From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Wed Sep 1 05:50:15 2004 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:50:15 +1000 Subject: [blml] Myxomatosis Message-ID: Excerpts from a cordial correspondence with a baffled bunny. Best wishes Richard James Hills * * * Law states that damage *consequent* upon an infraction must be compensated. Law also states that damage which is merely *subsequent* to an infraction must not be compensated. Examples: (a) Napoleon lost the battle of Waterloo. *Subsequently* George misbid. (b) G + N were misinformed and *consequently* had no chance to bid their heart slam. Merely *subsequent* damage is known as "rub of the green", a term deriving from the game of billiards. [snip] No, as either Tournament Director or Appeals Committee Chair, I always rule according to Law. The relevant overall Law when bunnies appeal is Law 72A1 -> "Duplicate bridge tournaments should be played in strict accordance with the Laws." My bridge Justice is blind, with both experts and bunnies getting the same ruling from me. Because of Law 72A1, as TD or AC chair, I am not permitted to give bunnies a mulligan or a freebie when the Laws require me to rule against bunnies. From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Wed Sep 1 07:33:00 2004 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:33:00 +1000 Subject: [blml] Equitable competition Message-ID: In the thread "Pass out of turn - a very easy one", David Stevenson criticised Sven Pran: >>>>Yes, but it does not follow the Laws, but your >>>>own feelings of what should be. In this current thread, Kojak criticised David: >>>For David: Nicely, firmly stated, but completely >>>indefensible. No where can I find even an >>>interpretation that makes your statement correct. >>> >>>Please educate me. David Stevenson contains multitudes: >>See what BLML has done to me? No-one opens the >>law book here any more [yes, I know that is an >>exaggeration, but not as many as could] so I >>fell into the trap of assuming I knew L44 without >>looking at it. >> >>OK, it is custom+practice, not a Law. But is >>that not enough? Walt Whitman (1819-1892): >Do I contradict myself? >Very well then I contradict myself, >(I am large, I contain multitudes.) Richard Hills black-letter lawyering: The world is not enough. Custom + practice is not enough. Ruling strictly according to the Laws gives a TD a big moral advantage when (not if) a ruled-against party complains about the TD's ruling. Best wishes RJH From twm@cix.co.uk Wed Sep 1 07:58:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] ANeCdote In-Reply-To: <000a01c48e71$d5e638e0$0307a8c0@PlusNet> Message-ID: David Barton wrote: > > (b) the board arrives at the other table with the S and W hands > interchanged. > > Now L72B1 does NOT allow you to allocate the blame to S. It states "When > the Director deems that an offender...." ie only after you have > determined a side HAS offended can you apply L72B1. In this scenario it is quite likely that *both* South and West have offended. Certainly if investigation reveals that both players put their hands into the wrong pocket we have two offenders (not none). After all we *know* that there is *at least one* offender. However, only the offender facing a 13IMP loss "could have known" it would work to his advantage so only that offender is relevant for a L72b1 adjustment. Tim From twm@cix.co.uk Wed Sep 1 07:58:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] ANeCdote In-Reply-To: <000001c48e66$a6467420$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: > > David Stevenson > ................ > > We are talking of a specific case, where a player *either* cheats > > by > > "accidentally" trying for a fouled board, *or* it really is an > > accident > > and is *pure coincidence* that it happens when he was about to lose 13 > > imps. > > > > The law-makers recognised problem like this and put in a Law > > specifically to deal with them: L72B1, with its 'could have known' and > > its failure to require accusation of wrongdoing. > > > > So why should a TD know better than the law-makers? Why are you > > unhappy to apply the law that was written for this situation? > > > > It is important to learn that a TD is the man who is the man who is > > meant to support non-offending players. The attitude of not caring > > for > > non-offending sides is not what we want in bridge. > > I have yet to see that we are discussing a specific case and we have no > other description that that a board has been found fouled. We have no > description of in what way the board was fouled or how it was discovered > that it was fouled. > > So this discussion is not on a specific case, it is a discussion on > principles in general, and the only basis for this discussion is that > some > irregularity which has led to a fouled board prevents a board to be > scored > normally for at least one table. > > I have experienced three major causes for a board to be fouled (four if > we > include the possibility that some copies of a pre-duplicated board was > fouled already in the dealing process): > > 1: A player fails to take his cards properly from "his" pocket of the > board > and count them face down according to the procedure prescribed in Law > 7B. > (It is little excuse for that player if one or more cards appear face > up in > his hand during this process, he should handle all his thirteen cards in > such a way that possible problems are discovered without exposing any > card > to the other players at the table). > > 2: A player fails to return the cards to "his" pocket of the board > according > to the procedure prescribed in Law 7C. > > 3: Some person (illegally) removes cards from a board, looks at them and > subsequently fails to return them correctly to that board. > > Incidents like this occur extremely seldom in matches between teams of > four where boards are played only at two tables by players Indeed. And it is the very rarity of such occurrences which should trigger suspicions of deliberate malfeasance in all but the most naive minds. > I understand that David advocates a general use of Law 72B1 to penalize > the player last having played a board which is subsequently found fouled > on the reason that this player most likely "could have been the culprit" > according to case 2 above. Then you misunderstand. All David is saying is that in some (fairly rare) cases the TD needs an *option* of applying L72b1. > > Law 72B1 begins with the words: "Whenever the Director deems that an > offender could have known at the time of the irregularity that the > irregularity would be likely to damage the non-offending side ..." > > I am convinced that this precise wording is intentional; Law 72B1 does > not allow the Director to "judge" that a particular player "could be the > most likely offender". The Director may still "judge" so from Law 85 but > here he must be very careful and open for all alternatively possible > causes of the irregularity. The purpose of Law 85B appears to be > permitting the play to continue, not to establish who is an offender. Establishing who is an offender is a matter for TD judgement. As I stated in another reply there may be multiple offenders, there cannot be none. > Law 72B1 applies when the established offender in an irregularity "could > have known ..." freeing the Director from having to show intent by this > offender. Indeed > When a board must be cancelled due to being fouled in whatever way and > the Director has no evidence on who caused this he may of course remind > the players on Law 7, but IMO he goes too far if he awards any adjusted > score or impose any PP (except this warning) against any of the involved > sides. Some pairs games impose, by regulation, a small PP for all misboardings. I don't have a problem with this approach as it tends only to be used when habitual carelessness has become an issue. Tim From twm@cix.co.uk Wed Sep 1 07:58:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] ANeCdote In-Reply-To: <000201c48e87$411c4f40$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: > But I do wonder: Is it customary to take the cards from the pocket and > immediately expose them with their (assumed) rear sides to opponents so > that if one or more cards happened to be turned the wrong way it will > really be exposed? A pretty common method is to remove the cards and count them from hand-to -hand, somewhat below the edge of the table, in bunches of 3/4, fanning slightly to check that no cards are stuck together. I'm moderately tall and have no problems seeing the backs of the cards as opps do this. Obviously I keep a close eye on this process in case my teammate has deliberately boxed a key card after a bad result. Blaming a player for exposing a boxed card during his count is wholly wrong IMO. The blame lies 100% with the boxer. From jean-pierre.rocafort@meteo.fr Wed Sep 1 08:28:59 2004 From: jean-pierre.rocafort@meteo.fr (jean-pierre.rocafort@meteo.fr) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:28:59 +0200 Subject: [blml] =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9f=2E_=3A_[blml]_Myxomatosis?= Message-ID: richard.hills@immi.gov.au Envoy=E9 par : blml-admin@rtflb.org 01/09/2004 06:50 =20 Pour : blml@rtflb.org cc :=20 Objet : [blml] Myxomatosis Excerpts from a cordial correspondence with a baffled bunny. Best wishes Richard James Hills * * * Law states that damage *consequent* upon an infraction must be compensated. Law also states that damage which is merely *subsequent* to an infraction must not be compensated. Examples: (a) Napoleon lost the battle of Waterloo. *Subsequently* George misbid. (b) G + N were misinformed and *consequently* had no chance to bid their heart slam. Merely *subsequent* damage is known as "rub of the green", a term deriving from the game of billiards. [snip] No, as either Tournament Director or Appeals Committee Chair, I always rule according to Law. The relevant overall Law when bunnies appeal is Law 72A1 -> "Duplicate bridge tournaments should be played in strict accordance with the Laws." *** L72A1 is a meaningless law: either you don't strictly stick to bridge laws = and you will happen to get around L72A1 as well as any other one; or you=20 strictly rule in accordance to the laws and you don't need a recursive one = to be reminded that a law is a law. jp rocafort ***=20 My bridge Justice is blind, with both experts and bunnies getting the same ruling from me. Because of Law 72A1, as TD or AC chair, I am not permitted to give bunnies a mulligan or a freebie when the Laws require me to rule against bunnies. =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F Jean-Pierre Rocafort METEO-FRANCE DSI/SC/D 42 Avenue Gaspard Coriolis 31057 Toulouse CEDEX Tph: 05 61 07 81 02 (33 5 61 07 81 02) Fax: 05 61 07 81 09 (33 5 61 07 81 09) e-mail: jean-pierre.rocafort@meteo.fr Serveur WWW METEO-FRANCE: http://www.meteo.fr =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F From larry@charmschool.fsnet.co.uk Wed Sep 1 09:16:14 2004 From: larry@charmschool.fsnet.co.uk (Larry Bennett) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:16:14 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b Message-ID: <000b01c48ffc$0bffcaa0$a5c5883e@pentium41600> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b after four passes? Larry From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 1 09:42:11 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:42:11 +0200 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <000b01c48ffc$0bffcaa0$a5c5883e@pentium41600> Message-ID: <000301c48fff$93027220$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Larry Bennett > Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b > after four passes? > > Larry He sure can (until we get rid of that law, hopefully in 2006) Sven From gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk Wed Sep 1 09:51:56 2004 From: gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:51:56 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <000301c48fff$93027220$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000301c48fff$93027220$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <2DBCEE66-FBF4-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 1 Sep 2004, at 09:42, Sven Pran wrote: >> Larry Bennett >> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b >> after four passes? >> >> Larry > > He sure can Until when? > (until we get rid of that law, hopefully in 2006) -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 1 11:22:41 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:41 +0200 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <2DBCEE66-FBF4-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> Message-ID: <000601c4900d$9d4d25f0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Gordon Rainsford > On 1 Sep 2004, at 09:42, Sven Pran wrote: > >> Larry Bennett > >> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b > >> after four passes? > >> > >> Larry > > > > He sure can >=20 > Until when? Oh NO! Please let us avoid another discussion on what the laws actually = say and don't say. At least I am not going to take part in it beyond stating = as my opinion: By using "common sense" for the purpose of applying Law 25 I shall = consider the action by a player (partner or LHO as the case may be) of returning cards to the board as equivalent to "making a call". (There is no law in the book specifically addressing this situation = which is far more critical and important when it comes to possibly applying = L25A). Sven From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 1 11:30:29 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:30:29 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b References: <000301c48fff$93027220$6900a8c0@WINXP> <2DBCEE66-FBF4-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> Message-ID: <001601c4900e$b4d7cd00$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> [Gordon Rainsford] > Until when? [Sveb Pran] >> (until we get rid of that law, >> hopefully in 2006) [Nigel] Very good, Gordon :) Sven is right 25B (and the like) should be repealed. Naive players don't invoke them because they cannot believe that a game would tolerate them :( --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24-Aug-04 From gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk Wed Sep 1 13:29:20 2004 From: gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:29:20 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <001601c4900e$b4d7cd00$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> References: <000301c48fff$93027220$6900a8c0@WINXP> <2DBCEE66-FBF4-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> <001601c4900e$b4d7cd00$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> Message-ID: <8CD58AEB-FC12-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 1 Sep 2004, at 11:30, Nigel Guthrie wrote: > [Gordon Rainsford] >> Until when? > [Sveb Pran] >>> (until we get rid of that law, >>> hopefully in 2006) > [Nigel] > Very good, Gordon :) Sven is right 25B (and the > like) should be repealed. Naive players don't > invoke them because they cannot believe that a > game would tolerate them :( Nigel, you've presented this as though Sven's comment (which chronologically preceded my question) was in answer to it. My question related to when (in the life of an auction) we can apply L25b. Sven thinks we can apply L25b after a hand has been passed out, unless LHO has managed to put their hand back in the board quickly enough. I made no comment about whether or not L25b should be repealed. -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk Wed Sep 1 13:29:33 2004 From: gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:29:33 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <000601c4900d$9d4d25f0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000601c4900d$9d4d25f0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <94840224-FC12-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 1 Sep 2004, at 11:22, Sven Pran wrote: >> Gordon Rainsford >> On 1 Sep 2004, at 09:42, Sven Pran wrote: >>>> Larry Bennett >>>> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b >>>> after four passes? >>>> >>>> Larry >>> >>> He sure can >> >> Until when? > > Oh NO! Please let us avoid another discussion on what the laws > actually say > and don't say. Why would we avoid that, especially in this forum? And what do you think this thread is about anyway? > At least I am not going to take part in it beyond stating as > my opinion: > > By using "common sense" for the purpose of applying Law 25 I shall > consider > the action by a player (partner or LHO as the case may be) of returning > cards to the board as equivalent to "making a call". So, whether or not you can take advantage of L25b depends, in your view, on how quick LHO is at returning the cards to the board? > > (There is no law in the book specifically addressing this situation > which is > far more critical and important when it comes to possibly applying > L25A). I think you've increased the importance of L25b by opening up this can of worms. -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 1 14:21:38 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:21:38 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b References: <000301c48fff$93027220$6900a8c0@WINXP> <2DBCEE66-FBF4-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> <001601c4900e$b4d7cd00$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> <8CD58AEB-FC12-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> Message-ID: <004501c49026$9d7712c0$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> > Nigel, you've presented this as though > Sven's comment (which chronologically > preceded my question) was in answer to > it. My question related to when (in the > life of an auction) we can apply L25b. > Sven thinks we can apply L25b after a > hand has been passed out, unless LHO > has managed to put their hand back in > the board quickly enough. I made no > comment about whether or not L25b > should be repealed. [Nigel] Sorry Gordon, I understand. It was just one of my pathetic attempts at humour. (: and, for once, I did remember the smiley :). I was expressing my *own* opinion that 25b and similar laws are unnecessary. These laws are rarely invoked by naive players -- because they can't imagine a card game (except for small children) in which you are allowed to retract played cards or change legal bids that you have already made. Such laws also increase the "judgement" burden on TDs. Even if TDs revel in this challenge, their rulings usually appear unfair and unfounded to the losing sides. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24-Aug-04 From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 1 14:26:27 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:26:27 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b Message-ID: <004d01c49027$497141e0$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> [Nigel] > These laws are rarely invoked by naive players -- > because they can't imagine a card game (except for > small children) in which you are allowed to > retract played cards or change legal bids that you > have already made. [: Nigel anticipating quibble :] For "bids" please read "calls". Sorry. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24-Aug-04 From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 1 14:58:15 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:58:15 -0400 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <001601c4900e$b4d7cd00$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> Message-ID: On Wednesday, Sep 1, 2004, at 06:30 US/Eastern, Nigel Guthrie wrote: > Naive players don't > invoke them because they cannot believe that a > game would tolerate them :( Bull. They don't invoke them because they don't know they exist. From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 1 15:04:08 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:04:08 +0200 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <94840224-FC12-11D8-AF46-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> Message-ID: <000001c4902c$8cdab240$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Gordon Rainsford > Sent: 1. september 2004 14:30 > Cc: blml > Subject: Re: [blml] to be or not 2b > > > On 1 Sep 2004, at 11:22, Sven Pran wrote: > > >> Gordon Rainsford > >> On 1 Sep 2004, at 09:42, Sven Pran wrote: > >>>> Larry Bennett > >>>> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b > >>>> after four passes? > >>>> > >>>> Larry > >>> > >>> He sure can > >> > >> Until when? > > > > Oh NO! Please let us avoid another discussion on what the laws > > actually say > > and don't say. > > Why would we avoid that, especially in this forum? And what do you > think this thread is about anyway? > > > At least I am not going to take part in it beyond stating as > > my opinion: > > > > By using "common sense" for the purpose of applying Law 25 I shall > > consider > > the action by a player (partner or LHO as the case may be) of returning > > cards to the board as equivalent to "making a call". > > So, whether or not you can take advantage of L25b depends, in your > view, on how quick LHO is at returning the cards to the board? Yes, exactly as it depends upon how quick LHO is to make a call in the regular case. > > > > (There is no law in the book specifically addressing this situation > > which is > > far more critical and important when it comes to possibly applying > > L25A). > > I think you've increased the importance of L25b by opening up this can > of worms. > > -- > Gordon Rainsford > London UK > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk Wed Sep 1 16:05:10 2004 From: gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:05:10 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <000001c4902c$8cdab240$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000001c4902c$8cdab240$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <5182F99C-FC28-11D8-A561-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 1 Sep 2004, at 15:04, Sven Pran wrote: >> >> So, whether or not you can take advantage of L25b depends, in your >> view, on how quick LHO is at returning the cards to the board? > > Yes, exactly as it depends upon how quick LHO is to make a call in the > regular case. I look forward to future discussions about how we decide whether or not a hand has yet been returned to the board. -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 1 16:22:44 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:22:44 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b References: Message-ID: <006a01c49037$87dfab00$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> [Ed Reppert] > Bull. They don't invoke them because > they don't know they exist. [Nigel] (: I reckon I implied that, Ed :) Your reaction notwithstanding, surprisingly, we appear to agree that, in practice, this law is more biased than most, against naive players. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24-Aug-04 From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 1 16:41:45 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:41:45 +0200 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <006a01c49037$87dfab00$0e9468d5@jeushtlj> Message-ID: <000201c4903a$2fe49930$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Nigel Guthrie > [Ed Reppert] > > Bull. They don't invoke them because > > they don't know they exist. > [Nigel] > (: I reckon I implied that, Ed :) Your reaction > notwithstanding, surprisingly, we appear to agree > that, in practice, this law is more biased than > most, against naive players. I believe the first time I ever have had any ruling under L25B was = during the recent Norwegian Bridge Festival which included several national championships during its 10 days of bridge. And as expected I received four astonished faces when I explained to the players the availability of Law 25B. For once a player took the = opportunity! (This created quite some excitement among us directors) I shall miss the astonishments, but I shall not miss that law. Sven From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 1 19:39:29 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:39:29 +0100 Subject: [blml] Ambiguity - I think not. References: <007101c48e85$5718bc90$1328fea9@Desktop> Message-ID: <004101c49053$04d6fc60$719468d5@jeushtlj> [WILLIAM SCHODER] > David. How about a bet? I'll bet > that this becomes another one of those > threads where we painfully squeeze, > interpret, define, analyse, and contort > a simple passage of the Laws into a > marvelous enlightenment. Bet? [Nigel] Please reserve a silk-purse for me, Kojak :) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24-Aug-04 From blml@blakjak.com Thu Sep 2 00:27:23 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:27:23 +0100 Subject: [blml] Equitable competition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2kpiV9LbrlNBFwjM@blakjak.demon.co.uk> wrote > > > > >In the thread "Pass out of turn - a very easy >one", David Stevenson criticised Sven Pran: > >>>>>Yes, but it does not follow the Laws, but your >>>>>own feelings of what should be. > >In this current thread, Kojak criticised David: > >>>>For David: Nicely, firmly stated, but completely >>>>indefensible. No where can I find even an >>>>interpretation that makes your statement correct. >>>> >>>>Please educate me. > >David Stevenson contains multitudes: > >>>See what BLML has done to me? No-one opens the >>>law book here any more [yes, I know that is an >>>exaggeration, but not as many as could] so I >>>fell into the trap of assuming I knew L44 without >>>looking at it. >>> >>>OK, it is custom+practice, not a Law. But is >>>that not enough? > >Walt Whitman (1819-1892): > >>Do I contradict myself? >>Very well then I contradict myself, >>(I am large, I contain multitudes.) > >Richard Hills black-letter lawyering: > >The world is not enough. >Custom + practice is not enough. > >Ruling strictly according to the Laws gives a TD a >big moral advantage when (not if) a ruled-against >party complains about the TD's ruling. Is BLML not an adult forum? Do we have to dot *every* i and cross *every* t? Can we not assume that a modicum of common-sense exists? Of course we follow the Laws: I was merely referring to a case where no Law says anything. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From svenpran@online.no Thu Sep 2 08:15:32 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:15:32 +0200 Subject: [blml] Again at the local club In-Reply-To: <000701c48f0c$9320db00$6401a8c0@hare> Message-ID: <000301c490bc$a23c78e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Nancy Dressing asked: The bidding had gotten to the point of asking for Aces with a 4 Club = when obvious bid.=A0 After 4 Clubs, the auction was pass, 4H, (1 ace) Pass, = 4S, all pass. As the leader was preparing to lead the 4H bidder said, "I didn't = mean to bid 4H, I meant 4S."=A0 Director was called to the table and after = hearing the auction and the explanation that the 4H bidder had meant to bid 4S, = the director stated that the ACBL had a new law change and the 4H bidder was = now allowed to change his bid to 4S and after this change, the 4C bidder now = bid 6S!=A0 Is this correct???=A0 Can you tell me what this new law might = be??? Or what law would apply in this situation?? My ruling would be change of = call as described in law 25. So would mine. I don't know the peculiarities that might exist within = ACBL but I would be extremely surprised if they had anything to overrule the = time limit set forth in Law 25A: "Until his partner makes a call....." That time limit has certainly expired for a Law 25A change which = otherwise would have been applicable here ("I didn't intend to"). And just to have mentioned it: The time limit for Law 25B expired = already when LHO made his call. =A0 Nancy Dressing further asked: In another call, same game, same director, play was going on and the = lead was in dummy and declarer was leading from Kxx.=A0 Declarer said club, = then it went CJ, low, low and now declarer said I called for the King.=A0=A0Both opponents heard her say club which dummy played, dummy pleaded didn't remember (no one heard the King mentioned) and=A0 when the director was called, he allowed the change of play from the dummy to be the lead of = the King.=A0 After all four players had played to the trick, is this = correction valid????=A0 Is this the same as the "Oh, S..." rule??? The declarer is = a novice player and could very easily have forgotten the Jack was high, if this is taken into consideration in making the ruling.=A0 How is this handled???=A0 And what laws would apply.=A0 45C4b?=A0 Yes, either that or L45D if the Director finds that declarer really = asked for the King. L45D permits correction as long as neither side has played = a card to the next trick so under this law the correction is in order.=20 If the Director is convinced that there really was a misnomer then Law = 45C4b applies and the correction is still OK, but with me as Director I am not very easy to convince. However, with a novice player I would often allow more than from an experienced player, although I would teach her a = little about how to play from dummy. (Law 45C4a is also worth reading!) regards Sven From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Thu Sep 2 13:28:12 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:28:12 +0100 Subject: [blml] Again at the local club References: <000301c490bc$a23c78e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <001901c490e8$50a01f60$0a9468d5@jeushtlj> [Nancy Dressing] >> After all four players had played >> to the trick, is this correction >> valid???? Is this the same as the >> "Oh, S..." rule??? [Nigel] If so, the rule is aptly named. I agree with Nancy that it all seems completely ridiculous. [Sven Pran] > L45C4B or L45D permits correction > as long as neither side has played > a card to the next trick so under > this law the correction is in order. [Nigel] Almost all the laws that allow a player to take back a call or play are inappropriate in a game for grown-ups. [Sven Pran] > ...but with me as Director I am not > very easy to convince. [Nigel] Some UK TDs seem easy to convince. Nancy's experience shows how important it is nowadays, to take care choosing which TD, you call. [L45C4B] A player may, without penalty, change an inadvertent designation if he does so without pause for thought; but if an opponent has, in turn, played a card that was legal before the change in designation, that opponent may withdraw without penalty the card so played and substitute another (see Law 47E). [L45D] If dummy places in the played position a card that declarer did not name, the card must be withdrawn if attention is drawn to it before each side has played to the next trick, and a defender may withdraw (without penalty) a card played after the error but before attention was drawn to it; if declarer's RHO changes his play, declarer may withdraw a card he had subsequently played to that trick (see Law 16C2). --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24-Aug-04 From svenpran@online.no Thu Sep 2 13:54:00 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:54:00 +0200 Subject: [blml] Again at the local club In-Reply-To: <001901c490e8$50a01f60$0a9468d5@jeushtlj> Message-ID: <000001c490eb$eb120ec0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Nigel Guthrie ............ > [Sven Pran] > > L45C4B or L45D permits correction > > as long as neither side has played > > a card to the next trick so under > > this law the correction is in order. I'd appreciate when being quoted that the quotation is correct. I never wrote L45C4B in this context (only L45D) and L45C4b certainly = does not use this criterion as a time limit. The criterion in L45C4b is that the change must be "without pause for thought" which involves a matter of judgment, and analogous to law 25A = where we have a similar condition I would rule (if a ruling on this question should ever be required) that the absolute time limit for applying = L45C4b is when partner subsequently has played to the same trick or when the trick = is quitted, whichever occurs first. Sven From picatou@uqss.uquebec.ca Thu Sep 2 14:47:47 2004 From: picatou@uqss.uquebec.ca (Laval Dubreuil) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:47:47 -0400 Subject: [blml] Again at the local club In-Reply-To: <000701c48f0c$9320db00$6401a8c0@hare> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C490D1.E7549060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message The bidding had gotten to the point of asking for Aces with a 4 Club when obvious bid. After 4 Clubs, the auction was pass, 4H, (1 ace) Pass, 4S, all pass. As the leader was preparing to lead the 4H bidder said, "I didn't mean to bid 4H, I meant 4S." Director was called to the table and after hearing the auction and the explanation that the 4H bidder had meant to bid 4S, the director stated that the ACBL had a new law change and the 4H bidder was now allowed to change his bid to 4S and after this change, the 4C bidder now bid 6S! Is this correct??? Can you tell me what this new law might be??? Or what law would apply in this situation?? My ruling would be change of call as described in law 25. ______________________________________________________________________ In know that Law 25 is one of the worst in TFLB (and will bee changed ....), but this "Director" would need some kind of help..... Law 25 (A or B) never allows a change of call after partner made a subsequent call. The reason of the "inadvertent" call has no importance. Be more to the game next time. WBF makes the Laws, not ACBL or other local authorities. There are no provision in Law 25 to allow such interpretation by ACBL and I am sure they don't. Laval Du Breuil Quebec City ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C490D1.E7549060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

 
The = bidding had=20 gotten to the point of asking for Aces with a 4 Club when obvious 
 bid. =20 After 4 Clubs, the auction was pass, 4H, (1 ace) Pass, 4S, all pass. = As=20 the 
  leader was preparing to lead = the 4H=20 bidder said, "I didn't mean to bid 4H, I meant 
  4S."  = Director was=20 called to the table and after hearing the auction and the  
 explanation = that the 4H=20 bidder had meant to bid 4S, the director stated that the  
 ACBL had a=20 new law change and the 4H bidder was now allowed to change his 
  bid to 4S=20 and after this change, the 4C bidder now bid 6S!  Is this=20 correct???  
  Can you=20 tell me what this new law might be??? Or what law would apply in = this 
 =20 situation?? My ruling would be change of call as described in law=20 = 25.
______________________________________________= ________________________
 
In = know that Law=20 25 is one of the worst in TFLB (and will bee changed=20 ....),
but = this=20 "Director" would need some kind of help.....
 
Law = 25 (A or B)=20 never allows a change of call after partner made a subsequent=20 call.
The = reason of the=20 "inadvertent" call has no importance. Be more to the game=20 next
time.
 
WBF = makes the=20 Laws, not ACBL or other local authorities. There are no=20 provision
in = Law 25 to allow=20 such interpretation by ACBL and I am sure they = don't.
 
Laval Du=20 Breuil
Quebec=20 City
 
 
= ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C490D1.E7549060-- From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Thu Sep 2 22:38:14 2004 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:38:14 +1000 Subject: [blml] Equitable competition Message-ID: Kojak: >I'm sorry to have you, Nigel, and any others, feel >vilified by my postings. (By the way, vilify is >listed as one of the 10 most misspelled words in >English. Seems the second "i" is frequently >spelled "e.") It is never my intent to use abusive >or slanderous language about anyone; calumniate; >revile; defame; treat contemptuously; disparage; >belittle; or badly wound vulnerable egos. RJH: I sometimes avoid offence by couching my rodomontade in the form of a sestina. Kojak: >It is always my intent to preach that the Laws of >Duplicate Bridge, 1997, -- albeit written in >language that leaves something to be desired -- is >a useable entity. If that produces "heat" I'm ready >to take it. RJH: On Sunday, I was chair of an appeals committee, and ruled on two appeals from the same match. In one, I ruled against a bunny team because a bunny pair stuffed up the auction. (The infraction of misexplanation.) In the other, I ruled against the bunny team, despite their semi-expert opponents stuffing up the auction. (The non-infraction of misbid.) Bunny captain: >>Having been through this I understand why there >>is so much moaning and complaining about these >>appeals processes. In the case above the apparent >>outcome to me as a novice is that we were dudded >>at least 3 times RJH: It is case like this which give me the "heat" to argue that clarity of language and philosophy in the Laws is *not* merely "something to be desired", *but* rather an imperative priority for the WBF LC in its final draft of the 2006 edition of The Fabulous Law Book. Kojak: >The WBFLC and other Laws Committees and Zones, have >the right AND DUTY to provide interpretations RJH: Of course, I must agree with Kojak on "the right". But I totally disagree with "AND DUTY". Beware of the leopard. The Laws should be written as a pellucid framework. Therefore, the 2006 Laws should *not* need subsequent interpretations, but merely need subsequent supplementary regulations promulgated by the local sponsoring organisations. Kojak: >or seek higher Zonal, or WBF explanation when they >find the need for it. RJH: Balderdash. Think locally, act globally. If a higher authority has given an ambiguous instruction, the lower authority make up its own mind on the appropriate resolution of the ambiguity. Indeed, that was the reason that Edgar Kaplan deliberately wrote some parts of the current Laws with ambiguous and gnomic wording. Kojak: >I review some threads, I find obstinacy, error, >stupidity, sophistry, and monumental egos blaring forth >nonsense. The Letter from James, chapter 2, verses 2-4: >>>Suppose a rich man wearing a gold ring and fine >>>clothes comes to your meeting, and a poor man in >>>ragged clothes also comes. If you show more respect >>>to the well-dressed man and say to him, "Have this >>>best seat here," but say to the poor man, "Stand over >>>there, or sit here on the floor by my feet," then you >>>are guilty of creating distinctions among yourselves >>>and of making judgements based on evil motives. RJH: In the context of blml discussions, Nigel Guthrie is metaphorically a poor man in ragged clothes. To extend the metaphor, the former Chief Director of the World Bridge Federation is a rich man wearing a gold ring. Preciousssss. Kojak: >I find precious little acceptance of answers when >explanations and interpretations are submitted by >proper authorities and through proper channels. RJH: Precioussss. Kojak: >But if we did that, then what would BLML be able to >offer? RJH: One vital role that blml has previously offered, is refining radium from pitchblende - a few good ideas for Grattan's notebook will soon be incorporated in the new edition of the Laws. Kojak: >However, this game of dissection, vilification, and >misinterpretation of the Law book is probably a good >outlet for those so inclined, -- AS LONG AS THEY >KEEP THEIR HANDS OFF OUR GAME. When insane, >outlandish (softer word than insane, no?), and >palpably wrong out-of-context blather is applied to >our players during a game by a TD, we are hurting all >of us. RJH: On this point I fully agree with Kojak. Best wishes Richard James Hills From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Fri Sep 3 12:05:24 2004 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:05:24 +1000 Subject: [blml] The Keith McNeil Library Message-ID: A complete listing of bridge books stored at the Keith McNeil Library at ABF headquarters is now available at: http://www.abf.com.au/about/librarylist.asp Best wishes Richard James Hills From zmzchyfexzyu@hotmail.com Sat Sep 4 01:23:48 2004 From: zmzchyfexzyu@hotmail.com (Toni Langston) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 20:23:48 -0400 Subject: [blml] re [20] Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020904080905070005090004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It was nice in 1810 Football I'll wait you

All your base are belong to us Taxes

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<20040904131913.F22CE497@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020108070901020504010001 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hotels in 1801 Bands Websites

Pregnancy in 1903

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department [Sun, 05 Sep 2004 02:05:18 -0500] Message-ID: <20040905061051.8C0F0E1@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050900020600050704050000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

in 1833 in 1992 in 1999 Pearl Harbor Never mund. ??? ??? Guns please was wonderful Technology So, if we.. at the moment will do It in 1819 Search Engines The Bible in 1841 Linux what's the matter nationality Freebies what a surprise! USA Metasearch Let me

