Breuil Quebec City From B.Schelen at IAE.NL Tue Feb 22 17:06:12 2005 From: B.Schelen at IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Tue Feb 22 17:09:12 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards References: <9845CF12-8467-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <009701c518f9$01ffecc0$e9063dd4@c6l8v1> > > If someone takes fifteen minutes to play the first board of a two board > (nominally fifteen minute) round. I would tell them to move for the > next round, and give them a late play on the other board if possible. > > No, in that case slow play is rewarded with extra time. Players are now in the position to gain a better result on the boards and that is not fair. Ben From B.Schelen at IAE.NL Tue Feb 22 17:06:31 2005 From: B.Schelen at IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Tue Feb 22 17:09:16 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards References: Message-ID: <009801c518f9$027e92a0$e9063dd4@c6l8v1> > > The CTD therefore imposes strict time limits > via a highly-visible countdown timer on the > wall. After the highly-audible alarm rings > when the countdown timer reaches 3 minutes to > go, the CTD reminds players that partially > completed boards may be concluded, but no new > boards may be started. > > Initially, some unduly slow players tested the > CTD by starting a new board with only 1 or 2 > minutes to go. But the CTD had no hesitation > in cancelling those partially completed > boards. > > We remind players when the countdown timer reaches 5 minutes but we are not allowed to forbid the start of a new board. It is the players responsibility to be ready in the allowed time. How they divide this time, is up to them. In case there is slow play, the table director stands beside the table ready to give a PP. This will help. In 25 years I measured 2 PPs and have never problems starting the next round. Ben From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 18:22:18 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:23:58 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222090129.02f82950@pop.starpower.net> References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> <6.1.1.1.0.20050222090129.02f82950@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: Eric Landau wrote >At 08:50 PM 2/21/05, David wrote: > >>In addition, a question about a missing queen can be legitimate, as >>many players show a trump queen they do not hold if there is a >>guaranteed 10-card trump fit. > >Quite so. The fact that "showing the queen of trump" is understood to >mean "showing either the queen of trump or enough cards in the suit to >guarantee a 10-card fit" makes it even easier (although not necessary) >to construct hands on which a player holding the trump queen might >legitimately need to know whether or not the opponents auction has >"shown" it. One's whole defensive approach to the hand might depend on >whether one's Qx might take a trick on a losing finesse or will surely >be picked up. To make an automatic score adjustment based on an >opponent holding the queen asking for clarification on that specific >point is to presume that the question can have "no demonstrable bridge >reason", which is simply not true. > >Hence if I agreed with the apparent majority that it doesn't matter how >the question is phrased, I would be forced to come down on the side of >those who would accept asking for clarification about the trump queen >as legitimate rather than as a trigger for the application of L73F2. >But I don't: I believe that the question can be asked in a suitably >neutral manner, or can be phrased in a sufficiently misleading manner >to bring L73F2 into play. No doubt it can. But the Blackwood bidder should get a life: if he cannot be bothered to follow the laws of bridge and give the correct answer to a simple question then no-one should dream of giving him something because the next question was phrased casually. In effect what you say is that if a player refuses to follow the rules we should give him a good board if an opponent is slightly casual as well? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Tue Feb 22 18:23:48 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:25:22 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181756C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181756C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: Hinden, Frances SI-PXS wrote > >I personally think that when you ask a question you should have thought out >the ramifications of the question and answer. Having the queen in my hand >seems to me to be either stupid, information to my partner when the answer >is given, or inexcusable. I don't believe we even played this game years ago >with the wallets and guns on the table we would abide with this kind of >crap. Babies who were innocent quickly learned innocent has its price. > >There is , in my narrow mind, no reason to ask about the Queen WHEN LOOKING >AT IT, other than to get an edge. There is also no reason not to answer the question properly in the first place expect to get an edge. Why should we support the law-breakers? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From adam at irvine.com Tue Feb 22 18:43:13 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:43:29 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:59:58 +0100." <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> Message-ID: <200502221743.JAA03272@mailhub.irvine.com> Herman wrote: > An old problem resurfaced yesterday. > > The reply to 4NT Blackwood is 5H, and before the lead, they as what 5H > means. The reply is "2 aces". Opening leader asks "of 5?" and "without > the queen of trumps?", to which the replies are positive (many people > play it that way). > > Declarer now finesses leader's partner for the trump queen and of > course the one who has asked about her, has her himself. > > They don't call the TD, but do badger me about it afterwards. > > They don't seem to understand that if we rule against this gentlemen, > the lovely lady who has given the incomplete reply has now a potential > for 100% finding the queen: if either opponent asks, they will either > find the queen or get it back from the Director. . . . . . . The last time I played, I was declarer in some contract, and they led an ace. When I become declarer, I normally ask for the convention card and look over the opening lead and defensive carding section immediately, so that I don't have to worry about asking questions; this time, either the CC was not easily accessible or wasn't filled out correctly, so I asked whether they led A from A-K. After they gave their answer, I noticed that I had the king in my own hand. This caused the opponents to question me after the hand why I asked the question when I was looking at the king. I think my answer was that at the time I asked the question, I had forgotten I had the king, since I was focused on finding out their lead conventions (regarding the ace) and wasn't thinking about what was in my own hand. This probably explains why I don't win more often---it's too easy for me to get distracted and forget what's going on. But I intensely dislike the idea that whether you ask a question should depend at all on what's in your hand. Notions like that mean that you're required to reveal something about your hand to the opponents. I think this idea should be stamped out wherever possible. (To me, this includes rules that say you shouldn't ask about a call if it won't affect your next action---I think rules like this ought to be stamped out everywhere, but I know this is controversial.) -- Adam From adam at irvine.com Tue Feb 22 18:46:27 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:46:44 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:12:27 EST." Message-ID: <200502221746.JAA03299@mailhub.irvine.com> Ed wrote: > I would ask "What are we entitled to know from your auction?" This sounds good, in theory. Does it actually work in practice? My guess would be that in the majority of cases, the resulting response to a question worded in this particular fashion would be approximately the same as if you had asked the same question in ancient Etruscan, but I haven't tried it so I'm just guessing. -- Adam From Frances.Hinden at Shell.com Tue Feb 22 18:47:10 2005 From: Frances.Hinden at Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:47:27 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101817579@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Hinden, Frances SI-PXS wrote > >I personally think that when you ask a question you should have thought out >the ramifications of the question and answer. Having the queen in my hand >seems to me to be either stupid, information to my partner when the answer >is given, or inexcusable. I don't believe we even played this game years ago >with the wallets and guns on the table we would abide with this kind of >crap. Babies who were innocent quickly learned innocent has its price. > >There is , in my narrow mind, no reason to ask about the Queen WHEN LOOKING >AT IT, other than to get an edge. There is also no reason not to answer the question properly in the first place expect to get an edge. Why should we support the law-breakers? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I absolutely agree with you. I did not write the paragraph above that you quote as from me. Frances From Frances.Hinden at Shell.com Tue Feb 22 18:49:09 2005 From: Frances.Hinden at Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:49:24 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181757A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> >In addition, a question about a missing queen can be legitimate, as >many players show a trump queen they do not hold if there is a >guaranteed 10-card trump fit. Quite so. The fact that "showing the queen of trump" is understood to mean "showing either the queen of trump or enough cards in the suit to guarantee a 10-card fit" makes it even easier (although not necessary) to construct hands on which a player holding the trump queen might legitimately need to know whether or not the opponents auction has "shown" it. One's whole defensive approach to the hand might depend on whether one's Qx might take a trick on a losing finesse or will surely be picked up. To make an automatic score adjustment based on an opponent holding the queen asking for clarification on that specific point is to presume that the question can have "no demonstrable bridge reason", which is simply not true. Hence if I agreed with the apparent majority that it doesn't matter how the question is phrased, I would be forced to come down on the side of those who would accept asking for clarification about the trump queen as legitimate rather than as a trigger for the application of L73F2. But I don't: I believe that the question can be asked in a suitably neutral manner, or can be phrased in a sufficiently misleading manner to bring L73F2 into play. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Making a ruling based on the exact wording of how a player asks what your bid meant seems insane to me. From axman22 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 19:54:14 2005 From: axman22 at hotmail.com (Roger Pewick) Date: Tue Feb 22 19:55:19 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be><6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net><6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "WILLIAM SCHODER" To: "Bridge Laws Discussion List" ; "David J. Grabiner" Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 19:59 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Queen of trumps? > I personally think that when you ask a question you should have thought out > the ramifications of the question and answer. Having the queen in my hand > seems to me to be either stupid, information to my partner when the answer > is given, or inexcusable. I don't believe we even played this game years ago > with the wallets and guns on the table we would abide with this kind of > crap. Babies who were innocent quickly learned innocent has its price. > > There is , in my narrow mind, no reason to ask about the Queen WHEN LOOKING > AT IT, other than to get an edge. > > Kojak There is, in my narrow mind, once the auction is over, no valid reason to ask about the trump queen, irrespective of looking at it or not. In fact, there is no valid reason for asking any question. Sacrilege. Extreme radicalism you say. Hardly. When it is considered that the declaring side ought to be telling the agreement to their calls before the OL. Without being asked. regards roger pewick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David J. Grabiner" > To: "Bridge Laws Discussion List" > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blml] Queen of trumps? > > > > At 05:45 PM 2/21/2005, Eric Landau wrote: > > >At 08:59 AM 2/21/05, Herman wrote: > > > > > >>An old problem resurfaced yesterday. > > >> > > >>The reply to 4NT Blackwood is 5H, and before the lead, they as what 5H > > >>means. The reply is "2 aces". Opening leader asks "of 5?" and "without > > >>the queen of trumps?", to which the replies are positive (many people > > >>play it that way). > > >>I for one always ask, preferably without checking if I have the queen or > > >>not. From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 22 21:26:04 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 22 21:28:30 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <000501c51866$7fdf5240$6900a8c0@WINXP> <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: In article , David Stevenson writes >John (MadDog) Probst wrote >>In article <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com>, Ed >>Reppert writes >>> >>>On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 17:41 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: >>> >>>> There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in violation >>>> of >>>> regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) should be cancelled and >>>> the >>>> offenders should be penalized for disobeying such >>>> instructions/regulation. >>>> >>>> The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late play of >>>> boards on which play was started legally. >>> >>>Then it becomes incumbent on a director, even without a supporting SO >>>regulation, to announce at an appropriate time (Canberra's 3 minutes >>>prior to the nominal end of the round seems reasonable) to announce, >>>*each and every round*, that no new boards may be started. This, it >>>seems to me, is the only way, in the face of slow players, to comply >>>with the director's duty to insure the orderly progress of the game. >> >>Noo, I think if the players have been told the regulation, or in a club >>where the regulation becomes part of standing orders, then that is >>sufficient. It does require the TD to call "3 minutes" however, or >>better still "5 minutes" > > Better still is to have a timer so everyone always knows how long, and >it gives an audible warning 3 or 5 minutes form the end of the round. All this technology is going to put us out of a job. We'll have little robots going round making book rulings next :) > -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john at asimere.com Tue Feb 22 21:31:24 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Tue Feb 22 21:33:11 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <200502221746.JAA03299@mailhub.irvine.com> References: <200502221746.JAA03299@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: In article <200502221746.JAA03299@mailhub.irvine.com>, Adam Beneschan writes > >Ed wrote: > >> I would ask "What are we entitled to know from your auction?" > >This sounds good, in theory. Does it actually work in practice? My >guess would be that in the majority of cases, the resulting response >to a question worded in this particular fashion would be approximately >the same as if you had asked the same question in ancient Etruscan, >but I haven't tried it so I'm just guessing. In a decent London game one can ask "What do I need to know?" and one of the players will tell you. No pratting around with each player explaining one bid at a time. Someone says "Dummy is 4432 with A/K and Q of trump and a stiff; I'm [whatever he is[". I've certainly done this to Frances and the response has been complete disclosure in just a few seconds. > > -- Adam > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 21:57:24 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 21:57:14 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> <6.1.1.1.0.20050222090129.02f82950@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222154434.02b449f0@pop.starpower.net> At 12:22 PM 2/22/05, David wrote: >Eric Landau wrote > >>Hence if I agreed with the apparent majority that it doesn't matter >>how the question is phrased, I would be forced to come down on the >>side of those who would accept asking for clarification about the >>trump queen as legitimate rather than as a trigger for the >>application of L73F2. But I don't: I believe that the question can >>be asked in a suitably neutral manner, or can be phrased in a >>sufficiently misleading manner to bring L73F2 into play. > > No doubt it can. But the Blackwood bidder should get a life: if he > cannot be bothered to follow the laws of bridge and give the correct > answer to a simple question then no-one should dream of giving him > something because the next question was phrased casually. > > In effect what you say is that if a player refuses to follow the > rules we should give him a good board if an opponent is slightly > casual as well? No, what I meant to say was that we should give him a good board if an opponent is so flagrantly "casual" as to lead us to suspect that his intention really might be to mislead his opponent rather than to obtain clarification of an innocently casual answer. There are those who would argue that it is the person who refrains from asking for clarification who should get a life: If the opponent doesn't tell him what he needs to know, ask, get the answer, and get on with it, rather than guessing the answer while standing poised to call the director to complain about incomplete information and try to get a good score by adjudication if the guess proves wrong. Of course the latter is perfectly permissable and appropriate under the laws, but we can still cater to those who prefer the former course by not making regulations or setting precedents that will penalize them for following it. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 22:06:51 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 22:02:43 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <200502221743.JAA03272@mailhub.irvine.com> References: <200502221743.JAA03272@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222160058.02b41300@pop.starpower.net> At 12:43 PM 2/22/05, Adam wrote: >The last time I played, I was declarer in some contract, and they led >an ace. When I become declarer, I normally ask for the convention >card and look over the opening lead and defensive carding section >immediately, so that I don't have to worry about asking questions; >this time, either the CC was not easily accessible or wasn't filled >out correctly, so I asked whether they led A from A-K. After they >gave their answer, I noticed that I had the king in my own hand. This >caused the opponents to question me after the hand why I asked the >question when I was looking at the king. > >I think my answer was that at the time I asked the question, I had >forgotten I had the king, since I was focused on finding out their >lead conventions (regarding the ace) and wasn't thinking about what >was in my own hand. This probably explains why I don't win more >often---it's too easy for me to get distracted and forget what's going >on. > >But I intensely dislike the idea that whether you ask a question >should depend at all on what's in your hand. Notions like that mean >that you're required to reveal something about your hand to the >opponents. I think this idea should be stamped out wherever >possible. (To me, this includes rules that say you shouldn't ask >about a call if it won't affect your next action---I think rules like >this ought to be stamped out everywhere, but I know this is >controversial.) Not to mention that, after the lead of an ace and a switch to another suit, declarer might actually have two possible lines of play of which one is more likely to succeed if RHO knows from his partner's lead of the ace that he cannot hold the king, while the other is more likely to succeed if RHO doesn't know where the king is. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 22:17:38 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 22:13:30 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <200502221746.JAA03299@mailhub.irvine.com> References: <200502221746.JAA03299@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222160932.02b42c50@pop.starpower.net> At 12:46 PM 2/22/05, Adam wrote: >Ed wrote: > > > I would ask "What are we entitled to know from your auction?" > >This sounds good, in theory. Does it actually work in practice? My >guess would be that in the majority of cases, the resulting response >to a question worded in this particular fashion would be approximately >the same as if you had asked the same question in ancient Etruscan, >but I haven't tried it so I'm just guessing. Ed's question -- or any other equivalent of "Please explain your auction" -- usually works, but that's beside the point. When it doesn't work, it's because you are really interested in some particular ramification of some particular bid that wasn't included in the original explanation that was offered in reply. What virtually never works is following up the original inquiry with an equally generic "Tell me more" (which almost inevitably produces a second explanation at least twice as long as but containing no more information than the first), as opposed to asking about the specific point of interest. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 22:27:22 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 22:23:12 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181757A@lonsc-s-031.europ e.shell.com> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181757A@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222162059.02b45e20@pop.starpower.net> At 12:49 PM 2/22/05, Hinden wrote: > >In addition, a question about a missing queen can be legitimate, as > >many players show a trump queen they do not hold if there is a > >guaranteed 10-card trump fit. > >Quite so. The fact that "showing the queen of trump" is understood to >mean "showing either the queen of trump or enough cards in the suit to >guarantee a 10-card fit" makes it even easier (although not necessary) >to construct hands on which a player holding the trump queen might >legitimately need to know whether or not the opponents auction has >"shown" it. One's whole defensive approach to the hand might depend on >whether one's Qx might take a trick on a losing finesse or will surely >be picked up. To make an automatic score adjustment based on an >opponent holding the queen asking for clarification on that specific >point is to presume that the question can have "no demonstrable bridge >reason", which is simply not true. > >Hence if I agreed with the apparent majority that it doesn't matter how >the question is phrased, I would be forced to come down on the side of >those who would accept asking for clarification about the trump queen >as legitimate rather than as a trigger for the application of >L73F2. But I don't: I believe that the question can be asked in a >suitably neutral manner, or can be phrased in a sufficiently misleading >manner to bring L73F2 into play. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Making a ruling based on the exact wording of how a player asks what >your bid meant seems insane to me. So in a complex auction, after a 3H bid that might or might not be natural, there is no difference between asking, "What does that mean?" and asking, "That doesn't show hearts, does it?" So if the declaring side replies that it really does show hearts, and the partner of the asker finds the killing heart lead anyhow, it's "insane" of us to care which question was asked? Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Tue Feb 22 22:36:53 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Tue Feb 22 22:32:43 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: References: <4219E95E.7000002@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050221172022.02b28aa0@pop.starpower.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20050221204536.01d54560@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222163042.02b48eb0@pop.starpower.net> At 01:54 PM 2/22/05, Roger wrote: >There is, in my narrow mind, once the auction is over, no valid reason to >ask about the trump queen, irrespective of looking at it or not. In fact, >there is no valid reason for asking any question. Sacrilege. Extreme >radicalism you say. Hardly. When it is considered that the declaring side >ought to be telling the agreement to their calls before the OL. Without >being asked. The only conceivable rationale for asking the sorts of questions under discussion is based on the outside possibility that one just might have a personal preference for winning boards at the bridge table rather than in the committee room. If one takes for granted that the latter is just as much fun as the former, then Roger is right, there is no valid reason for asking any question. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From davidgrabiner at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 22:44:59 2005 From: davidgrabiner at comcast.net (grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu) Date: Tue Feb 22 22:45:18 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? Message-ID: <022220052144.1797.421BA7DA000EDF560000070522058860149D0A02070D0E9D090B07900E0B@comcast.net> This is another situation in which the player may have a legitimate reason to ask the question, despite knowing the answer on this hand. For example, if West leads the CA and you have the CKQJ, East does not know who has the CK. Thus, if West leads A from AK, you may feel safe losing a trick to East, who is likely to retun a club to West's presumed AKJ rather than finding the correct shift. If West leads K from AK, then East already knows that the ace was unsupported, and he is thus more likely to find the correct shift if you let him in. Adam Beneschan wrote: > The last time I played, I was declarer in some contract, and they led > an ace. When I become declarer, I normally ask for the convention > card and look over the opening lead and defensive carding section > immediately, so that I don't have to worry about asking questions; > this time, either the CC was not easily accessible or wasn't filled > out correctly, so I asked whether they led A from A-K. After they > gave their answer, I noticed that I had the king in my own hand. This > caused the opponents to question me after the hand why I asked the > question when I was looking at the king. > > I think my answer was that at the time I asked the question, I had > forgotten I had the king, since I was focused on finding out their > lead conventions (regarding the ace) and wasn't thinking about what > was in my own hand. This probably explains why I don't win more > often---it's too easy for me to get distracted and forget what's going > on. > > But I intensely dislike the idea that whether you ask a question > should depend at all on what's in your hand. Notions like that mean > that you're required to reveal something about your hand to the > opponents. I think this idea should be stamped out wherever > possible. (To me, this includes rules that say you shouldn't ask > about a call if it won't affect your next action---I think rules like > this ought to be stamped out everywhere, but I know this is > controversial.) > > -- Adam > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 22 22:59:55 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 22 23:00:12 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050222160058.02b41300@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: My summary of the themes of this thread are: (a) Full disclosure is required by Law. (b) Deceptive questions are prohibited by Law. (c) Ruritanian Asking Bids ("Could your Standard American 1C opening bid really be made with as few as three clubs?") solely designed to transmit UI are prohibited by Law. In my opinion, compliance with (a), (b) and (c) can be assisted by appropriate education by sponsoring organisations in conjunction with appropriate regulations of sponsoring organisations. For example, the ABF Alert regulation includes the general principles behind (a), (b) and (c), in addition to specific rules for specific situations. See: http://www.abf.com.au/events/tournregs/index.html Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From svenpran at online.no Tue Feb 22 23:12:10 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue Feb 22 23:12:24 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <200502221746.JAA03299@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: <000401c5192b$8e4ebc60$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Adam Beneschan > Ed wrote: > > > I would ask "What are we entitled to know from your auction?" > > This sounds good, in theory. Does it actually work in practice? My > guess would be that in the majority of cases, the resulting response > to a question worded in this particular fashion would be approximately > the same as if you had asked the same question in ancient Etruscan, > but I haven't tried it so I'm just guessing. *I* wrote this, and yes it does work. My opponents know that if they do not reveal everything they have learned from their auction they will have a bad time *if* it eventually should appear that some unrevealed information turns out to be important. Regards Sven From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Tue Feb 22 23:39:20 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Tue Feb 22 23:39:43 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <9YVgamIRW5DCFw8s@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: In my opinion, there is a two anomalies in the permitted meanings for Level 4 conventions. (a) Three-way meanings for a 1C opening bid are permitted, but a one-way 15+ hcp strong 1C opening bid seems not to be permitted. (b) Transfer meanings for a 1D opening bid are permitted, but 1D seems not to be permitted as a default opening in a strong club & 5-card major system, if the 1D opening bid does not guarantee length in a particular suit. As a result, the aggressive Aussie relay system Moscito seems to be permitted, but the conservative New Zealand relay system Symmetric Relay (whose opening bids are based on the well-known Precision system) seems not to be permitted when the Level 4 conventions are allowed. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From blml at blakjak.com Wed Feb 23 02:03:40 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed Feb 23 02:05:34 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: References: <9YVgamIRW5DCFw8s@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: rjh wrote > > > > >In my opinion, there is a two anomalies in the permitted >meanings for Level 4 conventions. > >(a) Three-way meanings for a 1C opening bid are permitted, > but a one-way 15+ hcp strong 1C opening bid seems not > to be permitted. I never understand the common question which is to link unrelated matters and ask why. In this case how can the minimum for a strong club be affected by whether we permit a totally unrelated convention? >(b) Transfer meanings for a 1D opening bid are permitted, > but 1D seems not to be permitted as a default opening > in a strong club & 5-card major system, if the 1D > opening bid does not guarantee length in a particular > suit. I do not actually understand this, being too complex for me, but I suspect it is wrong. >As a result, the aggressive Aussie relay system Moscito >seems to be permitted, but the conservative New Zealand >relay system Symmetric Relay (whose opening bids are >based on the well-known Precision system) seems not to >be permitted when the Level 4 conventions are allowed. This seems pretty irrelevant, since it is easy enough to adjust either system enough ot make them playable. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 23 02:23:30 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 23 02:23:53 2005 Subject: [blml] An LA for one side only In-Reply-To: <42177B8F.7020605@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Steve Willner: >I'm not "leapfrogging" it. I'm saying explicitly >that it is the wrong law to apply. The TD and AC >applied it out of familiarity, but in my opinion >they were quite wrong to do so. L16 no more >applies than L27 or L29 or a multitude of others. > >My route is L73B1 to L12A1 to L12C2 (and perhaps >then to 12C3). Unfamiliar no doubt, but it seems >exactly applicable to the case Richard cited (a >beginner alerted his own transfer). L73B1 >explicitly addresses extraneous alerts, and no >indemnity is provided, leading us to 12A1. [snip] Richard Hills: No indemnity provided? In my opinion, Law 73B1 should be construed in parallel with Law 73F, which specifically states in its preamble, "When a violation of the Proprieties described in this law results in damage to an innocent opponent....." In my opinion, the phrase "this law" includes all clauses of Law 73. An infraction of the correct manner for calls and plays laid down by Law 73B1 does not in and of itself cause damage. But..... (a) A consequent deceiving of an opponent which infracts Law 73F2 may cause damage. (b) A consequent use of UI which infracts Law 73F1 may cause damage. And Law 73F1 specifically has a cross-reference to Law 16. Res ipsa loquitur Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Wed Feb 23 03:52:31 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed Feb 23 03:52:51 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <4sJhX1B3HvGCFwXh@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tuesday, Feb 22, 2005, at 03:48 US/Eastern, David Stevenson wrote: > I understood what you were saying, but I am merely saying it does not > happen, and I repeat what Sven and I have said: we don't take a partly > completed board away, and we don't need to. Fair enough. From mike at bellfamily.org.uk Wed Feb 23 03:57:15 2005 From: mike at bellfamily.org.uk (Mike Bell) Date: Wed Feb 23 03:57:22 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <769283414d.Mike@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk> > In my opinion, there is a two anomalies in the permitted > meanings for Level 4 conventions. > > (a) Three-way meanings for a 1C opening bid are permitted, > but a one-way 15+ hcp strong 1C opening bid seems not > to be permitted. I agree with David here - how is whether an artificial+forcing 1C opener may include 12-14 bal related to whether it may include 15 point hands with primary spades? > (b) Transfer meanings for a 1D opening bid are permitted, > but 1D seems not to be permitted as a default opening > in a strong club & 5-card major system, if the 1D > opening bid does not guarantee length in a particular > suit. This is incorrect - at level 2, a 1D opener that is "either natural or a natural 1C opening with no suit longer than clubs" is permitted; Same with a bid showing either clubs, diamonds or a balanced hand. > As a result, the aggressive Aussie relay system Moscito > seems to be permitted, but the conservative New Zealand > relay system Symmetric Relay (whose opening bids are > based on the well-known Precision system) seems not to > be permitted when the Level 4 conventions are allowed. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 23 03:58:28 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 23 03:58:56 2005 Subject: [blml] Obiter dictum In-Reply-To: <000201c5183b$7f13ac60$f16a893e@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Grattan Endicott: >+=+ I am of an old-fashioned opinion that the *first* >priority is to do as the laws require. They appear to say >that you should explain the partnership agreement as to >the meaning of partner's call. > ~ Grattan ~ +=+ W.S. Gilbert: >>A paradox, a paradox, a most ingenious paradox! Richard Hills: In 2008, it would be helpful if the fabulous Lawbook had an explicitly stated methodology which resolved internal inconsistencies. Sure, Law 75A and Law 75C "appear to say" that one should not implicitly or explictly provide MI to the opponents. But Law 75D2 and Law 73A1 "appear to say" that one should not implicitly or explicitly provide UI to partner. And Law 40B "appears to say" that a sponsoring organisation may condone implicit MI, such as the ABF condones with its "self-alerting call" regulation. In my opinion, SO regulations made under Law 40B are hierarchically superior to Law 75A and Law 75C, to the extent of any inconsistency. In my opinion, Law 75A and Law 75C are hierarchically superior to Law 75D2 and Law 73A1, to the extent of any inconsistency. But, until the 2008 Laws specifically confirm my opinion, or the WBF Laws Committee specifically confirms my opinion, then Herman De Wael is entitled to hold a contrary opinion that Law 73A1 is hierarchically superior to Law 75C. :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Wed Feb 23 04:09:19 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed Feb 23 04:09:38 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4F3A1019-8548-11D9-802A-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Tuesday, Feb 22, 2005, at 10:38 US/Eastern, Laval Dubreuil wrote: >> >> The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late play of >> boards on which play was started legally. > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Somebody remember what was the original question ????? > > You are far away from..... > > Pls change the subject title. Since you addressed this message to me, I infer that you think I wrote the bit above about what the thread has "all the time dealt with". I didn't. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 23 04:20:00 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 23 04:20:23 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000501c51866$7fdf5240$6900a8c0@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Sven Pran: >There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in >violation of regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) >should be cancelled and the offenders should be penalized >for disobeying such instructions/regulation. > >The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with >late play of boards on which play was started legally. Richard Hills: Okay, Sven agrees that a board for which all calls were illegal, due to a late start, can be cancelled. Hypothetical questions -> Suppose that only the first call on a board was legal, but all subsequent calls on that board were illegal (because all subsequent calls infracted Law 90B2 "unduly slow play"), then would Sven agree that a TD is also entitled to cancel this board if the TD deems that cancellation is desirable? Or is Sven inconsistent on the possible power of a TD to cancel a board due to an infraction of Law? Caveat -> I agree with Sven that a TD cancelling a partially completed board is *usually* undesirable; I am merely arguing that an "unduly slow play" infraction makes it *always* legal. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 23 04:29:01 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 23 04:29:24 2005 Subject: [blml] Endplay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the "played 2 wrong boards" thread, Ed Reppert asserted: >The Laws define the beginning and end of the auction >period, and the beginning of the play period. They do not >define the end of the play period. Richard Hills asks: Does not Law 65D imply that the play period ends after agreement has been reached on the number of tricks won? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From HGR1gXHpl at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 05:08:46 2005 From: HGR1gXHpl at yahoo.com (Sherry Paulette) Date: Wed Feb 23 06:11:14 2005 Subject: [blml] FW: FW: your private invitation n-88865Hl Message-ID: <190z7fzlsc.fsf@calle78.net> Welcome to America’s newest insurance referral network. We offer term-life coverage at up to 70% off. Just cl.ck here: http://www.up6.org/link.php?id=erci&ID=11 We survey the top life-insurance companies and provide the best-rates available today. Smokers will qualify for special rates. - Cl.ck here: http://www.up6.org/link.php?id=erci&ID=11 Get Your Insurance Quote Today. http://www.up6.org/link.php?id=erci&ID=11 trichinella iodinate [2-3] http://www.up6.org/link.php?id=erci&ID=11 Give us a shot, youve got nothing to lose: http://www.up6.org/link.php?id=erci&ID=11 Regards, Sherry Paulette From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 23 07:16:46 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 23 07:17:08 2005 Subject: [blml] 2nt enquiry over weak 2 or natural In-Reply-To: <7E372429-8469-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: John (MadDog) Probst wrote: >I just don't expect 2NT to be natural. It's inconceivable. >From the script of the classic movie The Princess Bride: INIGO You're sure nobody's following us? VIZZINI As I told you, it would be absolutely, totally, and in all other ways, inconceivable. No one in Guilder knows what we've done. And no one in Florin could have gotten here so fast. Out of curiosity, why do you ask? INIGO No reason. It's only, I just happened to look behind us, and something is there. * * * INIGO (looking down) He's climbing the rope. And he's gaining on us. VIZZINI Inconceivable! * * * VIZZINI He didn't fall? Inconceivable!! INIGO (whirling on Vizzini) You keep using that word -- I do not think it means what you think it means. * * * Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 23 07:38:25 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 23 07:38:47 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Stevenson reported: [snip] >So I gave both sides a 2 VP penalty. > >He told me [no, I am not joking] that I was loathed all over Australia >because of my directing there: [snip] Richard Hills notes: For two years at the Aussie Summer Festival of Bridge, there was an event called the Bridge Buffs Teams. In the inaugural year of the Bridge Buffs Teams, three teams entered, so an American Whist double round robin movement (6 x 20-board matches) was used. My team scored 150 victory points out of a possible 150. In the second year of the Bridge Buffs Teams, seven teams entered, so a director was specifically assigned to the event. In that second event, David Stevenson was the director. There was nothing to loathe about his performance, except that -> (a) My team did not get a second 100% score en route to its second victory, which must "obviously" have been all the fault of the TD, David Stevenson, and (b) My team did not get a chance to win a third time, when the event was cancelled the following year, which must "obviously" have been all the fault of the TD, David Stevenson. :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 23 08:05:15 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 23 08:05:36 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Stevenson (practical): >You are getting very theoretical here. Remember this is a game. > >Unfortunately a lot of players are *very* casual in their disclosure. >Sure, you can leave it until the hand is over, and then try for an >adjustment based on MI, but a lot of people do not like that. In >anything from a medium event down I never call the TD for MI and UI: I >do not want to win that way. > >So what a lot of people do is to try to elicit the correct information >by asking specific questions. It's human, it's reasonable. [snip] Richard Hills (qualms): David's practical advice verges upon an interminable thread we had a few years ago about the so-called Kaplan question. If you know what the opponents' agreement is, and the opponents have given a somewhat inadequate explanation which partner believes is a full explanation, would David's practical advice encompass permitting a supplementary specific Kaplan question in a medium event or a weak event? In that earlier thread, I initially advocated the Kaplan question, but subsequent discussion with the gafiated blmler David Burn convinced me that the Kaplan question was inappropriate in all circumstances. My qualmish semi-practical advice is to: (a) Avoid drawing attention to a trivial MI or UI irregularity. (b) Avoid drawing attention to a non-trivial MI or UI irregularity if the opponents are beginners. (c) Avoid drawing attention to a non-trivial MI or UI irregularity if the opponents are experienced non-experts *and* no damage has been caused by the opponents. (d) Always draw attention to a non-trivial MI or UI irregularity if the opponents are experts. (e) Always draw attention to my own non-trivial irregularities (even though this option is inconsistent with the intent of Law 72B3). Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Tue Feb 22 15:56:46 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Wed Feb 23 08:44:30 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes References: <200502211759.j1LHxP9H007039@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu><421A2237.7090102@cfa.harvard.edu> <6.1.1.1.0.20050222075032.02b4f1c0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <000201c5197b$7c185b50$0ff4f0c3@LNV> Eric: > But it's a simple and workable rule, and leads to > consistent rulings: when a claim involves playing out a particular > suit, and the order in which the cards in the suit will be played > hasn't been mentioned in the claim statement, it is "normal" to play > them from the top down. This statement is not surprising, it does not say that playing the lowest is not normal. If the ACBL does say that playing the deuce from 82 if the player thinks the bare ace is still outside is irrational play we have a problem, even when Grattan agrees with it. ton From toddz at att.net Wed Feb 23 08:56:18 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Wed Feb 23 08:56:35 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421C3722.10109@att.net> richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > In that earlier thread, I initially advocated the Kaplan question, but > subsequent discussion with the gafiated blmler David Burn convinced me > that the Kaplan question was inappropriate in all circumstances. Before anyone asks... (didn't realize that word was in common use.) GAFIA = Getting Away From It All. -Todd (would be nice for dalb to come back.) From svenpran at online.no Wed Feb 23 09:06:09 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed Feb 23 09:06:23 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5197e$888af930$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of richard.hills@immi.gov.au > Sven Pran: > > >There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in > >violation of regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) > >should be cancelled and the offenders should be penalized > >for disobeying such instructions/regulation. > > > >The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with > >late play of boards on which play was started legally. > > Richard Hills: > > Okay, Sven agrees that a board for which all calls were > illegal, due to a late start, can be cancelled. > > Hypothetical questions -> > > Suppose that only the first call on a board was legal, but > all subsequent calls on that board were illegal (because all > subsequent calls infracted Law 90B2 "unduly slow play"), then > would Sven agree that a TD is also entitled to cancel this > board if the TD deems that cancellation is desirable? > > Or is Sven inconsistent on the possible power of a TD to > cancel a board due to an infraction of Law? > > Caveat -> > > I agree with Sven that a TD cancelling a partially completed > board is *usually* undesirable; I am merely arguing that an > "unduly slow play" infraction makes it *always* legal. I do not understand your logic and I resent your insinuation. At a certain time during a round no player may start another board 1: Because end of round has been signaled, or when only a certain amount of time remains for that round 2: Because the Director has given such specific instruction, or 3: Because such has been stated in the conditions of contest. Any board started in violation of any of these conditions should IMO be cancelled by the Director who should then also award a significant PP to both parties involved. But the Director does not have the power to cancel a board that has been started in a correct manner; not even if the players have just managed to look at their cards without yet making any call (Law 17A)! That the Director in this case has the power to award a PP for late play if they do not finish on time is a different matter. Sven From svenpran at online.no Wed Feb 23 09:11:33 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed Feb 23 09:11:47 2005 Subject: [blml] Endplay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c5197f$49ad6ad0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of richard.hills@immi.gov.au > In the "played 2 wrong boards" thread, Ed Reppert asserted: > > >The Laws define the beginning and end of the auction > >period, and the beginning of the play period. They do not > >define the end of the play period. > > Richard Hills asks: > > Does not Law 65D imply that the play period ends after > agreement has been reached on the number of tricks won? True, but Laws 8B and 8C may also give a hint. Sven From hermandw at hdw.be Wed Feb 23 09:32:04 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed Feb 23 09:31:16 2005 Subject: [blml] Which is superior (was Obiter dictum) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421C3F84.6080201@hdw.be> Hello Richard, very good analysis, and one very important comment. richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > > > In my opinion, Law 75A and Law 75C are hierarchically > superior to Law 75D2 and Law 73A1, to the extent of any > inconsistency. > > But, until the 2008 Laws specifically confirm my opinion, > or the WBF Laws Committee specifically confirms my opinion, > then Herman De Wael is entitled to hold a contrary opinion > that Law 73A1 is hierarchically superior to Law 75C. > Let's go for consistency, though. The problem about UI and AI has arisen twice before, in the dark ages of bridge. At some point in the early history of the game people started playing different systems and they realized that it was important that opponents be informed about this. Quickly, one realized that basically there were 2 ways of doing this: asking the player who had made the call or asking his partner. Although no-one at the time had heard or thought about UI or MI, it was decided that the UI was the more important infraction, and since then we ask the partner, and if he's wrong, we adjust. The second time the problem faced was shortly afterwards, when that same partner for the first time answered wrongly. When the bidder then corrected him, it was clear that the first rule was unnecessary unless one added a second one: when partner misexplaines, keep quiet about it. That ultimately turned into L75D2. So in the past, twice already, have the powers that rule bridge decided that it is more important to avoid UI than to avoid MI. Why then should we now decide otherwise. And please also think about this. There's this fellow called HdW who, rightly or wrongly, has decided he is better off not correcting his partners misexplanation by describing correctly his next bid. Now suppose the WBF write a law which force HdW to change his ways. Yet he does not. He explains his actions by "I'm convinced my partner got it right and I continue to explain what I now believ the system is". How are you going to say he's wrong? And what penalty are you going to give for the crime of avoiding to give UI to partner. Because that is what the law would say: you are obliged to give UI to your partner - how the hell are you going to rule on a player who shuns fro that obligation? So please WBF, do indeed clarify this situation - but please in the only sensible direction! -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Wed Feb 23 09:00:37 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Wed Feb 23 09:55:31 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes References: <010c01c518d8$49de86d0$0d9868d5@James><006701c518e2$2632dbf0$47f6f0c3@LNV> <002001c518ed$bdcdbce0$1f9468d5@James> Message-ID: <006f01c51985$68de48b0$0ff4f0c3@LNV> > [Ton] > > > Tell me first what default means, my dictionary shows > > something I don't understand, the way this word is used > > by 'default'. In my opinion laws are per definition > > 'default', the way you use this word. And since I am > > almost sure Grattan overreacted somewhat there might be > > less lunatics than you had to count. > > [Nigel] > > By a default rule I mean a rule that holds unless there is > an explicit statement to the contrary. Sorry, I was not clear. My question was a semantic one. When I look in my dictionary 'default' means absence, failure, or the like. So I don't understand, for a long time already, how it can be used in this context. And back to bridge: when you say 'cash' I don't have an objection making the default position that play is from the top. But here we talked about a declarer who thought to loose a trick to the last outstanding trump. And what is nicer for a player than to 'catch' an ace with the deuce? ton From blml at blakjak.com Wed Feb 23 11:24:10 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed Feb 23 11:25:54 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: rjh wrote > > > > >David Stevenson reported: > >[snip] > >>So I gave both sides a 2 VP penalty. >> >>He told me [no, I am not joking] that I was loathed all over Australia >>because of my directing there: > >[snip] > >Richard Hills notes: > >For two years at the Aussie Summer Festival of Bridge, there was an >event called the Bridge Buffs Teams. > >In the inaugural year of the Bridge Buffs Teams, three teams entered, >so an American Whist double round robin movement (6 x 20-board matches) >was used. My team scored 150 victory points out of a possible 150. > >In the second year of the Bridge Buffs Teams, seven teams entered, so >a director was specifically assigned to the event. In that second >event, David Stevenson was the director. There was nothing to loathe >about his performance, except that -> > >(a) My team did not get a second 100% score en route to its second >victory, which must "obviously" have been all the fault of the TD, >David Stevenson, and > >(b) My team did not get a chance to win a third time, when the event >was cancelled the following year, which must "obviously" have been all >the fault of the TD, David Stevenson. > >:-) That explains that, perfectly. Nothing to do with the fact that it was a complete prat who was upset by a decision. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Wed Feb 23 11:25:50 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed Feb 23 11:27:15 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: rjh wrote > > > > >David Stevenson (practical): > >>You are getting very theoretical here. Remember this is a game. >> >>Unfortunately a lot of players are *very* casual in their disclosure. >>Sure, you can leave it until the hand is over, and then try for an >>adjustment based on MI, but a lot of people do not like that. In >>anything from a medium event down I never call the TD for MI and UI: I >>do not want to win that way. >> >>So what a lot of people do is to try to elicit the correct information >>by asking specific questions. It's human, it's reasonable. > >[snip] > >Richard Hills (qualms): > >David's practical advice verges upon an interminable thread we had a >few years ago about the so-called Kaplan question. > >If you know what the opponents' agreement is, and the opponents have >given a somewhat inadequate explanation which partner believes is a >full explanation, would David's practical advice encompass permitting >a supplementary specific Kaplan question in a medium event or a weak >event? > >In that earlier thread, I initially advocated the Kaplan question, but >subsequent discussion with the gafiated blmler David Burn convinced me >that the Kaplan question was inappropriate in all circumstances. > >My qualmish semi-practical advice is to: > >(a) Avoid drawing attention to a trivial MI or UI irregularity. > >(b) Avoid drawing attention to a non-trivial MI or UI irregularity if > the opponents are beginners. > >(c) Avoid drawing attention to a non-trivial MI or UI irregularity if > the opponents are experienced non-experts *and* no damage has been > caused by the opponents. > >(d) Always draw attention to a non-trivial MI or UI irregularity if the > opponents are experts. > >(e) Always draw attention to my own non-trivial irregularities (even > though this option is inconsistent with the intent of Law 72B3). Why not just be ethical? If you need to know for your own purposes then ask. If you need to ask for partner's sake then don't ask. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From yjnsxoew at go2.pl Wed Feb 23 12:54:02 2005 From: yjnsxoew at go2.pl (Raul Lockett) Date: Wed Feb 23 12:55:03 2005 Subject: [blml] No more D3bt Message-ID: <68FV87FE-0C24-11D7-A3B5-0050E4C05556@iwr.uni-heidelberg.de> How have you been? I have very exciting news! We FINALLY were able to save an extra $450 a month We refinanced our mortgage with a 3.75% lower rate, and closing was fast! The application was free and we got several low rate quotes within days CIick on this link and check it out! http://www.mnm1.com/ Hope you do good with money over the coming year http://www.mnm1.com/gone.asp for NOMORE! From schoderb at msn.com Wed Feb 23 14:10:17 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Wed Feb 23 14:11:17 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181756C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: Of course there is no reason for not answering the question properly in the first place. And, when it is not answered properly, the TD can easily adjust, penalize, or do what will restore equity to the person who asked for an explanation WITHOUT NAMING ANY CARD, and didn't get it. There are two scenarios here - an improper question, and/or an improper answer. Both can be handled by the TD without all the "stuff" that's filling up my e-mail. What appears to be wanted here is something that will relieve the TD from using his head -- a underlying reason for a lot of BLML discussions. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Stevenson" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Queen of trumps? > Hinden, Frances SI-PXS wrote > > > >I personally think that when you ask a question you should have thought > >out > >the ramifications of the question and answer. Having the queen in my hand > >seems to me to be either stupid, information to my partner when the > >answer > >is given, or inexcusable. I don't believe we even played this game years > >ago > >with the wallets and guns on the table we would abide with this kind of > >crap. Babies who were innocent quickly learned innocent has its price. > > > >There is , in my narrow mind, no reason to ask about the Queen WHEN > >LOOKING > >AT IT, other than to get an edge. > > There is also no reason not to answer the question properly in the > first place expect to get an edge. > > Why should we support the law-breakers? > > -- > David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ > Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ > ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= > Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From karel at esatclear.ie Wed Feb 23 15:14:10 2005 From: karel at esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Wed Feb 23 15:15:36 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC Message-ID: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> Anaheim Angels 2000 Summer Nabc case 47 Bidding was W N E S P 1S P 2D 2H 2S P 4S After 9 tricks we come down to S 7 H - D J C xx S AKJ S - H K H - D - D xxxx C - C - S - H xxx D Q C x Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W trumping and cashing the HK is not irrational an so 4S-1. Guys, while that is indeed the ruling under the current laws, common sense should prevail. This was a travesty of justice and a farce. Sure declarer should have said ruffing cashing trumps all mine, but please come on to do anything else may not be irrational but it is surely close to it and most certainly ridiculous. I think the word irrational is far too strong and some common sense leeway should be incoporated into this law and several others. I hope the 2005 edition is abit more attuned. Karel -- http://www.iol.ie From cuy at hotmail.com Wed Feb 23 15:35:17 2005 From: cuy at hotmail.com (cuy@hotmail.com) Date: Wed Feb 23 15:35:31 2005 Subject: [blml] New GreenCard Program 2005! Message-ID: New GreenCard Program 2005! Register now for the 2005 U.S. visa lottery. For the first time, only electronic applications will be accepted. The Diversity Visa Lottery, awards 50,000 permanent immigrant visas, or green cards, each year to people who come from countries with low immigration rates to the United States. To register click here: http://www.register-usa.com/onlineapplstep1.htm GreenCard Support Center USAGreenCard-Registration 2020 Pennsylvania AVE Washington DC, 20006 United States http://www.register-usa.com/index.htm ( This is a one time information to our newsletter subscribers. To unsubscribe click here: http://www.register-usa.com/unsubscribe.htm ) Registration please click here: http://www.register-usa.com/onlineapplstep1.htm From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Wed Feb 23 16:27:20 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Wed Feb 23 16:27:43 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV> Good example. Do we want this contract being one off or made? Or does it depend on the facts: if it is possible that West forgot the trump he is one off, if he knew there was still a trump out he makes? Karel wants it to be made apparently. I more and more tend into the direction to decide it one off , as a penalty for a bad claim. And to improve the consistency. Sorry Herman. ton > Anaheim Angels 2000 Summer Nabc case 47 > > > Bidding was > > W N E S > P > 1S P 2D 2H > 2S P 4S > > > After 9 tricks we come down to > > S 7 > H - > D J > C xx > > S AKJ S - > H K H - > D - D xxxx > C - C - > > S - > H xxx > D Q > C x > > Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W trumping and > cashing the HK is not irrational an so 4S-1. Guys, while that is indeed the > ruling under the current laws, common sense should prevail. This was a travesty > of justice and a farce. Sure declarer should have said ruffing cashing trumps > all mine, but please come on to do anything else may not be irrational but it > is surely close to it and most certainly ridiculous. > > I think the word irrational is far too strong and some common sense leeway should > be incoporated into this law and several others. I hope the 2005 edition is > abit more attuned. > > Karel From hermandw at hdw.be Wed Feb 23 16:29:28 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed Feb 23 16:28:43 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: <421CA158.6010500@hdw.be> Karel, as the member on blml who's usually the softest on claims, let me answer this one: Karel wrote: > Anaheim Angels 2000 Summer Nabc case 47 > > > Bidding was > > W N E S > P > 1S P 2D 2H > 2S P 4S > > > After 9 tricks we come down to > > S 7 > H - > D J > C xx > > S AKJ S - > H K H - > D - D xxxx > C - C - > > S - > H xxx > D Q > C x > > Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W trumping and > cashing the HK is not irrational an so 4S-1. Presumably the AC investigated a lot of things. A few questions spring to mind. How come the S7 is still out when declarer clearly has enough to have drawn trumps before? If claimer can explain why he was unable to draw that trump, I might believe him when he tells me that he knows about the seven being out. Why did claimer not simply say: "ruff, trump an a top heart"? This too is an indication that he did not believe there was a trump out. > Guys, while that is indeed the > ruling under the current laws, common sense should prevail. This was a travesty > of justice and a farce. Sure declarer should have said ruffing cashing trumps > all mine, but please come on to do anything else may not be irrational but it > is surely close to it and most certainly ridiculous. > No Karel, it is not. This is far less unlikely, in my mind, than some of the claims I have tried to stand firm on. I don't believe claimers should be protected by a rule that says that not cashing one extra round of trumps "just to make sure" is irrational. When I play ou a hand like this, I cash the HK without an extra round of trumps and get ruffed as well. The claim laws should remain as they are: award the least number of trics that is at all likely. > I think the word irrational is far too strong and some common sense leeway should > be incoporated into this law and several others. I hope the 2005 edition is > abit more attuned. > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Wed Feb 23 16:37:21 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed Feb 23 16:37:35 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: <001a01c519bd$90fab530$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Karel > Anaheim Angels 2000 Summer Nabc case 47 > > Bidding was > > W N E S > P > 1S P 2D 2H > 2S P 4S > > > After 9 tricks we come down to > > S 7 > H - > D J > C xx > > S AKJ S - > H K H - > D - D xxxx > C - C - > > S - > H xxx > D Q > C x > > Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. > AC rule that W trumping and cashing the HK is not > irrational an so 4S-1. Guys, while that is indeed > the ruling under the current laws, common sense > should prevail. This was a travesty of justice and > a farce. Sure declarer should have said ruffing > cashing trumps all mine, but please come on to do > anything else may not be irrational but it is > surely close to it and most certainly ridiculous. > > I think the word irrational is far too strong and > some common sense leeway should be incorporated > into this law and several others. I hope the 2005 > edition is a bit more attuned. > > Karel Sorry Karel but I completely disagree with you. As you say the laws are very specific on the point that unless declarer mentions (or does) something to the effect showing that he is aware of outstanding trump(s) he shall be deemed to being unaware of such trump. A claiming player should know that he is required to mention everything important in connection with his claim. Failing to do so has consequences and nobody's interest is served by being lenient on this point which inevitably will lead to endless discussions on whether or not a claimer was aware of some point. To me it is "common sense" to have laws and interpretations that prevent such discussions and I certainly hope the claim laws in the future will be at least as severe against an incomplete claim as they are today. As a matter of fact I am not comfortable with the present use of the term "irrational" when we connect the clause "for the class of player". We have all seen the most ridiculous errors made even by world championship class of players and in my opinion the term "irrational" as used in the laws should be interpreted as "irrational, regardless of the class of player". Sven From picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca Wed Feb 23 16:43:35 2005 From: picatou at uqss.uquebec.ca (Laval Dubreuil) Date: Wed Feb 23 16:43:11 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That explains that, perfectly. Nothing to do with the fact that it was a complete prat who was upset by a decision. _______________________________________________________________________ Far away from the original question of this post...... Somebody remember what it was...... May be changing the subject title would be fine..... Laval Du Breuil Quebec City From gordon at gordonrainsford.co.uk Wed Feb 23 16:45:32 2005 From: gordon at gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Wed Feb 23 16:45:54 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: References: <000501c51866$7fdf5240$6900a8c0@WINXP> <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <1818bf55afa34db629037e72c8d3b81a@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 22 Feb 2005, at 20:26, John (MadDog) Probst wrote: > In article , David Stevenson > writes >> John (MadDog) Probst wrote >>> In article <30AB6B08-8468-11D9-A458-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com>, >>> Ed >>> Reppert writes >>>> >>>> On Monday, Feb 21, 2005, at 17:41 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: >>>> >>>>> There can be no doubt that a board that has been started in >>>>> violation >>>>> of >>>>> regulation (e.g. instruction by the Director) should be cancelled >>>>> and >>>>> the >>>>> offenders should be penalized for disobeying such >>>>> instructions/regulation. >>>>> >>>>> The discussion in this thread has all the time dealt with late >>>>> play of >>>>> boards on which play was started legally. >>>> >>>> Then it becomes incumbent on a director, even without a supporting >>>> SO >>>> regulation, to announce at an appropriate time (Canberra's 3 minutes >>>> prior to the nominal end of the round seems reasonable) to announce, >>>> *each and every round*, that no new boards may be started. This, it >>>> seems to me, is the only way, in the face of slow players, to comply >>>> with the director's duty to insure the orderly progress of the game. >>> >>> Noo, I think if the players have been told the regulation, or in a >>> club >>> where the regulation becomes part of standing orders, then that is >>> sufficient. It does require the TD to call "3 minutes" however, or >>> better still "5 minutes" >> >> Better still is to have a timer so everyone always knows how long, >> and >> it gives an audible warning 3 or 5 minutes form the end of the round. > > All this technology is going to put us out of a job. We'll have little > robots going round making book rulings next :) The club I direct on Friday nights now has wireless transmitters to send the results from the tables to the computer as the boards are played. No travellers, no computation errors, no scoring for the TD to do at the end of the evening, and current rankings are displayed on screen throughout most of the evening. -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From gordon at gordonrainsford.co.uk Wed Feb 23 16:55:04 2005 From: gordon at gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Wed Feb 23 16:55:22 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: <6c4223304d5d7f3103cf83c8f4a3790e@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 23 Feb 2005, at 14:14, Karel wrote: > I think the word irrational is far too strong and some common sense > leeway should > be incoporated into this law and several others. I hope the 2005 > edition is > abit more attuned. ...so that players will be encouraged to make even sloppier claims than they currently do? -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From blml at blakjak.com Wed Feb 23 17:00:16 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed Feb 23 17:01:50 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: Karel wrote >Anaheim Angels 2000 Summer Nabc case 47 > > >Bidding was > >W N E S > P >1S P 2D 2H >2S P 4S > > >After 9 tricks we come down to > > S 7 > H - > D J > C xx > >S AKJ S - >H K H - >D - D xxxx >C - C - > > S - > H xxx > D Q > C x > >Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W trumping and >cashing the HK is not irrational an so 4S-1. Guys, while that is indeed the >ruling under the current laws, common sense should prevail. This was a >travesty >of justice and a farce. Sure declarer should have said ruffing cashing trumps >all mine, but please come on to do anything else may not be irrational but it >is surely close to it and most certainly ridiculous. When someone has played a hand out against you, and they have forgotten a trump is out, do they *always* draw trumps? They haven't against me, and furthermore I have lost tricks ot trumps that did not exist, and so have my partners, and I am willing to bet, Karel, so have you. Sure, declarer may have been so foolish as not to say drawing trumps when he knows there is a trump out. In which case why should he get a break? More likely he has forgotten the trump, and if he had played it out he would have lost a trick sometimes. I do not understand the current idea which seems so prevalent of supporting the law-breakers and penalising the innocent. In this case if he had played it out he would have lost a trick a reasonable percentage of the time. Any law that allows him to take all the tricks would be a bad law. Why should he gain tricks by claiming? Law 12C3 does not apply to claims, because there is no adjusted score. But if the next law-book included that [in effect] I could live with that. We know he would have lost a trick some of the time, and some sort of weighting in the number of tricks might be acceptable. But any law that allows declarer to always get a trick he would not have got some of the time is against natural justice, and is one step further along this awful road of penalising n0n-offenders for their opponents' mistakes. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Wed Feb 23 17:00:58 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed Feb 23 17:02:30 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV> Message-ID: Ton Kooijman wrote >Good example. > >Do we want this contract being one off or made? >Or does it depend on the facts: if it is possible that West forgot the >trump he is one off, if he knew there was still a trump out he makes? >Karel wants it to be made apparently. >I more and more tend into the direction to decide it one off , as a penalty >for a bad claim. And to improve the consistency. Sorry Herman. Nice that Ton and I are in complete agreement on this occasion! -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From Frances.Hinden at Shell.com Wed Feb 23 17:09:49 2005 From: Frances.Hinden at Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Wed Feb 23 17:10:08 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101817589@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> From: Karel Anaheim Angels 2000 Summer Nabc case 47 Bidding was W N E S P 1S P 2D 2H 2S P 4S After 9 tricks we come down to S 7 H - D J C xx S AKJ S - H K H - D - D xxxx C - C - S - H xxx D Q C x Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W trumping and cashing the HK is not irrational an so 4S-1. Guys, while that is indeed the ruling under the current laws, common sense should prevail. This was a travesty of justice and a farce. Sure declarer should have said ruffing cashing trumps all mine, but please come on to do anything else may not be irrational but it is surely close to it and most certainly ridiculous. I think the word irrational is far too strong and some common sense leeway should be incoporated into this law and several others. I hope the 2005 edition is abit more attuned. Karel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like everyone else, it seems, I completely disagree. Make a sloppy play and you get punished for it. Make a sloppy claim and you should get punished for it. The law is completely clear on this particular point and I don't think it should be changed. If it were to be changed, I think it should be made stricter on claims, not looser. (e.g. "illegal" rather than "irrational" From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Wed Feb 23 23:09:36 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed Feb 23 23:09:20 2005 Subject: [blml] played 2 wrong boards In-Reply-To: <000001c5197e$888af930$6900a8c0@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Sven Pran: >I do not understand your logic and I resent your insinuation. Richard Hills: Now for *that* statement above, the conclusion logically follows its premise. I apologise to Sven if he feels that me accusing him that he is logically inconsistent was somehow a reflection on his character. My intent was merely to critique his reasoning, a normal function of blml discussion. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 24 01:26:49 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 24 01:27:02 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John (MadDog) Probst: >In a decent London game one can ask "What do I need to know?" and one of >the players will tell you. No pratting around with each player >explaining one bid at a time. Someone says "Dummy is 4432 with A/K and Q >of trump and a stiff; I'm [whatever he is[". I've certainly done this to >Frances and the response has been complete disclosure in just a few >seconds. Richard Hills: Likewise in a decent Canberra game. In addition, on occasions when I am playing the rather unusual Symmetric Relay system, I am careful to explain the rather unusual negative inferences of why particular calls were not selected. Of course, the mere fact that Symmetric Relay is unusual sometimes gives my partnership an unfair advantage. An Aussie international once thought it might be a good idea to interpose a lead-directing double of an artificial 3D relay response with a diamond holding of KJT9. This highly ethical Aussie international avoided first enquiring with a Ruritanian Asking Bid about the 3D call, since she had been silent throughout the previously uncontested auction. Therefore, the Aussie international was unaware that their lead-directing double was demonstrably a bad idea, since pard's 3D relay response, on this occasion, showed a 3-4-5-1 shape. As I held the remaining four diamonds in my hand I redoubled, so my side consequently scored +1240. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 24 01:54:41 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 24 01:54:58 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <769283414d.Mike@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk> Message-ID: Richard Hills: >>but 1D seems not to be permitted as a default opening >>in a strong club & 5-card major system, if the 1D >>opening bid does not guarantee length in a particular >>suit. Mike Bell: >This is incorrect - at level 2, a 1D opener that is >"either natural or a natural 1C opening with no suit >longer than clubs" is permitted; Same with a bid >showing either clubs, diamonds or a balanced hand. Richard Hills: Welcome to blml, Mike. I hope you find this list informative and entertaining. Do you have any cats? Quick summary of Blue (non-Brown Sticker) Symmetric Relay constructive opening calls -> 1C = 15+ any 1H = 10-14 5+ hearts 1S = 10-14 5+ spades 1NT = 11-14 balanced (4333, 4432, or 5332 if a five-card minor) 2C = 10-14 6+ clubs, one-suiter 2D = 10-14 6+ diamonds, one-suiter 2H = 10-14 5+/5+ both majors As a consequence of the approximate Precisionish style of opening bids, with 10-14 hcp and an unbalanced hand of 2 or 3 suits without a 5-card major, an opening bid of 1D is the highly amorphous catch-all bid. Because 1D is so catch-all, the EBU rightly does not permit the 1D opening as a Level 2 convention, but I do not see any fundamental reason why the 1D opening bid should not be given a Level 4 license by the EBU. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru PS -> As previously advised, copies of my Symmetric Relay system notes will be emailed on request. With appropriate tweaking, it seems that Symmetric Relay can be customised to be legally used in some ACBL and English events. From john at asimere.com Thu Feb 24 01:25:10 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Thu Feb 24 02:31:45 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV> Message-ID: In article <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV>, Ton Kooijman writes >Good example. > >Do we want this contract being one off or made? >Or does it depend on the facts: if it is possible that West forgot the >trump he is one off, if he knew there was still a trump out he makes? >Karel wants it to be made apparently. >I more and more tend into the direction to decide it one off , as a penalty >for a bad claim. And to improve the consistency. Sorry Herman. > I think the penalty should effectively apply to the bad claim. We all know that it is probable declarer knew what was going on, but we've all seen the howlers perpetrated by the experts, and it is unfair in my view to penalise the NOs from the possibility of gain. Let's say that a claim is a privilege for a player, as it reduces his thinking load, and that any abuse of the privilege should result in the privilege being withdrawn, and hence we're almost (but not quite) at the level of the defence directing the play. I cannot see how we can do otherwise. > >ton > > >> Anaheim Angels 2000 Summer Nabc case 47 >> >> >> Bidding was >> >> W N E S >> P >> 1S P 2D 2H >> 2S P 4S >> >> >> After 9 tricks we come down to >> >> S 7 >> H - >> D J >> C xx >> >> S AKJ S - >> H K H - >> D - D xxxx >> C - C - >> >> S - >> H xxx >> D Q >> C x >> >> Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W trumping >and >> cashing the HK is not irrational an so 4S-1. Guys, while that is indeed >the >> ruling under the current laws, common sense should prevail. This was a >travesty >> of justice and a farce. Sure declarer should have said ruffing cashing >trumps >> all mine, but please come on to do anything else may not be irrational but >it >> is surely close to it and most certainly ridiculous. >> >> I think the word irrational is far too strong and some common sense leeway >should >> be incoporated into this law and several others. I hope the 2005 edition >is >> abit more attuned. >> >> Karel > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 24 02:42:13 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 24 02:42:28 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:14:10 GMT." <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: <200502240142.RAA14500@mailhub.irvine.com> Karel wrote: > Anaheim Angels 2000 Summer Nabc case 47 > > > Bidding was > > W N E S > P > 1S P 2D 2H > 2S P 4S > > > After 9 tricks we come down to > > S 7 > H - > D J > C xx > > S AKJ S - > H K H - > D - D xxxx > C - C - > > S - > H xxx > D Q > C x > > Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W > trumping and cashing the HK is not irrational an so 4S-1. Guys, > while that is indeed the ruling under the current laws, common sense > should prevail. This was a travesty of justice and a farce. I disagree. Law 70C is clear, and it was put in the Lawbook for a reason. Whatever that reason is, this example seems to exemplify (epitomize?) it beautifully. Also, I don't recall the NABC being called the "Anaheim Angels 2000" NABC. However, I really, really, really do appreciate you getting the name of our baseball team correct, even if the team's owner insists on calling it by an incorrect name. :) :) :) :) :) -- Adam (Mission Viejo, California) From blml at blakjak.com Thu Feb 24 03:12:15 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Thu Feb 24 03:13:49 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: References: <769283414d.Mike@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk> Message-ID: <3U6ippQ$fTHCFwcY@blakjak.demon.co.uk> rjh wrote > > > > >Richard Hills: > >>>but 1D seems not to be permitted as a default opening >>>in a strong club & 5-card major system, if the 1D >>>opening bid does not guarantee length in a particular >>>suit. > >Mike Bell: > >>This is incorrect - at level 2, a 1D opener that is >>"either natural or a natural 1C opening with no suit >>longer than clubs" is permitted; Same with a bid >>showing either clubs, diamonds or a balanced hand. > >Richard Hills: > >Welcome to blml, Mike. I hope you find this list >informative and entertaining. Do you have any cats? > >Quick summary of Blue (non-Brown Sticker) Symmetric >Relay constructive opening calls -> > >1C = 15+ any >1H = 10-14 5+ hearts >1S = 10-14 5+ spades >1NT = 11-14 balanced (4333, 4432, or 5332 if a > five-card minor) >2C = 10-14 6+ clubs, one-suiter >2D = 10-14 6+ diamonds, one-suiter >2H = 10-14 5+/5+ both majors > >As a consequence of the approximate Precisionish style >of opening bids, with 10-14 hcp and an unbalanced hand >of 2 or 3 suits without a 5-card major, an opening bid >of 1D is the highly amorphous catch-all bid. > >Because 1D is so catch-all, the EBU rightly does not >permit the 1D opening as a Level 2 convention, but I >do not see any fundamental reason why the 1D opening >bid should not be given a Level 4 license by the EBU. First, we don't 'license' anything, and have not done for years. It is proving slightly difficult to get the wording changed, however. But anyway, there has been no application to play it, so why should we allow it? Sadly I will tell you that a not totally dissimilar convention was applied for and turned down. Perhaps we do not agree with what should be permitted, and what not? >PS -> As previously advised, copies of my Symmetric >Relay system notes will be emailed on request. With >appropriate tweaking, it seems that Symmetric Relay >can be customised to be legally used in some ACBL and >English events. No doubt. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Thu Feb 24 03:13:39 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Thu Feb 24 03:15:05 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <200502240142.RAA14500@mailhub.irvine.com> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> <200502240142.RAA14500@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: Adam Beneschan wrote >Also, I don't recall the NABC being called the "Anaheim Angels 2000" >NABC. However, I really, really, really do appreciate you getting the >name of our baseball team correct, even if the team's owner insists on >calling it by an incorrect name. :) :) :) :) :) Oh? Is that a baseball team? Now, remind me, what happened when they played my team, the Red Sox? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From adam at irvine.com Thu Feb 24 03:34:08 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Thu Feb 24 03:34:21 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 24 Feb 2005 02:13:39 GMT." Message-ID: <200502240234.SAA14768@mailhub.irvine.com> > Adam Beneschan wrote > >Also, I don't recall the NABC being called the "Anaheim Angels 2000" > >NABC. However, I really, really, really do appreciate you getting the > >name of our baseball team correct, even if the team's owner insists on > >calling it by an incorrect name. :) :) :) :) :) > > Oh? Is that a baseball team? Some seasons, yes. > Now, remind me, what happened when they > played my team, the Red Sox? Our record against your team was 0-0 in the 2002 postseason. -- Adam From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Feb 24 03:40:41 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Thu Feb 24 03:40:52 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <200502231529.j1NFTi0p022449@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502231529.j1NFTi0p022449@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421D3EA9.9080207@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Ton Kooijman" > Sorry, I was not clear. My question was a semantic one. When I look in my > dictionary 'default' means absence, failure, or the like. I think it may be a relatively new usage, becoming popular only in the last decade or two. It relates to absence. For example, a "default rule" is a rule that applies in the absence of any other rule. A good example in the current Laws is the length of the correction period. If there is no other rule in force, it expires half an hour after the end of the session, but SO's are perfectly welcome to have a different rule. We can then say that half an hour is the default rule. > And back to bridge: when you say 'cash' I don't have an objection making the > default position that play is from the top. This is a good example of using "default" with the same meaning. > But here we talked about a > declarer who thought to loose a trick to the last outstanding trump. And > what is nicer for a player than to 'catch' an ace with the deuce? Please, whatever you do, don't make claim resolution depend on reading the claimer's mind. Why should we have to know or care what a claimer might have been thinking? From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Feb 24 03:45:29 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Thu Feb 24 03:45:38 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <200502231534.j1NFY9Ro022906@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502231534.j1NFY9Ro022906@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421D3FC9.1070908@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Karel" > Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W trumping and > cashing the HK is not irrational As others have commented, a completely automatic ruling in the ACBL. I'm surprised it went to an AC. The rule here is that if you don't mention a trump, you don't get to draw it. Clear and simple. As I mentioned in another message, the worst thing we could have would be a rule that requires reading claimer's mind. Eric has it right: as long as claims are ruled uniformly, at least within any one jurisdiction, everyone will be happy. (Well, everyone except perhaps visitors from a different jurisdiction who don't realize the rules are not the same as at home.) From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Feb 24 03:49:41 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Thu Feb 24 03:49:50 2005 Subject: [blml] Queen of trumps? In-Reply-To: <200502221954.j1MJsEuh022338@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502221954.j1MJsEuh022338@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421D40C5.7080406@cfa.harvard.edu> > Ed wrote: >>I would ask "What are we entitled to know from your auction?" > From: Adam Beneschan > This sounds good, in theory. Does it actually work in practice? As Frances wrote, it will work if your opponents are experts. It will also work if my partner and I are your opponents. Probably also for any other BLML readers. However, against 99% of ACBL players, it will probably get you a blank stare or even a statement that your question is illegal. :-( From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Feb 24 03:55:16 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Thu Feb 24 03:55:25 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <200502221534.j1MFYll2027325@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502221534.j1MFYll2027325@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421D4214.10000@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Sven Pran" > The guideline should be clear (and is indeed clear for instance in Norway): Agreed so far. > When the claimer apparently believes ... As noted elsewhere, any need to guess at what claimer believes is a bad idea. > ...(according to his claim statement) But if we rule on the basis of the claim statement, no guessing is required. > the sequence in which he plays his remaining cards is immaterial but in fact > does matter then he shall be deemed to play his cards in a sequence that is > most beneficial to his opponents. This is, I think, the "David Burn rule." It is much better than no rule at all, but some of us think it's too severe. As noted elsewhere, I'd be happier with "suits from the top down" and a few similar but simple rules. Still, _any_ rule is better than random guessing at what claimer might or might not believe. From blml at blakjak.com Thu Feb 24 04:07:38 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Thu Feb 24 04:08:49 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <200502240234.SAA14768@mailhub.irvine.com> References: <200502240234.SAA14768@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: <1CbC8RU6TUHCFws6@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Adam Beneschan wrote >> Adam Beneschan wrote >> >Also, I don't recall the NABC being called the "Anaheim Angels 2000" >> >NABC. However, I really, really, really do appreciate you getting the >> >name of our baseball team correct, even if the team's owner insists on >> >calling it by an incorrect name. :) :) :) :) :) >> >> Oh? Is that a baseball team? > >Some seasons, yes. > >> Now, remind me, what happened when they >> played my team, the Red Sox? > >Our record against your team was 0-0 in the 2002 postseason. How about 2004? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From mike at bellfamily.org.uk Thu Feb 24 04:27:16 2005 From: mike at bellfamily.org.uk (Mike Bell) Date: Thu Feb 24 04:27:10 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b280a424d.Mike@RiscPC02.bellfamily.org.uk> > >>but 1D seems not to be permitted as a default opening > >>in a strong club & 5-card major system, if the 1D > >>opening bid does not guarantee length in a particular > >>suit. > > Mike Bell: > > >This is incorrect - at level 2, a 1D opener that is > >"either natural or a natural 1C opening with no suit > >longer than clubs" is permitted; Same with a bid > >showing either clubs, diamonds or a balanced hand. Please add an 'I believe' to the beginning of that sentence! :( > Richard Hills: > > Welcome to blml, Mike. I hope you find this list > informative and entertaining. Do you have any cats? Thankyou kindly! Yes, I've been a kibitzer for a while now, and I have a cat named Tessa. University prevents me from seeing her as much as I would like, but she doesn't seem to have forgotten who I am. > Quick summary of Blue (non-Brown Sticker) Symmetric > Relay constructive opening calls -> > > 1C = 15+ any > 1H = 10-14 5+ hearts > 1S = 10-14 5+ spades > 1NT = 11-14 balanced (4333, 4432, or 5332 if a > five-card minor) > 2C = 10-14 6+ clubs, one-suiter > 2D = 10-14 6+ diamonds, one-suiter > 2H = 10-14 5+/5+ both majors > > As a consequence of the approximate Precisionish style > of opening bids, with 10-14 hcp and an unbalanced hand > of 2 or 3 suits without a 5-card major, an opening bid > of 1D is the highly amorphous catch-all bid. Ah yes, minor single suiters are opened 2m - I forgot that playing 1D as a 'natural or natural 1C opener' with the single suiters removed wouldn't be permitted as a treatment. Shame, as I'm not convinced that including those hands is too sound! > Because 1D is so catch-all, the EBU rightly does not > permit the 1D opening as a Level 2 convention, but I > do not see any fundamental reason why the 1D opening > bid should not be given a Level 4 license by the EBU. > > > Best wishes > > Richard Hills > Movie grognard and general guru > > PS -> As previously advised, copies of my Symmetric > Relay system notes will be emailed on request. With > appropriate tweaking, it seems that Symmetric Relay > can be customised to be legally used in some ACBL and > English events. From cyzrjvbrawol at evangeltemple.org Thu Feb 24 04:42:08 2005 From: cyzrjvbrawol at evangeltemple.org (Vaughn Herbert) Date: Thu Feb 24 04:49:32 2005 Subject: [blml] Optimize the pleasure in your bedroom!! Message-ID: <4.94614.3132363037393934.8@ientrynetwork.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050224/21fd1a30/attachment.html From hermandw at hdw.be Thu Feb 24 09:44:10 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu Feb 24 09:43:23 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421D3EA9.9080207@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502231529.j1NFTi0p022449@cfa.harvard.edu> <421D3EA9.9080207@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421D93DA.3050400@hdw.be> Steve Willner wrote: > > Please, whatever you do, don't make claim resolution depend on reading > the claimer's mind. Why should we have to know or care what a claimer > might have been thinking? > Because I could easily imagine having the same lay-out, the same moment of claiming, and the same claim statement, and yet rule differently. Consider the case of the missing trump. We have often ruled valid claims without mention to missing trumps. If I have 10 top spades and the 3 other aces, you will allow my claim for 7S even before the dummy is faced. You would not rule that I had forgotten the outstanding trump. In the example that sparked this thread, there is an outstanding trump. We might envisage examples in which it is perfectly clear to us that claimer knows about this trump. So it IS important to know what is in declarer's mind. I don't mind about that - if we are uncertain that he realizes the trump is missing, then we rule against him. But by all means allow us to rule in his favour if we are certain that he did know about the trump. So yes, the current laws require us to look into claimer's mind. And this should remain the case, or we are left with a law that basically equals: if it claims, shoot it! -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From Mikeamosbridge at aol.com Thu Feb 24 10:04:09 2005 From: Mikeamosbridge at aol.com (Mikeamosbridge@aol.com) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:07:38 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes Message-ID: <1e2.362e895a.2f4ef289@aol.com> In a message dated 24/02/2005 08:43:34 GMT Standard Time, hermandw@hdw.be writes: Steve Willner wrote: > > Please, whatever you do, don't make claim resolution depend on reading > the claimer's mind. Why should we have to know or care what a claimer > might have been thinking? > Because I could easily imagine having the same lay-out, the same moment of claiming, and the same claim statement, and yet rule differently. I agree with Herman in this respect - Law 70.C.2 surely requires that I investigate the claimer's mind. I habitually ask Declarer "What's happened in trumps?" in this situation - If I get an answer that goes something like "I had 5 dummy had three, I drew two rounds found they were 3-2 and then needed to ruff a club in dummy - now I've done that I can easily draw the last trump with my A or K " Then I might conclude that declarer was aware of the remaining trump. If there is any lack of clarity then I am likely to conclude that declarer probably was unaware of the existence of an outstanding trump. In my experience, players will often confess that they have forgotten. What's the problem? Consider the case of the missing trump. We have often ruled valid claims without mention to missing trumps. If I have 10 top spades and the 3 other aces, you will allow my claim for 7S even before the dummy is faced. You would not rule that I had forgotten the outstanding trump. In the example that sparked this thread, there is an outstanding trump. We might envisage examples in which it is perfectly clear to us that claimer knows about this trump. So it IS important to know what is in declarer's mind. I don't mind about that - if we are uncertain that he realizes the trump is missing, then we rule against him. But by all means allow us to rule in his favour if we are certain that he did know about the trump. So yes, the current laws require us to look into claimer's mind. And this should remain the case, or we are left with a law that basically equals: if it claims, shoot it! -- Herman DE WAEL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050224/ec315245/attachment.html From hermandw at hdw.be Thu Feb 24 10:09:46 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:08:53 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV> Message-ID: <421D99DA.4030208@hdw.be> Ton Kooijman wrote: > Good example. > > Do we want this contract being one off or made? > Or does it depend on the facts: if it is possible that West forgot the > trump he is one off, if he knew there was still a trump out he makes? > Karel wants it to be made apparently. > I more and more tend into the direction to decide it one off , as a penalty > for a bad claim. And to improve the consistency. Sorry Herman. > No need to say sorry. I don't think you are being consistent though, just harsh. Once you thread into this pool, Ton, you are giving up the possibility of ruling that a claimer with 10 trumps can be ruled to be aware that there are 3 out there. I agree with the ruling in this case. It is far too likely that someone who has left a trump 7 out, while holding AK, has forgotten about that trump, than needed for us to rule that it is "at all likely" that he was unaware about it. But don't use this example in trying to change the way you think claims ought to be resolved. It is a matter of harshness, quantitative not qualitative. I am all in favour of ruling any small piece of remaining doubt against claimer. But please allow me to rule in favour of claimers when I am certain that they would make the tricks I award them. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 24 10:24:47 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:25:04 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421D93DA.3050400@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000a01c51a52$af493c60$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Herman De Wael ............. > So it IS important to know what is in declarer's mind. I don't mind > about that - if we are uncertain that he realizes the trump is > missing, then we rule against him. But by all means allow us to rule > in his favour if we are certain that he did know about the trump. > > So yes, the current laws require us to look into claimer's mind. And > this should remain the case, or we are left with a law that basically > equals: if it claims, shoot it! No Herman, the current claim laws ask us to decide from what the claimer said with his claim statement whether he was aware of the outstanding trump. If he demonstrated with his statement (or his play) that he was indeed aware of the outstanding trump then we accept it. If not we look for a possible line of play consistent with his statement that will give opponents one or more of the claimed tricks. The spirit of the claim laws is (as it appears obviously) that if claimer forgets to mention some important point with his claim then he has overlooked that point, and it is not the director's job to remind him of it. Sven From Mikeamosbridge at aol.com Thu Feb 24 10:33:00 2005 From: Mikeamosbridge at aol.com (Mikeamosbridge@aol.com) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:39:57 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes Message-ID: <1a6.325c9e10.2f4ef94c@aol.com> In a message dated 24/02/2005 09:25:05 GMT Standard Time, svenpran@online.no writes: The spirit of the claim laws is (as it appears obviously) that if claimer forgets to mention some important point with his claim then he has overlooked that point, and it is not the director's job to remind him of it. Sven But Sven then why include 70.C.2 - your reading of the Law Book ignores this and makes it redundant - 70 C.1 says if he didn't mention it - 70.C.2 requires us to make a further test which you are not doing mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050224/c0e56b15/attachment.html From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 24 11:58:06 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 24 11:58:23 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <1a6.325c9e10.2f4ef94c@aol.com> Message-ID: <001d01c51a5f$b8931770$6900a8c0@WINXP> On Behalf Of Mikeamosbridge@aol.com In a message dated 24/02/2005 09:25:05 GMT Standard Time, svenpran@online.no writes: The spirit of the claim laws is (as it appears obviously) that if claimer forgets to mention some important point with his claim then he has overlooked that point, and it is not the director's job to remind him of it. Sven But Sven then why include 70.C.2 - your reading of the Law Book ignores this and makes it redundant - 70 C.1 says if he didn't mention it - 70.C.2 requires us to make a further test which you are not doing Law 70C2 opens for the Director to allow the claim in spite of the claimer not mentioning the outstanding trump if there is no doubt (from his play) that he is aware of it. Quote: (if) "it is at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was unaware that a trump remained in an opponent's hand, and a trick could be lost to that trump by any normal play". "At all likely" is a pretty strong clause. Sven From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 24 12:04:44 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 24 12:05:00 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <421D99DA.4030208@hdw.be> Message-ID: <001e01c51a60$a5456be0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Herman De Wael ...................... > I am all in favour of ruling any small piece of remaining doubt > against claimer. But please allow me to rule in favour of claimers > when I am certain that they would make the tricks I award them. If you are certain solely because of their actions I agree, but if you are certain because of your impressions, beliefs or knowledge of the players involved etc. then that sounds to me like a subjective ruling which I feel should have no place in our work. Regards Sven From hermandw at hdw.be Thu Feb 24 13:37:05 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu Feb 24 13:36:21 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <000a01c51a52$af493c60$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000a01c51a52$af493c60$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <421DCA71.7060304@hdw.be> Sven, you are, as usual, completely next to the point. You react to a posting of Herman and immediately assume he is saying insanities without reading it through. Sven Pran wrote: >>On Behalf Of Herman De Wael > > ............. > >>So it IS important to know what is in declarer's mind. I don't mind >>about that - if we are uncertain that he realizes the trump is >>missing, then we rule against him. But by all means allow us to rule >>in his favour if we are certain that he did know about the trump. >> >>So yes, the current laws require us to look into claimer's mind. And >>this should remain the case, or we are left with a law that basically >>equals: if it claims, shoot it! > > > No Herman, the current claim laws ask us to decide from what the claimer > said with his claim statement whether he was aware of the outstanding trump. > No Sven, the don't. L70C1 tells us we need to listen to what he says, but L70C2 tells us we need to ascertain what he "knew". So it is the Laws themselves who tell us to look into claimer's mind. Don't say it ain't so, when it is. > > If he demonstrated with his statement (or his play) that he was indeed aware > of the outstanding trump then we accept it. If not we look for a possible > line of play consistent with his statement that will give opponents one or > more of the claimed tricks. > No, not his statement: in that case we apply L70C1, and we award the claim. Yes, his play - indeed we need some extraneous factor in order to be certain that he knew the trump was still out. L70C2 is very strict - "at all likely that he was unaware". But there is no need to "demonstrate". Do you believe a claimer who claims in the third round without ever having touched trumps that he is "aware" that there are trumps out? > The spirit of the claim laws is (as it appears obviously) that if claimer > forgets to mention some important point with his claim then he has > overlooked that point, and it is not the director's job to remind him of it. > No that is not the spirit of the laws, it is not even the letter of the laws. The law instruct the TD to determine whether it is likely that he forgot. The laws do not instruct the TD to assume that he forgot. And yes, those two come very close together - but they are not the same. And when I specifically address the small difference between the two, please don't correct me. Because you are wrong. > Sven > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From hermandw at hdw.be Thu Feb 24 13:40:16 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu Feb 24 13:39:30 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <001d01c51a5f$b8931770$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <001d01c51a5f$b8931770$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <421DCB30.1010703@hdw.be> Sven Pran wrote: > On Behalf Of Mikeamosbridge@aol.com > In a message dated 24/02/2005 09:25:05 GMT Standard Time, svenpran@online.no > writes: > The spirit of the claim laws is (as it appears obviously) that if claimer > forgets to mention some important point with his claim then he has > overlooked that point, and it is not the director's job to remind him of it. > > Sven > But Sven then why include 70.C.2 - your reading of the Law Book ignores this > and makes it redundant - 70 C.1 says if he didn't mention it - 70.C.2 > requires us to make a further test which you are not doing > > Law 70C2 opens for the Director to allow the claim in spite of the claimer > not mentioning the outstanding trump if there is no doubt (from his play) > that he is aware of it. > > Quote: (if) "it is at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was > unaware that a trump remained in an opponent's hand, and a trick could be > lost to that trump by any normal play". > > "At all likely" is a pretty strong clause. > > Sven > Yes indeed Sven, it is - but it is not 100% of the time. What Mike and I are talking of is that there can be situations is which it is obvious to all at the table that declarer did NOT forget the outstanding trump, and that he then gets his claim. You apparently maintain that there is no such possibility. You are wrong. In fact most of the time the opponents will agree that declarer knew about the outstanding trump. They will ask the director to rule anyway. The director must then point them to L70C2 and rule in favour of claimer. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From hermandw at hdw.be Thu Feb 24 13:43:05 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu Feb 24 13:42:20 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <001e01c51a60$a5456be0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <001e01c51a60$a5456be0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <421DCBD9.90804@hdw.be> Sven Pran wrote: >>On Behalf Of Herman De Wael > > ...................... > >>I am all in favour of ruling any small piece of remaining doubt >>against claimer. But please allow me to rule in favour of claimers >>when I am certain that they would make the tricks I award them. > > > If you are certain solely because of their actions I agree, but if you are > certain because of your impressions, beliefs or knowledge of the players > involved etc. then that sounds to me like a subjective ruling which I feel > should have no place in our work. > No why would you think I'd rule based on my knowledge of the players? Of course I only rule based on their actions. The example Mike Amos gave, with the claimer clearly stating what happened during play, and why he left an outstanding trump before claiming, is just such an example. Mike produced a perfectly clear case, and he did not feel need to mention that the claimer was called Zia or some such. So I agree with the second part of your statement, I tell you it does not apply, and I am left with the first part: > If you are certain solely because of their actions I agree Of which we take note. > Regards Sven > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From icbonnyaawa at hotmail.com Thu Feb 24 14:01:55 2005 From: icbonnyaawa at hotmail.com (Bertha Cowan) Date: Thu Feb 24 13:58:58 2005 Subject: [blml] Vecodiin, Viiagra are Cheeap sn11gk Message-ID: Look at this of-fers: Vi-codinn - 225.00 (90 pi-lls) Hydro-codonee - 297.00 (90 pi=lls) Valliuum - 153.00 (90 pi-lls) Viagraa - 270.00 (90 pi-lls) Cia-llis - 348.00 (90 pi-lls) Codeinne - 126.00 (90 pi-lls) Xa-naax - 171.00 (90 pi-lls) All orderrs are delivered by Fedex with full tracking 24/7. Satisfactiionnss guaaranteeed... http://th4uisl.com/_fd5977142df59d3662baa654773c6a8e/ This is 1 -time mailing. N0-re m0val are re'qui-red xfaHAjxtAOkmYLjtgMCAb0zYTnEJzAwG From twm at cix.co.uk Thu Feb 24 14:14:00 2005 From: twm at cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Thu Feb 24 14:14:50 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <001e01c51a60$a5456be0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven wrote: > > On Behalf Of Herman De Wael > ...................... > > I am all in favour of ruling any small piece of remaining doubt > > against claimer. But please allow me to rule in favour of claimers > > when I am certain that they would make the tricks I award them. > > If you are certain solely because of their actions I agree, but if you > are certain because of your impressions, beliefs or knowledge of the > players involved etc. then that sounds to me like a subjective ruling > which I feel should have no place in our work. Feel as you wish - the current laws require us to rule based on "the class of player", such judgements are always subjective. As to the current case the meaning of "irrational" isn't really the crux of the issue. The decision as -1 or = is based on whether declarer is judged "unaware" of the outstanding trump. Had trick 8 involved (eg) declarer ruffing a small H in dummy with the S6 I would be convinced of his "awareness". OTOH had the first round of trumps involved a small C being thrown by S I would be convinced that declarer was "unaware". Obviously it is irrational for an "aware" player to play HK first, just as it is "normal*" for an unaware player to start with HK. *Actually there undoubtedly exists a "class of player" (the extremely careful) for whom HK before SAK is irrational but the failure of declarer to state a line of claim is sufficient evidence for me to rule that he is not in this class. Tim From twm at cix.co.uk Thu Feb 24 14:14:00 2005 From: twm at cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Thu Feb 24 14:14:53 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <000a01c51a52$af493c60$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven wrote: > If he demonstrated with his statement (or his play) that he was indeed > aware of the outstanding trump then we accept it. This is not the threshhold set by law. We are required to judge whether "it is at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was unaware that a trump remained in an opponent's hand". IE he need not "prove" his awareness, it is enough that such awareness be deemed overwhelmingly likely. Tim From ehaa at starpower.net Thu Feb 24 14:36:28 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Thu Feb 24 14:32:24 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224082955.02db4af0@pop.starpower.net> At 09:14 AM 2/23/05, karel wrote: >W N E S > P >1S P 2D 2H >2S P 4S > >After 9 tricks we come down to > > S 7 > H - > D J > C xx > >S AKJ S - >H K H - >D - D xxxx >C - C - > > S - > H xxx > D Q > C x > >Lead is in dummy and west claims, no stated line. AC rule that W >trumping and >cashing the HK is not irrational an so 4S-1. Guys, while that is >indeed the >ruling under the current laws, common sense should prevail. This was >a travesty >of justice and a farce. Sure declarer should have said ruffing >cashing trumps >all mine, but please come on to do anything else may not be irrational >but it >is surely close to it and most certainly ridiculous. > >I think the word irrational is far too strong and some common sense >leeway should >be incoporated into this law and several others. I hope the 2005 >edition is >abit more attuned. Nonsense. The AC was absolutely correct. Anyone who is sufficiently knowledgeable, wise and experienced to merit a presumption that he could not possibly have forgotten an outstanding trump is sufficiently knowledgeable, wise and experienced to know that he must mention the outstanding trump when he claims. IOW, if he forgot to make it clear that he knows there's a trump out, he is ipso facto not in the "class of player" who might not just as easily forget it was there. Down one. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Thu Feb 24 15:05:15 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:01:04 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <421D99DA.4030208@hdw.be> References: <421c8fb2.28bd.0@esatclear.ie> <001f01c519bc$32aad650$b9f4f0c3@LNV> <421D99DA.4030208@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224085020.02db7eb0@pop.starpower.net> At 04:09 AM 2/24/05, Herman wrote: >Ton Kooijman wrote: > >>Good example. >>Do we want this contract being one off or made? >>Or does it depend on the facts: if it is possible that West forgot the >>trump he is one off, if he knew there was still a trump out he makes? >>Karel wants it to be made apparently. >>I more and more tend into the direction to decide it one off , as a >>penalty >>for a bad claim. And to improve the consistency. Sorry Herman. > >No need to say sorry. >I don't think you are being consistent though, just harsh. >Once you thread into this pool, Ton, you are giving up the possibility >of ruling that a claimer with 10 trumps can be ruled to be aware that >there are 3 out there. That's a ludicrous leap; Ton has in no way "given up" on that possibility. It is irrational, for any class of player, holding 10 trumps and three aces, having not yet seen dummy, to think that his hand actually contains 13 trumps. It is not irrational for a player with 10 trumps who has drawn two rounds and abandoned the suit to not have noticed that an opponent showed out on the first round. There's no inconsistency in presuming that (a) a player who has not yet played to trick one knows that there are some outstanding trump, and (b) a player who has already drawn some trumps but stopped before they were all gone may not know exactly how many are left. I argue that as "class of player" increases, it becomes *more* relatively likely that the player would forget there's a trump out than that he would forget to mention it when claiming in the middle of a hand in which the play is complex enough to require drawing some trumps early, doing something else, then drawing the rest of the trumps in the end position. That is not in any way analogous to knowing before dummy comes down that there are some cards in the trump suit that are not in his hand. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From karel at esatclear.ie Thu Feb 24 15:31:28 2005 From: karel at esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:36:32 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224082955.02db4af0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: >W N E S > P >1S P 2D 2H >2S P 4S > >After 9 tricks we come down to > > S 7 > H - > D J > C xx > >S AKJ S - >H K H - >D - D xxxx >C - C - > > S - > H xxx > D Q > C x > [snip ...] Nonsense. The AC was absolutely correct. Anyone who is sufficiently knowledgeable, wise and experienced to merit a presumption that he could not possibly have forgotten an outstanding trump is sufficiently knowledgeable, wise and experienced to know that he must mention the outstanding trump when he claims. IOW, if he forgot to make it clear that he knows there's a trump out, he is ipso facto not in the "class of player" who might not just as easily forget it was there. Down one. +++ Yes and I must say alot of the laws are based of such grisly cold logic. He didn't do x then he must have meant y and isn't capable of doing x. Now before I go any further I am not saying the current law is wrong ... it is fine and works perfectly well in 99% of the situations ... but .. there is no allowance for abit of common sense. If someone claimed against me with the above hand I wouldn't question it for one simple reason. It assumes declarer is going to ruff the diamond and then deliberately choose to play a non trump (HK) 1st. This is a 33% choice initially. It also ignores the fact that South bid hearts and that N lead Ax strongly indicating a doubleton. This argues even more strongly for declarer cashing trumps first. Finally a player will intuitively lead out his high trumps before any side winners. It has been beaten into him ... draw trumps, draw trumps. Why didn't the AC poll 20,30,40,200,2000 ... hey 20000000 players and ask them on winning the ruff how they would play the hand ?? ... hehehe because they would get SA,SA,SA,SA,SA ... It simply comes down to the word irrational. It is far too strong a word. There are very few situations in bridge very few indeed which meet the requirement of irrational. There are many many more situations which meet the requirement, "highly unlikely" or similar wording. It was highly unlikely that declarer would ruff and then try to cash an outside winner before trumps, but irrational .. off course not ... but that is an unjustifibly high standard. To meet the standard of irrational, all we need is one person somewhere. You will always find that one person. So what. what about the other 99.9%?? And finally anyone who can look at the above case and genuinely feel that NS deserved a trick really needs to take a good look at themselves. Hiding behind some law which was meant to be applied to the majority of suituations doesn't make the above ruling correct. N/S do not deserve a trick. K. From ehaa at starpower.net Thu Feb 24 15:34:06 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:38:58 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <1a6.325c9e10.2f4ef94c@aol.com> References: <1a6.325c9e10.2f4ef94c@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224091935.02db3440@pop.starpower.net> At 04:33 AM 2/24/05, Mikeamosbridge wrote: >In a message dated 24/02/2005 09:25:05 GMT Standard Time, >svenpran@online.no writes: >The spirit of the claim laws is (as it appears obviously) that if claimer >forgets to mention some important point with his claim then he has >overlooked that point, and it is not the director's job to remind him >of it. > >Sven > >But Sven then why include 70.C.2 - your reading of the Law Book >ignores this and makes it redundant - 70 C.1 says if he didn't mention >it - 70.C.2 requires us to make a further test which you are not doing I don't think he has ignored L70C2, but has rather excluded it from consideration by virtue of the key word "important". We apply L70C2 when the fact that there are trumps outstanding is so obvious as to not reach the threshhold of being "important" to the claim. This simply doesn't happen when the play of the hand requires drawing some trumps early but deferring drawing the remainder for some reason -- it is prima facie an "important" aspect of how the hand is being played. We have L70C2 so we can, for example, allow an early claim by a declarer who has not yet begun drawing trump but has failed to mention that he knows he didn't start with all 13 of them. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050224/19588e17/attachment.html From blml at blakjak.com Thu Feb 24 15:45:43 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:47:35 2005 Subject: [blml] IBLF and IAF Message-ID: For the last two or three days IBLF and IAF do not seem to have been working. I believe it was something to do with the web-hosting company. Anyway, they seem to be back. To you remind you, the URLs are: International Bridge Laws forum http://blakjak.com/iblf.htm International Appeals forum http://blakjak.com/iacf.htm -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From ehaa at starpower.net Thu Feb 24 15:58:13 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:54:03 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421DCA71.7060304@hdw.be> References: <000a01c51a52$af493c60$6900a8c0@WINXP> <421DCA71.7060304@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224094610.02db5a80@pop.starpower.net> At 07:37 AM 2/24/05, Herman wrote: >Sven Pran wrote: > >>If he demonstrated with his statement (or his play) that he was >>indeed aware >>of the outstanding trump then we accept it. If not we look for a possible >>line of play consistent with his statement that will give opponents >>one or >>more of the claimed tricks. > >No, not his statement: in that case we apply L70C1, and we award the >claim. >Yes, his play - indeed we need some extraneous factor in order to be >certain that he knew the trump was still out. L70C2 is very strict - >"at all likely that he was unaware". But there is no need to >"demonstrate". Do you believe a claimer who claims in the third round >without ever having touched trumps that he is "aware" that there are >trumps out? > >>The spirit of the claim laws is (as it appears obviously) that if claimer >>forgets to mention some important point with his claim then he has >>overlooked that point, and it is not the director's job to remind him >>of it. > >No that is not the spirit of the laws, it is not even the letter of >the laws. >The law instruct the TD to determine whether it is likely that he >forgot. The laws do not instruct the TD to assume that he forgot. But unless the fact that there are trumps out are not "important" to the claim -- i.e. unless the need to draw them would be obvious even to a beginner -- than the declarer must have forgotten something. The probability that he forgot about an outstanding trump and the probability that he forgot about the need to say so when claiming must add to 100%. When logical necessity requires the TD to assume that the claimer forgot *something*, it's hard to imagine how he could reach the finding that the probabilities of exactly which it was that declarer forgot were 0 and 100% respectively. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From Frances.Hinden at Shell.com Thu Feb 24 15:56:39 2005 From: Frances.Hinden at Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:57:00 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101817592@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> >W N E S > P >1S P 2D 2H >2S P 4S > >After 9 tricks we come down to > > S 7 > H - > D J > C xx > >S AKJ S - >H K H - >D - D xxxx >C - C - > > S - > H xxx > D Q > C x > [snip ...] Nonsense. The AC was absolutely correct. Anyone who is sufficiently knowledgeable, wise and experienced to merit a presumption that he could not possibly have forgotten an outstanding trump is sufficiently knowledgeable, wise and experienced to know that he must mention the outstanding trump when he claims. IOW, if he forgot to make it clear that he knows there's a trump out, he is ipso facto not in the "class of player" who might not just as easily forget it was there. Down one. +++ Yes and I must say alot of the laws are based of such grisly cold logic. He didn't do x then he must have meant y and isn't capable of doing x. Now before I go any further I am not saying the current law is wrong ... it is fine and works perfectly well in 99% of the situations ... but .. there is no allowance for abit of common sense. If someone claimed against me with the above hand I wouldn't question it for one simple reason. It assumes declarer is going to ruff the diamond and then deliberately choose to play a non trump (HK) 1st. This is a 33% choice initially. It also ignores the fact that South bid hearts and that N lead Ax strongly indicating a doubleton. This argues even more strongly for declarer cashing trumps first. Finally a player will intuitively lead out his high trumps before any side winners. It has been beaten into him ... draw trumps, draw trumps. Why didn't the AC poll 20,30,40,200,2000 ... hey 20000000 players and ask them on winning the ruff how they would play the hand ?? ... hehehe because they would get SA,SA,SA,SA,SA ... ------------------------------------------------------------- Exactly. The player at the table claimed, that is _he_ said how he would play the hand. He didn't say SA. We don't need to poll other players, we already know what he said. From ehaa at starpower.net Thu Feb 24 16:13:37 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:09:41 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <421DCBD9.90804@hdw.be> References: <001e01c51a60$a5456be0$6900a8c0@WINXP> <421DCBD9.90804@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224100239.02aef2d0@pop.starpower.net> At 07:43 AM 2/24/05, Herman wrote: >No why would you think I'd rule based on my knowledge of the players? Don't you? Aren't we required to? Hasn't the WBF made it perfectly clear that the "class of player involved" must be considered when ruling on faulty claims? Doesn't Zia deserve the benefit of the doubt on bad claims just because he is Zia, and not you or I? >Of course I only rule based on their actions. The example Mike Amos >gave, with the claimer clearly stating what happened during play, and >why he left an outstanding trump before claiming, is just such an >example. Mike produced a perfectly clear case, and he did not feel >need to mention that the claimer was called Zia or some such. Silly Mike. Silly Herman. Trying to rule based on common sense, logic, and the words of the law as they are actually printed in the lawbook. Don't you know about the WBF's "interpretation" of what used to be sensible claims laws? You should; you both read BLML, which is one of the very few routes past that "Beware of the leopard" sign. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From hermandw at hdw.be Thu Feb 24 16:25:01 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:24:15 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224094610.02db5a80@pop.starpower.net> References: <000a01c51a52$af493c60$6900a8c0@WINXP> <421DCA71.7060304@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050224094610.02db5a80@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <421DF1CD.8080802@hdw.be> Eric Landau wrote: > > But unless the fact that there are trumps out are not "important" to the > claim -- i.e. unless the need to draw them would be obvious even to a > beginner -- than the declarer must have forgotten something. The > probability that he forgot about an outstanding trump and the > probability that he forgot about the need to say so when claiming must > add to 100%. When logical necessity requires the TD to assume that the > claimer forgot *something*, it's hard to imagine how he could reach the > finding that the probabilities of exactly which it was that declarer > forgot were 0 and 100% respectively. > Look Eric, the laws explicitely demand two conditions (three even, but that aside), so they must imagine that one can exist without the other. I don't care for what reason we are getting at Law 70C, all I know is I have to apply it. And I can certainly cite examples where 70C2 is not fulfilled. Actually, I don't have to say more. Sven was wrong in assuming that when L70C1 is fulfilled, that's that. Let me elaborate on one more thing. Don't forget that the laws on issueing a claim statement are, and rightly so, very strict. Sometimes we have to rule on a claim, when we know the claimer did not intend to claim. In many of those cases, there is no claim statement, not because claimer forgot to issue one, but simply because he did not intend to claim and is now forced to do so. "Doesn't matter what you play, I think I have all tricks". "Ah, that's a claim" "No, it's not" "Yes, it is" "No" "Yes, Director!" TD: "yes?" "This gentleman claimed" "No I did not" "Yes, he said all tricks were his" TD: "I'm afraid that's indeed a claim sir" "I don't care, they're all mine anyway" "I still have a trump" "I know that, I come and collect it straight away" "Director, he did not say that straight away" ... I'm afraid that the TD needs to rule that L70C1 applies, but certainly he can be very certain that L70C2 does not. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From hermandw at hdw.be Thu Feb 24 16:37:35 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:37:01 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421DF4BF.2020808@hdw.be> Karel wrote: > > And finally anyone who can look at the above case and genuinely feel that NS > deserved a trick really needs to take a good look at themselves. Hiding > behind some law which was meant to be applied to the majority of suituations > doesn't make the above ruling correct. N/S do not deserve a trick. > I feel that Karel is asking a different question than the one we've been debating so far. I'm sure Karel agrees with us that L70C2 applies - it is likely that this declarer has forgotten about the outstanding trump. What Karel tries to tell us is that a player who is left with AK of trumps and a King he knows to be high will play the top trumps first, and only then the other suit. I don't think you are right there, Karel. It feels natural to me to not keep drawing trumps, but to play other suits first, and trumps last. In fact in a number of cases I have defended this to be the (only) normal line. As for the line of drawing one extra round of trumps, and then switch to the other suits, I fear that is a safety play that we should not allow from a claimer. So I'm afraid that IMO the AC got this one right, Karel. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From blml at blakjak.com Thu Feb 24 17:06:47 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Thu Feb 24 17:08:41 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421DCB30.1010703@hdw.be> References: <001d01c51a5f$b8931770$6900a8c0@WINXP> <421DCB30.1010703@hdw.be> Message-ID: Herman De Wael wrote >Sven Pran wrote: > >> On Behalf Of Mikeamosbridge@aol.com >> In a message dated 24/02/2005 09:25:05 GMT Standard Time, svenpran@online.no >> writes: >> The spirit of the claim laws is (as it appears obviously) that if claimer >> forgets to mention some important point with his claim then he has >> overlooked that point, and it is not the director's job to remind him of it. >> Sven >> But Sven then why include 70.C.2 - your reading of the Law Book ignores this >> and makes it redundant - 70 C.1 says if he didn't mention it - 70.C.2 >> requires us to make a further test which you are not doing >> Law 70C2 opens for the Director to allow the claim in spite of the >>claimer >> not mentioning the outstanding trump if there is no doubt (from his play) >> that he is aware of it. >> Quote: (if) "it is at all likely that claimer at the time of his >>claim was >> unaware that a trump remained in an opponent's hand, and a trick could be >> lost to that trump by any normal play". >> "At all likely" is a pretty strong clause. >> Sven > >Yes indeed Sven, it is - but it is not 100% of the time. >What Mike and I are talking of is that there can be situations is which >it is obvious to all at the table that declarer did NOT forget the >outstanding trump, and that he then gets his claim. >You apparently maintain that there is no such possibility. You are wrong. The traditional example of where declarer is aware of an outstanding trump is where declarer has 13 top tricks if trumps are not 5-0. He draws one round, then says "All mine". It is obvious he is aware fo the three remaining trumps in this scenario. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Thu Feb 24 17:12:16 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Thu Feb 24 17:13:58 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224082955.02db4af0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <4tNxXkGgzfHCFwfq@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Karel wrote >And finally anyone who can look at the above case and genuinely feel that NS >deserved a trick really needs to take a good look at themselves. Hiding >behind some law which was meant to be applied to the majority of suituations >doesn't make the above ruling correct. N/S do not deserve a trick. Well, E/W *certainly* do not deserve the rest of the tricks. If i was declarer you wouldn't need the TD: immediately I realised what an idiot I had made of myself I would concede a trick. You talk of common sense: common sense and experience means that you know that all people make silly mistakes. But for people to hide their mistakes behind the Laws is not good for the game. Do you really want to win by being given tricks by the Laws after you have been made a mistake? I don't. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From twm at cix.co.uk Thu Feb 24 17:24:00 2005 From: twm at cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Thu Feb 24 17:25:01 2005 Subject: [blml] Anaheim 2000 NABC In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224082955.02db4af0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: Eric wrote: > Nonsense. The AC was absolutely correct. Anyone who is sufficiently > knowledgeable, wise and experienced to merit a presumption that he > could not possibly have forgotten an outstanding trump is sufficiently > knowledgeable, wise and experienced to know that he must mention the > outstanding trump when he claims. Why? It is entirely possible that a player normally plays in a milieu where his opponents are not so stupid/litigious that a trivial claim like this requires any elaboration. The TD/AC were, quite probably, correct to judge that declarer was unaware of the trump. However, each case should be judged on its merits - generalisations such as the above are neither necessary nor desirable. Tim From ehaa at starpower.net Thu Feb 24 18:19:50 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Thu Feb 24 18:15:39 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421DF1CD.8080802@hdw.be> References: <000a01c51a52$af493c60$6900a8c0@WINXP> <421DCA71.7060304@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20050224094610.02db5a80@pop.starpower.net> <421DF1CD.8080802@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224114250.02aec7b0@pop.starpower.net> At 10:25 AM 2/24/05, Herman wrote: >Let me elaborate on one more thing. Don't forget that the laws on >issueing a claim statement are, and rightly so, very strict. Sometimes >we have to rule on a claim, when we know the claimer did not intend to >claim. In many of those cases, there is no claim statement, not >because claimer forgot to issue one, but simply because he did not >intend to claim and is now forced to do so. > >"Doesn't matter what you play, I think I have all tricks". >"Ah, that's a claim" >"No, it's not" >"Yes, it is" >"No" >"Yes, Director!" >TD: "yes?" >"This gentleman claimed" >"No I did not" >"Yes, he said all tricks were his" >TD: "I'm afraid that's indeed a claim sir" >"I don't care, they're all mine anyway" >"I still have a trump" >"I know that, I come and collect it straight away" >"Director, he did not say that straight away" "A claim should be accompanied at once by a clarification..." I hardly think we're stretching the law here if we read "at once" to mean immediately upon discovering that one has unknowingly claimed. If the player "is now forced to do so", as Herman correctly puts it, that means he must do so now, not invent time travel in order to have done so earlier. At my club the conversation goes: >"Doesn't matter what you play, [] I have all tricks". [I have elided >"I think" because at my club that might be considered sufficient to >differentiate a casual statement from a claim, but that's off the >point here.] >"Ah, that's a claim" >"No, it's not" >"Yes, it is" >"No" >"Yes, Director!" >TD: "yes?" >"This gentleman claimed" >"No I did not" >"Yes, he said all tricks were his" >TD: "I'm afraid that's indeed a claim sir. Please state your line of >play." Isn't that widely accepted as not just legal, but routine? Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 24 18:17:26 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 24 18:17:42 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421DF1CD.8080802@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000801c51a94$b6634c10$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Herman De Wael ................. > Let me elaborate on one more thing. Don't forget that the laws on > issueing a claim statement are, and rightly so, very strict. Sometimes > we have to rule on a claim, when we know the claimer did not intend to > claim. In many of those cases, there is no claim statement, not > because claimer forgot to issue one, but simply because he did not > intend to claim and is now forced to do so. > > "Doesn't matter what you play, I think I have all tricks". > "Ah, that's a claim" > "No, it's not" > "Yes, it is" > "No" > "Yes, Director!" > TD: "yes?" > "This gentleman claimed" > "No I did not" > "Yes, he said all tricks were his" > TD: "I'm afraid that's indeed a claim sir" > "I don't care, they're all mine anyway" > "I still have a trump" > "I know that, I come and collect it straight away" > "Director, he did not say that straight away" > ... > I'm afraid that the TD needs to rule that L70C1 applies, but certainly > he can be very certain that L70C2 does not. According to your dialog above the statement: "Yes, he said all tricks were his" is a direct lie which the Director should have been able to sort out. I am not so sure that muttering "I think I have all tricks" is necessarily a claim? It is definitely not a firm statement that the player will win a specific number of tricks, it is a statement to the fact that he believes he will do so and that is not exactly the same. This is more like thinking loud, and I believe the Director has to be a bit careful how he rules in such situations. Yes, I have experienced them and so far I have always been faced with the need to determine whether the player actually claimed or just uttered an opinion with no intention to claim. The dialog above gives me the impression of a player who rather unethically tries to obtain a trick he knows that he would have no chance of securing in "normal" play. How I would have ruled depends a lot on the impression I get when arriving at the table. Sven From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 24 18:35:46 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 24 18:36:03 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224114250.02aec7b0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <000b01c51a97$4642bd50$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Eric Landau ................. > "A claim should be accompanied at once by a clarification..." I hardly > think we're stretching the law here if we read "at once" to mean > immediately upon discovering that one has unknowingly claimed. If the > player "is now forced to do so", as Herman correctly puts it, that > means he must do so now, not invent time travel in order to have done > so earlier. At my club the conversation goes: > > >"Doesn't matter what you play, [] I have all tricks". [I have elided > >"I think" because at my club that might be considered sufficient to > >differentiate a casual statement from a claim, but that's off the > >point here.] > >"Ah, that's a claim" > >"No, it's not" > >"Yes, it is" > >"No" > >"Yes, Director!" > >TD: "yes?" > >"This gentleman claimed" > >"No I did not" > >"Yes, he said all tricks were his" > >TD: "I'm afraid that's indeed a claim sir. Please state your line of > >play." > > Isn't that widely accepted as not just legal, but routine? Just to cast my vote: If I rule that the player has actually made a claim I would probably allow him to make his statement at this time but I would consider possible parts of this statement that looked like afterthought caused by the claim being contested to be unacceptable. Sven From spakx at markology.com Thu Feb 24 18:35:07 2005 From: spakx at markology.com (Elvia Floyd) Date: Thu Feb 24 18:46:25 2005 Subject: [blml] do you hate traffic cameras? Message-ID: <200201300004.g6A72XX02568@eng2.beaverton.ibm.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050224/2ddfa05c/attachment.html From hermandw at hdw.be Thu Feb 24 21:07:10 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu Feb 24 21:06:23 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <000801c51a94$b6634c10$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000801c51a94$b6634c10$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <421E33EE.3020409@hdw.be> Sven Pran wrote: >>On Behalf Of Herman De Wael > >> >>"Doesn't matter what you play, I think I have all tricks". >>"Ah, that's a claim" >> >>"Yes, he said all tricks were his" > > According to your dialog above the statement: "Yes, he said all tricks were > his" is a direct lie which the Director should have been able to sort out. > > I am not so sure that muttering "I think I have all tricks" is necessarily a > claim? > You're barking up the wrong tree, Sven. Let's change that first sentence to: "No need to think lad, I have all tricks" Now it is definititely a claim. My point is that we come up to situations where claim statements are missing. It is both unfair and unnecessary to rule against people simply on the basis of a missing claim statement. The absence of a claim statement can be an indication of some aberration in a players' thinking, and if so, the 'at all likely' threshold is quickly reached, but it is a grave mistake to consider the absence of a claim statement on its own as a reason to rula against a claimer. One needs to look at all the eveidence, and I feel many on blml are not prepared to do so. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From svenpran at online.no Thu Feb 24 22:31:46 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu Feb 24 22:32:03 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421E33EE.3020409@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000e01c51ab8$3e2146c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > On Behalf Of Herman De Wael ............ > You're barking up the wrong tree, Sven. Let's change that first > sentence to: > "No need to think lad, I have all tricks" > > Now it is definititely a claim. That one is indeed better. And I should still allow him to make a claim statement when I arrive to establish that he has indeed made a claim even if he did not submit any statement with what eventually is established as a claim. (But I would also still be observant on possible parts of that statement being afterthoughts generated by the situation). > My point is that we come up to situations where claim statements are > missing. It is both unfair and unnecessary to rule against people > simply on the basis of a missing claim statement. The important question is then why it was missing. > > The absence of a claim statement can be an indication of some > aberration in a players' thinking, and if so, the 'at all likely' > threshold is quickly reached, but it is a grave mistake to consider > the absence of a claim statement on its own as a reason to rula > against a claimer. > > One needs to look at all the eveidence, We fully agree on this one and I feel many on blml are > not prepared to do so. And I do not intend to discuss this. Regards Sven From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 24 23:17:27 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 24 23:17:06 2005 Subject: [blml] Which is superior (was Obiter dictum) In-Reply-To: <421C3F84.6080201@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Herman De Wael: [big snip] >when partner misexplains, keep quiet about >it. That ultimately turned into L75D2. > >So in the past, twice already, have the >powers that rule bridge decided that it is >more important to avoid UI than to avoid MI. >Why then should we now decide otherwise? [big snip] Richard Hills: Herman is correct on what *used* to be the priority of the Laws forty-odd years ago. If one looks at Maurice Harrison-Gray's article "A Short History of Texas" one will note that an English pair reached a slam off two aces due to avoidance of UI, then made that slam due to failure to correct MI. (This article was reprinted in a recent blml eponymous thread.) But, in my opinion, priorities have changed in recent times, due to the further spread of wacky conventions and weird systems (such as the weird Symmetric Relay system). In my opinion, nowadays MI is a cardinal sin, with creation of UI being merely a venial sin. In my opinion, the reason that creation of UI is nowadays treated as a mere venial sin is that creation of UI does not cause damage to the opponents - only *use* of UI causes damage. In my opinion, players and TDs are nowadays much more aware (thanks to educative "Active Ethics" campaigns) that *use* of UI is another cardinal sin. Therefore, in my opinion, it would be a good idea if in the 2008 edition of the Laws the inconsistent Law 75D2 was abolished, with MI being corrected as soon as possible. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Thu Feb 24 23:40:21 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Thu Feb 24 23:39:47 2005 Subject: [blml] Which is superior (was Obiter dictum) In-Reply-To: <421C3F84.6080201@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Herman De Wael: [snip] >And please also think about this. There's this fellow called HdW who, >rightly or wrongly, has decided he is better off not correcting his >partners misexplanation by describing correctly his next bid. >Now suppose the WBF write a law which force HdW to change his ways. >Yet he does not. He explains his actions by "I'm convinced my partner >got it right and I continue to explain what I now believe the system >is". How are you going to say he's wrong? [snip] Richard Hills: In my opinion, this is a "straw man" argument. If the WBF LC decides to specifically rule that correction of MI takes priority over avoidance of creation of UI, then that HdW fellow has a specific legal obligation to correctly explain his partnership agreement, regardless of what the HdW fellow actually believes and regardless of what the HdW fellow might actually say. And any TD must use Law 85 to assess the accuracy of a doubtful explanation. Note: It might also be useful if the WBF LC clarify whether being deliberately untruthful (even if the deliberate untruth is for the highest motives) is an implicit infraction of Law 75C. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From mrqtmuwq at maximedia-technologies.com Thu Feb 24 23:47:23 2005 From: mrqtmuwq at maximedia-technologies.com (Mabel Feliciano) Date: Thu Feb 24 23:51:49 2005 Subject: [blml] don`t be an asshole Bradford Message-ID: <3DF4FB83.02004@ubp.edu.ar> Offshore pharm wish you all best in New Year! We will offer you best prices on any meds you need Viagra Cialis Valium Xanax and much more.. Please click below and check out our offer. http://beyond.onstartopper.com/?wid=100069 canis np amalgamate ph fleet fmo ticklish smv diffeomorphic al bullfrog zck worthington tkd eleazar cs synod yzv diagonal edx vaginal ocj casework ufo http://crank.onstartopper.com/nomore.html From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 25 01:14:29 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 25 01:14:50 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <3U6ippQ$fTHCFwcY@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: David Stevenson: [snip] >Sadly I will tell you that a not totally dissimilar convention was >applied for and turned down. > >Perhaps we do not agree with what should be permitted, and what not? Richard Hills: Of course each sponsoring organisation has a right to decide what bidding technology is permitted, and what is prohibited, as it deems appropriate according to its cultural norms. A problem occurs when a sponsoring organisation underestimates the desire of its members to experiment with some esoterica. For example, the ABF recently introduced a descriptive (not prohibitive) matrix classifying bidding systems into eight basic types. The ABF then left it to each local Aussie club and local sponsoring organisation to decide which of the eight system types would be permitted in a particular event. So, the organisers of the popular Surfers Paradise congress thought that they would try banning "brown sticker" systems in pairs and senior teams events. There was a huge outcry from geriatric attendees, who wanted to continue using their favourite "brown sticker" conventions, so the organisers had to hastily reverse themselves. A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive approach to esoterica in the bidding. As has been demonstrated by the ABF example above, even geriatrics can get into the swing of esoterica if they have been acclimatised to esoteric bidding over time. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From XZGKMIOKAPPD at arrowelp.com Fri Feb 25 01:22:56 2005 From: XZGKMIOKAPPD at arrowelp.com (Ahmad Camacho) Date: Fri Feb 25 01:35:53 2005 Subject: [blml] Male Multi Orgazzsm Pill Message-ID: <769CDE2B.3020064@the-moons.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050225/0776c1e0/attachment.html From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 25 02:09:44 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 25 02:11:03 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: References: <3U6ippQ$fTHCFwcY@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: rjh wrote > > > > >David Stevenson: > >[snip] > >>Sadly I will tell you that a not totally dissimilar convention was >>applied for and turned down. >> >>Perhaps we do not agree with what should be permitted, and what not? > >Richard Hills: > >Of course each sponsoring organisation has a right to decide what >bidding technology is permitted, and what is prohibited, as it deems >appropriate according to its cultural norms. > >A problem occurs when a sponsoring organisation underestimates the >desire of its members to experiment with some esoterica. > >For example, the ABF recently introduced a descriptive (not >prohibitive) matrix classifying bidding systems into eight basic >types. The ABF then left it to each local Aussie club and local >sponsoring organisation to decide which of the eight system types >would be permitted in a particular event. So, the organisers of the >popular Surfers Paradise congress thought that they would try banning >"brown sticker" systems in pairs and senior teams events. There was >a huge outcry from geriatric attendees, who wanted to continue using >their favourite "brown sticker" conventions, so the organisers had to >hastily reverse themselves. > >A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college >students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL >members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are >constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college >students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric >bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive >approach to esoterica in the bidding. As has been demonstrated by >the ABF example above, even geriatrics can get into the swing of >esoterica if they have been acclimatised to esoteric bidding over >time. If you play under EBU rules, especially Level 4 rules, you can invent some pretty strange methods - and notably more so from April 1st, when transfer openings become permitted. So it seems a rather ill-thought-out criticism that when *one* system played many thousands of miles away is not able to be played in its entirety it is suggested we have got it wrong because we do not allow esoterica. what you mean is we do not allow one specific example of esoterica, which hardly proves anything. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 25 02:27:30 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 25 02:29:04 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: References: <3U6ippQ$fTHCFwcY@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: David Stevenson wrote >rjh wrote >> >>David Stevenson: >> >>[snip] >> >>>Sadly I will tell you that a not totally dissimilar convention was >>>applied for and turned down. >>> >>>Perhaps we do not agree with what should be permitted, and what not? >> >>Richard Hills: >> >>Of course each sponsoring organisation has a right to decide what >>bidding technology is permitted, and what is prohibited, as it deems >>appropriate according to its cultural norms. >> >>A problem occurs when a sponsoring organisation underestimates the >>desire of its members to experiment with some esoterica. >> >>For example, the ABF recently introduced a descriptive (not >>prohibitive) matrix classifying bidding systems into eight basic >>types. The ABF then left it to each local Aussie club and local >>sponsoring organisation to decide which of the eight system types >>would be permitted in a particular event. So, the organisers of the >>popular Surfers Paradise congress thought that they would try banning >>"brown sticker" systems in pairs and senior teams events. There was >>a huge outcry from geriatric attendees, who wanted to continue using >>their favourite "brown sticker" conventions, so the organisers had to >>hastily reverse themselves. Another point is that the number of things that have been allowed and later not allowed can be counted on your fingers, and we have only had complaints on two occasions. We have deleted one or two items in the past, and our current ideas we shall delete one item at the next OB. The only real complaints were as follows. Many many years ago the Roman Club was a permitted system. Sometime it became somewhat unpopular in its ideas and was no longer permitted. Nowadays when we allow conventions but say nothing about systems I think it is the three card majors that make it unplayable. Somewhat more recently, ie in the last twenty years, a convention called Roche became popular in clubs. You must realise that in England players like the weak no-trump, regarding the strong no-trump as a quirk of our former colonists. However, they get upset when they pick up a balanced 12-14, and someone opens 1NT ahead of them. Note: 1 of a suit does not upset them because then they use the takeout double whatever their shape. So someone came up with the idea of playing 2C over 1NT to say "You have a weak NT? Well, so do I!" To make it playable [!!!] it shows at least three clubs. I have played it when my friend from South-West of Melbourne visited Liverpool and it worked beautifully: show me anyone else who could reach 2C on a 4-4 fit for 90! Anyway, the EBU Council said that conventions with no bridge merit should not be permitted, and Roche was deleted. This caused an outcry. This was before my time on the L&EC, and I thought they were bark^H^H^H^Hmisguided because it was played in a lot of clubs. A few years later half-way through a wet afternoon on the L&EC when I was presenting things to them for agreement they looked so somnolent that I offered Roche in my most bored voice and it went through unchallenged!!! -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From adam at irvine.com Fri Feb 25 02:35:12 2005 From: adam at irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Fri Feb 25 02:35:28 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:14:29 +1100." Message-ID: <200502250135.RAA22518@mailhub.irvine.com> Richard Hills wrote: > A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college > students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL > members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are > constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college > students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric > bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive > approach to esoterica in the bidding. For what it's worth: I learned to play bridge in college, and none of us had any interest in this sort of experimentation. The most interest I remembered was one couple who would have liked to play Precision instead of Standard---hardly esoteric. I was attracted to bridge because I like puzzles, and figuring out how to play a hand was like a puzzle. After I had been playing duplicate a few years and was out of college, my then-partner and I decided to get really wild and try a whole bunch of conventions from one of Max Hardy's 2/1 books, plus the Mexican 2D. Really esoteric, huh? Ultimately most of the conventions proved to be nothing but burdens on our memory that didn't really help our game. Me, I think the attraction of the play and defense puzzle is enough to hold my interest in the game. Maybe there are those for whom it wouldn't---i.e. if they can't muck around with the bidding, then they don't want to play bridge because the play/defense part of it is boring for them. But I remain unconvinced (in the absence of any data) that such players form a substantial fraction of college students. In any event, if it's survival of the game I'm interested in, adjusting the rules in order to attract players who find play and defense boring would probably result in the survival of a game that, even though it might be played under the same rules, would be essentially a different game than the one I'm interested in playing. I'm not saying that we should ban all conventions or anything like that. I'm just questioning the oft-assumed notion that we won't be able to attract young players unless we allow everything. I haven't seen any compelling reason to believe this is true. -- Adam From schoderb at msn.com Fri Feb 25 02:35:36 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Fri Feb 25 02:36:21 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book References: <3U6ippQ$fTHCFwcY@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Way to go baby. If you can't sell something on its merits, then sneak it by!!!! Great for the game, no? Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Stevenson" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [blml] EBU Orange book > David Stevenson wrote > >rjh wrote > >> > >>David Stevenson: > >> > >>[snip] > >> > >>>Sadly I will tell you that a not totally dissimilar convention was > >>>applied for and turned down. > >>> > >>>Perhaps we do not agree with what should be permitted, and what not? > >> > >>Richard Hills: > >> > >>Of course each sponsoring organisation has a right to decide what > >>bidding technology is permitted, and what is prohibited, as it deems > >>appropriate according to its cultural norms. > >> > >>A problem occurs when a sponsoring organisation underestimates the > >>desire of its members to experiment with some esoterica. > >> > >>For example, the ABF recently introduced a descriptive (not > >>prohibitive) matrix classifying bidding systems into eight basic > >>types. The ABF then left it to each local Aussie club and local > >>sponsoring organisation to decide which of the eight system types > >>would be permitted in a particular event. So, the organisers of the > >>popular Surfers Paradise congress thought that they would try banning > >>"brown sticker" systems in pairs and senior teams events. There was > >>a huge outcry from geriatric attendees, who wanted to continue using > >>their favourite "brown sticker" conventions, so the organisers had to > >>hastily reverse themselves. > > Another point is that the number of things that have been allowed and > later not allowed can be counted on your fingers, and we have only had > complaints on two occasions. We have deleted one or two items in the > past, and our current ideas we shall delete one item at the next OB. > > The only real complaints were as follows. Many many years ago the > Roman Club was a permitted system. Sometime it became somewhat > unpopular in its ideas and was no longer permitted. Nowadays when we > allow conventions but say nothing about systems I think it is the three > card majors that make it unplayable. > > Somewhat more recently, ie in the last twenty years, a convention > called Roche became popular in clubs. You must realise that in England > players like the weak no-trump, regarding the strong no-trump as a quirk > of our former colonists. However, they get upset when they pick up a > balanced 12-14, and someone opens 1NT ahead of them. Note: 1 of a suit > does not upset them because then they use the takeout double whatever > their shape. > > So someone came up with the idea of playing 2C over 1NT to say "You > have a weak NT? Well, so do I!" To make it playable [!!!] it shows at > least three clubs. I have played it when my friend from South-West of > Melbourne visited Liverpool and it worked beautifully: show me anyone > else who could reach 2C on a 4-4 fit for 90! > > Anyway, the EBU Council said that conventions with no bridge merit > should not be permitted, and Roche was deleted. This caused an outcry. > This was before my time on the L&EC, and I thought they were > bark^H^H^H^Hmisguided because it was played in a lot of clubs. > > A few years later half-way through a wet afternoon on the L&EC when I > was presenting things to them for agreement they looked so somnolent > that I offered Roche in my most bored voice and it went through > unchallenged!!! > > -- > David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ > Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ > ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= > Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From schoderb at msn.com Fri Feb 25 02:41:50 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Fri Feb 25 02:42:21 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book References: <200502250135.RAA22518@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: And, I'm not at all sure that Mr. Hill's contention about the number of college students attracted to bridge is even a fact. But of course, type it neatly, and it looks like a fact, doesn't it? Particularly about the number of ACBL members dropping. Must be that the ACBL CEO and others in management can't count, or could maybe Mr. Hills be wrong? perish the thought! Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Beneschan" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [blml] EBU Orange book > > Richard Hills wrote: > > > A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college > > students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL > > members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are > > constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college > > students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric > > bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive > > approach to esoterica in the bidding. > > For what it's worth: I learned to play bridge in college, and none of > us had any interest in this sort of experimentation. The most > interest I remembered was one couple who would have liked to play > Precision instead of Standard---hardly esoteric. I was attracted to > bridge because I like puzzles, and figuring out how to play a hand was > like a puzzle. After I had been playing duplicate a few years and was > out of college, my then-partner and I decided to get really wild and > try a whole bunch of conventions from one of Max Hardy's 2/1 books, > plus the Mexican 2D. Really esoteric, huh? Ultimately most of the > conventions proved to be nothing but burdens on our memory that didn't > really help our game. > > Me, I think the attraction of the play and defense puzzle is enough to > hold my interest in the game. Maybe there are those for whom it > wouldn't---i.e. if they can't muck around with the bidding, then they > don't want to play bridge because the play/defense part of it is > boring for them. But I remain unconvinced (in the absence of any > data) that such players form a substantial fraction of college > students. In any event, if it's survival of the game I'm interested > in, adjusting the rules in order to attract players who find play and > defense boring would probably result in the survival of a game that, > even though it might be played under the same rules, would be > essentially a different game than the one I'm interested in playing. > > I'm not saying that we should ban all conventions or anything like > that. I'm just questioning the oft-assumed notion that we won't be > able to attract young players unless we allow everything. I haven't > seen any compelling reason to believe this is true. > > -- Adam > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From swillner at cfa.harvard.edu Fri Feb 25 03:14:49 2005 From: swillner at cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Fri Feb 25 03:15:04 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <200502241538.j1OFchNA006480@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502241538.j1OFchNA006480@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421E8A19.90001@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: Herman De Wael > Because I could easily imagine having the same lay-out, the same > moment of claiming, and the same claim statement, and yet rule > differently. Oh dear, I'm very sorry to read that. I hope that won't be possible after the new Laws take effect. > Consider the case of the missing trump. We have often ruled valid > claims without mention to missing trumps. If I have 10 top spades and > the 3 other aces, you will allow my claim for 7S even before the dummy > is faced. You would not rule that I had forgotten the outstanding trump. In the ACBL, in the unlikely event that someone can ruff one of the aces, I'm not at all sure your claim would be accepted. Despite that, I do hope no one would rule that the trumps are played starting with a low one, but anything seems possible when it comes to claims. > So yes, the current laws require us to look into claimer's mind. I suppose that's a plausible interpretation, though I don't like it. > And > this should remain the case, or we are left with a law that basically > equals: if it claims, shoot it! Not at all. In my ideal world, we would be left with a law that is quite lenient on claims _provided_ claimer takes the trouble to make some kind of sensible claim statement. For Tim and other rubber bridge players: I can well imagine that the rubber laws for claims might be a bit more relaxed, but duplicate bridge is more formal in so many other ways, I don't see the harm in making it formal here. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 25 03:37:30 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 25 03:37:56 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kojak: >>And, I'm not at all sure that Mr. Hills' contention about the number of >>college students attracted to bridge is even a fact. But of course, type it >>neatly, and it looks like a fact, doesn't it? Particularly about the number >>of ACBL members dropping. Must be that the ACBL CEO and others in >>management can't count, or could maybe Mr. Hills be wrong? perish the >>thought! ACBL District 2 report to members, March 20th 2003 -> http://www3.sympatico.ca/jonathan.st/board031.html >The ACBL's new Chief Marketing Officer, Linda Granell, provided us with her >marketing initiatives for 2003. She will be presenting a three-year strategic >marketing plan to us this summer. Meanwhile, the bottom line for 2003 and the >foreseeable future is to increase ACBL membership. > >We were shown a statistical model to illustrate the dramatic decline of an >organizations' membership. This decline can be likened to falling off a >cliff. As the age of the average ACBL member increases - in 2003 this is >greater than 65 years of age - we get ever closer to that cliff. Currently, >the ACBL loses about one thousand members per month, of which seven to eight >hundred are due to death. In February, the ACBL signed up more than eleven >hundred new members, which was a record. But in order to achieve a significant >increase in membership, we need to recruit closer to fifteen hundred new >members per month. > >The Unit Membership Incentive Program has been dramatically redesigned to be >user-friendly. The onerous amount of paperwork previously required to receive >extra rebate money has been eliminated. Even a small increase in unit >membership will be rewarded. Unit Presidents and Secretaries should have >received a letter providing full details of the program. Richard Hills: Perish the thought that I should make an unsubstantiated nigellic sweeping statement on blml. However, in the past I have provided immediate retractions to blml on the odd occasions that my fact-checking has been insufficient. Does "dramatic decline" and "falling off a cliff" and "age of the average ACBL member increases ..... greater than 65 years of age" satisfy Kojak's qualms about my accuracy? Especially when these words appear in an official ACBL document of recent provenance? :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 25 04:09:56 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 25 04:10:21 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <200502250135.RAA22518@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Adam Beneschan: [snip] >I was attracted to bridge because I like puzzles, and >figuring out how to play a hand was like a puzzle. [snip] Richard Hills: Different strokes for different folks. In my salad days, I enjoyed squeeze play, but I also enjoyed the puzzle of designing and updating my own bidding system. Many players, not necessarily young ones, suffer from the disease of conventionitis - their results would be better with fewer conventions. See the amusing book by an ACBL player, Roselyn Teukolsky, "How to Play Bridge with Your Spouse ... and Survive!". Or reread Maurice Harrison-Gray's initial (posthumous) posting on the recent blml thread "A Short History of Texas". The blml archive is located at: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/ In one of his Bridge World match reports, Edgar Kaplan argued that the then "Marty Bergen" rule of the ACBL gave the then Bergen-Cohen partnership an unfair advantage, since they were now prohibited by ACBL regulation from losing imps by bidding their home-grown ultra-weak two-bids convention. :-) Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From dpb3 at fastmail.fm Fri Feb 25 04:26:30 2005 From: dpb3 at fastmail.fm (David Babcock) Date: Fri Feb 25 04:26:50 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <20050225023749.D7BB24DEE0F@mx4.messagingengine.com> References: <20050225023749.D7BB24DEE0F@mx4.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1109301990.25037.215986644@webmail.messagingengine.com> > A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college > students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL > members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are > constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college > students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric > bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive > approach to esoterica in the bidding. To make the case that ABCL's restrictiveness is at fault (the problem is very real), one would have to show that ACBL is more restrictive of bidding methods now than it was when college kids frequented the duplicate clubs, which we certainly did when I was in school (late 60s - early 70s). Can that showing be made? David Babcock Florida USA From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Fri Feb 25 05:23:39 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri Feb 25 05:24:28 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <1109301990.25037.215986644@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: David Babcock: >To make the case that ABCL's restrictiveness is at fault >(the problem is very real), one would have to show that >ACBL is more restrictive of bidding methods now than >it was when college kids frequented the duplicate clubs, >which we certainly did when I was in school >(late 60s - early 70s). Can that showing be made? Richard Hills: The notorious personality Lew Mathe had strong views on many subjects, and was not too timorous to suggest that others adopt those views. When Lew Mathe became ACBL President in the early 1970s, he arranged for the ACBL to impose a lengthy five year moratorium on the legalisation of new conventions. In my opinion, that moratorium was the tipping point for the current ACBL culture, in which even an expert such as Larry Cohen is reflexively critical of the (only slightly esoteric) Polish Club system. Off-topic note: A highly readable and thought-provoking popular science book is "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From mustikka at charter.net Fri Feb 25 05:26:22 2005 From: mustikka at charter.net (raija d) Date: Fri Feb 25 05:26:42 2005 Subject: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes Message-ID: <001d01c51af2$298a1450$7a30b618@DFYXB361> Oops, sent to Tim only. Meant for blml. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim West-Meads" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:14 AM > Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes > > >> Sven wrote: >> >>> If he demonstrated with his statement (or his play) that he was indeed >>> aware of the outstanding trump then we accept it. >> >> This is not the threshhold set by law. We are required to judge whether >> "it is at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was unaware >> that a trump remained in an opponent's hand". IE he need not "prove" his >> awareness, it is enough that such awareness be deemed overwhelmingly >> likely. >> >> Tim > > Assuming that is not the same as "it is at all possible/probable...etc* . > This invites subjective ruling and weighing of whatever evidence may be > present, when a simple STATED claim statement would have killed all doubts > about how *at all likely" it is for declarer to know or not know that a > trump is still out. I am following this thread, as always, as an > interested reader, not a TD. Wishing a claim statement would be required > for a claim to be accepted. > From hermandw at hdw.be Fri Feb 25 09:14:19 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Fri Feb 25 09:13:28 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421E8A19.90001@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502241538.j1OFchNA006480@cfa.harvard.edu> <421E8A19.90001@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <421EDE5B.4070800@hdw.be> Steve Willner wrote: > > Not at all. In my ideal world, we would be left with a law that is > quite lenient on claims _provided_ claimer takes the trouble to make > some kind of sensible claim statement. For Tim and other rubber bridge "some kind of sensible claim statement" And how are you going to rule on that? Face it, guys, however you shall be formulating the new claims laws, you will always be faced with some borderline discussions (with the possible exception of Burnesque laws that would kill off claiming in two weeks). Maybe you don't like the borderline discussions we are having at the moment, but this will be nothing compared to the discussion you will be having with the players when you change the border from something they were used to. > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From hermandw at hdw.be Fri Feb 25 09:19:09 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Fri Feb 25 09:18:21 2005 Subject: [blml] Which is superior (was Obiter dictum) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421EDF7D.8020902@hdw.be> Aha! richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > > But, in my opinion, priorities have changed > in recent times, due to the further spread > of wacky conventions and weird systems (such > as the weird Symmetric Relay system). In my > opinion, nowadays MI is a cardinal sin, with > creation of UI being merely a venial sin. > > In my opinion, the reason that creation of UI > is nowadays treated as a mere venial sin is > that creation of UI does not cause damage to > the opponents - only *use* of UI causes damage. > I don't particularly agree with that sentence but I'll let it pass. > In my opinion, players and TDs are nowadays > much more aware (thanks to educative "Active > Ethics" campaigns) that *use* of UI is another > cardinal sin. > > Therefore, in my opinion, it would be a good > idea if in the 2008 edition of the Laws the > inconsistent Law 75D2 was abolished, with > MI being corrected as soon as possible. > Aha! This at least acknowledges that there would be an inconsistency if the new proposed law be included next to an unchanged L75D2. Maybe this could lead to a consistent set of laws, but I don't know if it won't change the face of bridge a lot. And it does not solve the problem of the player HdW who will simply refuse to correct partner's explanations as well, saying to the TD: I thought he was right. When asking a player to correct partner's explanation you are asking that player to be certain of what their system really says. No player can be certain of such a thing. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From hermandw at hdw.be Fri Feb 25 09:25:44 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Fri Feb 25 09:24:55 2005 Subject: [blml] Which is superior (was Obiter dictum) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421EE108.4070508@hdw.be> richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > > > > Herman De Wael: > > [snip] > > >>And please also think about this. There's this fellow called HdW who, >>rightly or wrongly, has decided he is better off not correcting his >>partners misexplanation by describing correctly his next bid. >>Now suppose the WBF write a law which force HdW to change his ways. >>Yet he does not. He explains his actions by "I'm convinced my partner >>got it right and I continue to explain what I now believe the system >>is". How are you going to say he's wrong? > > > [snip] > > Richard Hills: > > In my opinion, this is a "straw man" argument. I don't really know what that means. > If the WBF LC decides > to specifically rule that correction of MI takes priority over > avoidance of creation of UI, then that HdW fellow has a specific legal > obligation to correctly explain his partnership agreement, regardless > of what the HdW fellow actually believes and regardless of what the HdW > fellow might actually say. And any TD must use Law 85 to assess the > accuracy of a doubtful explanation. > But the problem is that HdW might be genuinely uncertain about what the system really is. Under the current laws, for a number of things it does not matter what the real system is to determine what the actions of the players ought to be: - HdW must continue bidding in what he thought his system originally was, his partner's explanation being UI to him; - HdW must refrain from correcting his partner's explanation; and, under the HdW school: - HdW must explain partner's next bidding under the supposed system of partner's. None of these require knowledge of what is written on the CC or in the system notes. In the proposed new system, actions 3 (or 2 and 3) would require HdW to know what the system actually says. > Note: It might also be useful if the WBF LC clarify whether being > deliberately untruthful (even if the deliberate untruth is for the > highest motives) is an implicit infraction of Law 75C. > > > Best wishes > > Richard Hills > Movie grognard and general guru > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From rhason at mailAccount.com Mon Feb 14 14:36:10 2005 From: rhason at mailAccount.com (Gene Denton) Date: Fri Feb 25 09:59:50 2005 Subject: [blml] Notification: We offer 3.25% rates Message-ID: bqeyhc33juy5vubacxr8sdz18joj42.i93OykTw006398@vais.net> Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. You have qualified for the lowest rate in years... You could get over $380,000 for as little as $500 a month! Ba(d credit? Doesn't matter, low rates are fixed no matter what! To get a free, no obli,gation consultation click below: http://www.lenderz4you.com/x/loan.php?id=nu Best Regards, Giovanni Betts to be remov(ed: http://www.lenderz4you.com/x/st.html this process takes one week, so please be patient. we do our best to take your email/s off but you have to fill out a rem/ove or else you will continue to recieve email/s. From Frances.Hinden at Shell.com Fri Feb 25 10:59:23 2005 From: Frances.Hinden at Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Fri Feb 25 10:59:43 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E10181759C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> >Richard Hills: > >In my opinion, a primary reason that college >students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric >bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive >approach to esoterica in the bidding. As has been demonstrated by >the ABF example above, even geriatrics can get into the swing of >esoterica if they have been acclimatised to esoteric bidding over >time. --------------------- In my opinion, I don't think that is true. My University club used to allow people to play pretty much whatever they wanted (for all I know, it still does). But nobody really played anything outside what was then called "restricted licence" (about the current EBU Level 4). Lots of psyches, lots of wild pre-empting, the time Tom Townsend passed on his 10-card spade suit... A lot of systemic experimentation, but not really esoterica. From qiyvhjzt at leoneandassociates.com Fri Feb 25 11:19:31 2005 From: qiyvhjzt at leoneandassociates.com (Monty Mccarty) Date: Fri Feb 25 11:27:27 2005 Subject: [blml] New Year with Vicodin Ricky Message-ID: <1.8.66.2081924.0083fc70@ies.edu> Big sale on Vicodin and other drugs. You wont find better prices anywhere! Vicodin - 90 PiIls - 178$ Viagra - 100 PilIs - 209.99$ Cialis - 90 PiIls - 324$ Ambien - 120 PilIs - 249$ Xanax - 90 PiIls - 299$ and many more... Please click below and check out our offer. http://aeolian.vigra4.info/in.php?aid=44 %TEXT[2-5] %TEXT[2-5] From Frances.Hinden at Shell.com Fri Feb 25 11:35:06 2005 From: Frances.Hinden at Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Fri Feb 25 11:36:15 2005 Subject: [blml] Why the drop in numbers? (was EBU Orange book) Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E1018175A0@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> > A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college > students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL > members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are > constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college > students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric > bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive > approach to esoterica in the bidding. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Many current bridge players have opinions about why numbers are dropping off. These tend to reflect their interests. So some say it is because of over-restrictive regulation, some because of over-permissive regulation, some because the Laws are too draconion or not consistently applied..... IMO, asking people who play why other people have given up is not helpful. Ask people who don't play why they don't play, or ask those who give up why they have given up, and what do they say? I don't have a fully representative sample, but of the people I know who used to play bridge and now play less the reasons are: - prefer to play poker as I make money that way - got fed up with all the travelling to play matches - acquired children, ran out of time - wasn't winning things, prefer to play games I win - got bored with it - couldn't find a good partner, went back to playing chess ...but none of these are really about the way the game is actually run! I know people who don't play in the trials, or who don't play national congresses for more relevant reasons about atmosphere etc, but they are still playing lots of bridge. From john at asimere.com Fri Feb 25 12:39:41 2005 From: john at asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Fri Feb 25 12:41:40 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <000b01c51a97$4642bd50$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050224114250.02aec7b0@pop.starpower.net> <000b01c51a97$4642bd50$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: In article <000b01c51a97$4642bd50$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >> On Behalf Of Eric Landau >................. >> "A claim should be accompanied at once by a clarification..." I hardly >> think we're stretching the law here if we read "at once" to mean >> immediately upon discovering that one has unknowingly claimed. If the >> player "is now forced to do so", as Herman correctly puts it, that >> means he must do so now, not invent time travel in order to have done >> so earlier. At my club the conversation goes: >> >> >"Doesn't matter what you play, [] I have all tricks". [I have elided >> >"I think" because at my club that might be considered sufficient to snip typical Yes you did, No I didn't conversation >> Isn't that widely accepted as not just legal, but routine? > >Just to cast my vote: If I rule that the player has actually made a claim I >would probably allow him to make his statement at this time but I would >consider possible parts of this statement that looked like afterthought >caused by the claim being contested to be unacceptable. I had a recent ruling that was interesting. Declarer started to face his cards and said "I think they're mine", and then said "Oops, they're not". I ruled he had *not* claimed. > >Sven > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@amsterdamned.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From ehaa at starpower.net Fri Feb 25 13:50:51 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Fri Feb 25 13:47:25 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <1109301990.25037.215986644@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20050225023749.D7BB24DEE0F@mx4.messagingengine.com> <1109301990.25037.215986644@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050225074018.02bb30f0@pop.starpower.net> At 10:26 PM 2/24/05, David wrote: > > A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college > > students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL > > members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are > > constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college > > students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric > > bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive > > approach to esoterica in the bidding. > >To make the case that ABCL's restrictiveness is at fault >(the problem is very real), one would have to show that >ACBL is more restrictive of bidding methods now than >it was when college kids frequented the duplicate clubs, >which we certainly did when I was in school >(late 60s - early 70s). Can that showing be made? If anecdotal evidence helps... I was in college in the early and mid 60s at a campus (University of Rochester) with an active bridge club and a fair number of players who regularly attended area clubs and tournaments. Inventing conventions, even whole systems, was a favorite passtime. One of my partners and I built a homebrew system in 1963 that we were to discover, in 1969, was not at all dissimilar to the then-unknown Chinese Precision system. Shortly after Precision came out the ACBL started regulating methods far more heavily than they had previously (perhaps because Precision was the impetus for so many players starting to play something other than then-Standard American). Those regs were carefully drawn to permit the simplest form of Precision, but prohibited our system, which was built on a now-barred 1D opening bid promising a long suit in either minor. I haven't had the opportunity to play it since. My experience was not atypical of the times. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From dpb3 at fastmail.fm Fri Feb 25 13:53:52 2005 From: dpb3 at fastmail.fm (David Babcock) Date: Fri Feb 25 13:54:12 2005 Subject: [blml] Re: Why the drop in numbers? In-Reply-To: <20050225105953.5F21C4F7E77@mx2.messagingengine.com> References: <20050225105953.5F21C4F7E77@mx2.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1109336032.25327.216012347@webmail.messagingengine.com> > > A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college > > students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL > > members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are > > constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college > > students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric > > bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive > > approach to esoterica in the bidding. To make the case that ABCL's restrictiveness is at fault (the problem is very real), one would have to show that ACBL is more restrictive of bidding methods now than it was when college kids frequented the duplicate clubs, which we certainly did when I was in school (late 60s - early 70s). Can that showing be made? David Babcock Florida USA From richard.willey at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 14:00:05 2005 From: richard.willey at gmail.com (richard willey) Date: Fri Feb 25 14:00:24 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <1109301990.25037.215986644@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20050225023749.D7BB24DEE0F@mx4.messagingengine.com> <1109301990.25037.215986644@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <2da24b8e050225050011792aa8@mail.gmail.com> > To make the case that ABCL's restrictiveness is at fault > (the problem is very real), one would have to show that > ACBL is more restrictive of bidding methods now than > it was when college kids frequented the duplicate clubs, > which we certainly did when I was in school > (late 60s - early 70s). Not necessarily true: I would argue that the most significant issue facing bridge is its transition from a mass market form of entertainment to a niche. This transition was driven by a combination of factors. The most significant is doubtlessly the proliferation of a wide variety of substitute entertainment options over the past 40 years. Furthermore, I make the following claim: Players who are looking for a "simple" form of recreation are highly unlikely to learn bridge. The regulatory authorities are going out of their way to "dumb down" the game, chasing a dying demographic. Sadly, I don't think it will work... Bridge does attract some new players, however, these players seem to be individuals who are drawn to the games complexity. Look at the "young" bridge players: From my perspective, they are overwhelmingly drawn from technical professions (math, computing, finance) etc. "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken From ehaa at starpower.net Fri Feb 25 14:08:20 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Fri Feb 25 14:04:09 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: References: <200502250135.RAA22518@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050225075935.02bb2680@pop.starpower.net> At 08:41 PM 2/24/05, WILLIAM wrote: >And, I'm not at all sure that Mr. Hill's contention about the number of >college students attracted to bridge is even a fact. But of course, >type it >neatly, and it looks like a fact, doesn't it? Particularly about the >number >of ACBL members dropping. Must be that the ACBL CEO and others in >management can't count, or could maybe Mr. Hills be wrong? perish the >thought! My understanding is that Richard may be wrong about the current membership trend, but that the numbers support his underlying point. Until a couple of years ago, for perhaps a decade, the ACBL's recruitment efforts were aimed primarily at bringing more young people into the game. Those efforts failed dismally, and membership continued to decline despite them, with much accompanying hand-wringing. Recently, the ACBL gave up, and began refocusing its recruitment efforts towards the elderly, reporting in the Bulletin, for example, the success they have been having marketing bridge through the AARP (the US's dominant membership/lobbying organization for seniors). This has had some success, and membership is now growing somewhat, although the average age of the membership continues to trend sharply upwards. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From ehaa at starpower.net Fri Feb 25 14:17:32 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Fri Feb 25 14:13:19 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <421E8A19.90001@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200502241538.j1OFchNA006480@cfa.harvard.edu> <421E8A19.90001@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050225081231.02bb6010@pop.starpower.net> At 09:14 PM 2/24/05, Steve wrote: >>From: Herman De Wael >>Because I could easily imagine having the same lay-out, the same >>moment of claiming, and the same claim statement, and yet rule differently. > >Oh dear, I'm very sorry to read that. I hope that won't be possible >after the new Laws take effect. I am sorry too, for Herman's sake. If he continues to so imagine, for the best of motives, that he should do this, and does, sooner or later someone is going to find two very similar positions in which someone Herman is known to like will have received a more favorable ruling from him than someone he is known not to. The word will get out, and Herman's credibility and reputation will go down the toilet, albeit entirely undeservedly. I've seen it happen. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From blml at blakjak.com Fri Feb 25 14:36:19 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri Feb 25 14:37:53 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050225074018.02bb30f0@pop.starpower.net> References: <20050225023749.D7BB24DEE0F@mx4.messagingengine.com> <1109301990.25037.215986644@webmail.messagingengine.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050225074018.02bb30f0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: Eric Landau wrote >At 10:26 PM 2/24/05, David wrote: > >> > A demonstrable problem in the ACBL is the minimal number of college >> > students who now play bridge in ACBL events. The average age of ACBL >> > members is constantly increasing, and the numbers of ACBL members are >> > constantly dropping. In my opinion, a primary reason that college >> > students play bridge is that they like experimenting with esoteric >> > bidding methods, and the ACBL is notorious for its restrictive >> > approach to esoterica in the bidding. >> >>To make the case that ABCL's restrictiveness is at fault >>(the problem is very real), one would have to show that >>ACBL is more restrictive of bidding methods now than >>it was when college kids frequented the duplicate clubs, >>which we certainly did when I was in school >>(late 60s - early 70s). Can that showing be made? > >If anecdotal evidence helps... I was in college in the early and mid >60s at a campus (University of Rochester) with an active bridge club >and a fair number of players who regularly attended area clubs and >tournaments. Inventing conventions, even whole systems, was a favorite >passtime. > >One of my partners and I built a homebrew system in 1963 that we were >to discover, in 1969, was not at all dissimilar to the then-unknown >Chinese Precision system. Shortly after Precision came out the ACBL >started regulating methods far more heavily than they had previously >(perhaps because Precision was the impetus for so many players starting >to play something other than then-Standard American). Those regs were >carefully drawn to permit the simplest form of Precision, but >prohibited our system, which was built on a now-barred 1D opening bid >promising a long suit in either minor. I haven't had the opportunity >to play it since. My experience was not atypical of the times. I do not get the impression in England that people invent home-grown systems any more very much, but under our current rules they could. Sure, there are one or two limits, and naturally people think those limits are wrong and all our other freedoms are irrelevant, but in fact you can play something very interesting. Such limits as we have will be notably weakened at Level 4 from 1st April when transfer openings become legal. However, there are no plans to allow a 1D to include a long major [unless it guarantees that major] nor for a strong club to be allowed on medium hands. Unlucky. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From hermandw at hdw.be Fri Feb 25 16:36:28 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Fri Feb 25 16:35:42 2005 Subject: Subject: RE: [blml] Claim -1, but easaly makes In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050225081231.02bb6010@pop.starpower.net> References: <200502241538.j1OFchNA006480@cfa.harvard.edu> <421E8A19.90001@cfa.harvard.edu> <6.1.1.1.0.20050225081231.02bb6010@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <421F45FC.3050805@hdw.be> Eric Landau wrote: > At 09:14 PM 2/24/05, Steve wrote: > >>> From: Herman De Wael >>> Because I could easily imagine having the same lay-out, the same >>> moment of claiming, and the same claim statement, and yet rule >>> differently. >> >> >> Oh dear, I'm very sorry to read that. I hope that won't be possible >> after the new Laws take effect. > > > I am sorry too, for Herman's sake. If he continues to so imagine, for > the best of motives, that he should do this, and does, sooner or later > someone is going to find two very similar positions in which someone > Herman is known to like will have received a more favorable ruling from > him than someone he is known not to. The word will get out, and > Herman's credibility and reputation will go down the toilet, albeit > entirely undeservedly. I've seen it happen. > Look fellows, I did say, same lay-out and same statement, not same previous tricks! There is IMO a huge difference between someone who has drawn trumps and stopped, and someone who hasn't drawn trumps at all. For the first one, it is 'at all likely' that he miscounted, for the second one, ... this is a typical case where we accept that he knows. What I said above was to make clear that you seem to believe there is a one-to-one correspondence between the remaining cards, the statement, and the ruling. There is not. Karel's case was lacking in this aspect. Mike summed it up very well when he presented us with a hypothetical statement from claimer, which would lead us to accept that he had not forgotten about the outstanding trump. You cannot rule on claims without some intimate 'table feel'. If you believe this is bad, then go and find yourself some better directors, who have better table feel. I believe most directors are up to the simple task of determining whether or not a particular claimer knew about the outstanding trump. So it is ridiculous of us to start criticising an AC, when these have heard from a TD, and from the players. And it does mean that the same lay-out can have different rulings depending on the story. And if you don't think that should be the case, then by all means start playing some more simple game in which a computer can do the ruling. And get off blml, where real directors talk about their craft. > > Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net > 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 > Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From ismail_abd003 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 21:46:47 2005 From: ismail_abd003 at yahoo.com (Ismail. A. Abdullah) Date: Fri Feb 25 21:47:11 2005 Subject: [blml] FROM ISMAIL Message-ID: <20050225204647.22596.qmail@web51308.mail.yahoo.com> Al Salamu Alaikum, I write to intimate you of a matter that requires an urgent attention. But briefly, I am Mr Ismail A. Abdullah, the first son of late Dr Ahmed Abdullah he was the chairman/CEO of the Sierra-Leone national Gold & Diamond Mining Corporation. It is my pleasure communicating with you for the first time and believing that it will lead to a better relationship between us. I also hope you will not impede this trust and confidence I repose in you. I send this letter from Abidjan in Cote d'Ivoire where I have an official refugee status with my mother after leaving our country due to an event that took place on Febuary 2001 which led to the arrest and detention of my father and six other men after a face off with the Sierra-Leone government on allegation of subversive activities and treasonable offences which was nothing but a mere political persecution. After five months in the military detention camp my father was announced dead by the government special press release. Though I do not know to what extent you are familiar with the event and crisis in Sierra-Leone, however during the disturbance and prior to my father's death he gave me all the documents for the secret deposit he made in a security company in Abidjan. The deposit is US$ 18 Million US Dollars, he made the deposit in one trunk box(cash), but the real content of the box was not disclosed to the security company officials as this was deposited as personal effect.(for security reasons) However I have gone to the security company to confirm the deposit and establish ownership, please I need your assistance urgently in moving this fund abroad for investment, when the fund is properly secured we will jointly invest in any business you consider profitable. I will be glad for your resolved assistance, I will kindly appreciate if we can talk and emerge words with action. With all honesty to the stated data in my message,i assure you of the genuity of this proposal. I will particularly be happy if you can handle this transaction in the most confidential manner since the rest of my life solely depends on this fund. It is the fear of betrayal from anyone around us here that confirms my decision to contact a neutral individual like you, and I want you to educate me on investment potential in your country since I would not like to invest or stay in any of the African country,except otherwise. I will not hesitate to give you 20% or negotiable of the total sum for your assistance. So if you will be able to assist me, please do urgently reply me for further clarification and confirmation and in order to stop further contacts. Thank for your anticipated co-operation, May Allah bless you. Your Sincerely, Ismail A. Abdullah 0022507 291274 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From ardelm at bigpond.net.au Sat Feb 26 07:44:15 2005 From: ardelm at bigpond.net.au (Tony Musgrove) Date: Sat Feb 26 07:44:45 2005 Subject: [blml] Her first psyche Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050226173021.03f0e2c0@pop-server.bigpond.net.au> With East dealer and nil vulnerable, the hands were Q 9 10 9 7 3 A K 10 2 Q 9 3 K 10 7 6 5 8 4 3 A Q 6 5 8 4 2 Q 7 8 5 3 7 2 J 10 6 5 A J 2 K J J 9 6 4 A K 8 4 and the bidding West North East South 1C 1NT 2S X pass 2NT all pass East's 1C was psychic, her first so with heart pounding she alerted her partner's 2S bid as "opening values showing two non touching suits". (They are not too experienced but are taking lessons from some bid master or other). At the end of the auction, West remonstrated with East about her explanation, and it became clear the West's bid was natural. I was called by North, who claimed to be damaged. I allowed him to take back his last pass, and reopen the bidding from that point, but he elected not to change his bid. Upon making 10 tricks, I was again summoned and damages were claimed, misinformation etc. I have some sympathy for East, whose bid may well have deflected the opposition from their game, which of course was routinely bid and made around the room. So, how much weight should I give for the misexplanation, the UI between the offenders before the end of the hand, the offering of a change of bid to North, and his refusal? Cheers, Tony (Sydney) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.0 - Release Date: 25/02/2005 From cibor at poczta.fm Sat Feb 26 10:52:02 2005 From: cibor at poczta.fm (Konrad Ciborowski) Date: Sat Feb 26 10:52:32 2005 Subject: [blml] Her first psyche References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050226173021.03f0e2c0@pop-server.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <001401c51be8$d605e3c0$b11d1d53@kocurzak> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Musgrove" To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 7:44 AM Subject: [blml] Her first psyche > With East dealer and nil vulnerable, the hands were > > Q 9 > 10 9 7 3 > A K 10 2 > Q 9 3 > > K 10 7 6 5 8 4 3 > A Q 6 5 8 4 2 > Q 7 8 5 3 > 7 2 J 10 6 5 > A J 2 > K J > J 9 6 4 > A K 8 4 > > and the bidding > > West North East South > 1C 1NT > 2S X pass 2NT > all pass > > East's 1C was psychic, her first so with heart pounding she > alerted her partner's 2S bid as "opening values showing two > non touching suits". (They are not too experienced but are > taking lessons from some bid master or other). > > At the end of the auction, West remonstrated with East about > her explanation, and it became clear the West's bid was natural. > > I was called by North, who claimed to be damaged. I allowed him > to take back his last pass, and reopen the bidding from that point, > but he elected not to change his bid. > > Upon making 10 tricks, I was again summoned and damages were > claimed, misinformation etc. I have some sympathy for East, whose > bid may well have deflected the opposition from their game, which > of course was routinely bid and made around the room. So, how > much weight should I give for the misexplanation, the UI between > the offenders before the end of the hand, the offering of a change of > bid to North, and his refusal? > > > Cheers, I let the result stand. Failing to bid game after a natural 1NT overcall is insane, idiotic, irrational, wild, gambling. North went nuts. Konrad Ciborowski Krak?w, Poland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Smiechu warte... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f185a From svenpran at online.no Sat Feb 26 11:18:03 2005 From: svenpran at online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Sat Feb 26 11:18:23 2005 Subject: [blml] Her first psyche In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050226173021.03f0e2c0@pop-server.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <000201c51bec$7529c270$6900a8c0@WINXP> > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org [mailto:blml-bounces@amsterdamned.org] > On Behalf Of Tony Musgrove > Sent: 26. februar 2005 07:44 > To: blml@rtflb.org > Subject: [blml] Her first psyche > > With East dealer and nil vulnerable, the hands were > > Q 9 > 10 9 7 3 > A K 10 2 > Q 9 3 > > K 10 7 6 5 8 4 3 > A Q 6 5 8 4 2 > Q 7 8 5 3 > 7 2 J 10 6 5 > A J 2 > K J > J 9 6 4 > A K 8 4 > > and the bidding > > West North East South > 1C 1NT > 2S X pass 2NT > all pass > > East's 1C was psychic, her first so with heart pounding she > alerted her partner's 2S bid as "opening values showing two > non touching suits". (They are not too experienced but are > taking lessons from some bid master or other). > > At the end of the auction, West remonstrated with East about > her explanation, and it became clear the West's bid was natural. > > I was called by North, who claimed to be damaged. I allowed him > to take back his last pass, and reopen the bidding from that point, > but he elected not to change his bid. > > Upon making 10 tricks, I was again summoned and damages were > claimed, misinformation etc. I have some sympathy for East, whose > bid may well have deflected the opposition from their game, which > of course was routinely bid and made around the room. So, how > much weight should I give for the misexplanation, the UI between > the offenders before the end of the hand, the offering of a change of > bid to North, and his refusal? The misexplanation was cleared up and North was correctly offered to change his last pass (which he refused) so the only argument remaining for North/South to justify an adjustment is if this was too late for them in the auction to recover from the misexplanation. I cannot see how UI mattered here: Is there any reason to believe that West would have made any other calls (after his 2S bid) had he heard East give a correct explanation? I doubt it. What really got North/South away from their game was the psyche by East, a completely legal call (fooling West as much as it fooled North and South). No reason to adjust anything here. 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Name: atreus.GIF Type: image/gif Size: 11440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050226/661464a3/atreus.gif From SEYTRAMYM at comau.de Sat Feb 26 17:05:22 2005 From: SEYTRAMYM at comau.de (Seymour Jarrett) Date: Sat Feb 26 17:16:17 2005 Subject: [blml] Rock Her all Night with 100% Natural Viagra! Message-ID: <1026622284.450.1.camel@azrael> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050226/47c47042/attachment.html From aprill at doneasy.com Mon Feb 14 22:04:18 2005 From: aprill at doneasy.com (Stacie Mcallister) Date: Sat Feb 26 17:28:33 2005 Subject: [blml] Need a 3.25% mortage rate? Message-ID: 200410150705.i9F750Kk01345790.i93EiiTw007367@emmmarketing.com> Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. You have qualified for the lowest rate in years... You could get over $380,000 for as little as $500 a month! Ba(d credit? 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From ehaa at starpower.net Sat Feb 26 22:53:25 2005 From: ehaa at starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Sat Feb 26 22:49:18 2005 Subject: [blml] Her first psyche In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050226173021.03f0e2c0@pop-server.bigpond.net. au> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050226173021.03f0e2c0@pop-server.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050226163401.02ba8100@pop.starpower.net> At 01:44 AM 2/26/05, Tony wrote: >With East dealer and nil vulnerable, the hands were > > Q 9 > 10 9 7 3 > A K 10 2 > Q 9 3 > > K 10 7 6 5 8 4 3 > A Q 6 5 8 4 2 > Q 7 8 5 3 > 7 2 J 10 6 5 > A J 2 > K J > J 9 6 4 > A K 8 4 > >and the bidding > > West North East South > 1C 1NT > 2S X pass 2NT > all pass > >East's 1C was psychic, her first so with heart pounding she >alerted her partner's 2S bid as "opening values showing two >non touching suits". (They are not too experienced but are >taking lessons from some bid master or other). > >At the end of the auction, West remonstrated with East about >her explanation, and it became clear the West's bid was natural. > >I was called by North, who claimed to be damaged. I allowed him >to take back his last pass, and reopen the bidding from that point, >but he elected not to change his bid. > >Upon making 10 tricks, I was again summoned and damages were >claimed, misinformation etc. I have some sympathy for East, whose >bid may well have deflected the opposition from their game, which >of course was routinely bid and made around the room. So, how >much weight should I give for the misexplanation, the UI between >the offenders before the end of the hand, the offering of a change of >bid to North, and his refusal? North passed 2NT after being allowed to change his call, and South wasn't getting another chance, so the MI didn't affect the auction. West had UI from the mis-alert, but it's too far a stretch to call it at all likely that she wouldn't have passed 2NT without it. There doesn't seem to be any claim that any UI affected the play, and the MI certainly didn't, as it had been cleared up, even if improperly so -- the confusion and subsequent clarification looks like it should, if it had any effect at all, be to help declarer place the defender's cards. I would rule no damage, score stands. At some later time, I'd congratulate East for getting the brass ring on the first try with a cold top for her very first psyche. Well done. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 26 23:29:38 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Sat Feb 26 23:29:50 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book References: Message-ID: <003801c51c52$a8abbb10$609468d5@James> [Richard James Hills] > The notorious personality Lew Mathe had strong views on > many subjects, and was not too timorous to suggest that > others adopt those views. When Lew Mathe became ACBL > President in the early 1970s, he arranged for the ACBL > to impose a lengthy five year moratorium on the > legalisation of new conventions. In my opinion, that > moratorium was the tipping point for the current ACBL > culture, in which even an expert such as Larry Cohen > is reflexively critical of the (only slightly esoteric) > Polish Club system. [Nigel] It is not just college students who like learning and developing new conventions. Any Bridge teacher will confirm that would-be bridge-players are more interested in bizarre conventions than in bread and butter bidding. In their youth, most "experts" were no differenct. They spent scores of years fighting the Bridge establishment for licenses for radical methods, most of which we now take for granted (FOr example the EBU used to ban "weak twos"). Now that these "experts" are part of the establishment and many of their methods are standard -- it is only human nature that they want to pull up the drawbridge and prevent others introducing new-fangled conventions that may be better than theirs. A worrying trend among directors, especially in the EBU, is to allow themselves "judgement" relaxations of the dafter and more contentious license rules. These dispensations are not publicised to hoi polloi who are thus handicapped. I would prefer only two licensing levels ... A. Standard system (you can cross out conventions but not add any new ones) -- for beginners, social players and "the old guard". B. Anything goes - for the rest of us. (: But I'm not holding my breath :) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From Guthrie at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 27 01:29:37 2005 From: Guthrie at ntlworld.com (GUTHRIE) Date: Sun Feb 27 01:29:48 2005 Subject: [blml] New York City cases posted, R-06 References: Message-ID: <014801c51c63$6b7cfae0$2b9468d5@James> [Richad James hills] > Event: 0-5000 LM Pairs 1st Final > East: T2 62 KQJT532 Q4 > West North East South > 1C (P) 2D* (2S) > X (P) ? > 2D misexplained as strong > A. North said: she would have bid 3S with correct > information ... > B. Director's Ruling: ... pass was not a logical > alternative to [East's] 3D bid ... > C. East said: West couldn't have 5 spades ... > D. Six [of East's peers] promptly bid 3D. > The seventh passed, but thought it close. > EC ruled no damage result stands [Nigel] Thank you Richard! Hilarious! Especially North's claim that, with correct information, she would would remove to 3S, when her partner was doubled for penalties in 2S. Had Richard asked "What you would bid as East, without UI?" I would mark P=10 3D=5. IMO, however, the AC had no choice but to rule the way they did if the players polled by the panel are really typical of local life-masters. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From adam at tameware.com Sun Feb 27 01:55:42 2005 From: adam at tameware.com (Adam Wildavsky) Date: Sun Feb 27 02:34:47 2005 Subject: [blml] Orlando cases posted Message-ID: I've posted the case write-ups from the Fall NABC under my bridge laws page at http://www.tameware.com/adam/bridge/laws/ If you spot any typos please drop me a line and I'll pass the info on. I'll post my comments once I've written some. -- Adam Wildavsky http://www.tameware.com From NYNIT at nbank.com Sun Feb 27 13:56:26 2005 From: NYNIT at nbank.com (Duane Calhoun) Date: Sun Feb 27 14:00:21 2005 Subject: [blml] don`t be an asshole Heriberto Message-ID: <315201141618.AA1487340@client.comcast.net> Offshore pharm wish you all best in New Year! We will offer you best prices on any meds you need Viagra Cialis Valium Xanax and much more.. Please click below and check out our offer. http://papaw.onstartopper.com/?wid=100069 epicure cm ramo cy remedial gky avail nw tucker htv specie vk ashen ta buzzer ntq withdrew lnm lawrence ozb tit nzc bumblebee lr http://lionel.onstartopper.com/nomore.html From cviio at kcgrafx.com Sun Feb 27 13:58:05 2005 From: cviio at kcgrafx.com (Reginald Jacobsen) Date: Sun Feb 27 14:03:03 2005 Subject: [blml] Start shagging more frequently Message-ID: <102818853207.camel@naldoco> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050227/1ddd7539/attachment.html From fiairglnmjz at nomoney.dk Sun Feb 27 14:25:55 2005 From: fiairglnmjz at nomoney.dk (Darnell Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 14:30:52 2005 Subject: [blml] photo cops are watching you! Message-ID: <1025352514.9995.11.camel@dell_ss3.pdx.osdl.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050227/ac87aa3c/attachment.html From kramarczyk at doneasy.com Mon Feb 14 14:36:10 2005 From: kramarczyk at doneasy.com (Deon Mcdermott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: [blml] High rates? Not with us! 3.25 fixed Message-ID: <200410031400.i93ZwcTw000468@www3.gmail.com> Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. You have qualified for the lowest rate in years... You could get over $380,000 for as little as $500 a month! Ba(d credit? Doesn't matter, low rates are fixed no matter what! To get a free, no obli,gation consultation click below: http://www.123ratezz.com/x/loan.php?id=nu Best Regards, Jake Hyatt to be remov(ed: http://www.123ratezz.com/x/st.html this process takes one week, so please be patient. we do our best to take your email/s off but you have to fill out a rem/ove or else you will continue to recieve email/s. From Mikeamosbridge at aol.com Sun Feb 27 12:17:20 2005 From: Mikeamosbridge at aol.com (Mikeamosbridge@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:44:38 2005 Subject: [blml] Her first psyche Message-ID: <45.22dccfcf.2f530640@aol.com> In a message dated 26/02/2005 06:44:42 GMT Standard Time, ardelm@bigpond.net.au writes: With East dealer and nil vulnerable, the hands were Q 9 10 9 7 3 A K 10 2 Q 9 3 K 10 7 6 5 8 4 3 A Q 6 5 8 4 2 Q 7 8 5 3 7 2 J 10 6 5 A J 2 K J J 9 6 4 A K 8 4 and the bidding West North East South 1C 1NT 2S X pass 2NT all pass East's 1C was psychic, her first so with heart pounding she alerted her partner's 2S bid as "opening values showing two non touching suits". (They are not too experienced but are taking lessons from some bid master or other). At the end of the auction, West remonstrated with East about her explanation, and it became clear the West's bid was natural. I was called by North, who claimed to be damaged. I allowed him to take back his last pass, and reopen the bidding from that point, but he elected not to change his bid. Upon making 10 tricks, I was again summoned and damages were claimed, misinformation etc. I have some sympathy for East, whose bid may well have deflected the opposition from their game, which of course was routinely bid and made around the room. So, how much weight should I give for the misexplanation, the UI between the offenders before the end of the hand, the offering of a change of bid to North, and his refusal? Cheers, Tony (Sydney) As many of you know in England we classify psyches according to whether or not we frrl the psycher's partner has fielded the psyche green amber and red We have sometimes described actions like NORTH's on this type of hand as a BLUE psyche - North has fielded South's non-psyche - clearly judging that his partner and not the innocent novice in the East seat has "put one out" All I can say is that if I was North I'd want to keep very quiet about this - as all my friends would laugh at me. PP to NS for being grumpy buggers and bad sports (sort of a joke but I'd have very little time for NS) Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.amsterdamned.org/pipermail/blml/attachments/20050227/aa9e2b3a/attachment.html From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Sun Feb 27 22:29:14 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 22:28:35 2005 Subject: [blml] Why the drop in numbers? (was EBU Orange book) In-Reply-To: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E1018175A0@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Frances Hinden: >Many current bridge players have opinions about >why numbers are dropping off. Richard Hills: Not exactly my point. The numbers are dropping off in the ACBL, but the numbers are increasing in The Netherlands. What is the ACBL doing wrong, but The Netherlands is doing right? And is one of the factors the ACBL style of regulations versus The Netherlands style of regulations? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From schoderb at msn.com Mon Feb 28 01:15:48 2005 From: schoderb at msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Mon Feb 28 01:16:27 2005 Subject: [blml] Why the drop in numbers? (was EBU Orange book) References: Message-ID: A beautiful example of posing certain "facts" and "truths" and then trying to devine completely unrelated reasons. 1.. Is the ACBL losing members? 2.. Are members in ACBL the same status as members in the Netherlands association? Is the structure the same in both cases? 3.. Who is doing things "right" as opposed to wrong? Maybe we just might be talking about apples and oranges?????? I expect more from Richard Hills. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Why the drop in numbers? (was EBU Orange book) > > > > > Frances Hinden: > > >Many current bridge players have opinions about > >why numbers are dropping off. > > Richard Hills: > > Not exactly my point. The numbers are dropping > off in the ACBL, but the numbers are increasing > in The Netherlands. What is the ACBL doing > wrong, but The Netherlands is doing right? > > And is one of the factors the ACBL style of > regulations versus The Netherlands style of > regulations? > > > Best wishes > > Richard Hills > Movie grognard and general guru > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From ereppert at rochester.rr.com Mon Feb 28 01:53:56 2005 From: ereppert at rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Mon Feb 28 01:54:21 2005 Subject: [blml] Why the drop in numbers? (was EBU Orange book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <398AE010-8923-11D9-8F82-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Sunday, Feb 27, 2005, at 16:29 US/Eastern, richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > What is the ACBL doing wrong, but The Netherlands is doing right? Actually, it may not be down to this. I think a better question (or set of questions) would be "what are they doing *differently*, and are there different demographics at work?" From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 28 02:15:26 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 28 02:14:46 2005 Subject: [blml] Why the drop in numbers? (was EBU Orange book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: William Schoder: >A beautiful example of posing certain "facts" and "truths" and >then trying to divine completely unrelated reasons. > >1.. Is the ACBL losing members? Richard Hills: As of March 2003, the ACBL demographic changes were described by an internal ACBL document as, "This decline can be likened to falling off a cliff." See attached extract from a March 20th 2003 ACBL District 2 report to members. William Schoder: >2.. Are members in ACBL the same status as members in The >Netherlands association? Is the structure the same in both >cases? Richard Hills: We agree that the ACBL and The Netherlands run bridge in different ways. The question I posed was whether it might be advantageous for the ACBL if it learned from The Netherlands. William Schoder: >3.. Who is doing things "right" as opposed to wrong? Maybe >we just might be talking about apples and oranges?????? Richard Hills: If the ACBL believes that an ever-increasing average age of its members is nothing to worry about, then indeed we are talking about apples and oranges. But, if the ACBL believes that an average age of 55ish is more useful for its long-term survival than an average age of 65+, then indeed it might be advantageous for the ACBL if it learned from The Netherlands. William Schoder: >I expect more from Richard Hills. Richard Hills: Sure it is presumptuous for an Aussie to advise that ACBL succession planning policies may have been ineffective. Sure it is presumptuous for an Aussie to advise that the style of bridge in the ACBL may have had limited relevance in attracting new members who are not retirees. But my advice is merely based on data provided by the ACBL's Chief Marketing Officer, Linda Grannell, in March 2003. ACBL District 2 report to members, March 20th 2003 -> http://www3.sympatico.ca/jonathan.st/board031.html >>The ACBL's new Chief Marketing Officer, Linda Granell, >>provided us with her marketing initiatives for 2003. She >>will be presenting a three-year strategic marketing plan to >>us this summer. Meanwhile, the bottom line for 2003 and the >>foreseeable future is to increase ACBL membership. >> >>We were shown a statistical model to illustrate the >>dramatic decline of an organizations' membership. This >>decline can be likened to falling off a cliff. As the age >>of the average ACBL member increases - in 2003 this is >>greater than 65 years of age - we get ever closer to that >>cliff. Currently, the ACBL loses about one thousand members >>per month, of which seven to eight hundred are due to death. >>In February, the ACBL signed up more than eleven hundred new >>members, which was a record. But in order to achieve a >>significant increase in membership, we need to recruit >>closer to fifteen hundred new members per month. >> >>The Unit Membership Incentive Program has been dramatically >>redesigned to be user-friendly. The onerous amount of >>paperwork previously required to receive extra rebate money >>has been eliminated. Even a small increase in unit >>membership will be rewarded. Unit Presidents and >>Secretaries should have received a letter providing full >>details of the program. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru PS For what its worth, the Bridge Federation of the ACT has a Tournament Secretary who is under 30. And the Canberra Bridge Club has a Tournament Secretary who is under 25. Plus an additional two 20-something bridge players serve on those committees. From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 28 03:43:04 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 28 03:43:41 2005 Subject: [blml] Which is superior (was Obiter dictum) In-Reply-To: <421EE108.4070508@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Richard Hills: >>In my opinion, this is a "straw man" argument. Herman De Wael: >I don't really know what that means. Wikipedia: [snip] >>>As a rhetorical term, "straw man" describes a point >>>of view that was created in order to be easily >>>defeated in argument; the creator of a "straw man" >>>argument does not accurately reflect the best >>>arguments of his or her opponents, but instead >>>sidesteps or mischaracterizes them so as to make the >>>opposing view appear weak or ridiculous. [snip] >>>One can set up a straw man in several different ways: >>> 1. Present only a portion of the opponent's >>>arguments (often a weak one), refute it, and pretend >>>that all of their arguments have been refuted. >>> 2. Present the opponent's argument in weakened >>>form, refute it, and pretend that the original has >>>been refuted. >>> 3. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's >>>position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's >>>actual position has been refuted. >>> 4. Present someone who defends a position poorly >>>as *the* defender, refute their arguments, and >>>pretend that every argument for that position has >>>been refuted. >>> 5. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or >>>beliefs that are criticised, and pretend that the >>>person represents a group that the speaker is >>>critical of. >>> >>>Some logic textbooks define the straw-man fallacy only >>>as a misrepresented argument. It is now common, >>>however, to use the term to refer to all of these >>>tactics. Herman De Wael: >But the problem is that HdW might be genuinely uncertain >about what the system really is. > >Under the current laws, for a number of things it does >not matter what the real system is to determine what the >actions of the players ought to be: > >- HdW must continue bidding in what he thought his >system originally was, his partner's explanation being >UI to him; > >- HdW must refrain from correcting his partner's >explanation; and, under the HdW school: > - HdW must explain partner's next bidding under the > supposed system of partner's. > >None of these require knowledge of what is written on >the CC or in the system notes. > >In the proposed new system, actions 3 (or 2 and 3) would >require HdW to know what the system actually says. Richard Hills: In my opinion, this is again a "straw man" argument. In order for a partnership agreement to be an agreement by the partnership, at a previous point in time HdW would have to know and agree to that partnership agreement. If HdW's partner surreptitiously added words to the CC or to the system notes without HdW's knowledge, then those words would *not* be a partnership agreement. Failure by HdW to remember a partnership agreement is not (yet) an infraction of Law. However, if HdW's memory lapse caused HdW to subsequently misexplain a partnership agreement, then that is an infraction of Law 75C both now and in the future. What's the problem? Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From toddz at att.net Mon Feb 28 03:44:19 2005 From: toddz at att.net (Todd M. Zimnoch) Date: Mon Feb 28 03:44:47 2005 Subject: [blml] Why the drop in numbers? (was EBU Orange book) In-Reply-To: <398AE010-8923-11D9-8F82-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <398AE010-8923-11D9-8F82-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <42228583.6040005@att.net> Ed Reppert wrote: > On Sunday, Feb 27, 2005, richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: >> What is the ACBL doing wrong, but The Netherlands is doing right? > > Actually, it may not be down to this. I think a better question (or set > of questions) would be > "what are they doing *differently*, and are there different demographics > at work?" I'm inclined to believe that American culture is not as amenable to a large, young bridge population. As partial evidence, I submit the demoscene (see www.scene.org or http://tomaes.32x.de/text/faq.php for more details) -- a creative hobby where people essentially make their own, real-time rendered music videos. The skills and intelligence required are similar to those held by bridge players. The age of demosceners is roughly 14-35, with the bulk 18-25. The demoscene is overwhelmingly larger and more active in Europe and Australia compared to the US and Canada. There are no regulations in the demoscene. The are rules at competions, none of which have been seriously debated since the mid-90's (sound card and OS requirements). It exists on its own and left to their own devices, young Americans (as a demographic) do not seem to take to this pursuit as readily as Europeans and Australians. Nor do they take to bridge as readily. What might be interesting to compare would be Japan. The demoscene is virtually non-existant in Japan. It has a bridge culture, but how large compared to the country's population? http://www.at-m.or.jp/~kyoko/club/club.html implies a miniscule bridge culture there, but I really don't know. What I don't like about Richard's argument is that it implies young players do not like the game because of its restrictive regulations. Among bridge players my age I know, those that complain about regulations are all ACBL members. Those that are not ACBL members play very simple systems. I fall in the former category. -Todd From blml at blakjak.com Mon Feb 28 03:43:42 2005 From: blml at blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon Feb 28 03:45:08 2005 Subject: [blml] Her first psyche In-Reply-To: <001401c51be8$d605e3c0$b11d1d53@kocurzak> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050226173021.03f0e2c0@pop-server.bigpond.net.au> <001401c51be8$d605e3c0$b11d1d53@kocurzak> Message-ID: Konrad Ciborowski wrote > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tony Musgrove" >To: >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 7:44 AM >Subject: [blml] Her first psyche > > >> With East dealer and nil vulnerable, the hands were >> >> Q 9 >> 10 9 7 3 >> A K 10 2 >> Q 9 3 >> >> K 10 7 6 5 8 4 3 >> A Q 6 5 8 4 2 >> Q 7 8 5 3 >> 7 2 J 10 6 5 >> A J 2 >> K J >> J 9 6 4 >> A K 8 4 >> >> and the bidding >> >> West North East South >> 1C 1NT >> 2S X pass 2NT >> all pass >> >> East's 1C was psychic, her first so with heart pounding she >> alerted her partner's 2S bid as "opening values showing two >> non touching suits". (They are not too experienced but are >> taking lessons from some bid master or other). >> >> At the end of the auction, West remonstrated with East about >> her explanation, and it became clear the West's bid was natural. >> >> I was called by North, who claimed to be damaged. I allowed him >> to take back his last pass, and reopen the bidding from that point, >> but he elected not to change his bid. >> >> Upon making 10 tricks, I was again summoned and damages were >> claimed, misinformation etc. I have some sympathy for East, whose >> bid may well have deflected the opposition from their game, which >> of course was routinely bid and made around the room. So, how >> much weight should I give for the misexplanation, the UI between >> the offenders before the end of the hand, the offering of a change of >> bid to North, and his refusal? >> >> >> Cheers, > >I let the result stand. Failing to bid game after a natural 1NT overcall >is insane, idiotic, irrational, wild, gambling. North went nuts. While true, that only means you should let the result stand for N/S. There is still E/W to consider. If I was N/S and had been talked out of game by East's psyche you would not catch me committing the final idiocy of calling the TD and getting it published all over the internet! -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From hermandw at hdw.be Mon Feb 28 09:36:57 2005 From: hermandw at hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Mon Feb 28 09:36:15 2005 Subject: [blml] Which is superior (was Obiter dictum) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4222D829.204@hdw.be> richard.hills@immi.gov.au wrote: > > > Herman De Wael: > > >>But the problem is that HdW might be genuinely uncertain >>about what the system really is. >> >>Under the current laws, for a number of things it does >>not matter what the real system is to determine what the >>actions of the players ought to be: >> >>- HdW must continue bidding in what he thought his >>system originally was, his partner's explanation being >>UI to him; >> >>- HdW must refrain from correcting his partner's >>explanation; and, under the HdW school: >> - HdW must explain partner's next bidding under the >> supposed system of partner's. >> >>None of these require knowledge of what is written on >>the CC or in the system notes. >> >>In the proposed new system, actions 3 (or 2 and 3) would >>require HdW to know what the system actually says. > > > Richard Hills: > > In my opinion, this is again a "straw man" argument. In > order for a partnership agreement to be an agreement by > the partnership, at a previous point in time HdW would > have to know and agree to that partnership agreement. If > HdW's partner surreptitiously added words to the CC or to > the system notes without HdW's knowledge, then those > words would *not* be a partnership agreement. > > Failure by HdW to remember a partnership agreement is not > (yet) an infraction of Law. However, if HdW's memory > lapse caused HdW to subsequently misexplain a partnership > agreement, then that is an infraction of Law 75C both now > and in the future. > I see your point. You don't buy the argument that a player might not know what his true agreement is, once he has heard two possible explanations. That is true, of course, but then you are forgetting one thing: the important thing here is not the true agreement, but rather what the TD will accept as being the true agreement. And for that the player needs to know whether or not he'll be able to prove that his partner misbid, rather than that he misexplained. And that can be genuinely unknown. And still, the player might be trying to cheat his way out of the case. He might be certain that he had the right system all along, but still go with the first explanation by his partner. You will never be able to prove that he willingly lied about what he thought his system was. > What's the problem? > This is it. > > Best wishes > > Richard Hills > Movie grognard and general guru > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From t.kooyman at worldonline.nl Mon Feb 28 09:46:55 2005 From: t.kooyman at worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Mon Feb 28 10:39:23 2005 Subject: [blml] Why the drop in numbers? (was EBU Orange book) References: Message-ID: <002801c51d79$533b4a10$55f6f0c3@LNV> Let me give you some facts then. The membership in the Netherlands after many years of growth is declining at the moment. The average age is 62 years or even more at the moment and we do not attract enough young people. That really is the weakness. On the other hand the growth in the last decades came from older people too. We had a fantastic bridge course for which we interested a national TV-channel more than 20 years ago and that brought us 10.000s of new members. We seem to get something similar in the near future and that might be a new impulse for Dutch bridge. Another factor that seems important to popularize this game is the costs. Bridge in the Netherlands is cheap. You pay less than 100m dollars per year as a contribution to a club and then you play for a year a weekly session in a group of 'peers'. No table money, no extra's. The big problem everywhere is that we do not attract publicity channels at all. ton > >A beautiful example of posing certain "facts" and "truths" and > >then trying to divine completely unrelated reasons. > > > >1.. Is the ACBL losing members? > > Richard Hills: > > As of March 2003, the ACBL demographic changes were described > by an internal ACBL document as, "This decline can be likened > to falling off a cliff." See attached extract from a March > 20th 2003 ACBL District 2 report to members. > > William Schoder: > > >2.. Are members in ACBL the same status as members in The > >Netherlands association? Is the structure the same in both > >cases? > > Richard Hills: > > We agree that the ACBL and The Netherlands run bridge in > different ways. The question I posed was whether it might be > advantageous for the ACBL if it learned from The Netherlands. > > William Schoder: > > >3.. Who is doing things "right" as opposed to wrong? Maybe > >we just might be talking about apples and oranges?????? > > Richard Hills: > > If the ACBL believes that an ever-increasing average age of > its members is nothing to worry about, then indeed we are > talking about apples and oranges. But, if the ACBL believes > that an average age of 55ish is more useful for its long-term > survival than an average age of 65+, then indeed it might be > advantageous for the ACBL if it learned from The Netherlands. > > William Schoder: > > >I expect more from Richard Hills. > > Richard Hills: > > Sure it is presumptuous for an Aussie to advise that ACBL > succession planning policies may have been ineffective. Sure > it is presumptuous for an Aussie to advise that the style of > bridge in the ACBL may have had limited relevance in > attracting new members who are not retirees. > > But my advice is merely based on data provided by the ACBL's > Chief Marketing Officer, Linda Grannell, in March 2003. > > ACBL District 2 report to members, March 20th 2003 -> > http://www3.sympatico.ca/jonathan.st/board031.html > > >>The ACBL's new Chief Marketing Officer, Linda Granell, > >>provided us with her marketing initiatives for 2003. She > >>will be presenting a three-year strategic marketing plan to > >>us this summer. Meanwhile, the bottom line for 2003 and the > >>foreseeable future is to increase ACBL membership. > >> > >>We were shown a statistical model to illustrate the > >>dramatic decline of an organizations' membership. This > >>decline can be likened to falling off a cliff. As the age > >>of the average ACBL member increases - in 2003 this is > >>greater than 65 years of age - we get ever closer to that > >>cliff. Currently, the ACBL loses about one thousand members > >>per month, of which seven to eight hundred are due to death. > >>In February, the ACBL signed up more than eleven hundred new > >>members, which was a record. But in order to achieve a > >>significant increase in membership, we need to recruit > >>closer to fifteen hundred new members per month. > >> > >>The Unit Membership Incentive Program has been dramatically > >>redesigned to be user-friendly. The onerous amount of > >>paperwork previously required to receive extra rebate money > >>has been eliminated. Even a small increase in unit > >>membership will be rewarded. Unit Presidents and > >>Secretaries should have received a letter providing full > >>details of the program. > > Best wishes > > Richard Hills > Movie grognard and general guru > > PS For what its worth, the Bridge Federation of the ACT has > a Tournament Secretary who is under 30. And the Canberra > Bridge Club has a Tournament Secretary who is under 25. Plus > an additional two 20-something bridge players serve on those > committees. > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@amsterdamned.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From nibble at doramail.com Mon Feb 14 14:36:10 2005 From: nibble at doramail.com (Ricardo Rodriguez) Date: Mon Feb 28 12:10:47 2005 Subject: [blml] Become a homeowner with low rates Message-ID: bqeyhc33juy5vubacxr8sdz18joj91.i93IjzTw007289@vais.net> Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. You have qualified for the lowest rate in years... 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Please click below and check out our offer. http://actress.verylovpriceviagra.info/in.php?aid=44 %TEXT[2-5] %TEXT[2-5] From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 28 21:42:48 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 28 21:42:39 2005 Subject: [blml] EBU Orange book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Stevenson: [snip] >Anyway, the EBU Council said that conventions with no bridge merit >should not be permitted, and Roche was deleted. This caused an outcry. >This was before my time on the L&EC, and I thought they were >bark^H^H^H^Hmisguided because it was played in a lot of clubs. > >A few years later half-way through a wet afternoon on the L&EC when I >was presenting things to them for agreement they looked so somnolent >that I offered Roche in my most bored voice and it went through >unchallenged!! Richard Hills: Newsflash -> RJH agrees with DWS! :-) If average bridgeurs *enjoy* playing unsound conventions which give them bottoms, why on earth should a sponsoring organisation protect those bridgeurs from themselves? What is wrong with David's object all sublime, to let the punishment fit the crime? Another blmler obliquely criticised David's ethics. But I see no ethical difference between false-carding an opponent at the table, and false-carding a regulations committee, especially when the greater good of the enjoyment of average bridgeurs was David's object. Note: That other blmler has admitted that he is occasionally grumpy, and has occasionally apologised for such grumpiness. However, in my opinion, that other blmler has a tendency towards ad hominem criticisms of David Stevenson which, in my opinion, have no place in what should be, in my opinion, reasoned and reasonable blml discussions. Best wishes Richard Hills Movie grognard and general guru From richard.hills at immi.gov.au Mon Feb 28 22:09:09 2005 From: richard.hills at immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Mon Feb 28 22:08:59 2005 Subject: [blml] Which is superior (was Obiter dictum) In-Reply-To: <4222D829.204@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Herman De Wael: [snip] >the important thing here is not the true agreement, but rather >what the TD will accept as being the true agreement. [snip] Richard Hills: This so-called "important thing" is also a point similar to one apparently supported by Adam Wildavsky. (I have not fully grasped the nuances of the Wildavsky position, which I think he admitted was extraneous-to-Law practical advice, thus not a binding consequence of Law.) >From my recollection of discussion in a thread of a few years ago, I believe that David Stevenson and I jointly accept a different position. I believe that David and I are in accord in that one should tell the truth as one sees it about one's partnership agreement, even if one suspects that a TD's Law 85 assessment will not agree with one's version of the facts. Herman De Wael: [snip] >You will never be able to prove that he willingly lied about >what he thought his system was. Richard Hills: In my opinion, that is another "straw man" argument. In my opinion, only disciplinary hearings require the criminal standard of proof "beyond reasonable doubt". In my opinion, Law 85 assessment of disputed facts require the lesser civil standard of proof "balance of probabilities". And, when a TD assesses the balance, a player who is known to be a habitual liar is usually weighed in the balance and found wanting. 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