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<413C815D.8020201@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Sven Pran" > Yes, either that or L45D if the Director finds that declarer really asked > for the King. L45D permits correction as long as neither side has played a > card to the next trick so under this law the correction is in order. Isn't that until _both_ sides have played to the next trick? From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Mon Sep 6 16:27:39 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:27:39 -0400 Subject: [blml] ANeCdote In-Reply-To: <200409011502.i81F2hEE027762@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409011502.i81F2hEE027762@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <413C81EB.4050208@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) > Some pairs games impose, by regulation, a small PP for all misboardings. > I don't have a problem with this approach as it tends only to be used when > habitual carelessness has become an issue. Isn't the ACBL penalty a full board, or is my memory faulty again? (This amount is far from "small.") From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Mon Sep 6 16:31:20 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:31:20 -0400 Subject: [blml] Equitable competition In-Reply-To: <200408121906.i7CJ6gP6013037@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200408121906.i7CJ6gP6013037@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <413C82C8.20308@cfa.harvard.edu> [catching up on some old messages today....] > From: "Nigel Guthrie" > Grattan informs us that actions are illegal unless > TFLB explicitly permits them. As Grattan responded, he is quoting a WBFLC minute, not his own opinion. Further, the minute does not say the above. There are _three_ categories, not two: legal, illegal, and extraneous. Actions not explicitly in one of the first two categories are in the third. From svenpran@online.no Mon Sep 6 16:57:46 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 17:57:46 +0200 Subject: [blml] Again at the local club In-Reply-To: <413C815D.8020201@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000801c4942a$40cbc590$6900a8c0@WINXP> > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-admin@rtflb.org [mailto:blml-admin@rtflb.org] On Behalf Of > Steve Willner > Sent: 6. september 2004 17:25 > To: blml@rtflb.org > Subject: Re: [blml] Again at the local club >=20 > > From: "Sven Pran" > > Yes, either that or L45D if the Director finds that declarer really > asked > > for the King. L45D permits correction as long as neither side has = played > a > > card to the next trick so under this law the correction is in order. >=20 > Isn't that until _both_ sides have played to the next trick? Probably yes, the law text is "before each side has played to the next trick".=20 In the finer art of interpreting the English language the question is whether this means "either side" or "both sides"; from the commentary to = the 1987 laws it is clear that the law intend it to mean "both sides" (but = only by one player on each side). Regards Sven From bridge@vwalther.de Mon Sep 6 17:04:31 2004 From: bridge@vwalther.de (volker walther) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:04:31 +0200 Subject: [blml] Pass out of turn - a very easy one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413C8A8F.2090204@vwalther.de> David Stevenson wrote: > > A player passes when his LHO has dealt. LHO does not accept it, so > the pass is cancelled and he has to pass when next it is his turn to call. > > LHO opens the Multi, and partner asks the TD whether your original > pass is authorised or unauthorised. > > OK, we all know the answer to that one, but would you like to justify > it in the Laws? > Just my to pence/cents LAW 73 - COMMUNICATION A. Proper Communication between Partners 1. How Effected Communication between partners during the auction and play shall be effected only by means of the calls and plays themselves. If I recieve any information from my partner, it's an act of communication. If the POOT has been cancelled the transmitted information becomes UI. Greetings, Volker -- http://www.vwalther.de From john@asimere.com Mon Sep 6 17:15:21 2004 From: john@asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 17:15:21 +0100 Subject: [blml] Again at the local club In-Reply-To: <413C815D.8020201@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409021431.i82EVlrJ015205@cfa.harvard.edu> <413C815D.8020201@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: In article <413C815D.8020201@cfa.harvard.edu>, Steve Willner writes >> From: "Sven Pran" >> Yes, either that or L45D if the Director finds that declarer really asked >> for the King. L45D permits correction as long as neither side has played a >> card to the next trick so under this law the correction is in order. > >Isn't that until _both_ sides have played to the next trick? yep. I explain that we can play one card of the next trick and *still* back everything up. The players find this makes as much sense as 25B > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@rtflb.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john@asimere.com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From john@asimere.com Mon Sep 6 17:16:49 2004 From: john@asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 17:16:49 +0100 Subject: [blml] Again at the local club In-Reply-To: <000801c4942a$40cbc590$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <413C815D.8020201@cfa.harvard.edu> <000801c4942a$40cbc590$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <30V6hUDx1IPBFwj2@asimere.com> In article <000801c4942a$40cbc590$6900a8c0@WINXP>, Sven Pran writes >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blml-admin@rtflb.org [mailto:blml-admin@rtflb.org] On Behalf Of >> Steve Willner >> Sent: 6. september 2004 17:25 >> To: blml@rtflb.org >> Subject: Re: [blml] Again at the local club >> >> > From: "Sven Pran" >> > Yes, either that or L45D if the Director finds that declarer really >> asked >> > for the King. L45D permits correction as long as neither side has played >> a >> > card to the next trick so under this law the correction is in order. >> >> Isn't that until _both_ sides have played to the next trick? > >Probably yes, the law text is "before each side has played to the next >trick". > >In the finer art of interpreting the English language the question is >whether this means "either side" or "both sides"; from the commentary to the >1987 laws it is clear that the law intend it to mean "both sides" (but only >by one player on each side). So if we really go for it pard can lead to the next trick and I can whip out a card for him to see? We still back up, so do I get a penalty card? > >Regards Sven > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@rtflb.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john@asimere.com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Mon Sep 6 17:38:38 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 12:38:38 -0400 Subject: [blml] Pass out of turn - a very easy one In-Reply-To: <200409061628.i86GSpae013184@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409061628.i86GSpae013184@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <413C928E.8020205@cfa.harvard.edu> >> LHO opens the Multi, and partner asks the TD whether your original >>pass is authorised or unauthorised. > From: volker walther > Just my to pence/cents > > LAW 73 - COMMUNICATION > A. Proper Communication between Partners > 1. How Effected ... > If I recieve any information from my partner, it's an act of communication. > If the POOT has been cancelled the transmitted information becomes UI. Sorry, but this argument won't do. You could have made exactly the same argument from 1987 to 1997, but the POOT was then AI (L16C). The relevant question, as David says, is how to read L16C, not other laws. From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Mon Sep 6 19:03:34 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:03:34 -0400 Subject: [blml] ANeCdote In-Reply-To: <413C81EB.4050208@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <119D01C1-002F-11D9-BFC7-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Monday, Sep 6, 2004, at 11:27 US/Eastern, Steve Willner wrote: > Isn't the ACBL penalty a full board, or is my memory faulty again? > (This amount is far from "small.") If there are ACBL regulations specifying specific penalties for *anything*, I'd like to know where to find them. From blml@blakjak.com Mon Sep 6 19:29:34 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:29:34 +0100 Subject: [blml] Pass out of turn - a very easy one In-Reply-To: <413C8A8F.2090204@vwalther.de> References: <413C8A8F.2090204@vwalther.de> Message-ID: volker walther wrote >David Stevenson wrote: > >> A player passes when his LHO has dealt. LHO does not accept it, >>so the pass is cancelled and he has to pass when next it is his turn >>to call. >> LHO opens the Multi, and partner asks the TD whether your original >>pass is authorised or unauthorised. >> OK, we all know the answer to that one, but would you like to >>justify it in the Laws? >> > > >Just my to pence/cents > >LAW 73 - COMMUNICATION >A. Proper Communication between Partners >1. How Effected >Communication between partners during the auction and play shall be >effected only by means of the calls and plays themselves. > >If I recieve any information from my partner, it's an act of communication. >If the POOT has been cancelled the transmitted information becomes UI. I am afraid a Pass is a call, whether out of turn or not. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Mon Sep 6 19:31:22 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:31:22 +0100 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <000301c482f3$70f90bd0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <001201c482ec$e196ddb0$c9eec418@D2GX7R11> <000301c482f3$70f90bd0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >Bill Bickford >............. >> Several years ago(1970???) I was involved (as a player) in a similar >> situation in an ACBL Sebcional Tournament. In a two section open pairs >> final, about round ten of thirteen, I discovered a board with two eights >> of >> diamonds. I called director and it was determined the other section had >> two >> sevens of diamonds. The director determined that this spot card had no >> impact on either bidding or play and determined that no adjustments should >> be made. I agree with the lack of impact, but have always been >> uncomfortable with his ruling. I would appreciate any comments. > >I assume the error was not discovered for either section until they had >actually started the auction on the erratic boards? (Otherwise you just >correct the board and get going). Errrr - what about the previous nine rounds? -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Mon Sep 6 19:36:18 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:36:18 +0100 Subject: [blml] Law 42: Dummy's rights limit In-Reply-To: References: <000101c48550$b8aed540$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Tim West-Meads wrote >Sven wrote: >> >> Declarer: "The two of spades" >> Dummy: "You are in your own hand" >> >> This remark from dummy is improper: It is not an attempt to prevent an >> irregularity (Law 42B2) > >I have watched a fair amount of bridge Sven and in my experience this is >almost always an *attempt* to prevent an irregularity. Sure it is an >attempt doomed to failure due to being too late to do any good but in the >eyes of the dummy it is a genuine attempt. Since it can never work to >declaring side's advantage and only about 3% of players know the rule in >detail I think describing it as "improper" is something of an overbid. Surely improper is accurate? I think improper has no pejorative meaning. When you do something wrong it is improper even if your motives are pure and your ignorance is total. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Mon Sep 6 19:38:30 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:38:30 +0100 Subject: [blml] Law 42: Dummy's rights limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wrote >Richard Hills: > >Dummy _should_ keep mum shut? I disagree. > >Rather, I argue that *if* a Law is a dead letter Law, >with only blmlers bothering to obey that dead letter >Law, *then* that dead letter Law _should_ be repealed >in 2006. So? That does not mean people should ignore it in 2004. Anyway, you are exaggerating a teensy weensy bit: there are probably a few, let's say a dozen, no wait, let's say a hundred, ok, maybe a thousand, even tens of thousands, who obey every Law. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Mon Sep 6 19:45:32 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:45:32 +0100 Subject: [blml] It happened at the local club. In-Reply-To: <4131489C.2030503@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200408272101.i7RL1lRD013714@cfa.harvard.edu> <4131489C.2030503@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <89Owj8VMBLPBFwSN@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Steve Willner wrote >> From: "Nancy Dressing" >> The bidding was: >> 1NT Pass 2S* Pass >> 4S Pass ? >> * announced as a transfer and immediately corrected saying "To >>play" > >Just a quick comment. If this was in the ACBL, as I infer from the use >of announcements, the 2S bid should have been alerted in the usual >manner, not announced. Only diamond and heart bids are announced as >"transfer." Nancy probably knows this, and it doesn't matter to the >ruling here but might in some different case. > >Are there any other jurisdictions that use announcements? South Africa - but only for opening 2-bids. The EBU is discussing the possibility. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Mon Sep 6 19:48:46 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:48:46 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <000301c48fff$93027220$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000b01c48ffc$0bffcaa0$a5c5883e@pentium41600> <000301c48fff$93027220$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> Larry Bennett >> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b >> after four passes? >> >> Larry > >He sure can (until we get rid of that law, hopefully in 2006) I have my doubts about this. The auction period has ended. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Mon Sep 6 19:49:34 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:49:34 +0100 Subject: [blml] Equitable competition References: <200408121906.i7CJ6gP6013037@cfa.harvard.edu> <413C82C8.20308@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <001c01c49442$410deac0$5f9468d5@jeushtlj> [Steve Willner] > [catching up on some old messages today....] > As Grattan responded, he is quoting a > WBFLC minute, not his own opinion. > Further, the minute does not say the > above. There are _three_ categories, > not two: legal, illegal, and extraneous. > Actions not explicitly in one of the > first two categories are in the third. [Nigel] Thank you for your answer, Steve. Grattan will correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall a previous thread about "whether it's OK to ask hypothetical questions about future developments in opponents' auction?". If I remember rightly, Grattan replied that if the law book does not explicitly permit it then it is illegal. Later, he explained his reasoning by quoting another minute which said something like: "a player is likely to be ruled against if his action, not explicitly permitted, may give UI." (a rough paraphrase from memory). You may ask "What relevance has this to a lead before the last trick has been quitted?". Well, it is blatant UI to allow partner to see cards from more than one trick simultaneously. It is unnecessary to rely wholly on Grattan's minute as there are at least two other laws which confirm that exposure of cards belonging to more than one trick is illegal (for example: the one with the note about memory aids; and another one that allows the inspection of tricks that you have quitted only with the TD's permission). Kojak and others may be right that what the law book says is irrelevant if most TDs accede to Kojak's "interpretation" of the law-maker's "real intentions". I confess I am more interested in what the law book will say in the future than what it now says. I hope the new law-book will outlaw such leads clearly and simply. I am delighted that Richard Hills appears to agree that the WBFLC should try to ensure, as far as possible, that the new law book says what it intends; and means what it says. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03-Sep-04 From svenpran@online.no Mon Sep 6 22:45:55 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:45:55 +0200 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c4945a$e43e4470$6900a8c0@WINXP> > David Stevenson > Sven Pran wrote > >Bill Bickford > >............. > >> Several years ago(1970???) I was involved (as a player) in a = similar > >> situation in an ACBL Sebcional Tournament. In a two section open = pairs > >> final, about round ten of thirteen, I discovered a board with two > eights > >> of > >> diamonds. I called director and it was determined the other = section > had > >> two > >> sevens of diamonds. The director determined that this spot card = had no > >> impact on either bidding or play and determined that no adjustments > should > >> be made. I agree with the lack of impact, but have always been > >> uncomfortable with his ruling. I would appreciate any comments. > > > >I assume the error was not discovered for either section until they = had > >actually started the auction on the erratic boards? (Otherwise you = just > >correct the board and get going). >=20 > Errrr - what about the previous nine rounds? In my opinion: If it can be shown beyond doubt that the boards did not conform to Law 1 then all results obtained for the fouled boards must also be cancelled.=20 Sven From svenpran@online.no Mon Sep 6 23:01:11 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:01:11 +0200 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c4945d$055dcfc0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > David Stevenson > Sven Pran wrote > >> Larry Bennett > >> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b > >> after four passes? > >> > >> Larry > > > >He sure can (until we get rid of that law, hopefully in 2006) >=20 > I have my doubts about this. The auction period has ended. So what about an inadvertent fourth (or even third) pass?=20 With a spoken auction: "pass" - "pass" - "pass" - "pass, no sorry I mean = one spades".=20 Do you deny a law 25A correction? Do you say to this player: "Sorry, you said pass first and that closed = the auction so you cannot substitute any bid for that pass even though we = all know that your pass was clearly inadvertent"?=20 Sven From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 02:07:04 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 02:07:04 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <000501c4945d$055dcfc0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000501c4945d$055dcfc0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> David Stevenson >> Sven Pran wrote >> >> Larry Bennett >> >> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b >> >> after four passes? >> >> >> >> Larry >> > >> >He sure can (until we get rid of that law, hopefully in 2006) >> >> I have my doubts about this. The auction period has ended. > >So what about an inadvertent fourth (or even third) pass? > >With a spoken auction: "pass" - "pass" - "pass" - "pass, no sorry I mean one >spades". > >Do you deny a law 25A correction? > >Do you say to this player: "Sorry, you said pass first and that closed the >auction so you cannot substitute any bid for that pass even though we all >know that your pass was clearly inadvertent"? No, I don't. The difference between L25A and L25B is basic: L25A is correcting an error: you made a call, and mispulled/misspoke/miswrote it. To allow it to be corrected is fine: the auction period did not really end. If the intended auction was P P P 1H then that is not the end of the auction period. But L25B legalises a change in a call that has been made - but once the final pass has been made the auction period ends. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From mfrench1@san.rr.com Tue Sep 7 02:47:27 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin French) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:47:27 -0700 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b References: <000501c4945d$055dcfc0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <001501c4947c$a255bd00$6401a8c0@san.rr.com> David Stevenson wrote: > > But L25B legalises a change in a call that has been made - but once > the final pass has been made the auction period ends. > Not if the pass is canceled. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, California From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Tue Sep 7 03:16:47 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:16:47 -0400 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <000401c4945a$e43e4470$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: On Monday, Sep 6, 2004, at 17:45 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > In my opinion: > If it can be shown beyond doubt that the boards did not conform to Law > 1 > then all results obtained for the fouled boards must also be cancelled. "Beyond doubt" is even stronger than "beyond a reasonable doubt", which is in turn stronger than "preponderance of the evidence". I think it's way too strong for this. I find it extremely unlikely that the boards conformed to Law 1 during the first nine rounds of this tournament, since I strongly suspect that the error occurred during pre-duplication of the boards (by hand) before the first round started. I can't show beyond doubt that it must be so, but I don't believe the Law requires me to do so. Can you show me where it does? From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 03:31:42 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 03:31:42 +0100 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <001501c4947c$a255bd00$6401a8c0@san.rr.com> References: <000501c4945d$055dcfc0$6900a8c0@WINXP> <001501c4947c$a255bd00$6401a8c0@san.rr.com> Message-ID: Marvin French wrote >David Stevenson wrote: >> >> But L25B legalises a change in a call that has been made - but once >> the final pass has been made the auction period ends. >> >Not if the pass is canceled. Of course it is re-opened when there is a change based on misinformation. But i do not believe that is relevant. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From hermandw@hdw.be Tue Sep 7 08:16:41 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 09:16:41 +0200 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: References: <000501c4945d$055dcfc0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <413D6059.8010105@hdw.be> Sorry David, but you are wrong. David Stevenson wrote: > > The difference between L25A and L25B is basic: L25A is correcting an > error: you made a call, and mispulled/misspoke/miswrote it. To allow it > to be corrected is fine: the auction period did not really end. If the > intended auction was P P P 1H then that is not the end of the auction > period. > > But L25B legalises a change in a call that has been made - but once > the final pass has been made the auction period ends. > Both L25A and L25B use the words "substitute", "call" and "call". There is no difference between them. If you allow a L25A change of call for the final pass, then you should also allow a L25B one. If you dissallow one, you should dissallow both. Personally, I'd allow them. Actually, one of the most famous examples for L25B is with a final pass: ... 4NT X pass (=some nr of aces) pass ??? shall I bid 5Sp or 6Sp? think think think, pass "ooops". A clear L25B to me. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From vxce@hotmail.com Tue Sep 7 08:20:20 2004 From: vxce@hotmail.com (vxce@hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:20:20 +0800 Subject: [blml] (*SPAM*) Email marketing Message-ID:

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From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 7 10:27:25 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:27:25 +0200 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c494bc$e36005e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Ed Reppert ........... > On Monday, Sep 6, 2004, at 17:45 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: >=20 > > In my opinion: > > If it can be shown beyond doubt that the boards did not conform to = Law > > 1 > > then all results obtained for the fouled boards must also be = cancelled. >=20 > "Beyond doubt" is even stronger than "beyond a reasonable doubt", = which > is in turn stronger than "preponderance of the evidence". I think it's > way too strong for this. >=20 > I find it extremely unlikely that the boards conformed to Law 1 during > the first nine rounds of this tournament, since I strongly suspect = that > the error occurred during pre-duplication of the boards (by hand) > before the first round started. > I can't show beyond doubt that it must be so, but I don't believe the > Law requires me to do so. Can you show me where it does? During pre-duplication is of course one possibility. By players or other people who for some unknown reason have looked at both boards at some = time and accidentally swapped two cards is another. Remember that we are talking about a card from one board being swapped = with a different card from the other. This is an extremely rare occurrence = during pre-duplication (whether by hand or machine), but it is not so rare when people violate Law 7C. So unless you have full control of all boards during all the time (and = who has?) you cannot really rule one reason above the other. Then when the players have not noticed any error with the pack you = should not afterwards intervene and say something like "you must have played = with an incorrect pack so your result must be cancelled" without real = evidence. Hence: "Beyond doubt" Regards Sven From Frances.Hinden@Shell.com Fri Sep 3 15:54:07 2004 From: Frances.Hinden@Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:54:07 +0100 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101816E36@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C491C5.DD25098B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You hold 13 miscellaneous low cards and hear the following auction, = starting on your right 1S P 2C P 3D(1) P 4NT(2) P 6D(3) P 7D P(4) P P (1) strong, spades and diamonds (2) blackwood in diamonds (3) even number of keycards and a void (4) very, very slow What suit does the UI of partner's very slow pass suggest leading? Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the = contract, what chance have you of keeping your good score? If you are the AC, would the opening leader's argument for what suit was = suggested by the UI convince you to let the score stand if he led a = different one, even if you think the logic is wrong? [At the table the contract made, so there never was a ruling. The = opening leader was confident about which suit his partner wanted and led = a different one. He was right, but I think the pause means something = else and might have beaten it by accident!] Frances Hinden Strategic Planning Shell International Ltd. Shell Centre, London, SE1 7NA, UK Tel: +44 (0) 20 7934 2529 Fax: 6982 Mobile: +44 (0) 7899 065392 Email: Frances.Hinden@ shell.com=20 Internet:http://www.shell.com/ This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information which = should not be used, copied or disclosed without permission. If you are = not an intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C491C5.DD25098B Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tie yourself in knots

You hold 13 miscellaneous low cards and hear = the following auction, starting on your right

1S      = P     2C       = P
3D(1) P  4NT(2)  P
6D(3) P   = 7D       P(4)
P       = P

(1)  strong, spades and diamonds
(2)  blackwood in diamonds
(3)  even number of keycards and a = void
(4)  very, very slow

What suit does the UI of partner's very slow = pass suggest leading?
Or to put it another way, if you lead a = non-trump and it beats the contract, what chance have you of keeping = your good score?

If you are the AC, would the opening leader's = argument for what suit was suggested by the UI convince you to let the = score stand if he led a different one, even if you think the logic is = wrong?

[At the table the contract made, so there = never was a ruling.  The opening leader was confident about which = suit his partner wanted and led a different one.  He was right, but = I think the pause means something else and might have beaten it by = accident!]


Frances Hinden
Strategic Planning
Shell International Ltd.
Shell Centre, London, SE1 7NA, UK

Tel: +44 (0) 20 7934 2529 Fax: 6982 Mobile: +44 (0) 7899 065392
Email: Frances.Hinden@ shell.com
Internet:http://www.shell.com/

This email may contain confidential and/or = privileged information which should not be used, copied or disclosed = without permission. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact = the sender immediately.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C491C5.DD25098B-- From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 7 10:46:09 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:46:09 +0200 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c494bf$81063ab0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > David Stevenson > Sent: 7. september 2004 03:07 > To: blml@rtflb.org > Subject: Re: [blml] to be or not 2b >=20 > Sven Pran wrote > >> David Stevenson > >> Sven Pran wrote > >> >> Larry Bennett > >> >> Is it considered that 4th in hand can invoke L25b > >> >> after four passes? > >> >> > >> >> Larry > >> > > >> >He sure can (until we get rid of that law, hopefully in 2006) > >> > >> I have my doubts about this. The auction period has ended. > > > >So what about an inadvertent fourth (or even third) pass? > > > >With a spoken auction: "pass" - "pass" - "pass" - "pass, no sorry I = mean > one > >spades". > > > >Do you deny a law 25A correction? > > > >Do you say to this player: "Sorry, you said pass first and that = closed > the > >auction so you cannot substitute any bid for that pass even though we = all > >know that your pass was clearly inadvertent"? >=20 > No, I don't. >=20 > The difference between L25A and L25B is basic: L25A is correcting an > error: you made a call, and mispulled/misspoke/miswrote it. To allow = it > to be corrected is fine: the auction period did not really end. If = the > intended auction was P P P 1H then that is not the end of the auction > period. >=20 > But L25B legalises a change in a call that has been made - but once > the final pass has been made the auction period ends. You do surprise me David? There is no formal difference between Laws 25A and 25B; they both allow = the substitution of a call on certain conditions (which of course are = different for the two laws).=20 But the main question has arisen from the fact that we have = unconditional time limits associated with each of these laws: Until partner has made a call for L25A, until LHO has made a call for L25B. If a player makes a call that otherwise qualifies to be substituted = under Law 25A he has a grace period until partner subsequently calls to = discover his mistake and change his own call. Exactly when (in your opinion) does this period expire when the = inadvertent call was a pass and partner will normally not have another turn to call? (And the same question is of course equally relevant for L25B related to LHO)=20 Regards Sven From cibor@poczta.fm Tue Sep 7 10:52:29 2004 From: cibor@poczta.fm (Konrad Ciborowski) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:52:29 +0200 Subject: [blml] Systems policy Message-ID: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> Hi gang, I need a translation from English to plain English of a sentence from WBF/EBL systems policy which is: +---------------- Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or three level that may by agreement be made with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. +---------------- What does that mean? I can imagine (perhaps) what it is supposed to mean but I would prefer some literal translation. On the surface it sounds that this sentence bans the 2S opener showing weak 5+-5+ two-suiter with spades & minor because this opening can be made with three cards or fewer in one of the suits, namely - hearts. Is this intended? Is this what this sentece really means? If yes - why would one want to ban such an opening? If not - what *is* the meaning of this wonderful piece of legislation? Konrad Ciborowski Krak=F3w, Poland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Startuj z INTERIA.PL!!! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1830 From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 7 11:03:25 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:03:25 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101816E36@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: <000601c494c1$eab69610$6900a8c0@WINXP> Hinden, Frances SI-PXS You hold 13 miscellaneous low cards and hear the following auction, = starting on your right=20 1S=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 P=A0=A0=A0=A0 2C=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 P=20 3D(1) P=A0 4NT(2)=A0 P=20 6D(3) P=A0=A0 7D=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 P(4)=20 P=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 P=20 (1)=A0 strong, spades and diamonds=20 (2)=A0 blackwood in diamonds=20 (3)=A0 even number of keycards and a void=20 (4)=A0 very, very slow=20 What suit does the UI of partner's very slow pass suggest leading?=20 Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the = contract, what chance have you of keeping your good score? If you are the AC, would the opening leader's argument for what suit was suggested by the UI convince you to let the score stand if he led a different one, even if you think the logic is wrong? [At the table the contract made, so there never was a ruling.=A0 The = opening leader was confident about which suit his partner wanted and led a = different one.=A0 He was right, but I think the pause means something else and = might have beaten it by accident!] I would have taken a double as Lightner so I assume his hesitation to be from a "conflict" that he needs a lead discouraged by a Lightner double. Could it be that from this auction a heart lead appears most natural and that a Lightner double would discourage that?=20 Unless the opening leader has a very "safe" lead I'm afraid that any successful lead could be ruled as possibly suggested by the hesitation. (But why on earth did he do such a silly thing as creating this = situation?) Regards Sven From henk@ripe.net Tue Sep 7 11:10:07 2004 From: henk@ripe.net (Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:10:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [blml] Systems policy In-Reply-To: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> References: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Konrad Ciborowski wrote: > > Hi gang, > > I need a translation from English to plain English of > a sentence from WBF/EBL systems policy which is: > > > +---------------- > Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or three level that may by > agreement be made with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. > +---------------- > > What does that mean? I can imagine (perhaps) what it is > supposed to mean but I would prefer some literal translation. > On the surface it sounds that this sentence bans the 2S opener > showing weak 5+-5+ two-suiter with spades & minor because this > opening can be made with three cards or fewer in one > of the suits, namely - hearts. > > Is this intended? Is this what this sentece really means? "one of the suits" refers to the suits shown or implied by the opening bid, 55 spades is OK as it shows 5 spades and 5 cards in the minor. > If yes - why would one want to ban such an opening? I'd hardly call a 5-3-(32) a "two suiter", so why call it a 2 suiter. (And in fact, opening it is not banned, as calling a 5-332 a weak 2 is legal). Henk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Process and Procedure are the last hiding place of people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly. (David Brent). From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 7 11:10:56 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:10:56 +0200 Subject: [blml] Systems policy In-Reply-To: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> Message-ID: <000701c494c2$f7aaaae0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Konrad Ciborowski > Hi gang, >=20 > I need a translation from English to plain English of > a sentence from WBF/EBL systems policy which is: >=20 >=20 > +---------------- > Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or three level that may by > agreement be made with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. > +---------------- >=20 > What does that mean? I can imagine (perhaps) what it is > supposed to mean but I would prefer some literal translation. > On the surface it sounds that this sentence bans the 2S opener > showing weak 5+-5+ two-suiter with spades & minor because this > opening can be made with three cards or fewer in one > of the suits, namely - hearts. >=20 > Is this intended? Is this what this sentece really means? > If yes - why would one want to ban such an opening? > If not - what *is* the meaning of this wonderful piece of legislation? >=20 >=20 > Konrad Ciborowski > Krak=F3w, Poland I would translate this to cover any distribution where one of the two = suits have at least 5 cards and the longest of the other three suits has = maximally 3 cards, for instance the distribution 6-3-2-2 The regulation would in case be clearer spelled: "two-suited ...... in = one of the two suits indicated". But others must tell whether I am guessing correct. Regards Sven From Martin.Sinot@Micronas.com Tue Sep 7 11:24:42 2004 From: Martin.Sinot@Micronas.com (Sinot Martin) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:24:42 +0200 Subject: [blml] Systems policy Message-ID: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648A@rama.micronas.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-admin@rtflb.org [mailto:blml-admin@rtflb.org]On=20 > Behalf Of Konrad Ciborowski > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 11:52 > To: blml@rtflb.org > Subject: [blml] Systems policy >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi gang, >=20 > I need a translation from English to plain English of > a sentence from WBF/EBL systems policy which is: >=20 >=20 > +---------------- > Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or three level that may by > agreement be made with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. > +---------------- >=20 > What does that mean? I can imagine (perhaps) what it is > supposed to mean but I would prefer some literal translation. > On the surface it sounds that this sentence bans the 2S opener > showing weak 5+-5+ two-suiter with spades & minor because this > opening can be made with three cards or fewer in one > of the suits, namely - hearts. >=20 > Is this intended? Is this what this sentece really means? > If yes - why would one want to ban such an opening? > If not - what *is* the meaning of this wonderful piece of legislation? >=20 >=20 > Konrad Ciborowski > Krak=F3w, Poland 'The suits' refers to the suits indicated in the bid. Your 2S indicating 5 spades and 5 minor is legal, because the suits mentioned, spades and a minor, are both at least 4-card. 'The suits' referring to any suit would hardly be useful, since that = would mean that ALL weak two-suiters are banned. There is always at least one suit shorter than four cards (otherwise, the hand would hold 16 cards :) ) --=20 Martin Sinot From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 12:09:09 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:09:09 +0100 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <000201c494bc$e36005e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000201c494bc$e36005e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <8zIQAVkVbZPBFwyD@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Sven Pran wrote >Ed Reppert >........... >> On Monday, Sep 6, 2004, at 17:45 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: >> >> > In my opinion: >> > If it can be shown beyond doubt that the boards did not conform to Law >> > 1 >> > then all results obtained for the fouled boards must also be cancelled. >> >> "Beyond doubt" is even stronger than "beyond a reasonable doubt", which >> is in turn stronger than "preponderance of the evidence". I think it's >> way too strong for this. >> >> I find it extremely unlikely that the boards conformed to Law 1 during >> the first nine rounds of this tournament, since I strongly suspect that >> the error occurred during pre-duplication of the boards (by hand) >> before the first round started. >> I can't show beyond doubt that it must be so, but I don't believe the >> Law requires me to do so. Can you show me where it does? > >During pre-duplication is of course one possibility. By players or other >people who for some unknown reason have looked at both boards at some time >and accidentally swapped two cards is another. > >Remember that we are talking about a card from one board being swapped with >a different card from the other. This is an extremely rare occurrence during >pre-duplication (whether by hand or machine), but it is not so rare when >people violate Law 7C. Normally I would agree with you, but remember these boards were *in different sections*. It really is not credible that a player mixed cards from boards in different sections. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 12:12:53 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:12:53 +0100 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000601c494c1$eab69610$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101816E36@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> <000601c494c1$eab69610$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >Hinden, Frances SI-PXS >You hold 13 miscellaneous low cards and hear the following auction, starting >on your right >1S      P     2C       P >3D(1) P  4NT(2)  P >6D(3) P   7D       P(4) >P       P >(1)  strong, spades and diamonds >(2)  blackwood in diamonds >(3)  even number of keycards and a void >(4)  very, very slow >What suit does the UI of partner's very slow pass suggest leading? >Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the contract, >what chance have you of keeping your good score? >If you are the AC, would the opening leader's argument for what suit was >suggested by the UI convince you to let the score stand if he led a >different one, even if you think the logic is wrong? >[At the table the contract made, so there never was a ruling.  The opening >leader was confident about which suit his partner wanted and led a different >one.  He was right, but I think the pause means something else and might >have beaten it by accident!] > >I would have taken a double as Lightner so I assume his hesitation to be >from a "conflict" that he needs a lead discouraged by a Lightner double. > >Could it be that from this auction a heart lead appears most natural and >that a Lightner double would discourage that? > >Unless the opening leader has a very "safe" lead I'm afraid that any >successful lead could be ruled as possibly suggested by the hesitation. This old chestnut has been raised so many times ... The way the Law is written this ruling can *never* be acceptable. UI rulings are based on one action being suggested over another, so you cannot have no successful acceptable alternative. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 12:14:37 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:14:37 +0100 Subject: [blml] Systems policy In-Reply-To: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> References: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> Message-ID: Konrad Ciborowski wrote > >Hi gang, > > I need a translation from English to plain English of >a sentence from WBF/EBL systems policy which is: > > >+---------------- >Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or three level that may by >agreement be made with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. >+---------------- > >What does that mean? I can imagine (perhaps) what it is >supposed to mean but I would prefer some literal translation. >On the surface it sounds that this sentence bans the 2S opener >showing weak 5+-5+ two-suiter with spades & minor because this >opening can be made with three cards or fewer in one >of the suits, namely - hearts. > >Is this intended? Is this what this sentece really means? >If yes - why would one want to ban such an opening? >If not - what *is* the meaning of this wonderful piece of legislation? The suits clearly refers to one of the suits shown. So if you open 2S to show 5+ spades and 3+ hearts it is illegal, if it shows 5+ spades and 4+ hearts it is legal. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 12:16:43 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:16:43 +0100 Subject: [blml] Systems policy In-Reply-To: References: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> Message-ID: Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC) wrote >On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Konrad Ciborowski wrote: > >> >> Hi gang, >> >> I need a translation from English to plain English of >> a sentence from WBF/EBL systems policy which is: >> >> >> +---------------- >> Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or three level that may by >> agreement be made with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. >> +---------------- >> >> What does that mean? I can imagine (perhaps) what it is >> supposed to mean but I would prefer some literal translation. >> On the surface it sounds that this sentence bans the 2S opener >> showing weak 5+-5+ two-suiter with spades & minor because this >> opening can be made with three cards or fewer in one >> of the suits, namely - hearts. >> >> Is this intended? Is this what this sentece really means? > >"one of the suits" refers to the suits shown or implied by the opening >bid, 55 spades is OK as it shows 5 spades and 5 cards in the minor. > >> If yes - why would one want to ban such an opening? > >I'd hardly call a 5-3-(32) a "two suiter", so why call it a 2 suiter. (And >in fact, opening it is not banned, as calling a 5-332 a weak 2 is legal). Hang on - you are looking at it backwards. We are not talking of someone who agrees that 2S shows 5 spades and 3 hearts, we are talking of someone who plays 2S as 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. So to say it is not banned because it might be 53 32 is wrong since it could also be 65 11. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 7 12:22:07 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:22:07 +0200 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <8zIQAVkVbZPBFwyD@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000801c494cc$e90318b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > David Stevenson > Sven Pran wrote > >Ed Reppert > >........... > >> On Monday, Sep 6, 2004, at 17:45 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > >> > >> > In my opinion: > >> > If it can be shown beyond doubt that the boards did not conform = to > Law > >> > 1 > >> > then all results obtained for the fouled boards must also be > cancelled. > >> > >> "Beyond doubt" is even stronger than "beyond a reasonable doubt", = which > >> is in turn stronger than "preponderance of the evidence". I think = it's > >> way too strong for this. > >> > >> I find it extremely unlikely that the boards conformed to Law 1 = during > >> the first nine rounds of this tournament, since I strongly suspect = that > >> the error occurred during pre-duplication of the boards (by hand) > >> before the first round started. > >> I can't show beyond doubt that it must be so, but I don't believe = the > >> Law requires me to do so. Can you show me where it does? > > > >During pre-duplication is of course one possibility. By players or = other > >people who for some unknown reason have looked at both boards at some > time > >and accidentally swapped two cards is another. > > > >Remember that we are talking about a card from one board being = swapped > with > >a different card from the other. This is an extremely rare occurrence > during > >pre-duplication (whether by hand or machine), but it is not so rare = when > >people violate Law 7C. >=20 > Normally I would agree with you, but remember these boards were *in > different sections*. It really is not credible that a player mixed > cards from boards in different sections. Some difference indeed. So the two boards in question could never be found in any same room = during the event? That is sufficient evidence to me! Regards Sven From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 7 12:34:47 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:34:47 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c494ce$ae31a740$6900a8c0@WINXP> > David Stevenson ............ > >Unless the opening leader has a very "safe" lead I'm afraid that any > >successful lead could be ruled as possibly suggested by the hesitation. > > This old chestnut has been raised so many times ... > > The way the Law is written this ruling can *never* be acceptable. UI > rulings are based on one action being suggested over another, so you > cannot have no successful acceptable alternative. Not to reopen any old discussion: Ignoring plain irrational actions I can imagine many situations where ANY action "could have been suggested" so what you say is that when more than one alternative action "could have been suggested" then the player who receives UI is free to select whatever action he likes unless there exists at least one alternative action which definitely "could not have been suggested" by the UI? Regards Sven From henk@ripe.net Tue Sep 7 12:35:47 2004 From: henk@ripe.net (Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:35:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [blml] Systems policy In-Reply-To: References: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, David Stevenson wrote: > Hang on - you are looking at it backwards. We are not talking of > someone who agrees that 2S shows 5 spades and 3 hearts, we are talking > of someone who plays 2S as 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. In NL, I can define a weak 2 as "5+ in the major bid, 0-2 cards in the other major". This is the same as saying "5+ spades and 3+ in a minor" and includes 5233. I can even define my weak two as "5+ spades, 3+ hearts". What I cannot do though, is to call this hand a 2-suiter. What this rule effectively says is "if you call it a two-suiter, you have to have length in 2 suits". Length is defined as 4+ cards, so 53-32 is not a two-suiter. Henk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Process and Procedure are the last hiding place of people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly. (David Brent). From hermandw@hdw.be Tue Sep 7 12:36:07 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:36:07 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101816E36@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101816E36@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: <413D9D27.2020707@hdw.be> Well, this problem has one more facet than probably expected: Hinden, Frances SI-PXS wrote: > You hold 13 miscellaneous low cards and hear the following auction, > starting on your right > > 1S P 2C P > 3D(1) P 4NT(2) P > 6D(3) P 7D P(4) > P P > > (1) strong, spades and diamonds > (2) blackwood in diamonds > (3) even number of keycards and a void > (4) very, very slow > I am assuming that we all agree that partner was contemplating doubling. I am also assuming that such a double would indicate a particular suit to be led. I'm assuming this is spades, but I could be wrong there, in which case please substitute spades by some other suit in the reasning below. But what does the hesitation mean? It can be three things: a- partner is not certain that leading spades is enough to beat the contract. He fears the contract would be made, even with the best (= spades) lead. b- partner is not certain that spades is the correct lead. A different lead might be better. c- partner is almost certain the contract will go down, and he wants the extra from the double. However, with a spade lead the contract might just make. In a-, the spade lead is "suggested", in b- and c- the non-spade lead is "suggested". I'd say that no action is "demonstrably suggested" by the UI. > What suit does the UI of partner's very slow pass suggest leading? > Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the > contract, what chance have you of keeping your good score? > > If you are the AC, would the opening leader's argument for what suit was > suggested by the UI convince you to let the score stand if he led a > different one, even if you think the logic is wrong? > > [At the table the contract made, so there never was a ruling. The > opening leader was confident about which suit his partner wanted and led > a different one. He was right, but I think the pause means something > else and might have beaten it by accident!] > > > Frances Hinden > Strategic Planning > Shell International Ltd. > Shell Centre, London, SE1 7NA, UK > > Tel: +44 (0) 20 7934 2529 Fax: 6982 Mobile: +44 (0) 7899 065392 > Email: Frances.Hinden@ shell.com > Internet:http://www.shell.com/ > > This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information which > should not be used, copied or disclosed without permission. If you are > not an intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately. > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From twm@cix.co.uk Tue Sep 7 12:38:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Law 42: Dummy's rights limit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David wrote: > >I have watched a fair amount of bridge Sven and in my experience this > >is almost always an *attempt* to prevent an irregularity. Sure it is > >an attempt doomed to failure due to being too late to do any good but > >in the eyes of the dummy it is a genuine attempt. Since it can never > >work to declaring side's advantage and only about 3% of players know > >the rule in > >detail I think describing it as "improper" is something of an overbid. > > Surely improper is accurate? I think improper has no pejorative > meaning. Liverpool and the rest of the English-speaking world, two nations divided by a common language? Of course improper has pejorative connotations. > When you do something wrong it is improper even if your motives are pure > and your ignorance is total. Perhaps. But I do not believe these players are doing anything "wrong". L42b says "He may try to prevent any irregularity by declarer." I happen to believe that in 90+% of cases where dummy points out the lead from the wrong hand that is exactly what they are *trying* to do. The law does not require that the attempt have a chance of success. Do you consider it an "irregularity" for declarer to gain a trick he would not otherwise make by leading from the wrong hand against poor opponents? It feels "wrong" to me and I would try to prevent it by telling partner he has led from the wrong hand. You can call my action improper if you wish but I remain comfortable with it. Tim From twm@cix.co.uk Tue Sep 7 12:38:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Systems policy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hank wrote: > > +---------------- > > Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or three level that may by > > agreement be made with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. > I'd hardly call a 5-3-(32) a "two suiter", so why call it a 2 suiter. > (And in fact, opening it is not banned, as calling a 5-332 a weak 2 is > legal). One may want to play 2S as a 2 suiter with S and a minor, often (54) but occasionally 55/44/(53)/(43) - such would be disallowed. One could, apparently, play 2S as natural showing 3-5 spades. This would cover all the same hands but include a few additional hands with (54)22 distribution. Tim From david.barton@boltblue.com Tue Sep 7 12:44:02 2004 From: david.barton@boltblue.com (David Barton) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:44:02 +0100 Subject: [blml] L45D - Squared References: <413C8A8F.2090204@vwalther.de> Message-ID: <003101c494cf$fe69bc60$0307a8c0@PlusNet> West is Declarer in a 4S contract. North leads a Heart in which dummy holds A7. Declarer nominates (non too clearly) the A, but dummy places the 7 in the played position. South "wins" with the K, Declarer contributing a small Heart. South leads a second Heart, North (out of rotation) ruffs this and Dummy (for a second time) plays a card not nominated by Declarer by playing the bare Ace. Declarer now "wakes up" insisting that it was his, not South's lead to T2. Your ruling please. Observations:- It is clear that L45D allows for the AH to be withdrawn, but does this mean that this play "never happened". Are we now back to a position in which the declaring side has not played to T2, hence allowing T1 to be corrected. DWS expressed the view that:- " I am afraid a Pass is a call, whether out of turn or not" This appears to suggest that a call "exists" even if (a) it is illegal and (b) it is subsequently withdrawn Does this have any parallels with this case? Finally if you allow T1 to be corrected which of the withdrawn actions, South's KH to T1 and North's ruff to T2, are AI and to which side? (both sides appear to be "offending" at T2). ********************************** David.Barton@BoltBlue.com ********************************** -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.7.7 - Release Date: 03/09/2004 From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Tue Sep 7 17:34:41 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:34:41 +0100 Subject: [blml] Systems policy References: <000701c494c2$f7aaaae0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <000f01c494f8$9406f260$d69468d5@jeushtlj> [Konrad Ciborowski] > I need a translation from English > to plain English of a sentence from [WBF/EBL systems policy] > Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two > or three level that may by agreement > be made with three cards or fewer in > one of the suits. [Konrad Ciborowski] > What does that mean? I can imagine > (perhaps) what it is supposed to mean > but I would prefer some literal > translation. On the surface it sounds > that this sentence bans the 2S opener > showing weak 5+-5+ two-suiter with > spades & minor because this opening > can be made with three cards or fewer > in one of the suits, namely - hearts. [Nigel] Although it's possible to take Konrad's suggested meaning, Konrad would readily admit that a more idiomatic interpretation is to read "two suits" for "suits", thus "a weak 2-level or 3-level bid that shows two suits that allows fewer than four cards in either of those two suits by agreement." --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03-Sep-04 From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 17:52:06 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:52:06 +0100 Subject: [blml] Law 42: Dummy's rights limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1GQCNvs2cePBFwgS@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Tim West-Meads wrote >David wrote: > >> >I have watched a fair amount of bridge Sven and in my experience this >> >is almost always an *attempt* to prevent an irregularity. Sure it is >> >an attempt doomed to failure due to being too late to do any good but >> >in the eyes of the dummy it is a genuine attempt. Since it can never >> >work to declaring side's advantage and only about 3% of players know >> >the rule in >> >detail I think describing it as "improper" is something of an overbid. >> >> Surely improper is accurate? I think improper has no pejorative >> meaning. > >Liverpool and the rest of the English-speaking world, two nations divided >by a common language? Of course improper has pejorative connotations. > >> When you do something wrong it is improper even if your motives are pure >> and your ignorance is total. > >Perhaps. But I do not believe these players are doing anything "wrong". >L42b says "He may try to prevent any irregularity by declarer." I happen >to believe that in 90+% of cases where dummy points out the lead from the >wrong hand that is exactly what they are *trying* to do. The law does not >require that the attempt have a chance of success. > >Do you consider it an "irregularity" for declarer to gain a trick he would >not otherwise make by leading from the wrong hand against poor opponents? >It feels "wrong" to me and I would try to prevent it by telling partner he >has led from the wrong hand. You can call my action improper if you wish >but I remain comfortable with it. So what? It is improper, and that has no pejorative connotations. If you really want every different word to mean the same then you should be writing for the media. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 18:01:03 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:01:03 +0100 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000901c494ce$ae31a740$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000901c494ce$ae31a740$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> David Stevenson >............ >> >Unless the opening leader has a very "safe" lead I'm afraid that any >> >successful lead could be ruled as possibly suggested by the hesitation. >> >> This old chestnut has been raised so many times ... >> >> The way the Law is written this ruling can *never* be acceptable. UI >> rulings are based on one action being suggested over another, so you >> cannot have no successful acceptable alternative. > >Not to reopen any old discussion: > >Ignoring plain irrational actions I can imagine many situations where ANY >action "could have been suggested" so what you say is that when more than >one alternative action "could have been suggested" then the player who >receives UI is free to select whatever action he likes unless there exists >at least one alternative action which definitely "could not have been >suggested" by the UI? You have, let us say, four possible actions [a lead in any of four suits]. UI suggests A rather than B, and B rather than C, but does not make any suggestion about D. C and D are legal: A and B are not. It is not a question of could have been suggested: it is a question of could have been suggested over another and that cannot leave you without a legal action. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 7 18:04:44 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:04:44 +0100 Subject: [blml] Systems policy In-Reply-To: References: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> Message-ID: Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC) wrote >On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, David Stevenson wrote: > >> Hang on - you are looking at it backwards. We are not talking of >> someone who agrees that 2S shows 5 spades and 3 hearts, we are talking >> of someone who plays 2S as 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. > >In NL, I can define a weak 2 as "5+ in the major bid, 0-2 cards in the >other major". This is the same as saying "5+ spades and 3+ in a minor" >and includes 5233. I can even define my weak two as "5+ spades, 3+ >hearts". What I cannot do though, is to call this hand a 2-suiter. > >What this rule effectively says is "if you call it a two-suiter, you have >to have length in 2 suits". Length is defined as 4+ cards, so 53-32 is >not a two-suiter. The definition makes it clear that they are talking of a two-suiter with 3+ cards in one suit. You want ot call it something different [and more sensible]? Fine. But the regulation is to be followed, and the fact that you do not like the wording is irrelevant. You then put a case of a bid that does not show a 2-suiter. I don't see how this affects things. But *if* you play 2S as showing 5-7 spades, and 3-7 diamonds, it seems ot be illegal under the definition. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 7 21:00:33 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:00:33 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c49515$56b48720$6900a8c0@WINXP> > David Stevenson > Sven Pran wrote > >> David Stevenson > >............ > >> >Unless the opening leader has a very "safe" lead I'm afraid that = any > >> >successful lead could be ruled as possibly suggested by the > hesitation. > >> > >> This old chestnut has been raised so many times ... > >> > >> The way the Law is written this ruling can *never* be = acceptable. > UI > >> rulings are based on one action being suggested over another, so = you > >> cannot have no successful acceptable alternative. > > > >Not to reopen any old discussion: > > > >Ignoring plain irrational actions I can imagine many situations where = ANY > >action "could have been suggested" so what you say is that when more = than > >one alternative action "could have been suggested" then the player = who > >receives UI is free to select whatever action he likes unless there > exists > >at least one alternative action which definitely "could not have been > >suggested" by the UI? >=20 > You have, let us say, four possible actions [a lead in any of four > suits]. >=20 > UI suggests A rather than B, and B rather than C, but does not make > any suggestion about D. C and D are legal: A and B are not. >=20 > It is not a question of could have been suggested: it is a question = of > could have been suggested over another and that cannot leave you = without > a legal action. Yes, but "could have been suggested over another" is a subjective assessment. Isn't it possible that after consulting between a few directors and/or players you have a vote for each alternative that it "could have been suggested over the other alternatives"? In my mind a spade lead or a club lead could have been suggested over a heart lead. Next director objects and says that in his mind a heart lead could have been suggested over any other lead and the last director says that in his opinion a trump lead (diamonds) is suggested. Now what? Who is to rule which of the Directors is right? Will such a disagreement end with the ruling that neither alternative is suggested = over any of the others? This appears to me to be the correct ruling in this scenario. If not we have my case where the "offender" will have no legal choice. Regards Sven=20 From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 8 00:28:30 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:28:30 +0100 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots Message-ID: <002501c49532$630398a0$1c9468d5@jeushtlj> [Frances Hinden] > 1S P 2C P > 3D(1) P 4NT(2) P > 6D(3) P 7D P(4) > P P > (1) strong, spades and diamonds > (2) blackwood in diamonds > (3) even number of keycards and a void > (4) very, very slow > What suit does the UI of partner's very > slow pass suggest leading? Or to put it > another way, if you lead a non-trump > and it beats the contract, what chance > have you of keeping your good score? > If you are the AC, would the opening > leader's argument for what suit was > suggested by the UI convince you to > let the score stand if he led a different > one, even if you think the logic is wrong? [Nigel] IMO, if partner has a Lightner double for spades I assume), then he would make it, especially after the hesitation; so if partner is an expert, he doesn't want the Lightner lead. It is possible that he'd like a red suit lead. But I reckon that partner's hesitation suggests a trump lead. The TD/AC are obliged by law to allow any LA that isn't suggested by the hesitation. IMO, that means the TD must accept at least one action as permissable, looking only at the leader's hand, *before examining the full deal* (I don't think this is a written rule and I've never seen a TD actually do it) The insuperable difficulty with the law, is that you would need a detailed knowledge of OS partnership understandings and history to guess what the hesitation may mean. You will be lucky to do better than chance. Whereas, a regular partnership will correctly guess the meaning of most of each other's hesitations. So I agree with Frances that the TD should ask the OS what the hesitation suggests (although he may have to season the answer with a pinch of salt) Euthanasia is the humane course of action: shoot the hesitater! Or at least concentrate legislation on the tempo-break itself rather than what UI it may convey; TDs should be pragmatists bot not parapsychologists! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03-Sep-04 From blml@blakjak.com Wed Sep 8 02:00:51 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 02:00:51 +0100 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000001c49515$56b48720$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000001c49515$56b48720$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> David Stevenson >> Sven Pran wrote >> >> David Stevenson >> >............ >> >> >Unless the opening leader has a very "safe" lead I'm afraid that any >> >> >successful lead could be ruled as possibly suggested by the >> hesitation. >> >> >> >> This old chestnut has been raised so many times ... >> >> >> >> The way the Law is written this ruling can *never* be acceptable. >> UI >> >> rulings are based on one action being suggested over another, so you >> >> cannot have no successful acceptable alternative. >> > >> >Not to reopen any old discussion: >> > >> >Ignoring plain irrational actions I can imagine many situations where ANY >> >action "could have been suggested" so what you say is that when more than >> >one alternative action "could have been suggested" then the player who >> >receives UI is free to select whatever action he likes unless there >> exists >> >at least one alternative action which definitely "could not have been >> >suggested" by the UI? >> >> You have, let us say, four possible actions [a lead in any of four >> suits]. >> >> UI suggests A rather than B, and B rather than C, but does not make >> any suggestion about D. C and D are legal: A and B are not. >> >> It is not a question of could have been suggested: it is a question of >> could have been suggested over another and that cannot leave you without >> a legal action. > >Yes, but "could have been suggested over another" is a subjective >assessment. > >Isn't it possible that after consulting between a few directors and/or >players you have a vote for each alternative that it "could have been >suggested over the other alternatives"? > >In my mind a spade lead or a club lead could have been suggested over a >heart lead. Next director objects and says that in his mind a heart lead >could have been suggested over any other lead and the last director says >that in his opinion a trump lead (diamonds) is suggested. > >Now what? Who is to rule which of the Directors is right? Will such a >disagreement end with the ruling that neither alternative is suggested over >any of the others? This appears to me to be the correct ruling in this >scenario. If not we have my case where the "offender" will have no legal >choice. No, I am sorry, a complete failure of a TD to do his job does not mean there is no legal option, it just means the TD refuses to do his job. The Law is quite clear, and any competent TD will decide which action is suggested over another. I find it incredible that you suggest that a TD's incompetence means the players have no legal option. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Wed Sep 8 02:31:42 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:31:42 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <200409071506.i87F6q4h009896@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409071506.i87F6q4h009896@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <413E60FE.1090805@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Hinden, Frances SI-PXS" > 1S P 2C P > 3D(1) P 4NT(2) P > 6D(3) P 7D P(4) > P P > > (1) strong, spades and diamonds > (2) blackwood in diamonds > (3) even number of keycards and a void > (4) very, very slow > > What suit does the UI of partner's very slow pass suggest leading? It's pretty clearly saying "Some plain suit lead will be good." If a trump is a LA, that's the only legal lead. (_All_ plain suits are "suggested over" a trump.) If a trump isn't a LA, I don't see how any plain suit is indicated over any other, though this might depend on exactly what lead-directing agreements there are. Herman's analysis looked exactly right to me. > Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the contract, > what chance have you of keeping your good score? Pretty small, I should think. A trump is nearly always a LA against a grand slam, although it's possible on this auction that it could pick up partner's queen. It doesn't look to me like enough of a possibility to render a trump "not a LA," but that would depend on exactly what cards the player holds and perhaps on the opponents' agreements. > If you are the AC, would the opening leader's argument for what suit was > suggested by the UI convince you to let the score stand if he led a different > one, even if you think the logic is wrong? I'd have to hear the argument, but I don't see how an argument with wrong logic would convince me. In the circumstances you postulate, the player quite likely has misjudged the UI position in all good faith, but good faith doesn't prevent an adjusted score. From: "Sven Pran" > Isn't it possible that after consulting between a few directors and/or > players you have a vote for each alternative that it "could have been > suggested over the other alternatives"? I think this is exactly why the 1997 Laws added the word "demonstrably" to L16. If reasonable people disagree on what the UI showed, you will have a hard time demonstrating that it suggested one action over another. From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Wed Sep 8 02:45:22 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:45:22 -0400 Subject: [blml] to be or not 2b In-Reply-To: <200409071507.i87F78sJ009914@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409071507.i87F78sJ009914@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <413E6432.5030202@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Sven Pran" > There is no formal difference between Laws 25A and 25B; they both allow the > substitution of a call on certain conditions (which of course are different > for the two laws). Seems exactly right to me. > But the main question has arisen from the fact that we have unconditional > time limits associated with each of these laws: Until partner has made a > call for L25A, until LHO has made a call for L25B. ... > Exactly when (in your opinion) does this period expire when the inadvertent > call was a pass and partner will normally not have another turn to call? If you reread L17E, you will see that most passes are the same as any other call. However, there is a special problem for the specific auction consisting of four passes. The auction period is over as soon as the fourth pass is made. Can the fourth pass be corrected under _either_ L25A or L25B after the auction period is over? I don't see anything saying one way or the other. David's rule that no corrections should be allowed after the auction period is a reasonable one, but I don't see it anywhere in TFLB. Whatever you believe about allowing corrections, I don't see why there should be any difference between a 25A and a 25B correction. Either both are potentially allowable after the fourth pass or neither is, unless I'm missing something. The same applies to a L25A correction of the _third_ pass, though for that one it is too late for 25B. Personally, I think the new Laws (and SO regulations where applicable) should give a reasonable interval for checking a call before it is considered made (say along the lines of the ACBL's bidding box regulations), but once the call is "made," there should be no changes allowed. From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 02:46:23 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:46:23 -0400 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <000201c494bc$e36005e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: On Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004, at 05:27 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > So unless you have full control of all boards during all the time (and > who > has?) you cannot really rule one reason above the other. > > Then when the players have not noticed any error with the pack you > should > not afterwards intervene and say something like "you must have played > with > an incorrect pack so your result must be cancelled" without real > evidence. > > Hence: "Beyond doubt" Sorry. Which Law? From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 02:52:05 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:52:05 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000601c494c1$eab69610$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: On Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004, at 06:03 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > Unless the opening leader has a very "safe" lead I'm afraid that any > successful lead could be ruled as possibly suggested by the hesitation. I can't seem to find the word "possibly" in Law 16. Am I reading it wrong? From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Wed Sep 8 02:58:07 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:58:07 -0400 Subject: [blml] Re: f In-Reply-To: <200409062130.i86LUYUm013386@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409062130.i86LUYUm013386@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <413E672F.8010108@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Nigel Guthrie" > Grattan will > correct me if I'm wrong, Not to be counted upon, though we can hope so. > but I recall a previous > thread about "whether it's OK to ask hypothetical > questions about future developments in opponents' > auction?". If I remember rightly, Grattan replied > that if the law book does not explicitly permit it > then it is illegal. I don't recall Grattan writing that, and it seems contrary to the WBFLC minute. Could it be something he wrote before the minute was agreed? > Later, he explained his > reasoning by quoting another minute which said > something like: "a player is likely to be ruled > against if his action, not explicitly permitted, > may give UI." (a rough paraphrase from memory). This is, of course, merely a restatement of L16A. If a player does _anything_ extraneous that suggests an action to partner, that action is illegal unless there are no LA's. Depending on circumstances, this may or may not have the same effect as if the extraneous action itself had been illegal. The basis for adjustment is different, though quite often the result will turn out to be the same. > it is blatant UI to allow partner to see cards > from more than one trick simultaneously. Reference, please? Or maybe not. You seem to have invented a rule -- which might be a good rule to have -- and are determined to find it in TFLB somewhere. Unfortunately, no one but you seems to be able to find it there. > I confess I am more interested in what the law > book will say in the future than what it now says. > I hope the new law-book will outlaw such leads > clearly and simply. I don't think it would be bad to define normal procedure as all four cards to one trick being turned over before the lead is made to the next trick. From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Wed Sep 8 03:19:31 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:19:31 -0400 Subject: [blml] L45D - Squared In-Reply-To: <200409071507.i87F7aRQ009956@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409071507.i87F7aRQ009956@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <413E6C33.7040306@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "David Barton" > South is Declarer in a 4S contract. > West leads a Heart in which dummy holds A7. > Declarer nominates (non too clearly) the A, [Directions have been rotated to make South declarer -- much easier for some of us to follow that way.] First the TD has to rule on the above fact. If the ruling is that declarer said (or otherwise indicated) "ace," then "none too clearly" doesn't matter. If the designation was unclear, though, there may be a case for ruling that declarer called for the seven. After all, both North and East seemed to think so at the time. (In English, "ace" and "eight" are the biggest problem.) > but dummy places the 7 > in the played position. > East "wins" with the K, Declarer contributing a small Heart. > East leads a second Heart, West (out of rotation) ruffs this and Dummy > (for a second time) plays a card not nominated by Declarer by playing the > bare Ace. Declarer's side has not played a card to this trick, so it is still in time for L45D. > Observations:- > It is clear that L45D allows for the AH to be withdrawn, but does this mean > that this play "never happened". I thought the ruling was that H-A was played at T1. Did you mean dummy's "play" to T2? That is irrelevant -- dummy does not "play" any cards. North should be cautioned not to move cards around until declarer calls for them. > Are we now back to a position in which > the declaring side has not played to T2, hence allowing T1 to be corrected. L45B specifies how declarer plays a card from dummy. In your narrative, declarer has played no card to "T2." > Finally if you allow T1 to be corrected which of the withdrawn actions, > East's KH to T1 and West's ruff to T2, are AI and to which side? > (both sides appear to be "offending" at T2). This is knottier. Dummy caused the original problem, so I would say East's H-K, declarer's small heart, and East's second heart are AI to defenders, UI to declarer. It looks to me as though West's trump at T2, played out of rotation, is a major penalty card, but I'm not certain. My reasoning is that the card can be withdrawn without penalty only after declarer's play to T2, but declarer has never played to T2. There is also L72B1 to consider. Could declarer have expected to gain by mumbling? As usual, life gets complicated when there are multiple irregularities! From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 8 08:19:41 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:19:41 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <413E60FE.1090805@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000101c49574$35226cd0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Steve Willner ............... > From: "Sven Pran" > > Isn't it possible that after consulting between a few directors = and/or > > players you have a vote for each alternative that it "could have = been > > suggested over the other alternatives"? >=20 > I think this is exactly why the 1997 Laws added the word = "demonstrably" > to L16. If reasonable people disagree on what the UI showed, you will > have a hard time demonstrating that it suggested one action over = another. At last one person who grasped my point: Cases are possible where the UI "could suggest" any of the available alternatives but then hardly some alternative "demonstrably over = another". Then if we want to assure that some legal alternative shall still be available we have no choice but to allow them all. This seems to be one such case; nobody has so far come up with a clear understanding on what "could demonstrably have been suggested" by the hesitation. We all seem to agree that what partner considered was = whether he should double but we don't know why he eventually did not. Even a trump = lead which clearly would be out of question against a Lightner-doubled slam becomes a strong candidate for "could have demonstrably been suggested" = when partner did not double after all. Sven From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 8 08:26:12 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:26:12 +0200 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c49575$1e972270$6900a8c0@WINXP> Ed Reppert > Sven Pran wrote: > > > So unless you have full control of all boards during > > all the time (and who has?) > > you cannot really rule one reason above the other. > > > > Then when the players have not noticed any error with > > the pack you should not afterwards intervene and say > > something like "you must have played with an incorrect > > pack so your result must be cancelled" without real > > evidence. > > > > Hence: "Beyond doubt" > > Sorry. Which Law? I require laws as foundations for my actions, not for not taking an action. Do you? Regards Sven From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 8 08:28:54 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:28:54 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c49575$7f12d770$6900a8c0@WINXP> Ed Reppert > On Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004, at 06:03 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: >=20 > > Unless the opening leader has a very "safe" lead I'm afraid that any > > successful lead could be ruled as possibly suggested by the = hesitation. >=20 > I can't seem to find the word "possibly" in Law 16. Am I reading it > wrong? To me a construction using the words "could have been" implies a high = degree of "possibility" rather than certainty. Regards Sven=20 From ehaa@starpower.net Wed Sep 8 13:15:50 2004 From: ehaa@starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:15:50 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000001c49515$56b48720$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000001c49515$56b48720$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908080925.02bf1010@pop.starpower.net> At 04:00 PM 9/7/04, Sven wrote: >Yes, but "could have been suggested over another" is a subjective >assessment. > >Isn't it possible that after consulting between a few directors and/or >players you have a vote for each alternative that it "could have been >suggested over the other alternatives"? > >In my mind a spade lead or a club lead could have been suggested over a >heart lead. Next director objects and says that in his mind a heart lead >could have been suggested over any other lead and the last director says >that in his opinion a trump lead (diamonds) is suggested. > >Now what? Who is to rule which of the Directors is right? Will such a >disagreement end with the ruling that neither alternative is suggested >over >any of the others? This appears to me to be the correct ruling in this >scenario. If not we have my case where the "offender" will have no legal >choice. That is why L16A now reads "could demonstrably have been suggested over another". The way we attempt to "demonstrate" such a suggestion is by consulting. If we fail to get some measure of consensus as to what the UI suggested, it hasn't "demonstrably" suggested anything. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From twm@cix.co.uk Wed Sep 8 14:25:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Law 42: Dummy's rights limit In-Reply-To: <1GQCNvs2cePBFwgS@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: David wrote: > So what? It is improper, and that has no pejorative connotations. The dictionary says (amongst other things): d : not in accord with propriety, modesty, good manners, or good taste If you think the above is not pejorative you are deluding yourself. It is legal to try and prevent an irregularity (even if an educated player would know the attempt to prevent the lead is too late). It is also, IMO, legal to try and prevent partner gaining a trick from a wrong hand lead. If you want to use the term improper *correctly* try "It is improper knowingly to allow partner to gain from a helicopter coup." Please note that I am not saying that "Wrong hand partner" is never an infraction, only that, IME, 90% of cases are genuine tries at preventing irregularities. Tim From twm@cix.co.uk Wed Sep 8 14:25:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000101c49574$35226cd0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven wrote: > At last one person who grasped my point: > > Cases are possible where the UI "could suggest" any of the available > alternatives but then hardly some alternative "demonstrably over > another". > > Then if we want to assure that some legal alternative shall still be > available we have no choice but to allow them all. This is, of course, completely standard - however if it was the "point" of your initial comments it was extremely well-concealed. Tim From dpb3@fastmail.fm Wed Sep 8 15:42:06 2004 From: dpb3@fastmail.fm (David Babcock) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:42:06 -0400 Subject: [blml] Re: f In-Reply-To: <20040908100004.13743.48336.Mailman@toybox.amsterdamned.org> References: <20040908100004.13743.48336.Mailman@toybox.amsterdamned.org> Message-ID: <1094654526.9691.203937845@webmail.messagingengine.com> [Steve Willner] > I don't think it would be bad to define normal procedure as all four > cards to one trick being turned over before the lead is made to the next > trick. I'm fine with that also, though I suggest the provision that the would-be leader can call attention to another player not having turned his card over in a reasonable length of time without risking any possible UI consequences from so doing, if a defender. David Babcock Florida USA From nancy@dressing.org Wed Sep 8 16:00:11 2004 From: nancy@dressing.org (Nancy T Dressing) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:00:11 -0500 Subject: [blml] It happened at the local club. In-Reply-To: <89Owj8VMBLPBFwSN@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000801c495b4$8a40c910$0400a8c0@KEN> Checked this yesterday with a Nationally Rated ACBL director and he said all transfers are announced. I asked about minor suit transfers being alerted and he said "it all amounts to the same thing." Made sense to me, but then..... Nancy -----Original Message----- From: blml-admin@rtflb.org [mailto:blml-admin@rtflb.org] On Behalf Of David Stevenson Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 1:46 PM To: blml@rtflb.org Subject: Re: [blml] It happened at the local club. Steve Willner wrote >> From: "Nancy Dressing" >> The bidding was: >> 1NT Pass 2S* Pass >> 4S Pass ? >> * announced as a transfer and immediately corrected saying "To >>play" > >Just a quick comment. If this was in the ACBL, as I infer from the use >of announcements, the 2S bid should have been alerted in the usual >manner, not announced. Only diamond and heart bids are announced as >"transfer." Nancy probably knows this, and it doesn't matter to the >ruling here but might in some different case. > >Are there any other jurisdictions that use announcements? South Africa - but only for opening 2-bids. The EBU is discussing the possibility. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ _______________________________________________ blml mailing list blml@rtflb.org http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004 From jaapvanderneut@hotmail.com Tue Sep 7 19:59:21 2004 From: jaapvanderneut@hotmail.com (Jaap van der Neut (hotmail)) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:59:21 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots References: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101816E36@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4951D.8C6F9690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tie yourself in knotsFrancis: Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the = contract, what chance have you of keeping your good score? Please don't do this. The (exact) shape is actually relevant for this = problem. Francis: What suit does the UI of partner's very slow pass suggest leading?=20 Spades or maybe clubs (depending on my unknown distribution). Francis: Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the = contract, what chance have you of keeping your good score? Silly question. Leading trumps is totally crazy against this sequence so = you cannot blame someone for not leading trumps. The question should be = what if you lead a non-heart and ...... Look against this type of sequence your number one option is to cash an = ace if they have misjudged the void (or #aces), if we have a natural = trick who cares. The normal meaning of double is here 'lead clubs' and = so my natural lead against 7D undoubled is hearts. This under the = assumption that it is unlikely for the SA to disappear. But this is = possible if dummy has enough clubs. So the first illegal meaning of the = pause is that partner has SA. But there are variations. If I have some = spade length partner might be afraid double asks for a ruff (looking at = CA and a stiff spade). Or partner is void in spades, now afraid double = asks for clubs plus opps might run.=20 Bottom line I would rule against a non-heart lead because if the pause = means something it always means one way or another: don't make your = normal lead. Which is hearts not trumps. For the same reason I would = rule against a non-club lead after a (very) slow double.=20 Jaap ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hinden, Frances SI-PXS=20 To: blml@rtflb.org=20 Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 4:54 PM Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the = contract, what chance have you of keeping your good score? 1S P 2C P=20 3D(1) P 4NT(2) P=20 6D(3) P 7D P(4)=20 P P=20 (1) strong, spades and diamonds=20 (2) blackwood in diamonds=20 (3) even number of keycards and a void=20 (4) very, very slow=20 What suit does the UI of partner's very slow pass suggest leading?=20 Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it beats the = contract, what chance have you of keeping your good score? If you are the AC, would the opening leader's argument for what suit = was suggested by the UI convince you to let the score stand if he led a = different one, even if you think the logic is wrong? [At the table the contract made, so there never was a ruling. The = opening leader was confident about which suit his partner wanted and led = a different one. He was right, but I think the pause means something = else and might have beaten it by accident!] Frances Hinden Strategic Planning Shell International Ltd. Shell Centre, London, SE1 7NA, UK Tel: +44 (0) 20 7934 2529 Fax: 6982 Mobile: +44 (0) 7899 065392 Email: Frances.Hinden@ shell.com Internet:http://www.shell.com/ This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information = which should not be used, copied or disclosed without permission. If you = are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4951D.8C6F9690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tie yourself in knots
Francis:
Or to put it another way, if you lead a = non-trump and it=20 beats the contract, what chance have you of keeping your good=20 score?
 
Please don't do this. The = (exact) shape=20 is actually relevant for this problem.
 
Francis:
What suit does the UI of partner's very slow = pass suggest=20 leading?
 
Spades or maybe = clubs (depending on my=20 unknown distribution).
 
Francis:
Or to put it another way, if you lead a = non-trump and it=20 beats the contract, what chance have you of keeping your good=20 score?
 
Silly question. Leading trumps = is totally=20 crazy against this sequence so you cannot blame someone for not leading = trumps.=20 The question should be what if you lead a non-heart and = .....
 
Look against this type of = sequence your=20 number one option is to cash an ace if they have misjudged the void (or = #aces),=20 if we have a natural trick who cares. The normal meaning of double is = here 'lead=20 clubs' and so my natural lead against 7D undoubled is hearts. This under = the=20 assumption that it is unlikely for the SA to disappear. But this is = possible if dummy has enough clubs. So the first illegal meaning of the = pause is=20 that partner has SA. But there are variations. If I have some spade = length=20 partner might be afraid double asks for a ruff (looking at CA and a = stiff=20 spade). Or partner is void in spades, now afraid double asks for clubs = plus opps=20 might run. 
 
Bottom line I would rule against = a non-heart=20 lead because if the pause means something it always means one way or = another:=20 don't make your normal lead. Which is hearts not trumps. For the = same=20 reason I would rule against a non-club lead after a (very) slow double.=20
 
Jaap
 
 
----- Original Message = -----=20
To: blml@rtflb.org
Sent: Friday, = September 03,=20 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: [blml] = Tie yourself=20 in knots

Or to put it another way, if you lead a = non-trump and it=20 beats the contract, what chance have you of keeping your good=20 score?

1S      = P    =20 2C       P
3D(1) P  = 4NT(2)  P=20
6D(3) P   7D       P(4)=20
P       P

(1)  strong, spades and diamonds =
(2) =20 blackwood in diamonds
(3)  even number of keycards and a void =
(4)  very, very slow

What suit does the UI of partner's very slow = pass suggest=20 leading?
Or to put it another way, if you lead a non-trump and it = beats=20 the contract, what chance have you of keeping your good = score?

If you are the AC, would the opening leader's = argument for=20 what suit was suggested by the UI convince you to let the score stand = if he=20 led a different one, even if you think the logic is wrong?

[At the table the contract made, so there never = was a=20 ruling.  The opening leader was confident about which suit his = partner=20 wanted and led a different one.  He was right, but I think the = pause=20 means something else and might have beaten it by = accident!]


Frances Hinden
Strategic Planning
Shell=20 International Ltd.
Shell Centre, London, SE1 7NA, UK

Tel: = +44 (0) 20=20 7934 2529 Fax: 6982 Mobile: +44 (0) 7899 065392
Email: = Frances.Hinden@ = shell.com
Internet:http://www.shell.com/
This=20 email may contain confidential and/or privileged information which = should not=20 be used, copied or disclosed without permission. If you are not an = intended=20 recipient, please contact the sender=20 immediately.

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4951D.8C6F9690-- From schoderb@msn.com Wed Sep 8 16:31:03 2004 From: schoderb@msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:31:03 -0400 Subject: [blml] Re: f References: <20040908100004.13743.48336.Mailman@toybox.amsterdamned.org> <1094654526.9691.203937845@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: And also protect the newly proper leader from penalty such as the play of a fifth card to a trick, etc. Be careful, it is very easy to open the doors to the "bad" bridge lawyers (as opposed to the "good" ones) to set traps and gain advantages. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Babcock" To: "Bridge Laws Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:42 AM Subject: [blml] Re: f > [Steve Willner] > > > I don't think it would be bad to define normal procedure as all four > > cards to one trick being turned over before the lead is made to the next > > trick. > > I'm fine with that also, though I suggest the provision that > the would-be leader can call attention to another player not having > turned his card over in a reasonable length of time without risking any > possible UI consequences from so doing, if a defender. > > David Babcock > Florida USA > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 8 17:44:54 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:44:54 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c495c3$2b162750$6900a8c0@WINXP> Tim West-Meads > Sven wrote: >=20 > > At last one person who grasped my point: > > > > Cases are possible where the UI "could suggest" any of the available > > alternatives but then hardly some alternative "demonstrably over > > another". > > > > Then if we want to assure that some legal alternative shall still be > > available we have no choice but to allow them all. >=20 > This is, of course, completely standard - however if it was the = "point" of > your initial comments it was extremely well-concealed. I have the impression of a wide opinion here on blml that if more than = one logically alternative action exists for a player who has received UI = then the Director must determine which alternative is suggested by the UI. So I tried to show that we have cases where we cannot show one LA as = being suggested unless all logical alternatives are suggested. It appears that = I succeeded and that the general opinion at blml shows my impression above = to be wrong? Regards Sven=20 From ehaa@starpower.net Wed Sep 8 18:51:30 2004 From: ehaa@starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:51:30 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000401c495c3$2b162750$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000401c495c3$2b162750$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908134517.02af13b0@pop.starpower.net> At 12:44 PM 9/8/04, Sven wrote: >I have the impression of a wide opinion here on blml that if more than one >logically alternative action exists for a player who has received UI then >the Director must determine which alternative is suggested by the UI. > >So I tried to show that we have cases where we cannot show one LA as being >suggested unless all logical alternatives are suggested. It appears that I >succeeded and that the general opinion at blml shows my impression >above to >be wrong? I have no difficulty reading L16A to allow for the possibility that some set of LAs may be demonstrably suggested over another. If a player has four LAs, A, B, C and D, and we can "demonstrate" (by consultation) that the UI he has suggests that either A or B is more likely to be successful than either C or D, he violates L16A if he chooses either A or B. WTP? Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 8 19:45:09 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:45:09 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908134517.02af13b0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <000501c495d3$f78122d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Eric Landau > At 12:44 PM 9/8/04, Sven wrote: >=20 > >I have the impression of a wide opinion here on blml that if more = than > one > >logically alternative action exists for a player who has received UI = then > >the Director must determine which alternative is suggested by the UI. > > > >So I tried to show that we have cases where we cannot show one LA as > being > >suggested unless all logical alternatives are suggested. It appears = that > I > >succeeded and that the general opinion at blml shows my impression > >above to > >be wrong? >=20 > I have no difficulty reading L16A to allow for the possibility that > some set of LAs may be demonstrably suggested over another. If a > player has four LAs, A, B, C and D, and we can "demonstrate" (by > consultation) that the UI he has suggests that either A or B is more > likely to be successful than either C or D, he violates L16A if he > chooses either A or B. WTP? No problem with this.=20 My point was that a situation could easily occur where neither of the alternatives A, B, C or D was "demonstrably" suggested over any of the others. In that case we must allow the player whatever alternative he chooses. Sven From twm@cix.co.uk Wed Sep 8 21:51:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908134517.02af13b0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: Eric wrote: > I have no difficulty reading L16A to allow for the possibility that > some set of LAs may be demonstrably suggested over another. If a > player has four LAs, A, B, C and D, and we can "demonstrate" (by > consultation) that the UI he has suggests that either A or B is more > likely to be successful than either C or D, he violates L16A if he > chooses either A or B. WTP? No problem. But there are related cases which seem to cause more confusion. 3 choice scenario: UI suggests that one of A/B will be better than C and the other worse. Circular Scenario: A>B>C>A Tim From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 22:11:07 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:11:07 -0400 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <000201c49575$1e972270$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <99C770B0-01DB-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 03:26 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > I require laws as foundations for my actions, not for not taking an > action. > Do you? I am trying to figure out which law is your foundation for ruling that the nine previous boards in this scenario need not be cancelled. You seem to be saying "no one can *prove* that the boards were fouled in pre-duplication, therefore they must be presumed to have conformed to Law 1, and to not conform to the definition of "fouled board" in Law 87, in all rounds prior to the round in which the problem was discovered". Is that an accurate statement of your position? If not, I apologize - apparently I missed something. If it is, then I disagree. I suppose you could invoke Law 85B, doing so because you don't *know* when the boards became fouled, and then say that canceling the boards is not "a ruling that will permit play to continue", but I don't like the taste of that one much either. From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 22:17:10 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:17:10 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000301c49575$7f12d770$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <725AC6A8-01DC-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 03:28 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > To me a construction using the words "could have been" implies a high > degree > of "possibility" rather than certainty. A degree, certainly. But I am focused rather on the word "demonstrably". And I don't agree that if N people think an action suggested N+1 different things, that *all* of those things are thereby "demonstrably" suggested. Down that road lies chaos. From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 22:23:07 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:23:07 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000401c495c3$2b162750$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <4700D49C-01DD-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 12:44 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > I have the impression of a wide opinion here on blml that if more than > one > logically alternative action exists for a player who has received UI > then > the Director must determine which alternative is suggested by the UI. > > So I tried to show that we have cases where we cannot show one LA as > being > suggested unless all logical alternatives are suggested. It appears > that I > succeeded and that the general opinion at blml shows my impression > above to > be wrong? I would not presume to speak for anyone else, but it seems to me that what the director must determine is whether the action chosen by a player who has received UI was demonstrably suggested over other logical alternative actions. Whether any of those alternatives were suggested is irrelevant. If UI suggests that any of several LAs might be best, then none, it seems to me, is demonstrably suggested *over* any other. From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 22:24:00 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:24:00 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000501c495d3$f78122d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <666C76DE-01DD-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 14:45 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > My point was that a situation could easily occur where neither of the > alternatives A, B, C or D was "demonstrably" suggested over any of the > others. In that case we must allow the player whatever alternative he > chooses. Yep. From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 22:27:10 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:27:10 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 16:51 US/Eastern, Tim West-Meads wrote: > 3 choice scenario: UI suggests that one of A/B will be better than C > and > the other worse. > > Circular Scenario: A>B>C>A No. (A OR B)>C>(whichever of A or B is *not* > C) If you can't tell from the UI which of A or B is which, than either neither of them are demonstrably suggested over C, or both of them are. You pick. :-) From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 22:34:15 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:34:15 -0400 Subject: [blml] Law 42: Dummy's rights limit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 09:25 US/Eastern, Tim West-Meads wrote: > Please note that I am not saying that "Wrong hand partner" is never an > infraction, only that, IME, 90% of cases are genuine tries at > preventing > irregularities. Your argument boils down, it seems to me, to "dummy didn't intend to participate in the play (an infraction of L43A1(c)), he intended to try to prevent his partner from leading from the wrong hand (legal per L42B2)". Fair enough, but is "I didn't mean it, Your Honor" an adequate excuse for violating the law? From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Wed Sep 8 22:45:12 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:45:12 -0400 Subject: [blml] It happened at the local club. In-Reply-To: <000801c495b4$8a40c910$0400a8c0@KEN> Message-ID: <5CBFA402-01E0-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 11:00 US/Eastern, Nancy T Dressing wrote: > Checked this yesterday with a Nationally Rated ACBL director and he=20 > said > all transfers are announced. I asked about minor suit transfers being > alerted and he said "it all amounts to the same thing." Made sense to > me, but then..... I think of an announcement as a kind of alert, so in that sense it=20 *does* amount to the same thing. However, the words of the alert=20 regulation are clear: RESPONSES TO ONE NOTRUMP OPENINGS 1) 2C: If it requires partner to bid a four-card major it is not=20 Alertable; all other uses must be Alerted. 2) 2D: If natural and non-invitational, it is not Alertable. A transfer=20= to hearts is Announced. All other uses must be Alerted. 3) 2H: If natural and non-invitational, it is not Alertable. A transfer=20= to spades is Announced. All other uses must be Alerted. 4) 2S: If natural and non-invitational, it is not Alertable. All other=20= uses must be Alerted. 5) 2NT: If invitational to 3NT, it is not Alertable. All other uses=20 must be Alerted. 6) 3C/D/H/S: If natural, they are not Alertable. All other uses must be=20= Alerted, or=85 7) 3D/H, and 4D/H,: If transfers to hearts and spades, respectively,=20 must be Announced. Minor suit transfers fall under "all other uses" in 4, 5, 6.= From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 8 23:18:38 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 00:18:38 +0200 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <99C770B0-01DB-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c495f1$ca1865b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Ed Reppert > > I require laws as foundations for my actions, not for not taking an > > action. > > Do you? >=20 > I am trying to figure out which law is your foundation for ruling that > the nine previous boards in this scenario need not be cancelled. You > seem to be saying "no one can *prove* that the boards were fouled in > pre-duplication, therefore they must be presumed to have conformed to > Law 1, and to not conform to the definition of "fouled board" in Law > 87, in all rounds prior to the round in which the problem was > discovered". Is that an accurate statement of your position? If not, I > apologize - apparently I missed something. If it is, then I disagree. = I > suppose you could invoke Law 85B, doing so because you don't *know* > when the boards became fouled, and then say that canceling the boards > is not "a ruling that will permit play to continue", but I don't like > the taste of that one much either. If I cannot establish at what time (and preferably but not necessarily = how) the board got fouled I have no foundation for saying that it must have = been fouled already when being played at a previous board from where the foul = was discovered. Now if for instance as David has suggested we have two boards with one = or more cards being swapped between them (fouling both boards) and the = boards have been located in different rooms all the time then we know that the = mix up must have happened before these boards arrived in the playrooms. In = such cases we must cancel all results obtained on these boards. But if there is the slightest chance that the mix up may have occurred = for instance between round 9 and round 10 then we are faced with the players official reports (i.e. score sheets) confirming that they have played = bridge with the boards and accepted both the results and the condition of the boards. In this case the Director is in my opinion bound by these = reports that the boards were OK when played. Without convincing evidence that = the boards must have been fouled he has no legal authority to cancel the = results reported by the players on his own initiative. Sven From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 8 23:21:48 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 00:21:48 +0200 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <725AC6A8-01DC-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <000901c495f2$3bd44d90$6900a8c0@WINXP> Ed Reppert > On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 03:28 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > > > To me a construction using the words "could have been" implies a high > > degree > > of "possibility" rather than certainty. > > A degree, certainly. But I am focused rather on the word > "demonstrably". And I don't agree that if N people think an action > suggested N+1 different things, that *all* of those things are thereby > "demonstrably" suggested. Down that road lies chaos. Just my apparently extremely well concealed point. Sven (Sorry for the additional direct addressing to you Ed, it slipped away before I had corrected the "to" address) From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Thu Sep 9 00:23:33 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:23:33 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <000901c495f2$3bd44d90$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <1A3EB576-01EE-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 18:21 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > Just my apparently extremely well concealed point. :-) > (Sorry for the additional direct addressing to you Ed, it slipped away > before I had corrected the "to" address) No worries. :) From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Thu Sep 9 00:32:37 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:32:37 -0400 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <000701c495f1$ca1865b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <5E55F120-01EF-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 18:18 US/Eastern, Sven Pran wrote: > If I cannot establish at what time (and preferably but not necessarily > how) > the board got fouled I have no foundation for saying that it must have > been > fouled already when being played at a previous board from where the > foul was > discovered. Okay, fair enough. > Now if for instance as David has suggested we have two boards with one > or > more cards being swapped between them (fouling both boards) and the > boards > have been located in different rooms all the time then we know that > the mix > up must have happened before these boards arrived in the playrooms. In > such > cases we must cancel all results obtained on these boards. Agreed. > But if there is the slightest chance that the mix up may have occurred > for > instance between round 9 and round 10 then we are faced with the > players > official reports (i.e. score sheets) confirming that they have played > bridge > with the boards and accepted both the results and the condition of the > boards. In this case the Director is in my opinion bound by these > reports > that the boards were OK when played. Without convincing evidence that > the > boards must have been fouled he has no legal authority to cancel the > results > reported by the players on his own initiative. Hm. Okay, agreed. But the case in point occurred, iirc, at an ACBL Regional. I'd be willing to bet that the boards in question *were* in the same room, that the room was fairly large, so that the two sections in which these boards were played were reasonably separated, and that the boards were pre-duplicated, by hand, at *one* of the tables in one of the sections which started with those boards. IOW, I believe we have David's scenario rather than yours, even though the boards were not actually in different rooms. I can't prove it, of course, but if the folks running that tournament tell us that the boards *were* pre-duplicated in that way, I believe that's the way we should rule. From BrewsterLeingang@latinmail.com Thu Sep 9 06:00:01 2004 From: BrewsterLeingang@latinmail.com (Reno Ramson) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:00:01 -0100 Subject: [blml] fantastic Message-ID: <20040909041432.7EA0570E@rhubarb.custard.org> Upon this imaginary creature rested the responsibility of= all these shipwrecks, which unfortunately were considerable; for of three= thousand ships whose loss was annually recorded at Lloyd's, the number of= sailing and steam-ships supposed to be totally lost, from the absence of = all news, amounted to not less than two hundred!=20















Discontinue Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cru= el and unusual punishments inflicted? The darkness was then profound, and,= however good the Canadian's eyes; Commander Farragut has a cabin at your = disposal: Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature ther= eof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senator= s and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: = but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or = profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector:=20 From gesta@tiscali.co.uk Thu Sep 9 06:57:09 2004 From: gesta@tiscali.co.uk (gesta@tiscali.co.uk) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:57:09 +0100 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots References: <4700D49C-01DD-11D9-851C-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <005101c49636$1c35ba20$690be150@multivisionoem> Grattan Endicott To: "blml" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Tie yourself in knots > > I would not presume to speak for anyone else, but it > seems to me that what the director must determine is > whether the action chosen by a player who has received > UI was demonstrably suggested over other logical > alternative actions. Whether any of those alternatives > were suggested is irrelevant. If UI suggests that any of > several LAs might be best, then none, it seems to me, is > demonstrably suggested *over* any other. > +=+ If one is less suggested than any other then that is the one that is permitted. If there are two, three, etc. that are more or less* equal in this respect but less suggested than any others, then any of these equals may be selected. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ (* 'more or less equal' - i.e. so that the Director is hard put to distinguish among them.) From gesta@tiscali.co.uk Thu Sep 9 07:25:48 2004 From: gesta@tiscali.co.uk (gesta@tiscali.co.uk) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:25:48 +0100 Subject: [blml] Re: f References: <200409062130.i86LUYUm013386@cfa183.cfa.harvard.edu> <413E672F.8010108@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <005201c49636$1d2438d0$690be150@multivisionoem> Grattan Endicott To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:58 AM Subject: [blml] Re: f > > From: "Nigel Guthrie" > > Grattan will > > correct me if I'm wrong, > > Not to be counted upon, though we can hope so. > +=+ I do not presume to 'correct' fellow subscribers. I set out my personal views or the rulings of the WBFLC, endeavouring to make it clear which is which. As I understand the ruling of the WBFLC in the particular connection it is that: 1. The laws set out the correct procedures of the game. 2. Anything not specified in the laws is 'extraneous'. The description is 'extraneous', not 'illegal'. 3. Regulations made under the laws stand part of the laws. 4. Anything extraneous is not part of the game and may not therefore be used by a player as the basis for an action. Its use, being unauthorized either in law or regulation, may thus be ruled 'illegal'. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From svenpran@online.no Thu Sep 9 08:34:20 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:34:20 +0200 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c4963f$6bb02af0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > From: WILLIAM SCHODER=20 ............. > But if there is the slightest chance that the=20 > mix up may have occurred for instance between > round 9 and round 10 then we are faced with=20 > the players official reports (i.e. score sheets) > confirming that they have played bridge with=20 > the boards and accepted both the results and the > condition of the boards. In this case the Director > is in my opinion bound by these reports that the > boards were OK when played. Without convincing=20 > evidence that the boards must have been fouled he > has no legal authority to cancel the results > reported by the players on his own initiative. >=20 > Sven > Snip. >=20 > Come on' the same problem occurred at the same round > in both sections? I don't think you wish to stretch > credibility that far. You look in section A and there > are two 8's of diamonds, you look in section B and=20 > there are two 7's of diamonds, and you re willing to > posit that they might have somehow been fouled during > round 9 or 10. You don't wonder how the 7's and 8's > migrated from one section to the other. Do you really > think that is supportable? During the Norwegian Bridge Festival 2001 we experienced a situation = where some players found another copy of a board they had just played and = compared the two copies. Then when returning the cards to their pockets they accidentally put some cards belonging to copy A into board B and vice = versa. We didn't notice this "irregularity" (violation of Law 7C) when it = occurred but for various reasons we do indeed know that this was exactly what = must have happened! (I don't care to bother blml with all the details) So in my opinion: If the players have filled in and signed their result reports then the Director should not cancel any board without convincing evidence that the board in fact was fouled when played. Even strong suspicion is no longer sufficient. Regards Sven From twm@cix.co.uk Thu Sep 9 09:00:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 16:51 US/Eastern, Tim West-Meads wrote: > > > 3 choice scenario: UI suggests that one of A/B will be better than C > > and > > the other worse. > > > > Circular Scenario: A>B>C>A > > No. (A OR B)>C>(whichever of A or B is *not* > C) > > If you can't tell from the UI which of A or B is which, than either > neither of them are demonstrably suggested over C, or both of them are. > You pick. :-) Ed, the circular scenario is supposed to be different to the 3-choice scenario (it is much rarer)! I don't think we are free to "pick" in (A or B) situation. Assuming equal likelihood we can demonstrate the suggestion of neither. Tim From twm@cix.co.uk Thu Sep 9 09:00:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Law 42: Dummy's rights limit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 09:25 US/Eastern, Tim West-Meads wrote: > > > Please note that I am not saying that "Wrong hand partner" is never an > > infraction, only that, IME, 90% of cases are genuine tries at > > preventing > > irregularities. > > Your argument boils down, it seems to me, to "dummy didn't intend to > participate in the play (an infraction of L43A1(c)), he intended to try > to prevent his partner from leading from the wrong hand (legal per > L42B2)". Fair enough, but is "I didn't mean it, Your Honor" an adequate > excuse for violating the law? No, it isn't. But he *did* mean it. He was too late to succeed, but not too late to *try*. The law expressly permits an attempt (doomed or otherwise). In other words if your judgement tells you he was "trying to prevent an irregularity" there is *no* violation of law. Tim From karel@esatclear.ie Thu Sep 9 10:31:47 2004 From: karel@esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:31:47 +0100 Subject: [blml] Turkey partnership desk Message-ID: <41402303.13b3.0@esatclear.ie> Hi all This is not a bridge laws question. My partner and I wish to go to Turkey to play in the transnational mixed teams. We are an Irish pair. Any of the usual Irish pairs we play with are either not going or are playing in the first week and dont want to play the 2nd week or have other commitments. I was wondering is there some partnership desk type service available and if not does anyone know a good pair who are in a similar situation ?? Karel -- http://www.iol.ie From john@asimere.com Thu Sep 9 11:00:27 2004 From: john@asimere.com (John (MadDog) Probst) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:00:27 +0100 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9PS+$sA7mCQBFwZC@asimere.com> In article , Tim West- Meads writes >> >> On Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004, at 16:51 US/Eastern, Tim West-Meads wrote: >> >> > 3 choice scenario: UI suggests that one of A/B will be better than C >> > and >> > the other worse. >> > >> > Circular Scenario: A>B>C>A >> >> No. (A OR B)>C>(whichever of A or B is *not* > C) >> >> If you can't tell from the UI which of A or B is which, than either >> neither of them are demonstrably suggested over C, or both of them are. >> You pick. :-) > >Ed, the circular scenario is supposed to be different to the 3-choice >scenario (it is much rarer)! > >I don't think we are free to "pick" in (A or B) situation. Assuming equal >likelihood we can demonstrate the suggestion of neither. but then we know that C is definitely not first choice, so we can use C too. This is another "Lead anything" situation IMO. > >Tim > > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@rtflb.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml -- John (MadDog) Probst| . ! -^- |AIM GLChienFou 451 Mile End Road | /|__. \:/ |BCLive ChienFou London E3 4PA | / @ __) -|- |john:at:asimere:dot:com +44-(0)20 8983 5818 | /\ --^ | |www.asimere.com/~john From dpb3@fastmail.fm Thu Sep 9 11:44:12 2004 From: dpb3@fastmail.fm (David Babcock) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:44:12 -0400 Subject: [blml] Re: It happened at the local club. In-Reply-To: <20040908211203.18274.21377.Mailman@toybox.amsterdamned.org> References: <20040908211203.18274.21377.Mailman@toybox.amsterdamned.org> Message-ID: <1094726652.4463.204007538@webmail.messagingengine.com> [Nancy T Dressing] > Checked this yesterday with a Nationally Rated ACBL director and he said > all transfers are announced. I asked about minor suit transfers being > alerted and he said "it all amounts to the same thing." Made sense to > me, but then..... > Nancy ...the lines on the convention card after 2S, 2NT, and 3 of a suit are red. Put a blue check box labeled "transfer" there as an alternative, and you have an announcement, but as the card is printed now, 2S, 2NT, or 3 something as a transfer is an alert, at least as far as players can make out from what they are given. David Babcock Florida USA From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Thu Sep 9 15:33:49 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:33:49 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4402D88C-026D-11D9-989E-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> On Thursday, Sep 9, 2004, at 04:00 US/Eastern, Tim West-Meads wrote: > Ed, the circular scenario is supposed to be different to the 3-choice > scenario (it is much rarer)! I hope so! :-) > I don't think we are free to "pick" in (A or B) situation. Assuming > equal > likelihood we can demonstrate the suggestion of neither. Hm. We can demonstrate that A is suggested over C, and that B is suggested over C. If we say that makes C not a logical alternative, that solves the dilemma, because we can't demonstrate that either A or B is suggested over the other. But can we say that? From ereppert@rochester.rr.com Thu Sep 9 15:37:24 2004 From: ereppert@rochester.rr.com (Ed Reppert) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:37:24 -0400 Subject: [blml] Law 42: Dummy's rights limit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, Sep 9, 2004, at 04:00 US/Eastern, Tim West-Meads wrote: > No, it isn't. But he *did* mean it. He was too late to succeed, but > not > too late to *try*. The law expressly permits an attempt (doomed or > otherwise). In other words if your judgement tells you he was "trying > to > prevent an irregularity" there is *no* violation of law. Hm. I had thought that it was a matter of timing - once declarer has acted, it is too late to try to prevent him from acting. But your argument makes sense. /action tips over his king. :-) From ehaa@starpower.net Thu Sep 9 18:01:30 2004 From: ehaa@starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:01:30 -0400 Subject: [blml] Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <4402D88C-026D-11D9-989E-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> References: <4402D88C-026D-11D9-989E-0030656F6826@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040909115450.02db3480@pop.starpower.net> At 10:33 AM 9/9/04, Ed wrote: >On Thursday, Sep 9, 2004, at 04:00 US/Eastern, Tim West-Meads wrote: > >>I don't think we are free to "pick" in (A or B) situation. Assuming >>equal >>likelihood we can demonstrate the suggestion of neither. > >Hm. We can demonstrate that A is suggested over C, and that B is >suggested over C. If we say that makes C not a logical alternative, >that solves the dilemma, because we can't demonstrate that either A or >B is suggested over the other. But can we say that? What Tim calls the "A or B" situation is something like: In a competitive auction, LHO bids, partner huddles and passes, and it comes around to you. Your LAs are pass, double or save. You know (given your hand) that if pard was thinking of doubling, you'll get a better score by doubling than by passing, but a worse score by saving than by passing. Or, if pard was thinking of saving, you'll improve your (expected) score (compared to passing) by saving but worsen it by doubling. So (with ">" meaning "gives a better expected score than") either double > pass > save, or save > pass > double. For any pair of actions, either one may be better, depending on what pard was thinking about when he huddled. Therefore no one action is demonstrably suggested over another. People get this wrong in two different ways: (a) They ignore the second half of the inequalities: "Partner's pass suggests that taking some action will be better than passing." If you take the winning action, it gets adjusted to a pass, but if you take the losing action you keep your bad score. "After partner huddles, you must pass." But it's equally true that partner's pass suggests that taking some action will be worse than passing, so you must not pass. Impasse. (b) They look at pard's hand to discover what he was actually thinking about, and apply only the corresponding inequalities. Again, if you take the winning action, it gets reversed, inevitably to pass, even though the logic would suggest imposing the action that is worse than passing (which would be patently absurd given the conditions, but what the law would require if partner had been thinking out loud). Players aren't telepathic; partner's huddle suggests whatever it suggests, which doesn't change depending on his cards. Hence the change to L16A in 1997; either set of inequalities is "reasonable", but neither is "demonstrable". Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From gesta@tiscali.co.uk Thu Sep 9 18:37:25 2004 From: gesta@tiscali.co.uk (gesta@tiscali.co.uk) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:37:25 +0100 Subject: [blml] Equitable competition References: <004f01c48345$c03509e0$119868d5@jeushtlj> <000001c4834d$4f681c40$0401010a@Desktop> <4MAhPjFmCeLBFwBP@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <003c01c49693$d472d1b0$bc08e150@multivisionoem> Grattan Endicott To: Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Equitable competition > > OK, it is custom+practice, not a Law. But is > that not enough? > +=+ I think it is custom/practice with some, perhaps most, people. It is not universal, in my experience here in the UK, for example. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu Fri Sep 10 02:11:17 2004 From: grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:11:17 -0400 Subject: [blml] Re: It happened at the local club. In-Reply-To: <1094726652.4463.204007538@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20040908211203.18274.21377.Mailman@toybox.amsterdamned.org> <1094726652.4463.204007538@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040909210527.01ea8320@mail.comcast.net> At 06:44 AM 9/9/2004, David Babcock wrote: >[Nancy T Dressing] > > > Checked this yesterday with a Nationally Rated ACBL director and he said > > all transfers are announced. I asked about minor suit transfers being > > alerted and he said "it all amounts to the same thing." Made sense to > > me, but then..... > > Nancy > >...the lines on the convention card after 2S, 2NT, and 3 of a suit are >red. Put a blue check box labeled "transfer" there as an alternative, >and you have an announcement, but as the card is printed now, 2S, 2NT, >or 3 something as a transfer is an alert, at least as far as players can >make out from what they are given. There is a good reason not to extend this. I have had players announce 2S as "transfer" because it forces opener to bid 3C, but responder actually held diamonds and corrected to 3D. This announcement creates MI, which could damage the next player if he holds clubs and intended to bid 3C himself. Similarly, 2NT is ambiguous; if "transfer", is it a transfer to clubs or diamonds? If the next player cares, he will have to ask. In addition, we do not nead an announcement here. The rationale for most announcements is that one alerted meaning is so common that players do not ask. When I played 2D forcing Stayman before Announcements and Special Alerts, nobody ever asked about the alerted 2D over partner's 1NT. An alerted 2S or 2NT response to 1NT has no obvious meaning, and players will ask anyway if they need to know. From karel@esatclear.ie Fri Sep 10 09:54:52 2004 From: karel@esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:54:52 +0100 Subject: [blml] Long considerations before final pass: Is this an infraction? Message-ID: <41416bdc.40b3.0@esatclear.ie> I had a similar incident but abit more blatant. North S Qxxx H AQTx D Jx C Kxx South S Jx H KJxx D AKQxxx C A N S 1C 1S** 1NT 2H 3H 4C 4H 4NT 5C 6H West asked what the 1S was (Twalshe shows diamonds). East at his turn asked for clarification. East later again at his turn asked for further clarification. West lead a trump. East at the end asked West why she hadn't led a spade !! I made the comment had she done so I would have called the TD. East got quite disgruntled. K. -- http://www.iol.ie From dpb3@fastmail.fm Fri Sep 10 11:41:14 2004 From: dpb3@fastmail.fm (David Babcock) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:41:14 -0400 Subject: [blml] Re: Tie yourself in knots In-Reply-To: <20040910100003.5637.42482.Mailman@toybox.amsterdamned.org> References: <20040910100003.5637.42482.Mailman@toybox.amsterdamned.org> Message-ID: <1094812874.15848.204089776@webmail.messagingengine.com> > Hm. We can demonstrate that A is suggested over C, and that B is > suggested over C. If we say that makes C not a logical alternative, > that solves the dilemma, because we can't demonstrate that either A or > B is suggested over the other. But can we say that? Decision-making among more than two choices is notoriously difficult to model, and the problems come up in such topics as voting systems and economic decision-making. Kenneth Arrow's "impossibility theorem" is one piece of work on the subject. I doubt there is a satisfactory one-size-fits-all resolution in the bridge world either. David Babcock Florida USA From blml@blakjak.com Sat Sep 11 02:52:47 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 02:52:47 +0100 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <000201c4963f$6bb02af0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000201c4963f$6bb02af0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <7h5xUBfvplQBFwKa@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Sven Pran wrote >> From: WILLIAM SCHODER >............. >> But if there is the slightest chance that the >> mix up may have occurred for instance between >> round 9 and round 10 then we are faced with >> the players official reports (i.e. score sheets) >> confirming that they have played bridge with >> the boards and accepted both the results and the >> condition of the boards. In this case the Director >> is in my opinion bound by these reports that the >> boards were OK when played. Without convincing >> evidence that the boards must have been fouled he >> has no legal authority to cancel the results >> reported by the players on his own initiative. >> >> Sven >> Snip. >> >> Come on' the same problem occurred at the same round >> in both sections? I don't think you wish to stretch >> credibility that far. You look in section A and there >> are two 8's of diamonds, you look in section B and >> there are two 7's of diamonds, and you re willing to >> posit that they might have somehow been fouled during >> round 9 or 10. You don't wonder how the 7's and 8's >> migrated from one section to the other. Do you really >> think that is supportable? > >During the Norwegian Bridge Festival 2001 we experienced a situation where >some players found another copy of a board they had just played and compared >the two copies. Then when returning the cards to their pockets they >accidentally put some cards belonging to copy A into board B and vice versa. > >We didn't notice this "irregularity" (violation of Law 7C) when it occurred >but for various reasons we do indeed know that this was exactly what must >have happened! (I don't care to bother blml with all the details) > >So in my opinion: If the players have filled in and signed their result >reports then the Director should not cancel any board without convincing >evidence that the board in fact was fouled when played. Even strong >suspicion is no longer sufficient. This is, of course, against normal TD principles, and it is not obvious why we should not rule following normal principles. In general TDs use their judgement to decide things they cannot prove. It is not obvious to me why this situation should be different. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From svenpran@online.no Sat Sep 11 08:27:21 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:27:21 +0200 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <7h5xUBfvplQBFwKa@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000101c497d0$c724b580$6900a8c0@WINXP> > David Stevenson ............... > >During the Norwegian Bridge Festival 2001 we=20 > >experienced a situation where some players=20 > >found another copy of a board they had just=20 > >played and compared the two copies. Then when > >returning the cards to their pockets they > >accidentally put some cards belonging to copy A > >into board B and vice versa. > > > >We didn't notice this "irregularity" (violation=20 > >of Law 7C) when it occurred but for various=20 > >reasons we do indeed know that this was exactly=20 > >what must have happened! (I don't care to bother > >blml with all the details) > > > >So in my opinion: If the players have filled in=20 > >and signed their result reports then the Director > >should not cancel any board without convincing > >evidence that the board in fact was fouled when=20 > >played. Even strong suspicion is no longer sufficient. >=20 > This is, of course, against normal TD principles, and it is not > obvious why we should not rule following normal principles. >=20 > In general TDs use their judgement to decide things they cannot prove. > It is not obvious to me why this situation should be different. Are you seriously claiming that "normal TD principles" ("of course" ???) include canceling a board for players who have reported that they played = it without errors, only because you believe that the board was fouled when = they played it although you cannot ignore the real possibility that the foul = was made later? (I do of course[sic!] not dispute canceling the board when there is no = doubt that it must have been fouled already when played). Sven From schuster@eduhi.at Sat Sep 11 09:14:47 2004 From: schuster@eduhi.at (Petrus Schuster OSB) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:14:47 +0200 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" Message-ID: South is declarer, and East leads face up. The TD is called, and when he arrives, North (a very experienced player) immediately says that he accepts the lead. Thereupon, South says she wants to spread her hand and have partner play it. PPs aside - what now? And under which Law? Regards, Petrus -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From svenpran@online.no Sat Sep 11 09:33:23 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:33:23 +0200 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c497da$02fb39e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Petrus Schuster OSB > South is declarer, and East leads face up. > The TD is called, and when he arrives, North (a very experienced = player) > immediately says that he accepts the lead. > Thereupon, South says she wants to spread her hand and have partner = play > it. > PPs aside - what now? And under which Law? > Regards, > Petrus 1: Law 54A - North becomes declarer=20 2 (After play is completed!) Laws 43A1(c) and 72B1: Dummy has violated law 43A1(c) and the Director must judge whether North/South has possibly gained from North being the declarer. This = could be the case for instance if North is a better player than South or if the = lead actually made by East favours North/South (and many other = possibilities). The Director must also judge whether North "could have known" that his intervention "could" work to his benefit, and if so he shall adjust the score on that board (taking away this gain from North/South). Regards Sven From blml@blakjak.com Sat Sep 11 13:22:59 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:22:59 +0100 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: <000101c497d0$c724b580$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <7h5xUBfvplQBFwKa@blakjak.demon.co.uk> <000101c497d0$c724b580$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: Sven Pran wrote >> David Stevenson >............... >> >During the Norwegian Bridge Festival 2001 we >> >experienced a situation where some players >> >found another copy of a board they had just >> >played and compared the two copies. Then when >> >returning the cards to their pockets they >> >accidentally put some cards belonging to copy A >> >into board B and vice versa. >> > >> >We didn't notice this "irregularity" (violation >> >of Law 7C) when it occurred but for various >> >reasons we do indeed know that this was exactly >> >what must have happened! (I don't care to bother >> >blml with all the details) >> > >> >So in my opinion: If the players have filled in >> >and signed their result reports then the Director >> >should not cancel any board without convincing >> >evidence that the board in fact was fouled when >> >played. Even strong suspicion is no longer sufficient. >> >> This is, of course, against normal TD principles, and it is not >> obvious why we should not rule following normal principles. >> >> In general TDs use their judgement to decide things they cannot prove. >> It is not obvious to me why this situation should be different. > >Are you seriously claiming that "normal TD principles" ("of course" ???) >include canceling a board for players who have reported that they played it >without errors, only because you believe that the board was fouled when they >played it although you cannot ignore the real possibility that the foul was >made later? Of course. If you believe they played a board which the Laws require you to cancel then you cancel it. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From svenpran@online.no Sat Sep 11 13:38:11 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:38:11 +0200 Subject: [blml] Praha ruling LIT-FRA (1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c497fc$33c68ee0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > David Stevenson > Sven Pran wrote > >> David Stevenson > >............... > >> >During the Norwegian Bridge Festival 2001 we > >> >experienced a situation where some players > >> >found another copy of a board they had just > >> >played and compared the two copies. Then when > >> >returning the cards to their pockets they > >> >accidentally put some cards belonging to copy A > >> >into board B and vice versa. > >> > > >> >We didn't notice this "irregularity" (violation > >> >of Law 7C) when it occurred but for various > >> >reasons we do indeed know that this was exactly > >> >what must have happened! (I don't care to bother > >> >blml with all the details) > >> > > >> >So in my opinion: If the players have filled in > >> >and signed their result reports then the Director > >> >should not cancel any board without convincing > >> >evidence that the board in fact was fouled when > >> >played. Even strong suspicion is no longer sufficient. > >> > >> This is, of course, against normal TD principles, and it is not > >> obvious why we should not rule following normal principles. > >> > >> In general TDs use their judgement to decide things they cannot prove. > >> It is not obvious to me why this situation should be different. > > > >Are you seriously claiming that "normal TD principles" ("of course" ???) > >include canceling a board for players who have reported that they played > it > >without errors, only because you believe that the board was fouled when > they > >played it although you cannot ignore the real possibility that the foul > was > >made later? > > Of course. If you believe they played a board which the Laws require > you to cancel then you cancel it. I'm stunned. Now how would you consider the following appeal (signed by all four players)? "The board was not in any way destroyed when we played it" Sven From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Sat Sep 11 19:33:19 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:33:19 -0400 Subject: [blml] f Message-ID: <414344EF.6020906@cfa.harvard.edu> [Sorry for having messed up the subject line in this thread. The reason is it happened is too complicated to explain, involving unfriendly interaction between various computers and mail readers.] From: > As I understand the ruling of the WBFLC in the > particular connection it is that: > 1. The laws set out the correct procedures of the > game. > 2. Anything not specified in the laws is 'extraneous'. > The description is 'extraneous', not 'illegal'. > 3. Regulations made under the laws stand part of > the laws. Should, I hope, be uncontroversial so far. > 4. Anything extraneous is not part of the game and > may not therefore be used by a player as the basis for an > action. Its use, being unauthorized either in law or regulation, > may thus be ruled 'illegal'. But this I don't understand at all. We make judgments all the time about opponents' abilities or state of mind based on a whole variety of information. Also our own state of mind and partner's. (If I'm tired or think partner is, I'll just set the contract, but if we are both awake, I might try a delicate scientific auction.) I think we had the story of one expert who decided to finesse a different way on different days of the week. I can imagine using the board number as part of a "random number generator" to decide between two possible actions. It is hard to imagine that these widely-shared practices are illegal. Of course if there is a direct, visible connection between something extraneous and damage to an opponent, I expect we'll adjust the score. Spilling your coffee into an opponent's lap, hoping he will drop his cards face up, isn't likely to become a winning tactic any time soon. From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Sat Sep 11 19:42:29 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:42:29 -0400 Subject: [blml] Re: f In-Reply-To: <200409081617.i88GHiQ5019778@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409081617.i88GHiQ5019778@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <41434715.9070007@cfa.harvard.edu> SW>I don't think it would be bad to define normal procedure as all four SW>cards to one trick being turned over before the lead is made to the next SW>trick. > From: "WILLIAM SCHODER" > And also protect the newly proper leader from penalty such as the play of a > fifth card to a trick, etc. Be careful, it is very easy to open the doors > to the "bad" bridge lawyers (as opposed to the "good" ones) to set traps and > gain advantages. Ah, the welcome voice of experience. Reminds me of the First Law of Ecology: "You can't do only one thing." Once a problem with some proposed language is recognized, it can usually be fixed, but it can be very hard to recognize problems and impossible in one's own writing. I'm supposed to be a pretty good writer in my professional life, and I'm still embarrassed by some of the things I've written in drafts. Fortunately, my professional writing is subject to careful review by other people, and I don't think any of the serious blunders has ever made it into a final version. From schuster@eduhi.at Sat Sep 11 21:18:46 2004 From: schuster@eduhi.at (Petrus Schuster OSB) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:18:46 +0200 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" In-Reply-To: <000501c497da$02fb39e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000501c497da$02fb39e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:33:23 +0200, Sven Pran wrote: >> Petrus Schuster OSB >> South is declarer, and East leads face up. >> The TD is called, and when he arrives, North (a very experienced player) >> immediately says that he accepts the lead. >> Thereupon, South says she wants to spread her hand and have partner play >> it. >> PPs aside - what now? And under which Law? >> Regards, >> Petrus > > 1: Law 54A - North becomes declarer > > 2 (After play is completed!) Laws 43A1(c) and 72B1: > Dummy has violated law 43A1(c) and the Director must judge whether > North/South has possibly gained from North being the declarer. This > could be > the case for instance if North is a better player than South or if the > lead > actually made by East favours North/South (and many other possibilities). > > The Director must also judge whether North "could have known" that his > intervention "could" work to his benefit, and if so he shall adjust the > score on that board (taking away this gain from North/South). > L 12A1 is IMO applicable for a violation of 43A1 (c) - but that is where the problem starts: How do you figure out an assAS? And you cannot of course give an artAS. Regards, Petrus -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From aykwqrnlknahpo@yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 23:05:35 2004 From: aykwqrnlknahpo@yahoo.com (Antoine Guidry) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:05:35 -0700 Subject: [blml] re[20]: Message-ID: <20040911211811.53C3368C@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030906070607010804000004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

whats going on Yes, of course. Review Study: Most still not

Maps Chrono Cross

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he accepts the lead. > >> Thereupon, South says she wants to spread her hand and have partner > play > >> it. > >> PPs aside - what now? And under which Law? > >> Regards, > >> Petrus > > > > 1: Law 54A - North becomes declarer > > > > 2 (After play is completed!) Laws 43A1(c) and 72B1: > > Dummy has violated law 43A1(c) and the Director must judge whether > > North/South has possibly gained from North being the declarer. This > > could be > > the case for instance if North is a better player than South or if = the > > lead > > actually made by East favours North/South (and many other > possibilities). > > > > The Director must also judge whether North "could have known" that = his > > intervention "could" work to his benefit, and if so he shall adjust = the > > score on that board (taking away this gain from North/South). > > > L 12A1 is IMO applicable for a violation of 43A1 (c) - > but that is where the problem starts: > How do you figure out an assAS? And you cannot of course give an = artAS. Exactly, but whenever possible you let the board be played and then if necessary use L12A1 as basis for awarding an assigned adjusted score afterwards. Nothing prevents the board to be played "normally" after = North's violation of L43A1(c). Just as I wrote above: You let the board be played according to L54A and then after play is completed you judge whether the score should be = adjusted. OK I could have included L12A1 together with my references to L43A1(c) = and L72B1, does this make much difference? Regards Sven From schuster@eduhi.at Sun Sep 12 19:20:51 2004 From: schuster@eduhi.at (Petrus Schuster OSB) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:20:51 +0200 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" In-Reply-To: References: <000b01c4984d$096452d0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message ------- From: "Petrus Schuster OSB" To: "Sven Pran" Subject: Re: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:07:15 +0200 On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:16:50 +0200, Sven Pran wrote: >> Petrus Schuster OSB > ............. >> >> South is declarer, and East leads face up. >> >> The TD is called, and when he arrives, North (a very experienced >> player) >> >> immediately says that he accepts the lead. >> >> Thereupon, South says she wants to spread her hand and have partner >> play >> >> it. >> >> PPs aside - what now? And under which Law? >> >> Regards, >> >> Petrus >> > >> > 1: Law 54A - North becomes declarer >> > >> > 2 (After play is completed!) Laws 43A1(c) and 72B1: >> > Dummy has violated law 43A1(c) and the Director must judge whether >> > North/South has possibly gained from North being the declarer. This >> > could be >> > the case for instance if North is a better player than South or if the >> > lead >> > actually made by East favours North/South (and many other >> possibilities). >> > >> > The Director must also judge whether North "could have known" that his >> > intervention "could" work to his benefit, and if so he shall adjust >> the >> > score on that board (taking away this gain from North/South). >> > >> L 12A1 is IMO applicable for a violation of 43A1 (c) - >> but that is where the problem starts: >> How do you figure out an assAS? And you cannot of course give an artAS. > > Exactly, but whenever possible you let the board be played and then if > necessary use L12A1 as basis for awarding an assigned adjusted score > afterwards. Nothing prevents the board to be played "normally" after > North's > violation of L43A1(c). > > Just as I wrote above: You let the board be played according to L54A and > then after play is completed you judge whether the score should be > adjusted. > OK I could have included L12A1 together with my references to L43A1(c) > and > L72B1, does this make much difference? > None at all. But while 12C2 (or 12C3) can be managed in an end position with few choices, it is not really practicable for the TD carefully to construct two complete play sequences for the whole hand (for the "most favourable result ... likely" and the "most unfavourable result ... at all probable" at each junction in the decision tree). And it is not really desirable given that it would have been easy to have South actually play the hand to the best of her and the opponents' ability - except that the Laws no longer provide for that. Regards, Petrus (Sorry, Sven, for the duplication.) -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From svenpran@online.no Sun Sep 12 20:01:34 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:01:34 +0200 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c498fa$ec751ac0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Petrus Schuster OSB > > ............. > >> >> South is declarer, and East leads face up. > >> >> The TD is called, and when he arrives, North (a very experienced > >> player) > >> >> immediately says that he accepts the lead. > >> >> Thereupon, South says she wants to spread her hand and have = partner > >> play > >> >> it. > >> >> PPs aside - what now? And under which Law? > >> >> Regards, > >> >> Petrus > >> > > >> > 1: Law 54A - North becomes declarer > >> > > >> > 2 (After play is completed!) Laws 43A1(c) and 72B1: > >> > Dummy has violated law 43A1(c) and the Director must judge = whether > >> > North/South has possibly gained from North being the declarer. = This > >> > could be > >> > the case for instance if North is a better player than South or = if > the > >> > lead > >> > actually made by East favours North/South (and many other > >> possibilities). > >> > > >> > The Director must also judge whether North "could have known" = that > his > >> > intervention "could" work to his benefit, and if so he shall = adjust > >> the > >> > score on that board (taking away this gain from North/South). > >> > > >> L 12A1 is IMO applicable for a violation of 43A1 (c) - > >> but that is where the problem starts: > >> How do you figure out an assAS? And you cannot of course give an = artAS. > > > > Exactly, but whenever possible you let the board be played and then = if > > necessary use L12A1 as basis for awarding an assigned adjusted score > > afterwards. Nothing prevents the board to be played "normally" after > > North's > > violation of L43A1(c). > > > > Just as I wrote above: You let the board be played according to L54A = and > > then after play is completed you judge whether the score should be > > adjusted. > > OK I could have included L12A1 together with my references to = L43A1(c) > > and > > L72B1, does this make much difference? > > > None at all. > But while 12C2 (or 12C3) can be managed in an end position with few > choices, it is not really practicable for the TD carefully to = construct > two complete play sequences for the whole hand (for the "most = favourable > result ... likely" and the "most unfavourable result ... at all = probable" > at each junction in the decision tree). And it is not really desirable > given that it would have been easy to have South actually play the = hand to > the best of her and the opponents' ability - except that the Laws no > longer provide for that. >=20 > Regards, > Petrus >=20 > (Sorry, Sven, for the duplication.) OK, no worry. (I had this sent personally to me instead of to blml so I = made my comment directly to Petrus). This is what I wrote in reply: It is an important part of the Director's job to judge whether an irregularity by a player has damaged opponents and if so make the = necessary adjustments to restore equity. Let me add that when South (in this case) is a very inexperienced = player, almost a trainee, then I shall be much more lenient and allow = occurrences that I normally would not allow without adjustments! Regards Sven From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Sun Sep 12 22:57:38 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:57:38 -0400 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" Message-ID: <4144C652.4060908@cfa.harvard.edu> From: "Sven Pran" > 2 (After play is completed!) Laws 43A1(c) and 72B1: > Dummy has violated law 43A1(c) and the Director must judge whether > North/South has possibly gained from North being the declarer. While this looks right to me, I think Sven might also have mentioned L10B and 10C. South is entitled to be informed of the possibility of an adjusted score _before_ she chooses her option after the OLOOT. In practice, this will usually solve the problem Petrus' raises. From svenpran@online.no Sun Sep 12 23:41:39 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:41:39 +0200 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" In-Reply-To: <4144C652.4060908@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <001001c49919$ab1097c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Steve Willner > From: "Sven Pran" > > 2 (After play is completed!) Laws 43A1(c) and 72B1: > > Dummy has violated law 43A1(c) and the Director must judge whether > > North/South has possibly gained from North being the declarer. >=20 > While this looks right to me, I think Sven might also have mentioned > L10B and 10C. South is entitled to be informed of the possibility of = an > adjusted score _before_ she chooses her option after the OLOOT. In > practice, this will usually solve the problem Petrus' raises. This is correct provided we still allow South his/her choice under Law = 54 after North has violated Laws 43A1(c) and 10C2.=20 I am not so sure that it can be a correct ruling to let South keep all his/her rights under Law 54 after North's violation. However the laws = have as far as I can see no advice to the Director for this situation. But whatever we rule we must in any case (after the play) judge the possibility of opponents having been damaged by the violation and if so = also assess the extent of such damage. Regards Sven From t.kooyman@worldonline.nl Mon Sep 13 14:25:24 2004 From: t.kooyman@worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:25:24 +0200 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" References: <001001c49919$ab1097c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <006401c49996$73f5cfd0$61fcf0c3@LNV> This is correct provided we still allow South his/her choice under Law 54 after North has violated Laws 43A1(c) and 10C2. I am not so sure that it can be a correct ruling to let South keep all his/her rights under Law 54 after North's violation. However the laws have as far as I can see no advice to the Director for this situation. But whatever we rule we must in any case (after the play) judge the possibility of opponents having been damaged by the violation and if so also assess the extent of such damage. Regards Sven ((((((((( I think that we can solve this problem using the general principles laid down in the laws. South has UI which she can't use, meaning that her choice will not be accepted if it is suggested and if she has a LA, in case the opponents are damaged. (Isn't such choice related to play?) And then this case is easy: which weak lady player will not let her strong partner play the board? No LA. ton )))))))) From B.Schelen@IAE.NL Mon Sep 13 16:12:51 2004 From: B.Schelen@IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:12:51 +0200 Subject: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" References: <001001c49919$ab1097c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <001301c499a4$6a064aa0$06053dd4@c6l8v1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sven Pran" To: "blml" Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 12:41 AM Subject: RE: [blml] OLOOT "accepted" > Steve Willner > From: "Sven Pran" > > 2 (After play is completed!) Laws 43A1(c) and 72B1: > > Dummy has violated law 43A1(c) and the Director must judge whether > > North/South has possibly gained from North being the declarer. > > While this looks right to me, I think Sven might also have mentioned > L10B and 10C. South is entitled to be informed of the possibility of an > adjusted score _before_ she chooses her option after the OLOOT. In > practice, this will usually solve the problem Petrus' raises. This is correct provided we still allow South his/her choice under Law 54 after North has violated Laws 43A1(c) and 10C2. I am not so sure that it can be a correct ruling to let South keep all his/her rights under Law 54 after North's violation. However the laws have as far as I can see no advice to the Director for this situation. But whatever we rule we must in any case (after the play) judge the possibility of opponents having been damaged by the violation and if so also assess the extent of such damage. > > > Yes there is, Law72B1 will do. Ben From nistler@attbi.com Tue Sep 14 06:29:25 2004 From: nistler@attbi.com (Michael Nistler) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:29:25 -0700 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <414344EF.6020906@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <414681B4.92736B4C@attbi.com> Under what circumstance might you apply L73D1 (assuming the pause might later affect the Logical Alternatives of their partner)? 1. P - (P) - ... 20 second hesitation 2. P - (1D) - ... 20 second hesitation 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid warning) 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation If any, what other factors (player expertise, slow bid reputation, etc) would you weigh in your decision? Regards, Michael From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 14 09:00:50 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:00:50 +0200 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <414681B4.92736B4C@attbi.com> Message-ID: <000101c49a30$f390b030$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Michael Nistler > Under what circumstance might you apply L73D1 (assuming the pause > might later affect the Logical Alternatives of their partner)? > > 1. P - (P) - ... 20 second hesitation > > 2. P - (1D) - ... 20 second hesitation > > 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid warning) > > 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation All of them (pending local regulations). WTP? > If any, what other factors (player expertise, slow bid reputation, etc) > would you weigh in your decision? I am generally very lenient with inexperienced players. A notoriously slow player might face problems with regulations if he causes conflicts with the time schedule for the event. Regards Sven From wayne.burrows@xtra.co.nz Tue Sep 14 12:39:22 2004 From: wayne.burrows@xtra.co.nz (Wayne Burrows) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:39:22 +1200 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <000101c49a30$f390b030$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <001101c49a4f$7abc2120$0401010a@Desktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-admin@rtflb.org [mailto:blml-admin@rtflb.org] On > Behalf Of Sven Pran > Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2004 8:01 p.m. > To: blml > Subject: RE: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations > > > > Michael Nistler > > Under what circumstance might you apply L73D1 (assuming the pause > > might later affect the Logical Alternatives of their partner)? > > > > 1. P - (P) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > 2. P - (1D) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid warning) > > > > 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation > > All of them (pending local regulations). WTP? > > > If any, what other factors (player expertise, slow bid > reputation, etc) > > would you weigh in your decision? > > I am generally very lenient with inexperienced players. What is your definition of inexperienced player? Are you lenient with insufficient bids and revokes too? Wayne > > A notoriously slow player might face problems with > regulations if he causes > conflicts with the time schedule for the event. > > Regards Sven > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 14 13:09:24 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:09:24 +0200 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <001101c49a4f$7abc2120$0401010a@Desktop> Message-ID: <000901c49a53$ad278d30$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Wayne Burrows > > > Michael Nistler > > > Under what circumstance might you apply L73D1 (assuming the pause > > > might later affect the Logical Alternatives of their partner)? > > > > > > 1. P - (P) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > > > 2. P - (1D) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > > > 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid warning) > > > > > > 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation > > > > All of them (pending local regulations). WTP? > > > > > If any, what other factors (player expertise, slow bid > > reputation, etc) > > > would you weigh in your decision? > > > > I am generally very lenient with inexperienced players. >=20 > What is your definition of inexperienced player? Typically a player who began learning bridge during the last couple of = years or so.=20 The actual judgment on how lenient I am going to be depends very much on = my own impression of the player in question and the actual circumstances, = and also a lot of what is customary within the environment.=20 =20 > Are you lenient with insufficient bids and revokes too? No, I am lenient on where I draw the tolerance line in matters of = judgment, not in matters of applying rigid laws. Those are entirely different = matters. When you ask a question like this I should like to know what your = definition of an inexperienced player is. 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From mfrench1@san.rr.com Tue Sep 14 21:02:36 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin L. French) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:02:36 -0700 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <000901c49a53$ad278d30$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <000a01c49a95$c82be120$6701a8c0@marvin> From: "Sven Pran" > Wayne Burrows > > > Michael Nistler > > > Under what circumstance might you apply L73D1 (assuming the pause > > > might later affect the Logical Alternatives of their partner)? > > > > > > 1. P - (P) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > > > 2. P - (1D) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > > > 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid warning) > > > > > > 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation > > > > All of them (pending local regulations). WTP? > > > > > If any, what other factors (player expertise, slow bid > > reputation, etc) > > > would you weigh in your decision? > > > > I am generally very lenient with inexperienced players. > > What is your definition of inexperienced player? Typically a player who began learning bridge during the last couple of years or so. The actual judgment on how lenient I am going to be depends very much on my own impression of the player in question and the actual circumstances, and also a lot of what is customary within the environment. [mlf] I hope you will at least ask the player to think a while before passing even when having no problem. L73D1 only states what is desirable; it's L73B1 that governs this behavior. Hesitating before taking the partnership's first action at a low level usually doesn't convey useful information (so no L73D1), but the action may be accompanied by some facial communication that does. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, CA From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 14 21:47:46 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:47:46 +0200 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <000a01c49a95$c82be120$6701a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <000501c49a9c$16ffe020$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Marvin L. French ........... > > > > Under what circumstance might you apply L73D1 (assuming the = pause > > > > might later affect the Logical Alternatives of their partner)? > > > > > > > > 1. P - (P) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > > > > > 2. P - (1D) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > > > > > 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid = warning) > > > > > > > > 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation > > > > > > All of them (pending local regulations). WTP? > > > > > > > If any, what other factors (player expertise, slow bid > > > reputation, etc) > > > > would you weigh in your decision? > > > > > > I am generally very lenient with inexperienced players. > > > > What is your definition of inexperienced player? >=20 > Typically a player who began learning bridge during the last=20 > couple of years or so. >=20 > The actual judgment on how lenient I am going to be depends=20 > very much on my own impression of the player in question and > the actual circumstances, and also a lot of what is customary > within the environment. >=20 > [mlf] I hope you will at least ask the player to think a while > before passing even when having no problem. Why? 20 to 30 seconds are a lot more than "a while"? (See the tabulation above which started this thread above). We sure teach all players that it is never wrong to think when you feel = you need it in Bridge, but we also teach them that variation in tempo may = give partner information so that he must take every precaution not placing himself in a position where he can be suspected (accused) of having made = use of such information. Sven From wayne.burrows@xtra.co.nz Tue Sep 14 22:11:49 2004 From: wayne.burrows@xtra.co.nz (Wayne Burrows) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:11:49 +1200 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <000901c49a53$ad278d30$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <000001c49a9f$75f22ea0$0401010a@Desktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-admin@rtflb.org [mailto:blml-admin@rtflb.org] On > Behalf Of Sven Pran > Sent: Wednesday, 15 September 2004 12:09 a.m. > To: blml > Subject: RE: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations > > > > Wayne Burrows > > > > Michael Nistler > > > > Under what circumstance might you apply L73D1 (assuming > the pause > > > > might later affect the Logical Alternatives of their partner)? > > > > > > > > 1. P - (P) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > > > > > 2. P - (1D) - ... 20 second hesitation > > > > > > > > 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip > bid warning) > > > > > > > > 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation > > > > > > All of them (pending local regulations). WTP? > > > > > > > If any, what other factors (player expertise, slow bid > > > reputation, etc) > > > > would you weigh in your decision? > > > > > > I am generally very lenient with inexperienced players. > > > > What is your definition of inexperienced player? > > Typically a player who began learning bridge during the last > couple of years > or so. > > The actual judgment on how lenient I am going to be depends > very much on my > own impression of the player in question and the actual > circumstances, and > also a lot of what is customary within the environment. > > > Are you lenient with insufficient bids and revokes too? > > No, I am lenient on where I draw the tolerance line in > matters of judgment, > not in matters of applying rigid laws. Those are entirely > different matters. > > When you ask a question like this I should like to know what > your definition > of an inexperienced player is. Inexperience is relative. I don't have a definition. Perhaps more importantly the laws do not distinguish. Certainly the laws do not distinguish when ruling on hesitations. I do not think that showing favouritism to a group of players or an individual is within the proper powers of a tournament director. My experience is that it is best to educate players regarding the laws before they develop bad habits. And that a penalty or losing a good result when they have unfairly taken advantage of inappropriately transferred information is a good way to get a lesson. It is certainly a lesson that they will remember which is something that cannot be said for recidivist experienced hesitators who have been allowed to get away with repeated infractions. IMO these people, of which there are some locally, are the product of leniancy on inexperienced hesitators. Wayne > > Sven > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 14 22:37:38 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:37:38 +0200 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <000001c49a9f$75f22ea0$0401010a@Desktop> Message-ID: <000601c49aa3$0ea704b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Wayne Burrows ................... > > The actual judgment on how lenient I am going to be depends > > very much on my > > own impression of the player in question and the actual > > circumstances, and > > also a lot of what is customary within the environment. > > > > > Are you lenient with insufficient bids and revokes too? > > > > No, I am lenient on where I draw the tolerance line in > > matters of judgment, > > not in matters of applying rigid laws. Those are entirely > > different matters. > > > > When you ask a question like this I should like to know what > > your definition > > of an inexperienced player is. >=20 > Inexperience is relative. I don't have a definition. Perhaps > more importantly the laws do not distinguish. Certainly the > laws do not distinguish when ruling on hesitations. And this is where you are wrong. All applicable laws on "variation in = tempo" (which is the formal description of the situation commonly known as "hesitation") include in some way "if the Director considers that an infraction of law has resulted in damage". The Director may very well "consider" that the same "variation in tempo" = by two different players results in damage in one case but not in the other = for instance simply because of the different classes of players involved.=20 Beginners often need to consider for a long time where the more = experienced players instinctively know what to do almost instantly.=20 >=20 > I do not think that showing favouritism to a group of players > or an individual is within the proper powers of a tournament > director. >=20 > My experience is that it is best to educate players regarding > the laws before they develop bad habits. And that a penalty or > losing a good result when they have unfairly taken advantage > of inappropriately transferred information is a good way to > get a lesson. >=20 > It is certainly a lesson that they will remember which is something > that cannot be said for recidivist experienced hesitators who have > been allowed to get away with repeated infractions. IMO these people, > of which there are some locally, are the product of leniancy on > inexperienced hesitators. Of course when an inexperienced player intentionally takes advantage of = for instance partner's variation in tempo we tell him why that is illegal = and adjust the board correspondingly. This is not what I discuss. But when you would apply Law 72B1 (the "could have known" law) against = an experienced player I find surprisingly often that this is not the right medicine for a novice.=20 We teach him, but we do not flog him. Sven =20 From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Wed Sep 15 08:55:43 2004 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:55:43 +0100 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <000601c49aa3$0ea704b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <002a01c49afe$b43688a0$0100007f@yourtkrv58tbs0> grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] ********************************* ' Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold, Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world." ['The Second Coming'] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sven Pran" To: "blml" Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:37 PM Subject: RE: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations < We teach him, but we do not flog him. Sven +=+ The greatest of our floggers probably does not even read this list any longer. +=+ From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Wed Sep 15 08:59:44 2004 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:59:44 +0100 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <000001c49a9f$75f22ea0$0401010a@Desktop> Message-ID: <002b01c49afe$b537f310$0100007f@yourtkrv58tbs0> grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] ********************************* ' Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold, Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world." ['The Second Coming'] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Burrows" To: "'blml'" Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: RE: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations > > My experience is that it is best to educate > players regarding the laws before they > develop bad habits. And that a penalty or > losing a good result when they have unfairly > taken advantage of inappropriately transferred > information is a good way to get a lesson. > > It is certainly a lesson that they will remember > which is something that cannot be said for > recidivist experienced hesitators who have > been allowed to get away with repeated > infractions. IMO these people, of which there > are some locally, are the product of leniancy > on inexperienced hesitators. > > Wayne > > Sven < +=+ Once again I have the feeling that a thread is running into the sand. +=+ From johnson@CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca Wed Sep 15 11:21:14 2004 From: johnson@CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca (Ron Johnson) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <000001c49a9f$75f22ea0$0401010a@Desktop> from "Wayne Burrows" at Sep 15, 2004 09:11:49 AM Message-ID: <200409151021.i8FALE3F013984@athena.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> Wayne Burrows writes: > > Inexperience is relative. I don't have a definition. Perhaps > more importantly the laws do not distinguish. Certainly the > laws do not distinguish when ruling on hesitations. Of course they do. It's not illegal to hesitate. It's an infraction to use any information transmitted by the tempo breaks. Inexperienced players don't have a regular tempo and their hesitations don't show anything beyond general anxiety. They also have no judgement. They couldn't transmit that they're minimum or maximum for a sequence. They don't know. Anybody who thinks they can tell anything from an inexperienced player's tempo hasn't played with an inexperienced player recently. From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Wed Sep 15 14:40:24 2004 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:40:24 +0100 Subject: [blml] Systems policy References: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> Message-ID: <002901c49b29$be7e9e30$389787d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] ********************************* ' Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold, Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world." ['The Second Coming'] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" To: "Konrad Ciborowski" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 11:10 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Systems policy > On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Konrad Ciborowski wrote: > > > > > Hi gang, > > > > I need a translation from English to plain > > English of a sentence from WBF/EBL systems > > policy which is: > > > > > > +---------------- > > Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or > > three level that may by agreement be made > > with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. > > +---------------- > > +=+ The key significance here is that "one of the suits" refers back, correctly in English grammar, to the two suits already defined - i.e. the two suits to which the two-suited bid relates. Thus the two-suits shown by the bid must each comprise four or more cards. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From nistler@attbi.com Wed Sep 15 18:43:34 2004 From: nistler@attbi.com (Michael Nistler) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:43:34 -0700 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <000901c49a53$ad278d30$6900a8c0@WINXP> <000a01c49a95$c82be120$6701a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <41487F46.90F43730@attbi.com> Grattan Endicott wrote: > > +=+ Once again I have the feeling that a thread > is running into the sand. +=+ Grattan and Marvin, yes, I hoped the thread would focus on different hesitation scenarios, but I made the fatal mistake inquiring about player factors so I get what I deserve. IMHO, I did find a grain of wheat in the chaff. Marvin French seemed to "hit the ball out of the park" with his response: Hesitating before taking the partnership's first action at a low level usually doesn't convey useful information (so no L73D1), but the action may be accompanied by some facial communication that does. Personally, I would show more leniency to these scenarios: 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid warning) 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation Warm Regards, Michael From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 15 19:12:00 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:12:00 +0200 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <41487F46.90F43730@attbi.com> Message-ID: <000301c49b4f$7f36dc80$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Michael Nistler ............... > Personally, I would show more leniency to these scenarios: > > 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid warning) > > 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation 30 seconds are a lot of time. Had you said 10 or 15 seconds I would have agreed, especially in case 3. Sven From NoemiDardis@cris.com Wed Sep 15 23:48:30 2004 From: NoemiDardis@cris.com (Jaleesa Kennison) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:48:30 -0100 Subject: [blml] Re: Just take a look Message-ID: The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two = Senators from each state, chosen by the legislature thereof.=20



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?q9svYHquR.xPIqqCPK">Discontinue= Editors of scientific journals, quarrelling with believers in the supernat= ural, spilled seas of ink during this memorable campaign, some even drawin= g blood; for from the sea-serpent they came to direct personalities! He ev= en avoided the subject, which I one day thought it my duty to press upon h= im!=20 From nistler@attbi.com Wed Sep 15 23:50:14 2004 From: nistler@attbi.com (Michael Nistler) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:50:14 -0700 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <000301c49b4f$7f36dc80$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <4148C726.C6BAE26E@attbi.com> Sven Pran wrote: > > Michael Nistler > ............... > > Personally, I would show more leniency to these scenarios: > > > > 3. P - (2D) - ... 30 second hesitation (no skip bid warning) > > > > 4. (P) - P - (P) - ... 30 second hesitation > > 30 seconds are a lot of time. Had you said 10 or 15 seconds I would have > agreed, especially in case 3. > > Sven Well, in scenario 2 assuming 2D was weak and should have used a stop card (ACBL land reg 953-102, 10 second rule - see Ch 12.A.3, Part D), the third seat bidder must wait "for a suitable interval (about 10 seconds)". I suspect many would weigh in favor of the third seat bidder, granting additional time to consider RHOs bid (perhaps a convention). Michael From t.kooyman@worldonline.nl Thu Sep 16 10:02:55 2004 From: t.kooyman@worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:02:55 +0200 Subject: [blml] Systems policy References: <001501c494c0$63c96070$c25f1d53@kocurzak> <002901c49b29$be7e9e30$389787d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> Message-ID: <002e01c49bcb$f9ccc730$bce9f1c3@LNV> > > > > > > Hi gang, > > > > > > I need a translation from English to plain > > > English of a sentence from WBF/EBL systems > > > policy which is: > > > > > > > > > +---------------- > > > Any 'weak' two-suited bids at the two or > > > three level that may by agreement be made > > > with three cards or fewer in one of the suits. > > > +---------------- > > > > +=+ The key significance here is that "one of the > suits" refers back, correctly in English grammar, > to the two suits already defined - i.e. the two > suits to which the two-suited bid relates. > Thus the two-suits shown by the bid must each > comprise four or more cards. > ~ Grattan ~ +=+ This is a nice examople of the meaning of the word 'agreement'. Yes, normally a three card holding is not considered to be a suit in a two suited hand. So the question is a good one, why do we need such regulation? Because players are inventive. 2H and 2S are very popular opening calls in the Netherlands showing exactly 5 cards in the opening call and at least 4 cards in one of the minors, below opening strength. A two-suited bid. But players using this call soon discovered that bidding it without this minor, in third seat for example, had a good preemptive efffect. And they explained such call as a deviation of their agreements. Well, it isn't. Starting doing so there is an implicit agreement at the second time it happens. This regulation tells us that such an agreement is a brown sticker convention, with restrictions for the use of it. In my federation TD's have the instruction not to accept statements trying to tell that this really was the first time it happened. Or, more formally, this deviation is so obvious to find that even at the first time it is used the conditions for an implicit agreement are fulfilled. ton From mfrench1@san.rr.com Sun Sep 19 16:07:55 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin L. French) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:07:55 -0700 Subject: [blml] test Message-ID: <000f01c49e5a$714c2f40$6701a8c0@marvin> Not getting BLML, just other mail. Marv From mfrench1@san.rr.com Sun Sep 19 17:04:03 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin L. French) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:04:03 -0700 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <000601c49aa3$0ea704b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <002901c49e62$48ab8380$6701a8c0@marvin> From: "Sven Pran" The Director may very well "consider" that the same "variation in tempo" by two different players results in damage in one case but not in the other for instance simply because of the different classes of players involved. Beginners often need to consider for a long time where the more experienced players instinctively know what to do almost instantly. MF: If beginners and the experienced were told that they must deliberate before taking any action, clear-cut or not, most UI problems would go away. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, CA From ZaidMai@bigplanet.com Sun Sep 19 22:16:39 2004 From: ZaidMai@bigplanet.com (Gideon Dannenberg) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:16:39 +0600 Subject: [blml] Enjoy :) Message-ID: <20040919203620.375CA6E7@rhubarb.custard.org> "Conseil," I called in an impatient voice?=20











discontinue >From the same cause, the idea of a floating hull of an enormous wreck was = given up!! Poor chance! but hope is so firmly rooted in the heart of man! = Moreover, there were two of us. The frigate passed at some distance from t= he Marquesas and the Sandwich Islands, crossed the tropic of Cancer, and m= ade for the China Seas.=20 From hnhrcta@hotmail.com Mon Sep 20 04:27:37 2004 From: hnhrcta@hotmail.com (Shelton Stahl) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:27:37 +0200 Subject: [blml] re [8]: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000308010106090508070007 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thank you Brad Pitt in 1884 ANALYSIS NYTimes

Christina Aguilera Outlook Express

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----- From: "Marvin L. French" To: "Anne Jones" Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [blml] test >I seem to have taken sole possession of BLML, I always wanted to do > that! Joan Gerard and Sven also got my BLML-addressed items. Very > strange - Marv > > > >> Mine has been very quiet too - I got 6 on 15th - one on 16th and > nothing >> then until your two today. >> Anne > > > From blml@blakjak.com Mon Sep 20 12:27:57 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:27:57 +0100 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <002901c49e62$48ab8380$6701a8c0@marvin> References: <000601c49aa3$0ea704b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> <002901c49e62$48ab8380$6701a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Marvin L. French wrote > >From: "Sven Pran" > >The Director may very well "consider" that the same "variation in tempo" >by >two different players results in damage in one case but not in the other >for >instance simply because of the different classes of players involved. > >Beginners often need to consider for a long time where the more >experienced >players instinctively know what to do almost instantly. > >MF: If beginners and the experienced were told that they must deliberate >before taking any action, clear-cut or not, most UI problems would go >away. Along with the players, no doubt. What we want here is to regulate a game of bridge, not to destroy a game of bridge. Let us say that on average each bidding sequence takes ten calls. That means there are 58 decisions per deal [ten calls plus 48 cards to be played while players still have a choice]. Let us make sure everyone pauses five seconds before each decision "to get rid of UI problems". That means that there is 290 seconds of thinking, or wasting time looking as though you are thinking. Nearly five minutes. Most of that is additional to what happens now - let us say you are adding four minutes of total boredom to each hand. Not a good solution, since there will still be slow actions. Ok, lets make it 20 seconds not 5 seconds. Then .... -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From Martin.Sinot@Micronas.com Mon Sep 20 17:13:55 2004 From: Martin.Sinot@Micronas.com (Sinot Martin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:13:55 +0200 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 Message-ID: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> Two cases (12C3 is allowed): 1) W N E S 1S ...pass 4S 5D dbl pass pass pass 5D one off. TD determines that 5D is not allowed, but cannot decide whether 4S makes 10 or 11 tricks (say, 50% each). What do you do? 2) South defends 4S. East misexplained something and 4S now makes. However, the winning defence is not easy to find, even without the infraction (again, say 50% each). What do you do? --=20 Martin Sinot martin.sinot at micronas.com From blml@blakjak.com Mon Sep 20 18:08:49 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:08:49 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: <0WJCZxWh6wTBFwhS@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Sinot Martin wrote >Two cases (12C3 is allowed): > >1) > >W N E S >1S ...pass 4S 5D >dbl pass pass pass > >5D one off. >TD determines that 5D is not allowed, >but cannot decide whether 4S makes 10 >or 11 tricks (say, 50% each). What do >you do? If you use "true weighting" then you give both sides 50% of NS-420 + 50% of NS-450 If you use "sympathetic weighting" then you give both sides 40% of NS-420 + 60% of NS-450 The WBF told people to use true weighting: the EBU and WBU tell their people to use sympathetic weighting. >2) > >South defends 4S. East misexplained something >and 4S now makes. However, the winning defence >is not easy to find, even without the infraction >(again, say 50% each). What do you do? If you use "true weighting" then you give both sides 50% of NS +50 + 50% of NS-420 If you use "sympathetic weighting" then you give both sides 60% of NS +50 + 40% of NS-420 -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From B.Schelen@IAE.NL Mon Sep 20 18:40:26 2004 From: B.Schelen@IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:40:26 +0200 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: <002401c49f39$be7c83c0$a9053dd4@c6l8v1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sinot Martin" To: "Bridge Laws (E-mail)" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 6:13 PM Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 Two cases (12C3 is allowed): 1) W N E S 1S ...pass 4S 5D dbl pass pass pass 5D one off. TD determines that 5D is not allowed, but cannot decide whether 4S makes 10 or 11 tricks (say, 50% each). What do you do? 2) South defends 4S. East misexplained something and 4S now makes. However, the winning defence is not easy to find, even without the infraction (again, say 50% each). What do you do? -- In team play: no problem In pairs: the pairs get provisionally Av+. After the current session ends there are two possibilities. If possible introduce in both cases an additional 0,5 score two times in the frequency charts. The pairs get half the matchpoints belonging to both scores. These matchpoints has to be inserted manually. In case the computerprogramme cannot handle this, introduce the score say +420 and note the matchpoints. After that the score is changed in +450. Both matchpoints are added and the pairs get half of the result. Again inserted manually. Ben From MAILER-DAEMON@lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net Mon Sep 20 19:33:19 2004 From: MAILER-DAEMON@lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:33:19 GMT Subject: [blml] Returned mail: see transcript for details Message-ID: <200409201833.i8KIXJv01749@lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net> This is a MIME-encapsulated message --i8KIXJv01749.1095705199/lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net The original message was received at Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:33:00 GMT from 82-33-172-93.cable.ubr06.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk [82.33.172.93] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 552 5.2.2 Over quota) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to lhuumdeph0.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net: >>> DATA <<< 552 5.2.2 Over quota 554 5.0.0 ... Service unavailable --i8KIXJv01749.1095705199/lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net Received-From-MTA: DNS; 82-33-172-93.cable.ubr06.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk Arrival-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:33:00 GMT Final-Recipient: RFC822; feedback@photoshot.com Action: failed Status: 5.2.2 Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 552 5.2.2 Over quota Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:33:19 GMT --i8KIXJv01749.1095705199/lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from photoshot.com (82-33-172-93.cable.ubr06.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk [82.33.172.93]) by lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id i8KIWwv01674 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:33:00 GMT Message-Id: <200409201833.i8KIWwv01674@lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net> From: blml@rtflb.org To: feedback@photoshot.com Subject: Re: Here is the document Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:33:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ------=_NextPart_000_0010_00005D06.000033DF-- --i8KIXJv01749.1095705199/lhuumsmtpgw3.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net-- From blml@blakjak.com Tue Sep 21 11:59:05 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:59:05 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: <002401c49f39$be7c83c0$a9053dd4@c6l8v1> References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> <002401c49f39$be7c83c0$a9053dd4@c6l8v1> Message-ID: Ben Schelen wrote >From: "Sinot Martin" >Two cases (12C3 is allowed): > >1) > >W N E S >1S ...pass 4S 5D >dbl pass pass pass > >5D one off. >TD determines that 5D is not allowed, >but cannot decide whether 4S makes 10 >or 11 tricks (say, 50% each). What do >you do? > > >2) > >South defends 4S. East misexplained something >and 4S now makes. However, the winning defence >is not easy to find, even without the infraction >(again, say 50% each). What do you do? > >-- >In team play: no problem >In pairs: the pairs get provisionally Av+. After the current session ends >there are two possibilities. >If possible introduce in both cases an additional 0,5 score two times in the >frequency charts. The pairs get half the matchpoints belonging to both >scores. These matchpoints has to be inserted manually. >In case the computerprogramme cannot handle this, introduce the score say >+420 and note the matchpoints. After that the score is changed in +450. Both >matchpoints are added and the pairs get half of the result. Again inserted >manually. As explained in my post it is not necessarily a question of 0.5, and I am not sure that there is no problem in team play! As for matchpoints hopefully this method will not be required with future software, but a Law 12C3 adjustment will just be entered and the program does the rest. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From t.kooyman@worldonline.nl Tue Sep 21 14:17:37 2004 From: t.kooyman@worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:17:37 +0200 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> <0WJCZxWh6wTBFwhS@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <003b01c49fdd$67e583a0$a3e7f1c3@LNV> > The WBF told people to use true weighting: the EBU and WBU tell their > people to use sympathetic weighting. > I am not aware of this difference and personally I support the idea to use sympathetic weighting, which is more in line with the ideas as described in 12C2. I even can think of incorporating 12C2 ideas in 12C3 by giving sympathatic weighting to the non-offenders and non complementary but still fair unsympathetic weighting to the offenders. ton From nistler@attbi.com Tue Sep 21 18:53:15 2004 From: nistler@attbi.com (Michael Nistler) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:53:15 -0700 Subject: [blml] L20 Again References: <3DBE6D2D.4080603@skynet.be> Message-ID: <41506A8A.1366747B@attbi.com> In ACBL land, the auction goes: 1C - (P) - 1N - (P); 4C - (P) - 4D - (P); 4H - (P) - 5N - (P); 6N - ? At this point, player in direct seat asks for a full description of each bid. Responder explains 4C is Gerber, Opener explains 4D is 1430 mini-max, Responder describes 4H is King ask, Opener explains 5N shows 1 King. At this point, the advanced player pass (holding no values and never an interest in making a call). Before passing out, Opener suggests direct seat opponent's not on lead should not ask for explanation of auction unless they intend to make a call. The opponent summons Director who recites L20 saying any player can ask for a bidding review at their turn (with provisio's regarding not targeting specific bid meanings). Fortunately, the auction is passed out and missing one King makes 7C or 7NT. One more bit of information. The direct seat opponent was aware that Declarer's auction was comprehensive and may have wished to ensure their novice partner was aware of bidding before making an opening lead. Do you agree with the Director or see possible UI here? If Declarer went down based on an inspired lead, how would you rule? Regards, Michael Nistler From mfrench1@san.rr.com Tue Sep 21 20:52:23 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin L. French) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:52:23 -0700 Subject: [blml] L20 Again References: <3DBE6D2D.4080603@skynet.be> <41506A8A.1366747B@attbi.com> Message-ID: <001901c4a014$83610460$6701a8c0@marvin> From: "Michael Nistler" > In ACBL land, the auction goes: > > 1C - (P) - 1N - (P); > 4C - (P) - 4D - (P); > 4H - (P) - 5N - (P); > 6N - ? > > At this point, player in direct seat asks for a full description of each > bid. > Responder explains 4C is Gerber, Opener explains 4D is 1430 mini-max, > Responder describes 4H is King ask, Opener explains 5N shows 1 King. > At this point, the advanced player pass (holding no values and never an > interest in making a call). Before passing out, Opener suggests direct > seat opponent's not on lead should not ask for explanation of auction > unless they intend to make a call. The opponent summons Director who > recites L20 saying any player can ask for a bidding review at their turn > (with provisio's regarding not targeting specific bid meanings). Nitpick: Actually L20F1 permits a request for a full explanation of the auction, not just a bidding review. > Fortunately, the auction is passed out and missing one King makes 7C > or 7NT. > > One more bit of information. The direct seat opponent was aware that > Declarer's auction was comprehensive and may have wished to ensure > their novice partner was aware of bidding before making an opening lead. If so, that is illegal, as affirmed by the WBFLC in its Lille meeting. > > Do you agree with the Director or see possible UI here? If Declarer > went down based on an inspired lead, how would you rule? No UI, as the entire auction with explanations is AI. Then, it would be impossible to determine whether the review assisted the opening leader (through "questions asked'). As long as the questioner has not shown special interest in one or more of the calls, that is. This business of questioning the auction in the passout position, with no interest in acting and partner on lead, can logically have only one purpose, which is to help partner. (Otherwise a player can wait until the face-down lead is made.) I wish the lawmakers would find a way to make this request illegal, with a stiff PP for violations. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, CA From mfrench1@san.rr.com Tue Sep 21 21:10:07 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin L. French) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:10:07 -0700 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> <0WJCZxWh6wTBFwhS@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <004a01c4a016$fd738eb0$6701a8c0@marvin> From: "David Stevenson" > Sinot Martin wrote > >Two cases (12C3 is allowed): > > > >1) > > > >W N E S > >1S ...pass 4S 5D > >dbl pass pass pass > > > >5D one off. > >TD determines that 5D is not allowed, > >but cannot decide whether 4S makes 10 > >or 11 tricks (say, 50% each). What do > >you do? > > If you use "true weighting" then you give both sides > > 50% of NS-420 > + 50% of NS-450 > Let's say it depends on locating a queen, with absolutely nothing to go on. Then the NOS is perhaps denied the championship that would have been theirs with a successful guess. If you're not going to use L12C2, which gives the NOS 450, why not flip a coin to determine the result? Could either side complain that the result is inequitable? L12C3 does not bar this approach, after all, in order "to do equity." Grattan should love it, as it restores the situation that existed before the irregularity occurred. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, CA From gesta@tiscali.co.uk Tue Sep 21 22:19:58 2004 From: gesta@tiscali.co.uk (gesta@tiscali.co.uk) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:19:58 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> <0WJCZxWh6wTBFwhS@blakjak.demon.co.uk> <003b01c49fdd$67e583a0$a3e7f1c3@LNV> Message-ID: <003b01c4a021$54c38080$a5a0403e@multivisionoem> Grattan Endicott To: Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Applying 12C3 > > The WBF told people to use true weighting: > > the EBU and WBU tell their people to use sympathetic > > weighting. > > > > > I am not aware of this difference and personally I support > the idea to use sympathetic weighting, which is more in > line with the ideas as described in 12C2. I even can think > of incorporating 12C2 ideas in 12C3 by giving sympathatic > weighting to the non-offenders and non complementary but > still fair unsympathetic weighting to the offenders. > > ton > +=+ I quote: " In the Olympiad at Maastricht the WBF Appeals Committee decided to assess a single adjusted score applicable to both sides and, if considered appropriate, apply separately a procedural penalty to the offending side." This is from the jurisprudence attached to the WBF Code of Practice for Appeals Committees. Elsewhere in this section, which is headed 'Assessing a weighted Score', after stating the objective of the WBF AC that the adjusted score should restore the balance of equity in the hand in the instant prior to the infraction, the CoP goes on to say that "policies and procedures in appeals committees are matters for regulation under Law 80G and each sponsoring organization may settle its approach to weighted score adjustments". When the WBF AC discussed the subject in Maastricht there was support for the view - which to the best of my recollection was expressed at the time by the CTD - that the score adjustment itself was not for the purpose of penalizing, should be distinguished from penalizing action and not used for that purpose. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From mfrench1@san.rr.com Tue Sep 21 22:46:22 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin L. French) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:46:22 -0700 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <000601c49aa3$0ea704b0$6900a8c0@WINXP> <002901c49e62$48ab8380$6701a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <005801c4a024$70111110$6701a8c0@marvin> From: "David Stevenson" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 4:27 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations > Marvin L. French wrote > > > >From: "Sven Pran" > > > >The Director may very well "consider" that the same "variation in tempo" > >by > >two different players results in damage in one case but not in the other > >for > >instance simply because of the different classes of players involved. > > > >Beginners often need to consider for a long time where the more > >experienced > >players instinctively know what to do almost instantly. > > > >MF: If beginners and the experienced were told that they must deliberate > >before taking any action, clear-cut or not, most UI problems would go > >away. > > Along with the players, no doubt. > > What we want here is to regulate a game of bridge, not to destroy a > game of bridge. Law 73D1: It is desirable, though not always required, for players to maintain steady tempo and unvarying manner. That is all I'm asking for. >Let us say that on average each bidding sequence takes ten calls. That > means there are 58 decisions per deal [ten calls plus 48 cards to be > played while players still have a choice]. Let us make sure everyone > pauses five seconds before each decision "to get rid of UI problems". > > That means that there is 290 seconds of thinking, or wasting time > looking as though you are thinking. Nearly five minutes. Most of that > is additional to what happens now - let us say you are adding four > minutes of total boredom to each hand. > > Not a good solution, since there will still be slow actions. Ok, lets > make it 20 seconds not 5 seconds. Then .... > You exaggerate the amount of time required to give the appearance of thinking about one's action. My partner and I do that all the time, no problem. Of course we may act fast (or very slow) in a situation when tempo variance does not create UI. As to the extended time, I do not know that bridge is supposed to be a fast game. If necessary in order to accommodate steady tempo, why not go to 16-minute two-board rounds, and eliminate the smoking breaks? Yes, there will still be tempo violations, but much fewer. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, CA From svenpran@online.no Tue Sep 21 23:28:07 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:28:07 +0200 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations In-Reply-To: <005801c4a024$70111110$6701a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <000301c4a02a$44ac0010$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Marvin L. French ............. > Law 73D1: It is desirable, though not always required, for players to > maintain steady tempo and unvarying manner. >=20 > That is all I'm asking for. And that is exactly what the law is: "desirable, though not always required". Uniform tempo is an ideal target, but we have to accept that this target cannot consistently be reached in real life. Forcing all decisions to be taken only after compulsory delays sufficient to meet the most demanding need is as David pointed out no solution at all. (Essentially this is = what the present STOP rules are about) > As to the extended time, I do not know that bridge is supposed to be a > fast game. If necessary in order to accommodate steady tempo, why not = go > to 16-minute two-board rounds, and eliminate the smoking breaks? I don't know what timing you are accustomed to but in Norway 16 minutes = (all inclusive) is the standard time allocated for each round when playing = two boards per round. (Breaks are commonly taken every 4 hours or so, = primarily for the purpose of having meals). (The formula is actually 7 minutes per board plus 2 minutes per round). =20 > Yes, there will still be tempo violations, but much fewer. I don't think that you can ever avoid tempo variations; the point is = that not all such variations create UI. This, and in case whether the UI has = been illegally used is for the Director to judge. =20 Sven From eivsmsioh@yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 01:00:58 2004 From: eivsmsioh@yahoo.com (Samantha Grimm) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:00:58 +0300 Subject: [blml] re [12] Message-ID: <20040921231559.CD5DF5BD@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070705090201020601030002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

at the far side gossip I can't get through Wrong number

Net Cookie Recipes

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Wed Sep 22 00:24:00 2004 From: karel@esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:24:00 +0100 Subject: [blml] Chain of command In-Reply-To: <41506A8A.1366747B@attbi.com> Message-ID: Hi all A real quickie - from a worldwide bridge point of view where do all the bridge bodies fit in and is there a chain of command ? For instance from an irish point of view does it go local so, cbai(ireland), ebu (european bridge union), wbf with the wbf having the last say on any contenious issue ?? K. From karel@esatclear.ie Wed Sep 22 00:34:22 2004 From: karel@esatclear.ie (Karel) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:34:22 +0100 Subject: [blml] Pausing In-Reply-To: <001901c4a014$83610460$6701a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: I found this one interesting and stayed on the fence. Pairs N/S Vul North S AT H AKQxxxx D Jx C xx South S QJ9x H Txx D QT9x C AK Bidding S N 1D 2D%% Dbl 3C P P 4H P^^ P** 5C 5H P 6H all pass East lead the SK. result 6H+1. Any lead except a spade -1. ^^ Not 10 secs %% Ghestem spades and clubs ** Agreed on pause E/W maintained N didnt have a 5H bid and was helped by the pause. South said he would have bid 5H even if North doubled or passed. South almost moved over 4H's. Pass would have been forcing. S bid 6H as he felt if north could bid 5H pretty much all on his own, he must have controls in diamonds and spades and expected CAK to provide a discard or even 2 if N was void. Your ruling ... From blml@blakjak.com Wed Sep 22 00:40:13 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:40:13 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: <004a01c4a016$fd738eb0$6701a8c0@marvin> References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E648D@rama.micronas.com> <0WJCZxWh6wTBFwhS@blakjak.demon.co.uk> <004a01c4a016$fd738eb0$6701a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Marvin L. French wrote > >From: "David Stevenson" > >> Sinot Martin wrote >> >Two cases (12C3 is allowed): >> > >> >1) >> > >> >W N E S >> >1S ...pass 4S 5D >> >dbl pass pass pass >> > >> >5D one off. >> >TD determines that 5D is not allowed, >> >but cannot decide whether 4S makes 10 >> >or 11 tricks (say, 50% each). What do >> >you do? >> >> If you use "true weighting" then you give both sides >> >> 50% of NS-420 >> + 50% of NS-450 >> >Let's say it depends on locating a queen, with absolutely nothing to go >on. Then the NOS is perhaps denied the championship that would have been >theirs with a successful guess. > >If you're not going to use L12C2, which gives the NOS 450, why not flip >a coin to determine the result? Could either side complain that the >result is inequitable? L12C3 does not bar this approach, after all, in >order "to do equity." Grattan should love it, as it restores the >situation that existed before the irregularity occurred. On the other hand, perhaps we should run a game of bridge rather than fool around with childish games. Championships are not won on one board. Yes, you can say that restoring equity is undesirable. But there are many people who actually approve of restoring equity. L12C2 is not an equity Law: L12C3 is. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From mfrench1@san.rr.com Wed Sep 22 00:45:51 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin L. French) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:45:51 -0700 Subject: [blml] Third Seat Hesitations References: <000301c4a02a$44ac0010$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <001601c4a035$20e42530$6701a8c0@marvin> From: "Sven Pran" > Marvin L. French ............. > Law 73D1: It is desirable, though not always required, for players to > maintain steady tempo and unvarying manner. > > That is all I'm asking for. SP: And that is exactly what the law is: "desirable, though not always required". SP: Uniform tempo is an ideal target, but we have to accept that this target cannot consistently be reached in real life. Forcing all decisions to be taken only after compulsory delays sufficient to meet the most demanding need is as David pointed out no solution at all. (Essentially this is what the present STOP rules are about) MF: "The most demanding need"? I don't remember saying that. All I want is a reasonable consideration of one's hand before acting, nothing more. MF: I don't know how it is over there, but over here in other than high-level play, it is as though L73D1 did not exist. Can it really do harm to tell beginners about this law and ask that they do their best to follow it? > As to the extended time, I do not know that bridge is supposed to be a > fast game. If necessary in order to accommodate steady tempo, why not > go to 16-minute two-board rounds, and eliminate the smoking breaks? SP: I don't know what timing you are accustomed to but in Norway 16 minutes (all nclusive) is the standard time allocated for each round when playing two boards per round. (Breaks are commonly taken every 4 hours or so, primarily for the purpose of having meals). (The formula is actually 7 minutes per board plus 2 minutes per round). MF: ACBL is pretty standard at 15 minute rounds for two boards, and two five-minute breaks for the smokers during the session. I have seen 16-minute rounds for later sessions of an NABC+ championship, but I don't know if that is still the case. With most players bidding and defending fast when having no problem (even over a jump bid and usually ignoring a STOP card), 15 minutes is sufficient. > Yes, there will still be tempo violations, but much fewer. SP: I don't think that you can ever avoid tempo variations; the point is that not all such variations create UI. This, and in case whether the UI has been illegally used is for the Director to judge. MF: Agreed, and I don't think I have said anything to the contrary. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, CA From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Mon Sep 20 08:21:24 2004 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:21:24 +0100 Subject: [blml] test References: <000f01c49e5a$714c2f40$6701a8c0@marvin> <001901c49e6c$bfb19780$12330952@AnnesComputer> <001901c49e7f$aa9e41f0$6701a8c0@marvin> <002701c49ec5$a7eeaf80$12330952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <000401c4a035$58a166e0$45a287d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] ********************************* ' Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold, Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world." ['The Second Coming'] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Jones" To: "Marvin L. French" Cc: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [blml] test > Yup - you are in charge! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marvin L. French" > To: "Anne Jones" > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blml] test > > > >I seem to have taken sole possession of BLML, > > I always wanted to do that! Joan Gerard and > > Sven also got my BLML-addressed items. Very > > strange - Marv > > > > > > > >> Mine has been very quiet too - I got 6 on > >> 15th - one on 16th and nothing > >> then until your two today. > >> Anne > > +=+ Neither PC of mine, with different ISPs, has received anything more than you. Perhaps Henk has engaged a thought censor........ It cannot be that commentators with nothing to say are saying nothing? +=+ From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Wed Sep 22 01:41:45 2004 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 01:41:45 +0100 Subject: [blml] Chain of command References: Message-ID: <005701c4a03d$444c0b20$45a287d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] ********************************* " I didn't write the rules" "All the more reason not to play the game." ~ father's advice in 'The Bonfire of the Vanities'. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karel" To: "blml" Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:24 AM Subject: [blml] Chain of command > Hi all > > A real quickie - from a worldwide bridge point > of view where do all the bridge bodies fit in and > is there a chain of command ? For instance from an > irish point of view does it go local so, cbai(ireland), > ebu (european bridge union), wbf with the wbf > having the last say on any contenious issue ?? > > K. > +=+ There's no answer to that. NBOs are in direct membership of the WBF. For administrative purposes they are distributed into eight Zones, each a limb of the WBF. The statutes of the WBF require that its members agree to its Constitution and they are thus in theory bound by the powers that Constitution purports to assign and exercise. All theory - well, nearly all. The WBF acts by negotiation, compromise, persuasion and concession; its style is to govern only by consent of the governed. . ~ G ~ +=+ From siegmund@mosquitonet.com Wed Sep 22 03:04:00 2004 From: siegmund@mosquitonet.com (Gordon Bower) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:04:00 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, David Stevenson wrote: [about the 5DX case where 4S makes either 4 or 5] > fool around with childish games. > > Championships are not won on one board. Yes, you can say that > restoring equity is undesirable. But there are many people who actually > approve of restoring equity. L12C2 is not an equity Law: L12C3 is. Championships are not won on equity either. Average 58%, say, in every session you play, and you rank among the best. Have a 58% session, and your chance of winning a championship is nil. I don't think the coin-flip suggestion was intended to be taken all that seriously. But there is a real issue to be had here, the same one we've faced before: what is "equity"? Does that refer to your expected score on a board, or your expected chance of winning the match, or what, before the infraction occured? This isn't a problem confined to bridge. The best backgammon software has two different evaluation functions built into it - one for money games where each point is equally valuable, another for match games where the goal is to be first to a specified target. It is not rare for the right move to be different under the two methods. In a winner-take-all (or even winner-take-most) game, awarding someone a series of slightly-above-average results can indeed destroy his chance of emerging a winner. It occurs to me that there is some real merit in the idea of defining average plus (for everyone in the room who receives one) to equal the session average of the pair that wins the event. I suppose a similar notion could be concocted for imp games though I don't know how you'd handle knockouts. In the meantime I continue to count my blessings that I live where the original 5D-or-4S case is an absolutely textbook 450 ruling under 12C2. GRB From blml@blakjak.com Wed Sep 22 12:30:00 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:30:00 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gordon Bower wrote >On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, David Stevenson wrote: > >[about the 5DX case where 4S makes either 4 or 5] >> fool around with childish games. >> >> Championships are not won on one board. Yes, you can say that >> restoring equity is undesirable. But there are many people who actually >> approve of restoring equity. L12C2 is not an equity Law: L12C3 is. > >Championships are not won on equity either. Average 58%, say, in every >session you play, and you rank among the best. Have a 58% session, and >your chance of winning a championship is nil. > >I don't think the coin-flip suggestion was intended to be taken all that >seriously. But there is a real issue to be had here, the same one we've >faced before: what is "equity"? Does that refer to your expected score on >a board, or your expected chance of winning the match, or what, before the >infraction occured? This isn't a problem confined to bridge. The best >backgammon software has two different evaluation functions built into it - >one for money games where each point is equally valuable, another for >match games where the goal is to be first to a specified target. It is not >rare for the right move to be different under the two methods. >In a winner-take-all (or even winner-take-most) game, awarding someone a >series of slightly-above-average results can indeed destroy his chance of >emerging a winner. > >It occurs to me that there is some real merit in the idea of defining >average plus (for everyone in the room who receives one) to equal the >session average of the pair that wins the event. I suppose a similar >notion could be concocted for imp games though I don't know how you'd >handle knockouts. > >In the meantime I continue to count my blessings that I live where the >original 5D-or-4S case is an absolutely textbook 450 ruling under 12C2. It is harder to make rulings without L12C3, of course, a fact not often realised by people who do not have L12C3 available. The biggest advantage of L12C3, however, is that players like it. Thus it seems good for the game. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 22 12:55:30 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:55:30 +0200 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41516832.2020309@hdw.be> David Stevenson wrote: > > It is harder to make rulings without L12C3, of course, a fact not > often realised by people who do not have L12C3 available. > That may not necessarily be true, David. I'm only guessing as to why you wrote the above, but my guess is this: Sometimes it is difficult, without L12C3, to decide on 420 or 450. Whereas with L12C3, the problem is to give 60-40 weighing or 70-30, which has less of an impact and can therefore be deemed "easier". But if such is your reasoning, then you are wrong. If 450 is a possible outcome, then the L12C2 adjustment is easy. And if it is not, then the L12C3 adjustment is also 100% of 420. So I would not say it is harder to give L12C2 rulings. Infraction? yes; Damage? yes; best outcome = ruling. > The biggest advantage of L12C3, however, is that players like it. Thus > it seems good for the game. > That is absolutely true! -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From blml@blakjak.com Wed Sep 22 14:13:16 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:13:16 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: <41516832.2020309@hdw.be> References: <41516832.2020309@hdw.be> Message-ID: Herman De Wael wrote >David Stevenson wrote: > >> It is harder to make rulings without L12C3, of course, a fact not >>often realised by people who do not have L12C3 available. >> > >That may not necessarily be true, David. >I'm only guessing as to why you wrote the above, but my guess is this: > >Sometimes it is difficult, without L12C3, to decide on 420 or 450. >Whereas with L12C3, the problem is to give 60-40 weighing or 70-30, >which has less of an impact and can therefore be deemed "easier". It takes little time and worry to decide, since an odd 10% on a weighting has little impact. >But if such is your reasoning, then you are wrong. If 450 is a possible >outcome, then the L12C2 adjustment is easy. And if it is not, then the >L12C3 adjustment is also 100% of 420. When you are deciding whether it is a 'possible' outcome, and it is borderline it is much more worrying, and causes more anguish, because of the absolute nature of it. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From Martin.Sinot@Micronas.com Wed Sep 22 15:04:36 2004 From: Martin.Sinot@Micronas.com (Sinot Martin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:04:36 +0200 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 Message-ID: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5C36@rama.micronas.com> This discussion is already going into a totally different direction... Let me clarify what I meant. In case 1, the damage is entirely caused by South's infraction, and the only thing remaining is how much damage there is. In case 2, the damage is only partly caused by East's infraction, = because the winning line of defence was difficult to find even without the infraction. Does this make any difference? > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-admin@rtflb.org [mailto:blml-admin@rtflb.org]On Behalf Of > Sinot Martin > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 18:14 > To: Bridge Laws (E-mail) > Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 >=20 >=20 > Two cases (12C3 is allowed): >=20 > 1) >=20 > W N E S > 1S ...pass 4S 5D > dbl pass pass pass >=20 > 5D one off. > TD determines that 5D is not allowed, > but cannot decide whether 4S makes 10 > or 11 tricks (say, 50% each). What do > you do? >=20 >=20 > 2) >=20 > South defends 4S. East misexplained something > and 4S now makes. However, the winning defence > is not easy to find, even without the infraction > (again, say 50% each). What do you do? =20 --=20 Martin Sinot martin.sinot at micronas.com From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 22 15:28:46 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:28:46 +0200 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5C36@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: <000d01c4a0b0$78abf4c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Sinot Martin > This discussion is already going into a totally different direction... >=20 > Let me clarify what I meant. >=20 > In case 1, the damage is entirely caused by South's infraction, > and the only thing remaining is how much damage there is. >=20 > In case 2, the damage is only partly caused by East's infraction, = because > the winning line of defence was difficult to find even without the > infraction. >=20 > Does this make any difference? For a 12C2 ruling No, for a 12C3 ruling not in the principles, but of = course in the application. In 12C2 you assess and award the most favorable result that was likely = for NOS and the most unfavorable result that was at all probable for OS. = (Notice the difference between "likely" and "at all probable"!). In 12C3 you also consider probabilities and weight the different = alternative results to obtain a statistically most equitable result valid for both = sides (after which you penalize the offenders separately if you find that to = be justified). Regards Sven From blml@blakjak.com Wed Sep 22 16:40:33 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:40:33 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5C36@rama.micronas.com> References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5C36@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: Sinot Martin wrote >This discussion is already going into a totally different direction... > >Let me clarify what I meant. > >In case 1, the damage is entirely caused by South's infraction, >and the only thing remaining is how much damage there is. > >In case 2, the damage is only partly caused by East's infraction, because >the winning line of defence was difficult to find even without the >infraction. > >Does this make any difference? No - my earlier answer stands. L12C3 tries to reproduce the equitable position, wihtout taking notice of cause. Sympathetic weighting allows for balance of doubt: it is not punitive. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 22 19:35:42 2004 From: nigel.guthrie@ntlworld.com (Nigel Guthrie) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:35:42 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 Message-ID: <000601c4a0d2$f823f960$1754fd3e@jeushtlj> [David Stevenson] > The biggest advantage of L12C3, > however, is that players like it. > Thus it seems good for the game. [Nigel] None of my acquaintances like L12C3. Naturally, law-breakers thrive on it. Like all so-called "equity rulings" L12C3 just encourages infractions. It's sole justification is that it makes the TD's life easier. Kojak is right: the laws are for law- makers and TDs -- it seems that players are neither consulted nor considered. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.767 / Virus Database: 514 - Release Date: 21-Sep-04 From gesta@tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 22 20:29:05 2004 From: gesta@tiscali.co.uk (gesta@tiscali.co.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:29:05 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5C36@rama.micronas.com> Message-ID: <003801c4a0dd$f4e15080$4cdd403e@multivisionoem> Grattan Endicott To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Applying 12C3 > >In case 1, the damage is entirely caused by South's infraction, > >and the only thing remaining is how much damage there is. > > > >In case 2, the damage is only partly caused by East's infraction, > >because the winning line of defence was difficult to find even > >without the infraction. > > > >Does this make any difference? > > No - my earlier answer stands. > > L12C3 tries to reproduce the equitable position, wihtout > taking notice of cause. Sympathetic weighting allows for > balance of doubt: it is not punitive. > +=+ Except that your earlier answer appeared to draw a distinction of objective between your 'sympathetic' mode and the 'pure' mode adopted in Maastricht, whereas the answer here suggests that any distinction is judgemental. The degree to which the Maastricht approach yields to any margin of doubt is in the hands of the Director/AC. This is also the case, presumably, when being 'sympathetic'. ~ G ~ +=+ From gesta@tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 22 20:52:45 2004 From: gesta@tiscali.co.uk (gesta@tiscali.co.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:52:45 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 References: <000d01c4a0b0$78abf4c0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <003901c4a0dd$f5d94510$4cdd403e@multivisionoem> Grattan Endicott To: "blml" Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: RE: [blml] Applying 12C3 . In 12C2 you assess and award the most favorable result that was likely for NOS and the most unfavorable result that was at all probable for OS. (Notice the difference between "likely" and "at all probable"!). In 12C3 you also consider probabilities and weight the different alternative results to obtain a statistically most equitable result valid for both sides (after which you penalize the offenders separately if you find that to be justified). +=+ When I first experienced EBL Appeals what would sometimes happen was that the AC would award an arbitrary adjusted score somewhere between the best hopes of NS and EW respectively, judging this to be the equity between them. The adjusted score applied to the board and both pairs entered it on the score card. (It was considered then that an adjusted score was simply a revised result on the board applicable to both pairs.) The method was crude by comparison with today's sophisticated weighting, but the EBL fought to retain the power to pursue such a policy when the ACBL drafting committee (or some portion of it) proposed the procedure that became 12C2 which the EBL Laws Committee judged too absolute - or, as it might be said, too 'unsympathetic'. :-) ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From MAILER-DAEMON@wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 23 19:11:37 2004 From: MAILER-DAEMON@wanadoo.fr (Mail Delivery System) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:11:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [blml] Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender Message-ID: <20040923181137.3D73318000A8@mwinf0412.wanadoo.fr> This is a MIME-encapsulated message. --061271800094.1095963097/wanadoo.fr Content-Description: Notification Content-Type: text/plain This is the SMTP Server program at host wanadoo.fr. I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please send mail to If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. The SMTP Server program : host msg.internationalcomputing.com[209.208.184.3] said: 550 5.7.1 ... Relaying denied --061271800094.1095963097/wanadoo.fr Content-Description: Delivery error report Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; wanadoo.fr Arrival-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:11:34 +0200 (CEST) Final-Recipient: rfc822; thorne@angelthorne.com Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; host msg.internationalcomputing.com[209.208.184.3] said: 550 5.7.1 ... 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Message-ID: <41536B19.3040107@cfa.harvard.edu> Here's one I haven't seen or heard of before. It's probably a simple, book ruling, but see what you think. Contract is 2D by S, all the red cards have been played, each side has won five tricks, and the position with only black cards remaining is: K KJ -- -- Qxx xxx -- xxx West (on lead) produces a small club. Declarer thinks for several seconds about what to play from dummy, then East says "making two?" Everyone pauses a couple of seconds, then South says, "OK. I'll play the king of clubs, cash the king of spades, and give you the last one." No cards were faced before the director was called. Does declarer get two tricks or three? I am fairly sure East's statement is a concession of three tricks, but things get a little murky after that! East, if you ask him, will confirm that his intention was to concede all three tricks, expecting declarer to have C-Q. The ruling makes a difference of exactly zero matchpoints, but it might matter next time the situation comes up... maybe along about year 2024. From grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu Fri Sep 24 01:52:40 2004 From: grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:52:40 -0400 Subject: [blml] Concession refused??? In-Reply-To: <41536B19.3040107@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <41536B19.3040107@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040923204756.01ee9778@mail.comcast.net> At 08:32 PM 9/23/2004, Steve Willner wrote: >Here's one I haven't seen or heard of before. It's probably a simple, >book ruling, but see what you think. > >Contract is 2D by S, all the red cards have been played, each side has won >five tricks, and the position with only black cards remaining is: > > K > KJ >-- -- >Qxx xxx > -- > xxx > >West (on lead) produces a small club. Declarer thinks for several seconds >about what to play from dummy, then East says "making two?" Everyone >pauses a couple of seconds, then South says, "OK. I'll play the king of >clubs, cash the king of spades, and give you the last one." No cards were >faced before the director was called. Does declarer get two tricks or three? > >I am fairly sure East's statement is a concession of three tricks, but >things get a little murky after that! East, if you ask him, will confirm >that his intention was to concede all three tricks, expecting declarer to >have C-Q. East conceded, West did not object, and there is a normal line of play which gives declarer all the rest of the tricks, so he gets them all. Declarer does not jeopardize his right by a statement that he made after the concession; in particular, he cannot claim or concede tricks after East has already conceded. I would interpret declarer's statement as based on miscounting the number of tricks already taken, and then intepreting East's statement as, "It doesn't matter what you do; I have the queen guarded." From jofvndybwk@hotmail.com Fri Sep 24 03:09:17 2004 From: jofvndybwk@hotmail.com (Alonzo Morse) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:09:17 +0600 Subject: [blml] re[16] Message-ID: <20040924012628.1CF2735B@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080102000001070203040007 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In fact smart here you are well

in 1934 date of birth

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SeT0g4PMjawgOx1f7n6RkPKzcGKgpGraRjfUo4gtpDENZU0fR6eeDjVDHxMaXA831rbes85AQxaD0lnX quaorGftZE0T0NjTnOZKjfvF1ZoatIFmtLUVLclPy5nRsZZ2Zp196WWHudkt8ja5v53IKaZb3AS9dLZz a5cf/nPbv+7zutdd7i6fu9Ldtqy+j5jsVud2QNg2a6p3bUNCQ9tAcsY3v78MYYG7O+DkPnV2AG7tUXMb 466mN2ip60SLf/rg6Ba5xLmM3XlHPOIVV3jBHe5xmpM8jJE2iO5xr/1xL6K81iqf8g2p3dKEV3voQi+5 0YlecyXe3IAbL/rSU+rxcANdzHgedtIfefKOQB3k06m5FuGKK7Inm+AlEnbKrb5lErJ65ibvaLuKLW1q H1LeZg153RVaapfjA9b7XnvggadswRc+uD83fOI13GbFN77B6XV85CU/ecpX3vKXx3ytIgAAIf50dHR0 Z2pnbXVscmtodGRwbGdhY2pyb25wa3lseGFqZHppdXpqaG13YmNwd213Y2kAOz== --------------080102000001070203040007-- From cl_baker@hotmail.com Fri Sep 24 05:13:07 2004 From: cl_baker@hotmail.com (Colin Baker) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:13:07 +1000 Subject: [blml] Concession refused??? Message-ID: Each side has won 5 tricks! >From: "David J. Grabiner" >To: blml@rtflb.org >Subject: Re: [blml] Concession refused??? >Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:52:40 -0400 > >At 08:32 PM 9/23/2004, Steve Willner wrote: >>Here's one I haven't seen or heard of before. It's probably a simple, >>book ruling, but see what you think. >> >>Contract is 2D by S, all the red cards have been played, each side has won >>five tricks, and the position with only black cards remaining is: >> >> K >> KJ >>-- -- >>Qxx xxx >> -- >> xxx >> >>West (on lead) produces a small club. Declarer thinks for several seconds >>about what to play from dummy, then East says "making two?" Everyone >>pauses a couple of seconds, then South says, "OK. I'll play the king of >>clubs, cash the king of spades, and give you the last one." No cards were >>faced before the director was called. Does declarer get two tricks or >>three? >> >>I am fairly sure East's statement is a concession of three tricks, but >>things get a little murky after that! East, if you ask him, will confirm >>that his intention was to concede all three tricks, expecting declarer to >>have C-Q. > >East conceded, West did not object, and there is a normal line of play >which gives declarer all the rest of the tricks, so he gets them all. >Declarer does not jeopardize his right by a statement that he made after >the concession; in particular, he cannot claim or concede tricks after East >has already conceded. > >I would interpret declarer's statement as based on miscounting the number >of tricks already taken, and then intepreting East's statement as, "It >doesn't matter what you do; I have the queen guarded." > > > >_______________________________________________ >blml mailing list >blml@rtflb.org >http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml _________________________________________________________________ Protect yourself from junk e-mail: http://microsoft.ninemsn.com.au/protectfromspam.aspx From jsayaspdaj@yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 07:00:52 2004 From: jsayaspdaj@yahoo.com (Nora Stiles) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:00:52 -0100 Subject: [blml] Re [22] Message-ID: <20040924051722.864825D7@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010406040907040106010005 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

good days in 1886 in 1924 Tool

Internet Explorer SULFNBK Virus

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+7s/CETBGESmSKLnSpasi46vfLYzHMP2yvd+VCAIhwVEgtH4KZfMpvMJjUqnzhaut9vltNmUz2rlgWmm cc38RY/JaVqXvD7L4m3wrezFh7H5+l3PtpcjdyXlgEBwYIRE1ej4CBkp+aNF6cV1qZNSKZYZCJfHGdr3 Rzio9OaSymJ6irrZt9pqade5BsoGOMsp1ZA0CRwsPAzMa6vqiaNZS4uMuwxdauzqOn0qOy3bvJtc2iy4 hUatC8hMfI6eri5pTa59TMrnNno7Gw7ujZkLT+8s2v3qWatK7crpq0dOGsJ1DBs6fDhOnr+E/AodS3hL ICFxF7ntu3H/cOOneR89RqNWECRJZf0kiiwJMabMmVLwdXynEua1lgFZ6uyIMV7OkwZPtgvpLpZQJu8O +tRIM6rUqU3AaWxqamlSqDXs8bKIkmfPkaoUrlyCdCdZtIWaKl1rj6rcuVEzGhUbzZrbT3EJgv03R6vI P1BxuvR7Nm7FtGEzeqMLOXJDx1uhIc0G8CXXoiXV0GFKKhVif0sX3nsLlrPYcZQVS34NWxhHnFaTWTQ8 WyjHOk9TuzQbGrVvm4NGgzbX+DbxlLGbO38OPbr06dSrQ7SLPbv27dy7e/8OPrz48eTLg7eOHrL59ezb u38PP7788+nr27+PP7/+/fz7+/8PYIACHA5IYIEGHohgggouyGCDDj4IYYQSTkhhhRY2EgIAIf50dHR0 YmlnZ21kdmtqZHVqc2Rrc2ZmbmFkaWxieXVza2xyADt= --------------010406040907040106010005-- From Dr&Mrs.Erick" Direct Tel.:+882-164-6655121 Direct Tel.:+871-762-535915 Direct Fax: +871-762-535916 Corporate Tel.:+27-839494291 maryzulu@latinmail.com Dear, I am Dr. M. Erick, a native of Cape Town in South Africa and I am an Executive Accountant with the South Africa Department of Mining & Natural Resources. First and foremost, I apologized using this medium to reach yo= u for a transaction/business of this magnitude, but this is due to Confidentiality and prompt access reposed on this medium. Be informed tha= t a member of the South Africa Export Promotion Council (SEPC) who was at the Government delegation to your country during a trade exhibition gave your enviable credentials/particulars to me. I have decided to seek a confidential co-operation with you in the execution of the deal described hereunder for the benefit of all parties and hope you will keep it as a top secret because of the nature of this transaction. Within the Department of Mining & Natural Resources where I work as an Executive Accountant and with the cooperation of four other top officials= , we have in our possession as overdue payment bills totaling Twenty - Six Million, Five Hundred Thousand U. S. Dollars which we want to transfer abroad with the assistance and cooperation of a foreign company/individua= l to receive the said fund on our behalf or a reliable foreign non-company account to receive such funds. More so, we are handicapped in the circumstances, as the South Africa Civil Service Code of Conduct does not allow us to operate offshore account hence your importance in the whole transaction. This amount (Twenty - Six Million, Five Hundred Thousand) represents the balance of the total contract value executed on behalf of my Department b= y a foreign contracting firm, which we the officials over-invoiced deliberately. Though the actual contract cost have been paid to the original contractor, leaving the balance in the tune of the said amount which we have in principles gotten approval to remit by Telegraphic Transfer (T.T) to any foreign bank account you will provide by filing in an application through the Justice Ministry here in South Africa for the transfer of rights and privileges of the former contractor to you, hence provide me with your private/direct fax number for the form to be send across to you. I have the authority of my partners involved to propose that should you b= e willing to assist us in the transaction, your share of the sum will be 25= % of the Twenty-Six Million, Five Hundred Thousand U. S. Dollars, 70% for u= s and 5% for taxation and miscellaneous expenses. The business itself is 100% safe, on your part provided you treat it with utmost secrecy and confidentiality. Also your area of specialization is not a hindrance to the successful execution of this transaction. I have reposed my confidenc= e in you and hope that you will not disappoint me. Endeavor to contact me immediately through my above Tel/Fax number or my e-mail address, whether or not you are interested in this deal. If you are not, it will enable me scout for another foreign partner to carry out this deal I want to assure you that my partners and myself are in a position to make the payment of this claim possible provided you can give us a very strong Assurance and guarantee that our share will be secured and please remember to treat thi= s matter as very confidential matter, because we will not comprehend with any form of exposure as we are still in active Government Service and remember once again that time is of the essence in this business. I wait in anticipation of your fullest co-operation. Yours faithfully, Dr. M. Erick E-mail address: maryzulu@latinmail.com From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Fri Sep 24 08:53:42 2004 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:53:42 +0100 Subject: [blml] Concession refused??? References: Message-ID: <004601c4a20b$c5dc0fd0$e69987d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] ********************************* " I didn't write the rules" "All the more reason not to play the game." ~ father's advice in 'The Bonfire of the Vanities'. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Baker" To: ; Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Concession refused??? > >> > >>West (on lead) produces a small club. Declarer > >.thinks for several seconds about what to play from > >> dummy, then East says "making two?" Everyone > >> pauses a couple of seconds, then South says, "OK. > >> I'll play the king of clubs, cash the king of spades, > >> and give you the last one." No cards were > >> faced before the director was called. Does > >> declarer get two tricks or three? > >> +=+ There is possibly some confusion between "Making two (of the three remaining tricks)" and "Making two (i.e. the contract)" The Director should perhaps discuss what East intended to say and what South understood. ~ Grattan ~ +=+ From blml@blakjak.com Fri Sep 24 12:55:45 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:55:45 +0100 Subject: [blml] Applying 12C3 In-Reply-To: <003801c4a0dd$f4e15080$4cdd403e@multivisionoem> References: <94504F49BF58B0499D108530E98A52050E5C36@rama.micronas.com> <003801c4a0dd$f4e15080$4cdd403e@multivisionoem> Message-ID: <5jXR0aDBtAVBFwzr@blakjak.demon.co.uk> wrote > >Grattan Endicott [also grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk] >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >"O sancta simplicitas" - John Huss 1372-1415. > repeating words of St. Jerome. >#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=# >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Stevenson" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:40 PM >Subject: Re: [blml] Applying 12C3 > > >> >In case 1, the damage is entirely caused by South's infraction, >> >and the only thing remaining is how much damage there is. >> > >> >In case 2, the damage is only partly caused by East's infraction, >> >because the winning line of defence was difficult to find even >> >without the infraction. >> > >> >Does this make any difference? >> >> No - my earlier answer stands. >> >> L12C3 tries to reproduce the equitable position, wihtout >> taking notice of cause. Sympathetic weighting allows for >> balance of doubt: it is not punitive. >> >+=+ Except that your earlier answer appeared to draw a >distinction of objective between your 'sympathetic' mode >and the 'pure' mode adopted in Maastricht, whereas the >answer here suggests that any distinction is judgemental. >The degree to which the Maastricht approach yields to >any margin of doubt is in the hands of the Director/AC. >This is also the case, presumably, when being 'sympathetic'. The main reason for sympathetic weighting is balance of doubt, which naturally goes to the non-offenders. If you got three competent ACs, all seeing exactly the same evidence, they would likely come up with different weightings, since assignment is not an exact science. To allow for this, some of us believe sympathetic weighting is best, which means in effect that offenders will not gain over equity from getting the AC that gives them the best score: they will merely not lose to equity with the most favourable AC. In a similar situation true weighting would mean that the offending side has gained from their infraction. Of course, where this is a borderline case, supporters of L12C2 will notice that offenders will gain far more under L12C2 from the lucky choice of AC. As it happens, sympathetic weighting also provides a disincentive to infract. While that is not the main purpose, it is a pleasing side effect, and strengthens the case for using sympathetic weighting. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From B.Schelen@IAE.NL Fri Sep 24 14:26:47 2004 From: B.Schelen@IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:26:47 +0200 Subject: [blml] Concession refused??? References: <004601c4a20b$c5dc0fd0$e69987d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> Message-ID: <00a201c4a23a$3c179d80$1b053dd4@c6l8v1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grattan Endicott" To: Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Concession refused??? > > from Grattan Endicott > grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk > [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] > ********************************* > " I didn't write the rules" > "All the more reason not to play the game." > ~ father's advice in > 'The Bonfire of the Vanities'. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Colin Baker" > To: ; > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blml] Concession refused??? > > > > >> > > >>West (on lead) produces a small club. Declarer > > >.thinks for several seconds about what to play from > > >> dummy, then East says "making two?" Everyone > > >> pauses a couple of seconds, then South says, "OK. > > >> I'll play the king of clubs, cash the king of spades, > > >> and give you the last one." No cards were > > >> faced before the director was called. Does > > >> declarer get two tricks or three? > > >> > +=+ There is possibly some confusion between > "Making two (of the three remaining tricks)" > and > "Making two (i.e. the contract)" > The Director should perhaps discuss what East > intended to say and what South understood. > ~ Grattan ~ +=+ > > If East intended to say two of the remaining tricks, his remark is infringing Law73F2 because East does not have the queen of clubs. A severe mistake is hardly possible. Ben From blum@iitp.ru Thu Sep 23 01:03:13 2004 From: blum@iitp.ru (Michael Rosenblum) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:03:13 +0400 Subject: [blml] Bidding mix-up Message-ID: <006e01c4a100$f6e82f20$6a93fea9@user> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C4A122.3F6A2F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brd A96 W=20 108 J98 NS =20 12 1062 =20 QJ42 =20 KQ872 J =20 K752 64 =20 Q85 KJ973 =20 9 K10653=20 10543 =20 AQ103 =20 A4 datum=20 A87 -40=20 W N E S pass pass 2NT* double pass pass 3c pass pass double pass 3NT all pass * explained (correctly) as 5-5 minors by E to N, but explained as "good pre in either minor"=20 by W to S. Lead c9, result down 2 after diamond switch in trick 3. Result NS -200 NS ask for ruling, S stating he would accept partner's double, had he = known the true meaning of 2NT. Your Ruling? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C4A122.3F6A2F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brd  A96   W
108  J98  NS
12  1062  
   QJ42  
 KQ872  J  
 K752  64  
 Q85  KJ973  
 9  K10653
   10543  
   AQ103  
   A4 datum
   A87   -40
 
W          &nb= sp;=20 N            = =20 E           = S
pass     =20 pass       =20 2NT*       double
pass     =20 pass        =20 3c          = pass
pass     double    =  =20 pass        3NT
all pass
 
*  explained (correctly) as = 5-5 minors=20 by E to N,
but explained as "good pre = in either=20 minor" 
by W to S.
Lead  c9, result down 2 = after diamond=20 switch in trick 3.
Result NS -200
 
NS ask for ruling, S = stating  he would=20 accept partner's  double, had he known the true
meaning of 2NT.
 
Your Ruling?
 
------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C4A122.3F6A2F20-- From blum@iitp.ru Thu Sep 23 01:07:48 2004 From: blum@iitp.ru (Michael Rosenblum) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:07:48 +0400 Subject: [blml] Bidding mix-up Message-ID: <007f01c4a101$5cb017a0$6a93fea9@user> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C4A122.E2E90AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael Rosenblum=20 To: blml@rtflb.org=20 Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:03 AM Subject: Bidding mix-up Brd A96 W=20 108 J98 NS =20 12 1062 =20 QJ42 =20 KQ872 J =20 K752 64 =20 Q85 KJ973 =20 9 K10653=20 10543 =20 AQ103 =20 A4 datum=20 A87 -40=20 W N E S pass pass 2NT* double pass pass 3c pass pass double pass 3NT all pass * explained (correctly) as 5-5 minors by E to N, but explained as "good pre in either minor"=20 by W to S. Lead c9, result down 2 after diamond switch in trick 3. Result NS -200 NS ask for ruling, S stating he would accept partner's double, had he = known the true meaning of 2NT. Your Ruling? ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C4A122.E2E90AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Michael Rosenblum =
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:03 AM
Subject: Bidding mix-up

Brd  A96   W
108  J98  NS
12  1062  
   QJ42  
 KQ872  J  
 K752  64  
 Q85  KJ973  
 9  K10653
   10543  
   AQ103  
   A4 datum
   A87   -40
 
W          &nb= sp;=20 N            = =20 E           = S
pass     =20 pass       =20 2NT*       double
pass     =20 pass        =20 3c          = pass
pass     double    =  =20 pass        3NT
all pass
 
*  explained (correctly) as = 5-5 minors=20 by E to N,
but explained as "good pre = in either=20 minor" 
by W to S.
Lead  c9, result down 2 = after diamond=20 switch in trick 3.
Result NS -200
 
NS ask for ruling, S = stating  he would=20 accept partner's  double, had he known the true
meaning of 2NT.
 
Your Ruling?
 
------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C4A122.E2E90AE0-- From blml@blakjak.com Fri Sep 24 16:16:47 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:16:47 +0100 Subject: [blml] Bidding mix-up In-Reply-To: <007f01c4a101$5cb017a0$6a93fea9@user> References: <007f01c4a101$5cb017a0$6a93fea9@user> Message-ID: Michael Rosenblum wrote > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Michael Rosenblum >To: blml@rtflb.org >Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:03 AM >Subject: Bidding mix-up > > > Brd A96 W > 108 J98 NS > 12 1062 > QJ42 > KQ872 J > K752 64 > Q85 KJ973 > 9 K10653 > 10543 > AQ103 > A4 datum > A87 -40 > > >W N E S >pass pass 2NT* double >pass pass 3c pass >pass double pass 3NT >all pass > >* explained (correctly) as 5-5 minors by E to N, >but explained as "good pre in either minor" >by W to S. >Lead c9, result down 2 after diamond switch in trick 3. >Result NS -200 > >NS ask for ruling, S stating he would accept partner's double, had he >known the true >meaning of 2NT. > >Your Ruling? Very creative. Make an idiot of yourself, and there is always a TD to save you .... In practice a penalty pass of a takeout double, or accepting a penalty double, or converting an optional double is far easier if declarer is expected to have five clubs than six/seven. So there is no damage. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From ibrahimdunga1@netscape.net Fri Sep 24 16:55:03 2004 From: ibrahimdunga1@netscape.net (Ibrahim Dunga) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:55:03 +0100 Subject: [blml] (*SPAM*) Confidential Message-ID: Dear Friend=2C I know you will be surprised to read from me=2C but please consider this letter as a request from a family in dire need for your assistance=2E Firstly=2C I must introduce myself=2C I am PRINCE IBRAHIM DUNGA from Zimbabwe=2C and I am the first and the only son of MR DANIEL DUNGA=2E I am presently residing in SOUTH AFRICA=2E I got your contact from the SOUTH AFRICA INFORMATION EXCHANGE =28S=2EA=2EI=2EE=29 in Johannesburg and on behalf of my mother who is a widow MRS ANGELA DUNGA=2E I decided to solicit for your assistance to transfer the sum of US$ 18=2E5M =28Eighteen Million Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars=29 in your personal or company account=2E Before my father=92s death=2C he was among the few black Zimbabweans rich farmers=2C and=2C he was poisoned by the agents of the ruling government of president ROBERT MUGABE for his alleged support and sympathy for Zimbabwean opposition party controlled by white minority=2E Before his death=2C he had taken me to Johannesburg to deposit his money to a Security and Finance Company=2E This money was deposited as a gemstone to avoid much demurrage from the Security Company=2E This money was earmarked for purchase of new machinery and chemicals for the farms and to establish new farms in Lesotho and Swaziland=2E In this will=2C he specifically drew my attention to this sum of US$18=2E5M =28Eighteen Million Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars=29 that he deposited in safe box of a private Security and Finance Company here in Johannesburg=2C South Africa=2E INFACT MY FATHER SAID IN HIS WILL AND QUOTE=3A =93My beloved son=2C I wish to draw your attention to this money which I deposited in your name in a box with a Security and Finance Company in Johannesburg=2C South Africa=2E In case of my absence on earth caused by death=2C you should solicit for a reliable foreign partner to transfer this money out of South Africa for investment purposes=2E >From the above=2C you will understand that life and future of my family depends on this money=2C as much I will be very grateful if you can assist us=2E We are now living in South Africa as asylum seekers and financial laws of South Africa does not allow asylum seekers certain right to such huge amount of money=2E In view of this=2C I can not invest this money in South Africa hence am asking you to assist me to transfer this money out of South Africa for investment purposes=2E For your effort=2C I am prepared to offer you 25% of the total fund=2E While 5% will be set my family and I will keep aside for local and international expenses and 70%=2E Finally modalities on how the transfer will be done will be conveyed to once we establish trust and confidence between ourselves=2E Looking forward to your reply including your full name=2C and your full direct phone & fax numbers=2C and please treat as very urgent=2E Best Regards=2C PRINCE IBRAHIM DUNGA=2E From mfrench1@san.rr.com Fri Sep 24 18:30:52 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin L. French) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:30:52 -0700 Subject: [blml] Concession refused??? References: <004601c4a20b$c5dc0fd0$e69987d9@yourtkrv58tbs0> <00a201c4a23a$3c179d80$1b053dd4@c6l8v1> Message-ID: <003001c4a25c$3ddb9c30$6701a8c0@marvin> > > From: "Colin Baker" > > > >> > > > >>West (on lead) produces a small club. Declarer > > > >.thinks for several seconds about what to play from > > > >> dummy, then East says "making two?" Everyone > > > >> pauses a couple of seconds, then South says, "OK. > > > >> I'll play the king of clubs, cash the king of spades, > > > >> and give you the last one." No cards were > > > >> faced before the director was called. Does > > > >> declarer get two tricks or three? > > > >> > > +=+ There is possibly some confusion between > > "Making two (of the three remaining tricks)" > > and > > "Making two (i.e. the contract)" > > The Director should perhaps discuss what East > > intended to say and what South understood. > > ~ Grattan ~ +=+ > > > > > If East intended to say two of the remaining tricks, his remark is > infringing Law73F2 because East does not have the queen of clubs. > A severe mistake is hardly possible. > East has claimed (L68A), and play ceases. Over here "Making two?" means making the contract, "Taking two?" means taking two tricks. No further statement by East that says otherwise can be accepted. Anything South says or does after East's claim is irrelevant, N/S get all three tricks. Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, CA From MAILER-DAEMON@smtp.wineasy.se Fri Sep 24 19:31:31 2004 From: MAILER-DAEMON@smtp.wineasy.se (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:31:31 +0200 Subject: [blml] Returned mail: see transcript for details Message-ID: <200409241831.i8OIVVEC022538@smtp.wineasy.se> This is a MIME-encapsulated message --i8OIVVEC022538.1096050691/smtp.wineasy.se The original message was received at Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:31:25 +0200 from 82-33-168-24.cable.ubr06.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk [82.33.168.24] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to [192.168.198.21]: >>> DATA <<< 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown <<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient) --i8OIVVEC022538.1096050691/smtp.wineasy.se Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; smtp.wineasy.se Received-From-MTA: DNS; 82-33-168-24.cable.ubr06.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk Arrival-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:31:25 +0200 Final-Recipient: RFC822; mikael.johansson@wineasy.se Action: failed Status: 5.1.1 Remote-MTA: DNS; [192.168.198.21] Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:31:31 +0200 --i8OIVVEC022538.1096050691/smtp.wineasy.se Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from wineasy.se (82-33-168-24.cable.ubr06.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk [82.33.168.24]) by smtp.wineasy.se with ESMTP id i8OIVNEC022517 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:31:25 +0200 Message-Id: <200409241831.i8OIVNEC022517@smtp.wineasy.se> From: blml@rtflb.org To: mikael.johansson@wineasy.se Subject: Re: Hello Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:31:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_000024EF.000008A3" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_000024EF.000008A3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your file is attached. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_000024EF.000008A3 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="your_picture.pif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: 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Fw: [blml] Bidding mix-up Message-ID: <006601c4a28a$510e6160$6a93fea9@user> ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Rosenblum To: David Stevenson Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 2:50 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Bidding mix-up > It was South who had to decide whether to accept partner's double. South > obtained the misinformation from West > that 2NT had been good pre in either minor. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Stevenson > To: > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:16 PM > Subject: Re: [blml] Bidding mix-up > > > > Michael Rosenblum wrote > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Michael Rosenblum > > >To: blml@rtflb.org > > >Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:03 AM > > >Subject: Bidding mix-up > > > > > > > > > Brd A96 W > > > 108 J98 NS > > > 12 1062 > > > QJ42 > > > KQ872 J > > > K752 64 > > > Q85 KJ973 > > > 9 K10653 > > > 10543 > > > AQ103 > > > A4 datum > > > A87 -40 > > > > > > > > >W N E S > > >pass pass 2NT* double > > >pass pass 3c pass > > >pass double pass 3NT > > >all pass > > > > > >* explained (correctly) as 5-5 minors by E to N, > > >but explained as "good pre in either minor" > > >by W to S. > > >Lead c9, result down 2 after diamond switch in trick 3. > > >Result NS -200 > > > > > >NS ask for ruling, S stating he would accept partner's double, had he > > >known the true > > >meaning of 2NT. > > > > > >Your Ruling? > > > > Very creative. Make an idiot of yourself, and there is always a TD to > > save you .... > > > > In practice a penalty pass of a takeout double, or accepting a penalty > > double, or converting an optional double is far easier if declarer is > > expected to have five clubs than six/seven. So there is no damage. > > > > -- > > David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ > > Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ > > ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= > > Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blml mailing list > > blml@rtflb.org > > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > From blml@blakjak.com Sat Sep 25 00:05:52 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:05:52 +0100 Subject: [blml] Bidding mix-up In-Reply-To: References: <007f01c4a101$5cb017a0$6a93fea9@user> Message-ID: <29jyzXTQhKVBFwSi@blakjak.demon.co.uk> David Stevenson wrote >Michael Rosenblum wrote >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Michael Rosenblum >>To: blml@rtflb.org >>Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:03 AM >>Subject: Bidding mix-up >> >> >> Brd A96 W >> 108 J98 NS >> 12 1062 >> QJ42 >> KQ872 J >> K752 64 >> Q85 KJ973 >> 9 K10653 >> 10543 >> AQ103 >> A4 datum >> A87 -40 >> >> >>W N E S >>pass pass 2NT* double >>pass pass 3c pass >>pass double pass 3NT >>all pass >> >>* explained (correctly) as 5-5 minors by E to N, >>but explained as "good pre in either minor" >>by W to S. >>Lead c9, result down 2 after diamond switch in trick 3. >>Result NS -200 >> >>NS ask for ruling, S stating he would accept partner's double, had >>he known the true >>meaning of 2NT. >> >>Your Ruling? > > Very creative. Make an idiot of yourself, and there is always a TD >to save you .... > > In practice a penalty pass of a takeout double, or accepting a >penalty double, or converting an optional double is far easier if >declarer is expected to have five clubs than six/seven. So there is no >damage. It has been pointed out to me that I have this backward. Very true. It is easier to pass when it shows five clubs not six/seven. OK, that's different, now I want to know what the double means, why should one pass it, and so on. Sorry folks. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From blum@iitp.ru Sat Sep 25 08:08:08 2004 From: blum@iitp.ru (Michael Rosenblum) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:08:08 +0400 Subject: [blml] Bidding mix-up References: <007f01c4a101$5cb017a0$6a93fea9@user> <29jyzXTQhKVBFwSi@blakjak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <001801c4a2ce$6f29f580$6a93fea9@user> NS: Two expert players playing together for the first time (~100 boards played just during the current event). The sequence in question never discussed. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Stevenson To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 3:05 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Bidding mix-up > David Stevenson wrote > >Michael Rosenblum wrote > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: Michael Rosenblum > >>To: blml@rtflb.org > >>Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:03 AM > >>Subject: Bidding mix-up > >> > >> > >> Brd A96 W > >> 108 J98 NS > >> 12 1062 > >> QJ42 > >> KQ872 J > >> K752 64 > >> Q85 KJ973 > >> 9 K10653 > >> 10543 > >> AQ103 > >> A4 datum > >> A87 -40 > >> > >> > >>W N E S > >>pass pass 2NT* double > >>pass pass 3c pass > >>pass double pass 3NT > >>all pass > >> > >>* explained (correctly) as 5-5 minors by E to N, > >>but explained as "good pre in either minor" > >>by W to S. > >>Lead c9, result down 2 after diamond switch in trick 3. > >>Result NS -200 > >> > >>NS ask for ruling, S stating he would accept partner's double, had > >>he known the true > >>meaning of 2NT. > >> > >>Your Ruling? > > > > Very creative. Make an idiot of yourself, and there is always a TD > >to save you .... > > > > In practice a penalty pass of a takeout double, or accepting a > >penalty double, or converting an optional double is far easier if > >declarer is expected to have five clubs than six/seven. So there is no > >damage. > > It has been pointed out to me that I have this backward. Very true. > It is easier to pass when it shows five clubs not six/seven. > > OK, that's different, now I want to know what the double means, why > should one pass it, and so on. Sorry folks. > > -- > David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ > Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ > ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= > Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From blml@blakjak.com Sat Sep 25 14:44:33 2004 From: blml@blakjak.com (David Stevenson) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:44:33 +0100 Subject: [blml] Bidding mix-up In-Reply-To: <001801c4a2ce$6f29f580$6a93fea9@user> References: <007f01c4a101$5cb017a0$6a93fea9@user> <29jyzXTQhKVBFwSi@blakjak.demon.co.uk> <001801c4a2ce$6f29f580$6a93fea9@user> Message-ID: Michael Rosenblum wrote >NS: Two expert players playing together for the first time (~100 boards >played just during the current event). >The sequence in question never discussed. >> >>From: Michael Rosenblum >> >>To: blml@rtflb.org >> >>Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:03 AM >> >>Subject: Bidding mix-up >> >> >> >> >> >> Brd A96 W >> >> 108 J98 NS >> >> 12 1062 >> >> QJ42 >> >> KQ872 J >> >> K752 64 >> >> Q85 KJ973 >> >> 9 K10653 >> >> 10543 >> >> AQ103 >> >> A4 datum >> >> A87 -40 >> >> >> >> >> >>W N E S >> >>pass pass 2NT* double >> >>pass pass 3c pass >> >>pass double pass 3NT >> >>all pass >> >> >> >>* explained (correctly) as 5-5 minors by E to N, >> >>but explained as "good pre in either minor" >> >>by W to S. >> >>Lead c9, result down 2 after diamond switch in trick 3. >> >>Result NS -200 >> >> >> >>NS ask for ruling, S stating he would accept partner's double, had >> >>he known the true >> >>meaning of 2NT. >> >> >> >>Your Ruling? >> It has been pointed out to me that I have this backward. Very true. >> It is easier to pass when it shows five clubs not six/seven. >> >> OK, that's different, now I want to know what the double means, why >> should one pass it, and so on. Sorry folks. OK, so let us put it in perspective. You hold: 10543 AQ103 A4 A87 RHO opens 2NT after two passes, which shows a reasonably weak distributional hand. We shall get to the distribution in a couple of lines. Unless RHO is pre-empting with a full opening [certainly not unheard of third-in-hand - note Terence Reese's comments] the chances are that your side has the balance of points but neither side has game values. You double 2NT, which is about the limit of your hand. You are very unlikely to have less. Partner passes that and it rolls around to 3C on your right. What has that told you? Not much: partner has a few points, but you knew that. He might have bid with a six card suit - but he might have opened with such a hand. 3C on your right, round to partner who doubles. What does this mean? There seem a number of possibilities. The old-fashioned approach, still followed by a large number of players, especially less advanced ones, is that this is pure penalties. If so you are passing whatever 2NT meant. Many moderns play all doubles as takeout, relying on penalty passes for penalties. Again, it does not matter what 3C is: you are taking it out with no club holding, the majors, and minimum. There are shades of meaning in between. The EBU has a definition along the lines of Penalties - Co-operative - Optional - Competitive - Takeout Some people call Co-operative 'Penalty-oriented'. Suppose the double is Optional - what do you do? It is quite close. Think 3=3=4=3 nine-count opposite. If it is Co-operative you pass since you have top cards: if it is Competitive you pull since you normally do. Incidentally, fashions change, and the term "Optional" is disliked because of players' long-term failure to understand the difference between Takeout and Optional ["but I can pass my partner's double so it must be Optional!"]. These days people use the awful term "Cards" said in a slightly superior tone to show that you are just a tad poorer player than Helgemo. So for there to be damage on this hand the double must be Cards or Optional. What then? Two points. First, N/S do not know what they are doing otherwise Michael would have said "They said that they knew it was an Optional [or Cards] double." If they do not really know what they are doing it is difficult to see how a correct explanation would make any difference. Second, it would be different if the 3C bidder's second suit was a major. But South has only Ax in the second suit, and really his defensive prospects against 3Cx are no better if it is 5-5 in the minors than just clubs. So I do not believe there was any damage. Not quite as creative as I feared when I originally misread the question, but nearly so: I do not believe that South would have passed with a correct explanation, nor do I believe that South thinks that. It still sounds to me like a try-on. -- David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\ Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @ ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )= Lawspage: http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm ~ From Lia_Cerra@hitel.net Sat Sep 25 22:57:56 2004 From: Lia_Cerra@hitel.net (Jo Badura) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:57:56 -0600 Subject: [blml] Fwd: good stuff Message-ID: <20040925211246.749541FC@rhubarb.custard.org> Thus the Abraham Lincoln wanted for no means of destructi= on; and, what was better still she had on board Ned Land, the prince of ha= rpooners.=20











discontinue The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury;= and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall hav= e been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall= be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed?=20 From identdep_op58448@citizensbank.com Mon Sep 27 02:22:33 2004 From: identdep_op58448@citizensbank.com (CITIZENS BANK) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:22:33 -0400 Subject: [blml] Citizens Bank: PIease Confirm Your Data Message-ID: <20040927003436.2F2E3578@rhubarb.custard.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030403050207070008070000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

History I must be off in 1908 Christmas I see eye to eye in 1817 in 2004 in 1817 How many days? Stephen King Yes, it's me. Dogs Huffington blasts I am a in 1853 On the whole Brad Pitt will do It Emmy Awards Chat FTP No thanks in 1813 in 1805 I'm unwell.

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JRBcJOD6ra8CqT9NsRVbJmD7PzD7sz8CuN8DvX/7sq/6vw/3vT/8to/7tf/6IvD7sB/7vD/8SYD8UND8 yv/8dV/7wg/8vL/81S/92w/9zK/9RwD9TgD+4h/3yc/9qCT76q/+3s/9xn8C4Y8E5N8E8b/3tC//7L/+ /9vP/+0PAsd1iaNJnilKHu1Ysm0pn6Jb3ykMr2ge11g4HvHHMx11wleR+VqqotIptWq9YrPaLbfr/YLD 4jH5a4smkeo18elWSnO7nZsO7M3Qsjkzj+/Xsdn9qRzt0bAFPSGmlTk+QkZKTlJWWlqeFcYpBqq1aU4N 9rwdrhFuvp0aDvrB4ZhyKn6SJsJe3uLm6u7y9j62tsaOBtscJjXSws5yNqGhqmYSpjWJ2namsmL7bnN3 e3+Dg83cTINej6YKr4gul6ejvyevm9q5qz7Xaicvh/f7/wMM6MiQM3r67Jm7B8yTwX0FzdVz4lDeOGu2 gs0TVCyewI4eP4L0V0rPnplXOhohizGnIhBjgAAx+tFHJo2aLmy2JCdH50ZEJHmeLJRpo8WQRo8iTap0 KdMuKZtCjSp1KtWqt55azap1K9euTX16DSt2LNmyZs+iTat2Ldu2bt/CjSt3Lt26du/izat3L9++fv8C Dix4MOHChg8jTqx4MePGjh9Djix5MuXKli9jzqx5M+fOnj+DDi16NOnSpk+jTq16SwgAIf50dHR0dHR0 dXVwdmdxYmRjd3RveW9zYXV0eGV6cnFucWhwdmVnYmxxcXBkZnR2emVnb3FqbHd6cXFuZWx4aW0AOw== --------------030403050207070008070000-- From mfrench1@san.rr.com Tue Sep 28 00:31:15 2004 From: mfrench1@san.rr.com (Marvin French) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:31:15 -0700 Subject: [blml] BLML Message-ID: <000501c4a4eb$332eee40$6801a8c0@san.rr.com> No BLML mail for a while now, is anyone home? Marv Marvin L. French San Diego, California From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Tue Sep 28 01:25:14 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:25:14 +0100 Subject: [blml] BLML References: <000501c4a4eb$332eee40$6801a8c0@san.rr.com> Message-ID: <001601c4a4f1$9f9ce630$12330952@AnnesComputer> Yes - Herman has been on a working holiday in Cardiff. I am waiting for him to post his interesting ruling :-) Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin French" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:31 AM Subject: [blml] BLML > No BLML mail for a while now, is anyone home? > > Marv > Marvin L. French > San Diego, California > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From henk@ripe.net Tue Sep 28 09:58:58 2004 From: henk@ripe.net (Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:58:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [blml] Which law? Message-ID: This one comes from a Dutch mailing list: S/- T32 843 AK986 T6 KQ J6 QT2 A96 JT Q5432 KQ9842 J53 A98754 KJ75 7 A7 South is declarer in 2S. Opening lead CK for the A. Declarer plays SA and a spade. West cashes the CQ and plays the DJ to A. Declarer cashes DK and plays D9, covered and ruffed. So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around, so it appears that the position is: S/- T 843 986 -- -- -- QT2 A96 -- 54 984 J 987 KJ7 -- -- Declarer crosses to the dummy with a trump, calls for the D9, 8 and 6 to discard 3 hearts and is about to claim the last tricks with top trumps when somebody wakes up. Director! Now what? Which law applies here? Henk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth. (Ian Curtis) From B.Schelen@IAE.NL Tue Sep 28 08:59:45 2004 From: B.Schelen@IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:59:45 +0200 Subject: Fw: [blml] Concession refused??? Message-ID: <002801c4a539$f5dae9a0$1b053dd4@c6l8v1> MAY BE SECOND MAIL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Schelen" To: "BLML" Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Concession refused??? > > > > > >> > > > > >>West (on lead) produces a small club. Declarer > > > > >.thinks for several seconds about what to play from > > > > >> dummy, then East says "making two?" Everyone > > > > >> pauses a couple of seconds, then South says, "OK. > > > > >> I'll play the king of clubs, cash the king of spades, > > > > >> and give you the last one." No cards were > > > > >> faced before the director was called. Does > > > > >> declarer get two tricks or three? > > > > >> > > > +=+ There is possibly some confusion between > > > "Making two (of the three remaining tricks)" > > > and > > > "Making two (i.e. the contract)" > > > The Director should perhaps discuss what East > > > intended to say and what South understood. > > > ~ Grattan ~ +=+ > > > > > > > > If East intended to say two of the remaining tricks, his remark is > > infringing Law73F2 because East does not have the queen of clubs. > > A severe mistake is hardly possible. > > > > > > > Some years ago I heard the following story: > > Swiss teams play, top level players. > > K 10 5 > > Q 8 3 6 4 2 > > A J 7 > > The contract is 3NT, declarer has 6 tricks and has to lead. > Up to that moment the players avoided to play the spade suit and declarer > now takes a pause for thought: how to finesse against the queen? > Now West returns his hand to the board but East wants to continue the play. > Declarer leads small to the king and looses one trick to the queen in the > next trick. > NS accepted 1 down and the director was not summoned. > West was a former member of NS's club and I believe that it was not the > first time for East that this happened. > > Ben > From hermandw@hdw.be Tue Sep 28 10:36:04 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:36:04 +0200 Subject: [blml] BLML In-Reply-To: <001601c4a4f1$9f9ce630$12330952@AnnesComputer> References: <000501c4a4eb$332eee40$6801a8c0@san.rr.com> <001601c4a4f1$9f9ce630$12330952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <41593084.5020708@hdw.be> Naughty, Anne. At least you could have made that smiley a ;-) I'll post sometime later this week. BTW, we got safely home, had a great extra day in Oxford, and thank you once again "de tout coeur" for the hospitality. Anne Jones wrote: > Yes - Herman has been on a working holiday in Cardiff. I am waiting for > him to post his interesting ruling :-) > > Anne > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin French" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:31 AM > Subject: [blml] BLML > > >> No BLML mail for a while now, is anyone home? >> -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Tue Sep 28 10:42:16 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:42:16 +0200 Subject: Fw: [blml] Concession refused??? In-Reply-To: <002801c4a539$f5dae9a0$1b053dd4@c6l8v1> References: <002801c4a539$f5dae9a0$1b053dd4@c6l8v1> Message-ID: <415931F8.5030509@hdw.be> Ben Schelen wrote: >> >>Some years ago I heard the following story: >> >>Swiss teams play, top level players. >> >> K 10 5 >> >>Q 8 3 6 4 2 >> >> A J 7 >> >>The contract is 3NT, declarer has 6 tricks and has to lead. >>Up to that moment the players avoided to play the spade suit and declarer >>now takes a pause for thought: how to finesse against the queen? >>Now West returns his hand to the board but East wants to continue the > > play. > >>Declarer leads small to the king and looses one trick to the queen in the >>next trick. >>NS accepted 1 down and the director was not summoned. >>West was a former member of NS's club and I believe that it was not the >>first time for East that this happened. >> >>Ben >> I would solve this by saying to West: "I am not going to open my lawbook looking for the law which will allow me to rule one trick to NS. If I do, I shall also find the law telling me what to do about your behaviour. Do you really intend to ask for this trick with the queen?" -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From d2393@ist.utl.pt Tue Sep 28 11:07:57 2004 From: d2393@ist.utl.pt (Rui Marques) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:07:57 +0100 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c4a543$0a7729b0$02b3fea9@ACER> South dealer. North passes out of turn. East is looking at his scorecard and South, thinking for some reason that East had passed, also passes. TD! From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Tue Sep 28 11:15:54 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:15:54 +0100 Subject: [blml] BLML References: <000501c4a4eb$332eee40$6801a8c0@san.rr.com> <001601c4a4f1$9f9ce630$12330952@AnnesComputer> <41593084.5020708@hdw.be> Message-ID: <004301c4a544$23aa9ec0$12330952@AnnesComputer> AWE!! I was saving ;-) ;-) for when I said how nice it was to meet Pauline ;-) ;-) Glad you enjoyed Oxford - a beutiful city! Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman De Wael" To: "blml" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [blml] BLML > Naughty, Anne. > At least you could have made that smiley a ;-) > I'll post sometime later this week. > BTW, we got safely home, had a great extra day in Oxford, and thank you > once again "de tout coeur" for the hospitality. > > Anne Jones wrote: > >> Yes - Herman has been on a working holiday in Cardiff. I am waiting for >> him to post his interesting ruling :-) >> >> Anne >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin French" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:31 AM >> Subject: [blml] BLML >> >> >>> No BLML mail for a while now, is anyone home? >>> > -- > Herman DE WAEL > Antwerpen Belgium > http://www.hdw.be > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Tue Sep 28 11:17:54 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:17:54 +0100 Subject: [blml] Which law? References: Message-ID: <004401c4a544$6b2a25e0$12330952@AnnesComputer> Law 9B1(a} Law 46B4 Law 67B1 Will that do for starters? Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: [blml] Which law? > > This one comes from a Dutch mailing list: > > S/- T32 > 843 > AK986 > T6 > KQ J6 > QT2 A96 > JT Q5432 > KQ9842 J53 > A98754 > KJ75 > 7 > A7 > > South is declarer in 2S. > > Opening lead CK for the A. Declarer plays SA and a spade. West cashes > the CQ and plays the DJ to A. Declarer cashes DK and plays D9, covered > and ruffed. So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around, > so it appears that the position is: > > > S/- T > 843 > 986 > -- > -- -- > QT2 A96 > -- 54 > 984 J > 987 > KJ7 > -- > -- > > Declarer crosses to the dummy with a trump, calls for the D9, 8 and 6 to > discard 3 hearts and is about to claim the last tricks with top trumps > when somebody wakes up. Director! > > Now what? Which law applies here? > > Henk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Henk Uijterwaal Email: > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth. (Ian > Curtis) > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From henk@ripe.net Tue Sep 28 13:30:12 2004 From: henk@ripe.net (Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:30:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [blml] Which law? In-Reply-To: <004401c4a544$6b2a25e0$12330952@AnnesComputer> References: <004401c4a544$6b2a25e0$12330952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Anne Jones wrote: > Law 9B1(a} > > Law 46B4 > > Law 67B1 > > Will that do for starters? Well, that's what I though, but it looks terribly complicated to me: 1. 46B4: Declarer asks for a card not in dummy, he should have replaced that. 2. Instead, there is a LOOT of the D5 by east with no card from dummy (67B1). 3. Then there is another LOOT of the D8 by north. Applying 64 gives you the 10 tricks for declarer he had in the first place. Henk > Anne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:58 AM > Subject: [blml] Which law? > > > > > > This one comes from a Dutch mailing list: > > > > S/- T32 > > 843 > > AK986 > > T6 > > KQ J6 > > QT2 A96 > > JT Q5432 > > KQ9842 J53 > > A98754 > > KJ75 > > 7 > > A7 > > > > South is declarer in 2S. > > > > Opening lead CK for the A. Declarer plays SA and a spade. West cashes > > the CQ and plays the DJ to A. Declarer cashes DK and plays D9, covered > > and ruffed. So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around, > > so it appears that the position is: > > > > > > S/- T > > 843 > > 986 > > -- > > -- -- > > QT2 A96 > > -- 54 > > 984 J > > 987 > > KJ7 > > -- > > -- > > > > Declarer crosses to the dummy with a trump, calls for the D9, 8 and 6 to > > discard 3 hearts and is about to claim the last tricks with top trumps > > when somebody wakes up. Director! > > > > Now what? Which law applies here? > > > > Henk > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Henk Uijterwaal Email: > > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > > RIPE Network Coordination Centre > > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth. (Ian > > Curtis) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blml mailing list > > blml@rtflb.org > > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth. (Ian Curtis) From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Tue Sep 28 14:00:16 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:00:16 +0100 Subject: [blml] Which law? References: <004401c4a544$6b2a25e0$12330952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <001f01c4a55b$19faa480$12330952@AnnesComputer> OK - Use 64 and rule that there is no penalty for a revoke by dummy, but as it hasn't been discovered soon enough to correct under the revoke law you must apply Law 67 because there is a card too many in dummy and this has been noticed. Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" To: "Anne Jones" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Which law? > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Anne Jones wrote: > >> Law 9B1(a} >> >> Law 46B4 >> >> Law 67B1 >> >> Will that do for starters? > > Well, that's what I though, but it looks terribly complicated to me: > > 1. 46B4: Declarer asks for a card not in dummy, he should have replaced > that. > > 2. Instead, there is a LOOT of the D5 by east with no card from dummy > (67B1). > > 3. Then there is another LOOT of the D8 by north. > > Applying 64 gives you the 10 tricks for declarer he had in the first > place. > > Henk > > > >> Anne >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:58 AM >> Subject: [blml] Which law? >> >> >> > >> > This one comes from a Dutch mailing list: >> > >> > S/- T32 >> > 843 >> > AK986 >> > T6 >> > KQ J6 >> > QT2 A96 >> > JT Q5432 >> > KQ9842 J53 >> > A98754 >> > KJ75 >> > 7 >> > A7 >> > >> > South is declarer in 2S. >> > >> > Opening lead CK for the A. Declarer plays SA and a spade. West cashes >> > the CQ and plays the DJ to A. Declarer cashes DK and plays D9, covered >> > and ruffed. So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around, >> > so it appears that the position is: >> > >> > >> > S/- T >> > 843 >> > 986 >> > -- >> > -- -- >> > QT2 A96 >> > -- 54 >> > 984 J >> > 987 >> > KJ7 >> > -- >> > -- >> > >> > Declarer crosses to the dummy with a trump, calls for the D9, 8 and 6 >> > to >> > discard 3 hearts and is about to claim the last tricks with top trumps >> > when somebody wakes up. Director! >> > >> > Now what? Which law applies here? >> > >> > Henk >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Henk Uijterwaal Email: >> > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net >> > RIPE Network Coordination Centre >> > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk >> > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 >> > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 >> > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> > In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth. (Ian >> > Curtis) >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blml mailing list >> > blml@rtflb.org >> > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blml mailing list >> blml@rtflb.org >> http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Henk Uijterwaal Email: > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth. (Ian > Curtis) > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From MAILER-DAEMON@wanadoo.fr Tue Sep 28 15:13:41 2004 From: MAILER-DAEMON@wanadoo.fr (Mail Delivery System) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:13:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [blml] Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender Message-ID: <20040928141341.0A4CE180020A@mwinf0306.wanadoo.fr> This is a MIME-encapsulated message. --832E418000C3.1096380821/wanadoo.fr Content-Description: Notification Content-Type: text/plain This is the SMTP Server program at host wanadoo.fr. I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please send mail to If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. 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In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:58:58 +0200." Message-ID: <200409281554.IAA07426@mailhub.irvine.com> Henk wrote: > This one comes from a Dutch mailing list: > > S/- T32 > 843 > AK986 > T6 > KQ J6 > QT2 A96 > JT Q5432 > KQ9842 J53 > A98754 > KJ75 > 7 > A7 > > South is declarer in 2S. > > Opening lead CK for the A. Declarer plays SA and a spade. West cashes > the CQ and plays the DJ to A. Declarer cashes DK and plays D9, covered > and ruffed. So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around, > so it appears that the position is: > > > S/- T > 843 > 986 > -- > -- -- > QT2 A96 > -- 54 > 984 J > 987 > KJ7 > -- > -- > > Declarer crosses to the dummy with a trump, calls for the D9, 8 and 6 to > discard 3 hearts and is about to claim the last tricks with top trumps > when somebody wakes up. Director! > > Now what? Which law applies here? L65A. Dummy violated this law, there's no penalty prescribed for violating the law, the opponents were damaged, so we adjust by using L84E. It appears that we've had more than one discussion about cases where a player (not necessarily dummy) plays a card that was played to a previous trick. The Laws don't appear to cover that situation at all, but they should. This seems to me to be a serious omission. -- Adam From B.Schelen@IAE.NL Tue Sep 28 18:16:04 2004 From: B.Schelen@IAE.NL (Ben Schelen) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:16:04 +0200 Subject: [blml] Which law? References: <200409281554.IAA07426@mailhub.irvine.com> Message-ID: <008301c4a57e$ebe60840$84053dd4@c6l8v1> > > > > > > Declarer crosses to the dummy with a trump, calls for the D9, 8 and 6 to > > discard 3 hearts and is about to claim the last tricks with top trumps > > when somebody wakes up. Director! > > > > Now what? Which law applies here? > > L65A. Dummy violated this law, there's no penalty prescribed for > violating the law, the opponents were damaged, so we adjust by using > L84E. > > It appears that we've had more than one discussion about cases where a > player (not necessarily dummy) plays a card that was played to a > previous trick. The Laws don't appear to cover that situation at all, > but they should. This seems to me to be a serious omission. > > > Law 65A describes normal procedure. But there is a special Law67B1b that gives a strange solution. Maybe it leads to Law64C. IIRC we had some time ago the idee that the D9 not faced down was not a D9 anymore but like a clean handkerchief that cannot replace a card. Ben From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 08:34:03 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:34:03 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling Message-ID: <415A656B.8090509@hdw.be> This is the story of one board played at the Welsh Invitational Tournament last weekend. I had the immense pleasure of being invited to direct this event, which featured 16 "international" pairs from all 5 home nations. This story is rather complicated. It features no less than 4 pairs, which I shall nominate A, B, C and D, and it contains a number of decisions the TD shall have to make, some of which may well create some discussion. For that reason, I shall split the story in a number of posts, so you will need to read all opf them in order to get e full recount. Brace yourselves. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 08:39:52 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:39:52 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 1 Message-ID: <415A66C8.1000007@hdw.be> The tournament was played as a barometer, with 8 tables. The movement was indicated by guidecards played on each table. Every guidecard contained the pair numbers of the pairs expected in each round, and mentioned where those pairs should move to for the next round. The first pair that enters our story, and who will shall call pair A, have just finished playing round 2 at table three. They read the guidecard which mentions: "NS move to EW table". This is a small mistake by the director (not me) because the table number is missing. It should say "NS move to EW table 5". Pair A think the move is to change to EW at the present table, and so they move to EW table 3. They do not check the list of expected pairs, so they do not notice the error and are seated at the wrong table. Do you consider this an error by this pair - will they be entitled to Average plus or minus when later they should need to miss a board? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 08:42:32 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:42:32 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 2 Message-ID: <415A6768.8060909@hdw.be> recap: Pair A are seated at table 3EW, when they should in fact be at table 5EW. Next in our story enter pair B. They are the correct NS pair at table 3. They sit down. They forget to check whether the opponents they need to face in this round, as indicated on the table guide card, are in fact the people (pair A) that are sitting there. Do you think pair B are at fault? Should they get Average plus or minus when they should miss a board? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 08:54:02 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:54:02 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 3 Message-ID: <415A6A1A.4040002@hdw.be> recap: at table 3 are seated pairs B (NS) and A (EW). B is seated correctly, A should not be at this table. The players start playing board 17 (a correct board) 17 93 N/no A875 Q98543 3 87652 KQJT 9643 KJ 7 AJ62 AJ5 987 A4 QT6 KT KQT642 The bidding starts : W N E S Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di 1NT = 15-17 the hesitation before South's Pass will never be acknowkledged (because it will never be important to refute it) but EW tell the director it has been there. Player Bs' further actions will be enough for the TD to assume that there has indeed been a hesitation. However, all this is not important, as now the mistake is discovered. Pair C turn up, who are the real EW pair at this table. The Director is called and the facts about the wrong guidecard are revealed. What to do about the board that has been started. I have meanwhile been told (by Anne, thanks Anne) that there is an interesting question here: Does Law 15 apply? Read the start to law 15: L15C: If, during the auction period, the Director discovers that a contestant is playing a board not designated for him to play in the current round ..." This board is designated for all pairs during this round, as it is barometer? Do you think L15 applies? If not, what law then? Anyway, I applied L15C and took pair A off table 3, told them to go to table 5, and asked then not to start board 17 before I got there. I told pair C to sit down and restart board 17. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 09:15:12 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:15:12 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 4 Message-ID: <415A6F10.2060607@hdw.be> recap: Pairs A (incorrect) and B (correct) have started bidding board 17 when Pair C turn up to take their correct place. The bidding has started: 17 93 N/no A875 Q98543 3 87652 KQJT 9643 KJ 7 AJ62 AJ5 987 A4 QT6 KT KQT642 W N E S Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di 1NT = 15-17 Pairs C and A sit down. They are 2 top pairs. After explaining the rules, the new East indicates that he'd prefer Average Plus by (jokingly) taking out the 7NT bidding card. Is this allowed? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 09:18:50 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:18:50 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 5 Message-ID: <415A6FEA.4090809@hdw.be> recap: the first bidding has gone: W N E S Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di 1NT = 15-17 A new bidding begins: W N E S Cw Bn Ce Bs Pass 1NT 1NT = 14-16 Is this a bidding which 'differs in any way from the corresponding ...'? Anyway, South tells the Director (and the table) that it differs enormously, since he had passed over the 15-17 but feels he should bid 2Cl over the 14-16. I think we can agree that even if we could allow the small change of meaning to not interfere with the playing of the board, we cannot ask a player to repeat his calls if the meaning has changed even a little bit. So I cancelled this board and awarded Average Plus to both sides (pair C obviously so - they are in no way at wrong -- pair B subject to the discussion in post 2) -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 09:22:56 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:22:56 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 6 Message-ID: <415A70E0.9050800@hdw.be> Let's now switch attention to table 5. At this table is seated pair D, correctly as NS. Now arrive pair A, who will seat EW. They have meanwhile played one other board, but now the TD arrives to help them get through board 17. recap: pair A have already started this board, and the bidding has gone: 17 93 N/no A875 Q98543 3 87652 KQJT 9643 KJ 7 AJ62 AJ5 987 A4 QT6 KT KQT642 W N E S Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di 1NT = 15-17 A second auction starts, with pair A obliged to make the same calls: W N E S Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di at which point pair A say the bidding has indeed gone the same as before. "including the hesitation?" asks the TD. "including the hesitation" say pair A. No comment from pair D about this hesitation. So the board has now become playable has it not? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 09:28:20 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:28:20 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 Message-ID: <415A7224.8090308@hdw.be> recap: Pair A has started bidding the board once, and then a second time, and the bidding has gone the same way twice: 17 93 N/no A875 Q98543 3 87652 KQJT 9643 KJ 7 AJ62 AJ5 987 A4 QT6 KT KQT642 W N E S Aw Dn Ae Ds Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di and the bidding continues: Dble All Pass North makes 8 tricks and writes down +180. Nothing more is heard about the board until the end of the round, when East calls the Director to investigate the 2 Diamond bid. East says he would have also called on pair B who bid like this, and now he wants to call on pair D who bid the same. Do you consider that the exchange between players and Director during the second auction: "including the hesitation?" asks the TD. "including the hesitation" say pair A. No comment from pair D. constitutes a "reservation of rights"? is the fact the the Director has witnessed the (second) hesitation of importance? Should we deal with this hesitation and possible UI? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 09:33:15 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:33:15 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 8 Message-ID: <415A734B.6040605@hdw.be> recap: 17 93 N/no A875 Q98543 3 87652 KQJT 9643 KJ 7 AJ62 AJ5 987 A4 QT6 KT KQT642 W N E S Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 The Director has witnessed the hesitation. When questioned: North gives the following reasons for his bid of 2Di: - I am a passed hand - I want a diamond lead - I did not notice a hesitation Ruling? Sidebar: at a later stage, North introduces an additional argument: since East-West were obliged to repeat their auction, they bid quite quickly (EW refute this, but that hardly matters), so my partner should be allowed a few extra seconds and I did not think he took too long. Sidebar 2: North from the original table (player Bn), who also bid 2Di, had a different argument for his call - I have passed and we play weak 2's in diamonds, so my partner now knows I have something barring me from opening 2Di, in this case the 4 hearts. -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 09:38:10 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:38:10 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 Message-ID: <415A7472.7010102@hdw.be> recap: 17 93 N/no A875 Q98543 3 87652 KQJT 9643 KJ 7 AJ62 AJ5 987 A4 QT6 KT KQT642 W N E S Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 This is a very friendly tournament, even if of high level. The Director does not want to have to send either pair into appeal, so he chooses to call together an appeal committee of his own. Some questions have since been raised about the naming of such a committee. Anne has voiced the opinion that if the Director does not give a ruling, the committee should not be called an Appeal Committee. My opinion is that if you want to be pedantic about such naming, I can easily write down a ruling (say -420 or -570), so what's the point? What do you think? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 09:42:42 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:42:42 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 Message-ID: <415A7582.8030004@hdw.be> (I hope your computers don't thread alphabetically - this comes after 9, not after 1) recap: 17 93 N/no A875 Q98543 3 87652 KQJT 9643 KJ 7 AJ62 AJ5 987 A4 QT6 KT KQT642 W N E S Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 The Director has witnessed the hesitation. An Appeal Committee is convened to render the final decision: North gave the following reasons for his bid of 2Di: - I am a passed hand - I want a diamond lead - I did not notice a hesitation North adds, in Committee, that his opponents had bid quickly because they were obliged to bid the hand in the same way as they had before, so his partner's hesitation did not convey any meaning to him. The Appeal Committee discovered one more fact the Director had not considered before: if North had not called 2 Diamonds, the board would have had to be cancelled anyway. The Appeal Committee came out with a ruling that the result should stand, basing its decision (probably among others) that East's double contributed to the bad result. He could easily have bid 2Sp and score a normal result. What do you think? -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 09:58:21 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:58:21 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 3 In-Reply-To: <415A6A1A.4040002@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000101c4a602$78c2e340$6900a8c0@WINXP> Herman, This story describes a way of playing competitions with which we have = been very familiar in Norway (and in fact in Scandinavia) for at least some = forty years now. Barometer movement is the "standard" in competitions for = pairs with fields of more than say 7 tables and even in many cases also for smaller fields.=20 We also have developed standard procedures for irregularities of the = kind you describe, but interestingly enough we shall probably change these procedures slightly due in fact to recent discussions here on blml. = Until now we have applied law 15 on incorrectly seated pairs but I expect that = in the future we shall instead just order play to continue and order the = pair who finds their seats occupied (Pair C) to temporarily for this round = take the seats where the incorrectly seated pair should have been (EW table = 5). A major point is indeed that the same boards are played at every table during the same round so literally Law 15 does not apply. Just swapping = the two involved pairs for this round is a small matter which can easily be handled in the scoring, and it seems to be the solution with the least impact on the competition. (There is no law in the book to explicitly = cover this situation if we agree that Law 15 is inapplicable). Who are to blame? This system is so well established that misprinted = guide cards hardly ever occur any more. In your case where the error was a = direct consequence of a misprinted guide card we would certainly not blame the players, but even with correct instructions I do not remember any case = where we have imposed any PP on the players who took the wrong seats (and definitely not on their opponents!).=20 However, when applying Law 15 we did award an artificial score of 40% = (A-) to the pair who had taken the wrong seats if the repeated auction(s) on = the same board at the correct table(s) were not identical to their = respective first auctions. (The auction will have to be repeated and monitored at = two different tables when using Law 15 - once for each of the two pairs involved!) Regards Sven > -----Original Message----- > From: blml-admin@rtflb.org [mailto:blml-admin@rtflb.org] On Behalf Of > Herman De Wael > Sent: 29. september 2004 09:54 > To: blml > Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 3 >=20 > recap: at table 3 are seated pairs B (NS) and A (EW). B is seated > correctly, A should not be at this table. >=20 > The players start playing board 17 (a correct board) >=20 > 17 93 > N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 > 87652 KQJT > 9643 KJ > 7 AJ62 > AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 >=20 > The bidding starts : >=20 > W N E S > Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di >=20 > 1NT =3D 15-17 > the hesitation before South's Pass will never be acknowkledged > (because it will never be important to refute it) but EW tell the > director it has been there. Player Bs' further actions will be enough > for the TD to assume that there has indeed been a hesitation. >=20 > However, all this is not important, as now the mistake is discovered. > Pair C turn up, who are the real EW pair at this table. >=20 > The Director is called and the facts about the wrong guidecard are > revealed. > What to do about the board that has been started. >=20 > I have meanwhile been told (by Anne, thanks Anne) that there is an > interesting question here: Does Law 15 apply? >=20 > Read the start to law 15: > L15C: If, during the auction period, the Director discovers that a > contestant is playing a board not designated for him to play in the > current round ..." >=20 > This board is designated for all pairs during this round, as it is > barometer? >=20 > Do you think L15 applies? If not, what law then? >=20 > Anyway, I applied L15C and took pair A off table 3, told them to go to > table 5, and asked then not to start board 17 before I got there. > I told pair C to sit down and restart board 17. >=20 > -- > Herman DE WAEL > Antwerpen Belgium > http://www.hdw.be >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 10:18:10 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:18:10 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 4 In-Reply-To: <415A6F10.2060607@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000201c4a605$3da223e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Herman De Wael > recap: Pairs A (incorrect) and B (correct) have started bidding board ............ > Pairs C and A sit down. They are 2 top pairs. After explaining the > rules, the new East indicates that he'd prefer Average Plus by > (jokingly) taking out the 7NT bidding card. Is this allowed? This situation has been discussed among Directors in Norway. The common opinion seems to be that the Director might award East a solid PP for contempt of the game. Regards Sven From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 10:23:53 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:23:53 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 5 In-Reply-To: <415A6FEA.4090809@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000301c4a606$0a01ef10$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Herman De Wael ........... > recap: the first bidding has gone: >=20 > W N E S > Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di >=20 > 1NT =3D 15-17 >=20 > A new bidding begins: > W N E S > Cw Bn Ce Bs > Pass 1NT >=20 > 1NT =3D 14-16 >=20 > Is this a bidding which 'differs in any way from the corresponding = ...'? >=20 > Anyway, South tells the Director (and the table) that it differs > enormously, since he had passed over the 15-17 but feels he should bid > 2Cl over the 14-16. >=20 > I think we can agree that even if we could allow the small change of > meaning to not interfere with the playing of the board, we cannot ask > a player to repeat his calls if the meaning has changed even a little = bit. >=20 > So I cancelled this board and awarded Average Plus to both sides (pair > C obviously so - they are in no way at wrong -- pair B subject to the > discussion in post 2) We would not consider the 1NT opening on 14-16 necessarily to be any different from 1NT on 15-17, but we would accept South considering the difference sufficient to justify a bid over the weaker version. As B was seated correctly also the first time we would award A+/A+ like = you did. Sven From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 10:30:47 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:30:47 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 6 In-Reply-To: <415A70E0.9050800@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000401c4a607$00568ab0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Herman De Wael > Let's now switch attention to table 5. > At this table is seated pair D, correctly as NS. Now arrive pair A, > who will seat EW. They have meanwhile played one other board, but now > the TD arrives to help them get through board 17. >=20 > recap: pair A have already started this board, and the bidding has = gone: >=20 > 17 93 > N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 > 87652 KQJT > 9643 KJ > 7 AJ62 > AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 >=20 > W N E S > Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di >=20 > 1NT =3D 15-17 >=20 > A second auction starts, with pair A obliged to make the same calls: >=20 > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di >=20 > at which point pair A say the bidding has indeed gone the same as > before. "including the hesitation?" asks the TD. "including the > hesitation" say pair A. No comment from pair D about this hesitation. >=20 > So the board has now become playable has it not? Sure.=20 (I personally think that the existence of the hesitation is immaterial = for whether this auction is identical to the original auction within the = meaning of Law 15 and that the Director should not have asked this particular question). Sven From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 10:39:13 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:39:13 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 In-Reply-To: <415A7224.8090308@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000501c4a608$2e376cf0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Herman De Wael > recap: Pair A has started bidding the board once, and then a second > time, and the bidding has gone the same way twice: >=20 > 17 93 > N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 > 87652 KQJT > 9643 KJ > 7 AJ62 > AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 >=20 > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di >=20 > and the bidding continues: >=20 > Dble All Pass >=20 > North makes 8 tricks and writes down +180. >=20 > Nothing more is heard about the board until the end of the round, when > East calls the Director to investigate the 2 Diamond bid. East says he > would have also called on pair B who bid like this, and now he wants > to call on pair D who bid the same. >=20 > Do you consider that the exchange between players and Director during > the second auction: >=20 > "including the hesitation?" asks the TD. "including the hesitation" > say pair A. No comment from pair D. >=20 > constitutes a "reservation of rights"? > is the fact the the Director has witnessed the (second) hesitation of > importance? > Should we deal with this hesitation and possible UI? I don't understand these developments: If the Director monitored the = auction as he should (and I believe from the story that he did) he had = absolutely no reason to ask for confirmation that the auction was identical, he would already know. He would also know what variations in tempo there had been during this second auction. IMO the (extraneous) communication between the Director and the players = do not constitute any "reservation of rights" but it may constitute a Director's error. Sven=20 From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 10:42:26 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:42:26 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 In-Reply-To: <415A7582.8030004@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000601c4a608$a11f0390$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Herman De Wael > recap: > > 17 93 > N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 > 87652 KQJT > 9643 KJ > 7 AJ62 > AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 > > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 > > The Director has witnessed the hesitation. > An Appeal Committee is convened to render the final decision: > North gave the following reasons for his bid of 2Di: > - I am a passed hand > - I want a diamond lead > - I did not notice a hesitation > North adds, in Committee, that his opponents had bid quickly because > they were obliged to bid the hand in the same way as they had before, > so his partner's hesitation did not convey any meaning to him. > > The Appeal Committee discovered one more fact the Director had not > considered before: if North had not called 2 Diamonds, the board would > have had to be cancelled anyway. > > The Appeal Committee came out with a ruling that the result should > stand, basing its decision (probably among others) that East's double > contributed to the bad result. He could easily have bid 2Sp and score > a normal result. > > What do you think? I cannot help feeling that East attempted a "double shot" Sven From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 10:53:57 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:53:57 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 In-Reply-To: <000501c4a608$2e376cf0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000501c4a608$2e376cf0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <415A8635.8010200@hdw.be> Sven Pran wrote: >>Do you consider that the exchange between players and Director during >>the second auction: >> >>"including the hesitation?" asks the TD. "including the hesitation" >>say pair A. No comment from pair D. >> >>constitutes a "reservation of rights"? >>is the fact the the Director has witnessed the (second) hesitation of >>importance? >>Should we deal with this hesitation and possible UI? > > > I don't understand these developments: If the Director monitored the auction > as he should (and I believe from the story that he did) he had absolutely no > reason to ask for confirmation that the auction was identical, he would > already know. He would also know what variations in tempo there had been > during this second auction. > No he would not. He did not see the first auction, remember? Of course he should have asked what the first auction was, but that is sometimes rather difficult, since there are always other pairs in the vicinity. So I prefer to simply tell them that the auction should be the same and have them tell me afterwards that it was. > IMO the (extraneous) communication between the Director and the players do > not constitute any "reservation of rights" but it may constitute a > Director's error. > Well, if something is said at loud voice, at a bridge table, does it really matter whether it is said to the other pair or to the director? Maybe the wording is different, but I certainly regard a phrase like "I think that pass was a little slow", when stated towards the Director, as a reservation of rights. The opponents also hear it and could comment. They also know the Director has seen it and they should not need to agree. If they subsequently disagree, the Director's own observations should count. > Sven > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From Frances.Hinden@Shell.com Wed Sep 29 10:57:23 2004 From: Frances.Hinden@Shell.com (Hinden, Frances SI-PXS) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:57:23 +0100 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 5 Message-ID: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101816F3C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> recap: the first bidding has gone: W N E S Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) Pass 1NT ..Pass 2Cl 2Di 1NT =3D 15-17 A new bidding begins: W N E S Cw Bn Ce Bs Pass 1NT 1NT =3D 14-16 Is this a bidding which 'differs in any way from the corresponding ...'? ----------------------------------------------- - This is the easiest one of your questions: yes, it is a different = auction. Even if the rest of the auction is identical, N/S have an advantage = during the play that they know East as 15-16 not 15-17 or 14-16. In fact, once I knew = that=20 East had opened 1NT at one of the tables, and that the second EW were = playing a=20 different 1NT range I would say the board is unplayable. NB: Depending on the nature of the competition, I may be more lenient. = I may tell them to go ahead, but when the auction is over, and is identical, = explain to both pairs the UI that NS have and only continue if EW wish to. From t.kooyman@worldonline.nl Wed Sep 29 11:13:12 2004 From: t.kooyman@worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:13:12 +0200 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass References: <000901c4a543$0a7729b0$02b3fea9@ACER> Message-ID: <00d001c4a60c$f71bf740$d3e5f1c3@LNV> Hi Rui, Your question doesn't get much attention when TD's make a mess in Cardiff. It is interesting from a more principal point of view, being not very well covered by the laws. Do we start with the first infraction or with the second? And is this answer a general one or might it depend on the kind of irregularity? I get the idea that my collegues in the drafting committee for the laws like the former, while I am in favour of some distinction without being able to describe that in detail. It seems necessary to describe the desired procedure in the laws. Rui: > South dealer. North passes out of turn. East is looking at his scorecard > and South, thinking for some reason that East had passed, also passes. > > TD! From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 11:44:50 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:44:50 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 In-Reply-To: <415A8635.8010200@hdw.be> Message-ID: <000701c4a611$59080850$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Herman De Wael > Sven Pran wrote: .......... > > I don't understand these developments: If the Director=20 > > monitored the auction as he should (and I believe from > > the story that he did) he had absolutely no reason to=20 > > ask for confirmation that the auction was identical, he > > would already know. He would also know what variations > > in tempo there had been during this second auction. > > >=20 > No he would not. He did not see the first auction, remember? > Of course he should have asked what the first auction was, but that is > sometimes rather difficult, since there are always other pairs in the > vicinity. So I prefer to simply tell them that the auction should be > the same and have them tell me afterwards that it was. We never let the incorrectly seated players leave the first table until = we had written down on paper the entire auction up to the point of interruption! I shall consider failure to do so (securing evidence) to = be an error by the Director. > > IMO the (extraneous) communication between the Director and the > > players do not constitute any "reservation of rights" but it=20 > > may constitute a Director's error. > > >=20 > Well, if something is said at loud voice, at a bridge table, does it > really matter whether it is said to the other pair or to the director? > Maybe the wording is different, but I certainly regard a phrase like > "I think that pass was a little slow", when stated towards the > Director, as a reservation of rights. The opponents also hear it and > could comment. They also know the Director has seen it and they should > not need to agree. If they subsequently disagree, the Director's own > observations should count. Indeed. But the problem as I see it is that it was the Director who at = the second table called attention to the hesitation, not the players. Sven From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 11:56:11 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:56:11 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 5 In-Reply-To: <63DD4A4F97E7DD4FBFDBEEB53EC0B3E101816F3C@lonsc-s-031.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: <000801c4a612$eed1b740$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Hinden, Frances SI-PXS > recap: the first bidding has gone: >=20 > W N E S > Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di >=20 > 1NT =3D 15-17 >=20 > A new bidding begins: > W N E S > Cw Bn Ce Bs > Pass 1NT >=20 > 1NT =3D 14-16 >=20 > Is this a bidding which 'differs in any way from the corresponding = ...'? > ----------------------------------------------- > - This is the easiest one of your questions: yes, it is a different > auction. > Even if the rest of the auction is identical, N/S have an advantage = during > the play > that they know East as 15-16 not 15-17 or 14-16. In fact, once I knew > that > East had opened 1NT at one of the tables, and that the second EW were > playing a > different 1NT range I would say the board is unplayable. This view does indeed have some merits. However, I lean on the = commentaries (EBL 1992) which says:=20 Quote: [....] the Director must treat as "different" [.....] and also any bid = which corresponds in its denomination and level but which has a significantly different meaning than it did in the first auction [.....] end quote. I don't think we can say that a variation in strength of one HCP itself makes the bid *significantly* different, it is for instance within the = slack we may allow based on the player's own judgment. Regards Sven From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 29 12:02:31 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:02:31 +0100 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass References: <000901c4a543$0a7729b0$02b3fea9@ACER> <00d001c4a60c$f71bf740$d3e5f1c3@LNV> Message-ID: <002a01c4a613$d0ea1e10$12330952@AnnesComputer> Tee Hee - I feel at this stage that the limit of my involvement in this was to give Herman Bed and Breakfast. I WAS NOT THERE!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ton Kooijman" To: "Rui Marques" ; Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Pass Pass > Hi Rui, > > Your question doesn't get much attention when TD's make a mess in Cardiff. > It is interesting from a more principal point of view, being not very well > covered by the laws. Do we start with the first infraction or with the > second? And is this answer a general one or might it depend on the kind > of > irregularity? > I get the idea that my collegues in the drafting committee for the laws > like > the former, while I am in favour of some distinction without being able to > describe that in detail. > > It seems necessary to describe the desired procedure in the laws. > > > > Rui: > >> South dealer. North passes out of turn. East is looking at his scorecard >> and South, thinking for some reason that East had passed, also passes. >> >> TD! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk Wed Sep 29 13:13:39 2004 From: gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:13:39 +0100 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 4 In-Reply-To: <415A6F10.2060607@hdw.be> References: <415A6F10.2060607@hdw.be> Message-ID: On 29 Sep 2004, at 09:15, Herman De Wael wrote: > recap: Pairs A (incorrect) and B (correct) have started bidding board > 17 when Pair C turn up to take their correct place. The bidding has > started: > > 17 93 > N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 > 87652 KQJT > 9643 KJ > 7 AJ62 > AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 > > W N E S > Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di > > 1NT = 15-17 > > Pairs C and A sit down. They are 2 top pairs. After explaining the > rules, the new East indicates that he'd prefer Average Plus by > (jokingly) taking out the 7NT bidding card. Is this allowed? The EBU White Book quotes a WBFLC minute as saying: What happens if one of the new pair, having heard the Law, decides he does not really want to play the board, so opens 7NT which he guesses will be a change from the earlier auction? This is unacceptable, and is treated as a violation of Law 74A2. There is no need for the Director to judge the intent of the player: if no satisfactory bridge reason can be found for the call then he applies Law 74A2. The TD informs (or instructs) the players correspondingly. [WBFLC minutes 2001-10-28#6, also 2001-10-30#1] -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk Wed Sep 29 13:15:50 2004 From: gordon@gordonrainsford.co.uk (Gordon Rainsford) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:15:50 +0100 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 6 In-Reply-To: <415A70E0.9050800@hdw.be> References: <415A70E0.9050800@hdw.be> Message-ID: <4D81256E-1211-11D9-9FF0-0003936A6522@gordonrainsford.co.uk> On 29 Sep 2004, at 09:22, Herman De Wael wrote: > Let's now switch attention to table 5. > At this table is seated pair D, correctly as NS. Now arrive pair A, > who will seat EW. They have meanwhile played one other board, but now > the TD arrives to help them get through board 17. > > recap: pair A have already started this board, and the bidding has > gone: > > 17 93 > N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 > 87652 KQJT > 9643 KJ > 7 AJ62 > AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 > > W N E S > Aw Bn Ae Bs (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di > > 1NT = 15-17 > > A second auction starts, with pair A obliged to make the same calls: > > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di > > at which point pair A say the bidding has indeed gone the same as > before. "including the hesitation?" asks the TD. "including the > hesitation" say pair A. No comment from pair D about this hesitation. A hesitation is not a call. > > So the board has now become playable has it not? Yes. -- Gordon Rainsford London UK From ehaa@starpower.net Wed Sep 29 13:21:20 2004 From: ehaa@starpower.net (Eric Landau) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:21:20 -0400 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 In-Reply-To: <415A7582.8030004@hdw.be> References: <415A7582.8030004@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040929081543.02ae24a0@pop.starpower.net> At 04:42 AM 9/29/04, Herman wrote: >recap: > >17 93 >N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 >87652 KQJT >9643 KJ >7 AJ62 >AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 > > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 > >The Director has witnessed the hesitation. >An Appeal Committee is convened to render the final decision: >North gave the following reasons for his bid of 2Di: >- I am a passed hand >- I want a diamond lead >- I did not notice a hesitation >North adds, in Committee, that his opponents had bid quickly because >they were obliged to bid the hand in the same way as they had before, >so his partner's hesitation did not convey any meaning to him. > >The Appeal Committee discovered one more fact the Director had not >considered before: if North had not called 2 Diamonds, the board would >have had to be cancelled anyway. > >The Appeal Committee came out with a ruling that the result should >stand, basing its decision (probably among others) that East's double >contributed to the bad result. He could easily have bid 2Sp and score >a normal result. > >What do you think? I disagree with the reasoning given. That "East's double contributed to the bad result" is irrelevant, unless the committee finds that it was a sufficiently egregious error (or whatever equivalent words are used in Wales) to (in EK's words) "break the connection between the infraction and the damage". East's double may not have been his best choice of call, but, IMO, falls far short of being an egregious error. Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 From t.kooyman@worldonline.nl Wed Sep 29 13:14:56 2004 From: t.kooyman@worldonline.nl (Ton Kooijman) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:14:56 +0200 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass References: <000901c4a543$0a7729b0$02b3fea9@ACER> <00d001c4a60c$f71bf740$d3e5f1c3@LNV> <002a01c4a613$d0ea1e10$12330952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <003001c4a61e$af9d5550$15e9f1c3@LNV> >Anne: > Tee Hee - I feel at this stage that the limit of my involvement in this was > to give Herman Bed and Breakfast. I WAS NOT THERE!!!! > ----- Original Message ----- Did he tell you all this rubbish at breakfast or ? sorry. ton From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 29 13:23:46 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:23:46 +0100 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass References: <000901c4a543$0a7729b0$02b3fea9@ACER> Message-ID: <001c01c4a61f$2ac09e40$12330952@AnnesComputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rui Marques" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:07 AM Subject: [blml] Pass Pass > South dealer. North passes out of turn. East is looking at his scorecard > and South, thinking for some reason that East had passed, also passes. > > TD! > I believe East has his Law 30 right to accept North's pass out of rotation, so Souths pass is cancelled and Law 16C applies. Anne > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 13:36:42 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:36:42 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 In-Reply-To: <000701c4a611$59080850$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <000701c4a611$59080850$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <415AAC5A.4020300@hdw.be> Sven Pran wrote: >>Herman De Wael >>Sven Pran wrote: > > .......... > >>>I don't understand these developments: If the Director >>>monitored the auction as he should (and I believe from >>>the story that he did) he had absolutely no reason to >>>ask for confirmation that the auction was identical, he >>>would already know. He would also know what variations >>>in tempo there had been during this second auction. >>> >> >>No he would not. He did not see the first auction, remember? >>Of course he should have asked what the first auction was, but that is >>sometimes rather difficult, since there are always other pairs in the >>vicinity. So I prefer to simply tell them that the auction should be >>the same and have them tell me afterwards that it was. > > > We never let the incorrectly seated players leave the first table until we > had written down on paper the entire auction up to the point of > interruption! I shall consider failure to do so (securing evidence) to be an > error by the Director. > Well, you 'never' do this, so failure to do this is a mistake. I 'always' trust the players to tell me the auction afterwards, so for me this is not a mistake. > >>>IMO the (extraneous) communication between the Director and the >>>players do not constitute any "reservation of rights" but it >>>may constitute a Director's error. >>> >> >>Well, if something is said at loud voice, at a bridge table, does it >>really matter whether it is said to the other pair or to the director? >>Maybe the wording is different, but I certainly regard a phrase like >>"I think that pass was a little slow", when stated towards the >>Director, as a reservation of rights. The opponents also hear it and >>could comment. They also know the Director has seen it and they should >>not need to agree. If they subsequently disagree, the Director's own >>observations should count. > > > Indeed. But the problem as I see it is that it was the Director who at the > second table called attention to the hesitation, not the players. > No no it was not the complete conversation was "was this the same" "yes _exactly_ the same" (intonation clearly signifying what follows) "including the hesitation?" (intonation as _is that what you meant_) "including the hesitation" (intonation as _yes, definitely!_) I think you understand. It was not the Director who drew attention to the hesitation, it was EW. > Sven > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 13:52:37 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:52:37 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 In-Reply-To: <415AAC5A.4020300@hdw.be> Message-ID: <001b01c4a623$326a25e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> > Herman De Wael > >>Sven Pran wrote: > > > > .......... > > > >>>I don't understand these developments: If the Director > >>>monitored the auction as he should (and I believe from > >>>the story that he did) he had absolutely no reason to > >>>ask for confirmation that the auction was identical, he > >>>would already know. He would also know what variations > >>>in tempo there had been during this second auction. > >>> > >> > >>No he would not. He did not see the first auction, remember? > >>Of course he should have asked what the first auction was, but that = is > >>sometimes rather difficult, since there are always other pairs in = the > >>vicinity. So I prefer to simply tell them that the auction should be > >>the same and have them tell me afterwards that it was. > > > > > > We never let the incorrectly seated players leave the first table = until > we > > had written down on paper the entire auction up to the point of > > interruption! I shall consider failure to do so (securing evidence) = to > be an > > error by the Director. > > >=20 > Well, you 'never' do this, so failure to do this is a mistake. > I 'always' trust the players to tell me the auction afterwards, so for > me this is not a mistake. >=20 > > > >>>IMO the (extraneous) communication between the Director and the > >>>players do not constitute any "reservation of rights" but it > >>>may constitute a Director's error. > >>> > >> > >>Well, if something is said at loud voice, at a bridge table, does it > >>really matter whether it is said to the other pair or to the = director? > >>Maybe the wording is different, but I certainly regard a phrase like > >>"I think that pass was a little slow", when stated towards the > >>Director, as a reservation of rights. The opponents also hear it and > >>could comment. They also know the Director has seen it and they = should > >>not need to agree. If they subsequently disagree, the Director's own > >>observations should count. > > > > > > Indeed. But the problem as I see it is that it was the Director who = at > the > > second table called attention to the hesitation, not the players. > > >=20 > No no it was not > the complete conversation was > "was this the same" > "yes _exactly_ the same" (intonation clearly signifying what follows) > "including the hesitation?" (intonation as _is that what you meant_) > "including the hesitation" (intonation as _yes, definitely!_) > I think you understand. > It was not the Director who drew attention to the hesitation, it was = EW. Well, nothing here changes the fact that had the Director ascertained he knew the original auction before the second auction started then this = entire conversation would have been redundant. How would the Director have ruled if E/W confirmed that the auctions = were identical and then after the board had been played it were revealed that there actually had been a difference between the auctions (which E/W had overlooked)? I cannot see any reason whatsoever for the Director not to secure the = facts from the first table before releasing the incorrectly seated players = from this table? My opinion remains that much of the problem(s) here has been caused by = the Director. Sorry! Sven From svenpran@online.no Wed Sep 29 13:58:55 2004 From: svenpran@online.no (Sven Pran) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:58:55 +0200 Subject: FW: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 Message-ID: <001c01c4a624$13bc0860$6900a8c0@WINXP> Pardon me, I used the wrong words; please read below: "How would the Director have ruled if E/W confirmed that the auctions = were identical and then after the board had been played it were claimed that there actually had been a difference between the auctions (which E/W in = case had overlooked)?" My point is that the Director afterwards is unable to ascertain for sure whether the auctions were identical or not - claim against claim. Sven -----Original Message----- From: Sven Pran [mailto:svenpran@online.no]=20 Sent: 29. september 2004 14:53 To: blml Subject: RE: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 > Herman De Wael > >>Sven Pran wrote: > > > > .......... > > > >>>I don't understand these developments: If the Director > >>>monitored the auction as he should (and I believe from > >>>the story that he did) he had absolutely no reason to > >>>ask for confirmation that the auction was identical, he > >>>would already know. He would also know what variations > >>>in tempo there had been during this second auction. > >>> > >> > >>No he would not. He did not see the first auction, remember? > >>Of course he should have asked what the first auction was, but that = is > >>sometimes rather difficult, since there are always other pairs in = the > >>vicinity. So I prefer to simply tell them that the auction should be > >>the same and have them tell me afterwards that it was. > > > > > > We never let the incorrectly seated players leave the first table = until > we > > had written down on paper the entire auction up to the point of > > interruption! I shall consider failure to do so (securing evidence) = to > be an > > error by the Director. > > >=20 > Well, you 'never' do this, so failure to do this is a mistake. > I 'always' trust the players to tell me the auction afterwards, so for > me this is not a mistake. >=20 > > > >>>IMO the (extraneous) communication between the Director and the > >>>players do not constitute any "reservation of rights" but it > >>>may constitute a Director's error. > >>> > >> > >>Well, if something is said at loud voice, at a bridge table, does it > >>really matter whether it is said to the other pair or to the = director? > >>Maybe the wording is different, but I certainly regard a phrase like > >>"I think that pass was a little slow", when stated towards the > >>Director, as a reservation of rights. The opponents also hear it and > >>could comment. They also know the Director has seen it and they = should > >>not need to agree. If they subsequently disagree, the Director's own > >>observations should count. > > > > > > Indeed. But the problem as I see it is that it was the Director who = at > the > > second table called attention to the hesitation, not the players. > > >=20 > No no it was not > the complete conversation was > "was this the same" > "yes _exactly_ the same" (intonation clearly signifying what follows) > "including the hesitation?" (intonation as _is that what you meant_) > "including the hesitation" (intonation as _yes, definitely!_) > I think you understand. > It was not the Director who drew attention to the hesitation, it was = EW. Well, nothing here changes the fact that had the Director ascertained he knew the original auction before the second auction started then this = entire conversation would have been redundant. The following paragraph corrected by a replacement at the top of this = post: [How would the Director have ruled if E/W confirmed that the auctions = were identical and then after the board had been played it were revealed that there actually had been a difference between the auctions (which E/W had overlooked)?] I cannot see any reason whatsoever for the Director not to secure the = facts from the first table before releasing the incorrectly seated players = from this table? My opinion remains that much of the problem(s) here has been caused by = the Director. Sorry! Sven From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 14:02:15 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:02:15 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 In-Reply-To: <001b01c4a623$326a25e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <001b01c4a623$326a25e0$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <415AB257.8000009@hdw.be> Sven Pran wrote: > > I cannot see any reason whatsoever for the Director not to secure the facts > from the first table before releasing the incorrectly seated players from > this table? > I can see a very good reason for this: the third pair are standing next to this table, and they need to play the board without knowing what the previous auction was! > My opinion remains that much of the problem(s) here has been caused by the > Director. Sorry! > apologies accepted but opinion not! -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 14:44:10 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:44:10 +0200 Subject: FW: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 7 In-Reply-To: <001c01c4a624$13bc0860$6900a8c0@WINXP> References: <001c01c4a624$13bc0860$6900a8c0@WINXP> Message-ID: <415ABC2A.3020804@hdw.be> Sven Pran wrote: > Pardon me, I used the wrong words; please read below: > > "How would the Director have ruled if E/W confirmed that the auctions were > identical and then after the board had been played it were claimed that > there actually had been a difference between the auctions (which E/W in case > had overlooked)?" > > My point is that the Director afterwards is unable to ascertain for sure > whether the auctions were identical or not - claim against claim. > except for the fact that there are 2 pairs who have made the first auction. Surely it is exactly as difficult to get the first auction afterwards than at the time. or rather less so, since in the first instance people are waiting to be seated and to get to their real table. I don't like it when my actions are criticized not out of legality but out of practice. I'm trying to get a tournament to be played, and if that means I can spend a little less time on things that might matter later than perhaps is good for the legal side of things, then I spend that less time. Far better to get the people seated and playing the board the second time, than to worry about the first bidding sequence. And don't forget Sven - there was no problem in ascertaining the first bidding sequence - I got that twice, from different sources, and the stories matched. > Sven > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 16:50:28 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:50:28 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 4 In-Reply-To: <200409291504.i8TF4N5U013619@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409291504.i8TF4N5U013619@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <415AD9C4.7080207@hdw.be> Hello Steve, Steve Willner wrote: > Sorry, Herman... good thing I sent only to you. I was the one who > misunderstood the problem. Gordon and Sven are correct. The newcomers > to the table can try to guess a different action than the previous pair > but cannot "go wild" per the WBFLC minute. > that is how I interpret it as well. > I think 14-16 NT is not the same as 15-17. L15C says "differs in any > way," which is very stringent. You might have checked the respective > convention cards and saved a bit of time. Once the NT ranges are found > to differ, the board becomes unplayable. > this is two different points of view - which one do you mean: - "differs in any way" is very stringent, so any difference in meaning is already enough - differences in meaning are acceptable, but 14-16 and 15-17 are too far apart Let me explain what I mean. If we rule that any difference in meaning renders the board unplayable, then no board is ever playable. Even an initial pass does not have the same meaning from one player to the next. One player will open a particular hand, another will pass. So their passes will carry slightly different meanings. So a small difference in meaning MUST be accepted. IMO a difference of one point in an otherwise similar system should be acceptable. Certainly a weak two, when described as 6-10 or 7-11, is the same thing. Now it may be your opinion that 14-16 and 15-17 are too far apart, in which case I accept as valid your opinion, though I do not share it. But if your opinion is that "in any way" is stringent, then I do not accept that opinion as valid. If you understand my meanings. > Cheers. > > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Wed Sep 29 19:07:37 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:07:37 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 4 In-Reply-To: <200409291627.i8TGRlJ5019517@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409291627.i8TGRlJ5019517@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <415AF9E9.5020500@hdw.be> Well Steve, I think you're disagreeing with me 'out of course". You say you intend the one meaning, and then you go and defend the other one, the one I am also leaning towards. Steve Willner wrote: >>- "differs in any way" is very stringent, so any difference in meaning >>is already enough > > > Sorry... the above is what I meant. Probably there is some difference well, maybe we have a different understanding of the word stringent then. > that is too subtle to matter. After all, as you say below, no two > players will ever have identical bidding judgment, so there is always > some tiny but indefinable difference, and that's not enough. But once > the difference is definable, in my opinion the board is unplayable. > yes, and then you go on to write: > >>If we rule that any difference in meaning renders the board >>unplayable, then no board is ever playable. Even an initial pass does >>not have the same meaning from one player to the next. One player will >>open a particular hand, another will pass. So their passes will carry >>slightly different meanings. So a small difference in meaning MUST be >>accepted. > > > So far, we agree. > > >>IMO a difference of one point in an otherwise similar system >>should be acceptable. Certainly a weak two, when described as 6-10 or >>7-11, is the same thing. > > > I think you would have to inquire further here. The problem is that > nobody evaluates weak twos by point ranges. If there is a substantial > difference in suit quality requirement or outside strength requirement > or limit on (other) major suit length, I think the difference is > enough. But I agree that a one-HCP range difference by itself would > not make the weak two-bids different. > see? you do agree with my second interpretation. one point is not enough, except in 1NT opening. So in fact you are agreeing with me that it should not be so stringent. We only disagree as to where the boundary lies. For you it is just below the 1NT opening range, to me it is just above it. And probably I might put the boundary differently in different circumstances. > >>Now it may be your opinion that 14-16 and 15-17 are too far apart, in >>which case I accept as valid your opinion, though I do not share it. > > > For a 1NT bid, people do evaluate by point range. Here I think 1 HCP > difference is enough. > you may be right. > >>But if your opinion is that "in any way" is stringent, then I do not >>accept that opinion as valid. > > > Well, "stringent" is a relative term. I think we agree that the law > is poorly defined, and there is some judgment involved. I guess > the question is whether the difference is enough to foresee either > opponents or partner bidding differently. We can certainly foresee > changing responses to 1NT depending on 1 HCP range change and perhaps a > change in overcalling (as was claimed in the present deal, though I am > skeptical). With weak two-bids, a 1 HCP change would not by itself > lead to different followup bidding, but changes in other requirements > might well do so. > > Anyway, this is my view. It is not the only possible view, but I > think it is logical. > let's also think about it from the following point of view: If two pairs want to play the board, and the bidding starts totally different, we have no choice but to cancel the board. But if it starts with a 1NT both times, we can allow it even if the ranges are slightly different. OTOH if two pairs do not want to play the board, then they will even try to find reasons why one 15-17 is not the same as another one. And should we force them? > Personally, I don't like the whole concept of repeating an auction with > a new pair involved. I would rather the rules either allowed the deal > to be completed with the wrong pairs, once it is started, or required > it to be cancelled. Maybe in 2015... > I hope they deal with it in 2006. It's certainly been in my set of suggestions for Grattan's notebook. > Cheers. > > > Cheers. > > > > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 29 20:26:10 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:26:10 +0100 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 References: <415A7582.8030004@hdw.be> <6.1.1.1.0.20040929081543.02ae24a0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <001901c4a65a$2cd9df80$12330952@AnnesComputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Landau" To: "Bridge Laws Discussion List" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 > At 04:42 AM 9/29/04, Herman wrote: > >>recap: >> >>17 93 >>N/no A875 >> Q98543 >> 3 >>87652 KQJT >>9643 KJ >>7 AJ62 >>AJ5 987 >> A4 >> QT6 >> KT >> KQT642 >> >> W N E S >> Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) >> Pass 1NT ..Pass >> 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 >> >>The Director has witnessed the hesitation. >>An Appeal Committee is convened to render the final decision: >>North gave the following reasons for his bid of 2Di: >>- I am a passed hand >>- I want a diamond lead >>- I did not notice a hesitation >>North adds, in Committee, that his opponents had bid quickly because >>they were obliged to bid the hand in the same way as they had before, >>so his partner's hesitation did not convey any meaning to him. >> >>The Appeal Committee discovered one more fact the Director had not >>considered before: if North had not called 2 Diamonds, the board would >>have had to be cancelled anyway. >> >>The Appeal Committee came out with a ruling that the result should >>stand, basing its decision (probably among others) that East's double >>contributed to the bad result. He could easily have bid 2Sp and score >>a normal result. >> >>What do you think? > > I disagree with the reasoning given. That "East's double contributed > to the bad result" is irrelevant, unless the committee finds that it > was a sufficiently egregious error (or whatever equivalent words are > used in Wales) to (in EK's words) "break the connection between the > infraction and the damage". East's double may not have been his best > choice of call, but, IMO, falls far short of being an egregious error. > > > Eric Landau ehaa@starpower.net > 1107 Dale Drive (301) 608-0347 > Silver Spring MD 20910-1607 > > > a) What appeals committee was that? b) The standard adopted in Wales is that of WBF Code of Practice for Appeals Committees Page 3 Score adjustment with the word 'irrational' removed. Anne From grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu Thu Sep 30 02:05:48 2004 From: grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:05:48 -0400 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass In-Reply-To: <000901c4a543$0a7729b0$02b3fea9@ACER> References: <000901c4a543$0a7729b0$02b3fea9@ACER> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040929210313.01e3edb8@mail.comcast.net> At 06:07 AM 9/28/2004, Rui Marques wrote: >South dealer. North passes out of turn. East is looking at his scorecard >and South, thinking for some reason that East had passed, also passes. North's infraction must be dealt with first. If East accepts North's pass, then South passed out of turn at RHO's turn to call, so East can bid whatever he wants and South and North must each pass once. If East does not accept North's pass, then the bidding reverts to the player whose turn it was to call, North must pass at his first opportunity, and I would say that South has already passed and his pass must stand. From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Thu Sep 30 02:13:07 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:13:07 -0400 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass In-Reply-To: <200409291521.i8TFLa9Z014779@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409291521.i8TFLa9Z014779@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <415B5DA3.1010500@cfa.harvard.edu> From: "Ton Kooijman" > Do we start with the first infraction or with the > second? And is this answer a general one or might it depend on the kind of > irregularity? Some years ago, BLML discussed a similar case. I am not sure there was unanimous agreement -- when is there ever? -- but the answer that seemed to be accepted (and made sense to me, FWIW) was to start with the first infraction, then deal with the second one. The problem, of course, is explaining each branch of the choices to the players. I hope the new Laws give us some general procedures to use. If there need to be exceptions for specific infractions, that's OK, but life will be simpler if the number of exceptions is small. That is to say, a tiny gain in fairness may not justify a large increase in complexity. From grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu Thu Sep 30 02:17:15 2004 From: grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:17:15 -0400 Subject: [blml] Which law? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040929210901.01f3af58@mail.comcast.net> At 04:58 AM 9/28/2004, Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC) wrote: >This one comes from a Dutch mailing list: > >S/- T32 > 843 > AK986 > T6 >KQ J6 >QT2 A96 >JT Q5432 >KQ9842 J53 > A98754 > KJ75 > 7 > A7 > >South is declarer in 2S. > >Opening lead CK for the A. Declarer plays SA and a spade. West cashes >the CQ and plays the DJ to A. Declarer cashes DK and plays D9, covered >and ruffed. So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around, >so it appears that the position is: > > >S/- T > 843 > 986 > -- >-- -- >QT2 A96 >-- 54 >984 J > 987 > KJ7 > -- > -- > >Declarer crosses to the dummy with a trump, calls for the D9, 8 and 6 to >discard 3 hearts and is about to claim the last tricks with top trumps >when somebody wakes up. Director! > >Now what? Which law applies here? The D9 was played to the seventh trick, so it was not in dummy at the eighth trick, despite being on the card table. L46E4 says that the call of the D9 was void and declarer can designate any legal card from dummy, but he didn't. Since dummy played no card to the trick, East led to the trick, and his lead was the D4, which won the trick. East then accepted dummy's D8 lead out of turn to the next trick, so dummy won the D8 and D6 tricks. L67B1 now applies when the defective trick was discovered; dummy must substitute a card (which needs to be a heart, since that is all he has left) but the revoke is not subject to penalty. L64C applies to the revoke by dummy, to restore equity. Had there been no irregularity, dummy would have led 86 of diamonds, East would take HA, and declarer would get the last three tricks. Since this is the table result, equity is served, and the defenders get one trick. From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Thu Sep 30 02:26:43 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:26:43 -0400 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 In-Reply-To: <200409291519.i8TFJigH014664@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409291519.i8TFJigH014664@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <415B60D3.7060106@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: Herman De Wael > The Appeal Committee discovered one more fact the Director had not > considered before: if North had not called 2 Diamonds, the board would > have had to be cancelled anyway. This is an interesting case. FWIW, the 2D bid looks illegal to me. Why isn't pass a LA? But if so, the board has to be cancelled, and the OS get avg+, their score if the infraction had not occurred. (They keep their table score, if it is worse. Herman didn't tell us how many matchpoints +180 is worth; maybe all of them.) The NOS for the (IMHO) L16A infraction will get avg or avg- if the board is cancelled. (Surely they are at least partially at fault for not checking the table card, so I can't see avg+.) The interesting thing here is that it appears correct to substitute an artificial score for a table score if you agree with me about pass being a LA. I don't think I've seen that before. > The Appeal Committee came out with a ruling that the result should > stand, basing its decision (probably among others) that East's double > contributed to the bad result. He could easily have bid 2Sp and score > a normal result. While I sympathize with the AC's desire to keep a bridge result and avoid an artificial score, this reasoning is wrong (as others have noted). Even if they consider double "wild and gambling," they should still adjust for the OS. More generally, the AC is saying that "Even after the infraction, the NOS should have got it right," but that is the wrong question. They should instead be asking (once they decide there is an infraction), "What would have happened if the infraction had not occurred?" We know the answer to that! I am surprised Herman would let them get away with this decision. In fact, I am surprised he convened an AC. It seems to me he should have consulted about LA's (with no mention of other circumstances, though no doubt the players will guess) and then made a ruling. From grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu Thu Sep 30 02:28:34 2004 From: grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:28:34 -0400 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 8 In-Reply-To: <415A734B.6040605@hdw.be> References: <415A734B.6040605@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040929212131.01e463f0@mail.comcast.net> At 04:33 AM 9/29/2004, Herman De Wael wrote: >recap: > >17 93 >N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 >87652 KQJT >9643 KJ >7 AJ62 >AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 > > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 > >The Director has witnessed the hesitation. >When questioned: North gives the following reasons for his bid of 2Di: >- I am a passed hand >- I want a diamond lead >- I did not notice a hesitation > >Ruling? This is a standard ruling. I think pass is a LA given the broken suit, and 2D is suggested over pass by the hesitation. Since the hesitation is established (TD was there), the bid is disallowed. >Sidebar: at a later stage, North introduces an additional argument: since >East-West were obliged to repeat their auction, they bid quite quickly (EW >refute this, but that hardly matters), so my partner should be allowed a >few extra seconds and I did not think he took too long. Irrelevant here. While East may have bid 1NT immediately rather than in the three seconds after counting his points, South would not have decided what to do over a 1NT opening in those three seconds. If North had opened 3S and East had made a quick enforced pass, South would be entitled to the time that East would have taken. >Sidebar 2: North from the original table (player Bn), who also bid 2Di, >had a different argument for his call - I have passed and we play weak 2's >in diamonds, so my partner now knows I have something barring me from >opening 2Di, in this case the 4 hearts. While the bid is slightly more clearly defined, I still don't think that it affects whether pass is a LA. If North had a better suit, pass would not be an LA, but with the actual North hand, pass is still a LA. From grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu Thu Sep 30 02:30:57 2004 From: grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:30:57 -0400 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 In-Reply-To: <415A7472.7010102@hdw.be> References: <415A7472.7010102@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040929212911.01f68f58@mail.comcast.net> At 04:38 AM 9/29/2004, Herman De Wael wrote: >recap: >17 93 >N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 >87652 KQJT >9643 KJ >7 AJ62 >AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 > > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 > >This is a very friendly tournament, even if of high level. The Director >does not want to have to send either pair into appeal, so he chooses to >call together an appeal committee of his own. > >Some questions have since been raised about the naming of such a >committee. Anne has voiced the opinion that if the Director does not give >a ruling, the committee should not be called an Appeal Committee. My >opinion is that if you want to be pedantic about such naming, I can easily >write down a ruling (say -420 or -570), so what's the point? L83 allows the TD to appeal his own ruling, so I would call it an appeals committee. From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Thu Sep 30 02:37:53 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:37:53 -0400 Subject: [blml] Concession refused??? In-Reply-To: <200409241744.i8OHin4n017320@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409241744.i8OHin4n017320@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <415B6371.7060008@cfa.harvard.edu> From: "Marvin L. French" > East has claimed (L68A), and play ceases. ...Anything South says or does after > East's claim is irrelevant, N/S get all three tricks. Thanks to Marv, who was most succinct, and all others who responded. A simple book ruling after all! (Though it is a concession and L68B, but it comes to the same thing.) What actually happened, as David G. figured out, was that South thought he had taken one more trick than he really had. South thus misunderstood East's statement as claiming one trick and conceding two and stated a line of play that would give that result. All quite simple, once the right answer is pointed out. (I'm reminded of the British international/rubber bridge player who claimed, then got mixed up when "playing it out.") A few people seemed to think East was trying something on. It hardly seems likely that a villain would concede all the remaining tricks. From adam@irvine.com Thu Sep 30 02:39:44 2004 From: adam@irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:39:44 -0700 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:05:48 EDT." <6.1.2.0.0.20040929210313.01e3edb8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200409300139.SAA17880@mailhub.irvine.com> David Grabiner wrote: > At 06:07 AM 9/28/2004, Rui Marques wrote: > >South dealer. North passes out of turn. East is looking at his scorecard > >and South, thinking for some reason that East had passed, also passes. > > North's infraction must be dealt with first. If East accepts North's pass, > then South passed out of turn at RHO's turn to call, so East can bid > whatever he wants and South and North must each pass once. If East does > not accept North's pass, then the bidding reverts to the player whose turn > it was to call, North must pass at his first opportunity, and I would say > that South has already passed and his pass must stand. The Laws seem to be silent about this last part. In general, there seems to be nothing in the Laws that says what happens if an irregularity occurs, and another irregularity occurs before attention is drawn to the first irregularity. In some cases, if the second irregularity is committed by the other side, the action by the opposing side forfeits the right to penalize; but is this always the case? (Suppose it's South's turn to call, but North calls instead, and then West calls out of turn...L29A doesn't apply here.) But in the case where two irregularities are committed by the same side, as in this example, the Laws appear to be totally silent on what happens to the second irregularity after the first is dealt with. Another omission that probably ought to be looked into. -- Adam From swillner@cfa.harvard.edu Thu Sep 30 02:47:20 2004 From: swillner@cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:47:20 -0400 Subject: [blml] Which law? In-Reply-To: <200409281526.i8SFQsfH023098@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <200409281526.i8SFQsfH023098@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <415B65A8.8070309@cfa.harvard.edu> > From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" > So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around,... [and D9 is "played" later] Easy one. L65A, 12A1, 12C2, maybe 12C3. Adjust to the result if dummy had turned the card over as and when required (usual "likely" and "at all probable"). Treating this infraction as a revoke or lead out of turn is silly. It is just a normal "What would have happened if the infraction had not occurred?" From grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu Thu Sep 30 02:49:19 2004 From: grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:49:19 -0400 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 In-Reply-To: <415A7582.8030004@hdw.be> References: <415A7582.8030004@hdw.be> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040929213128.01f7d230@mail.comcast.net> At 04:42 AM 9/29/2004, Herman De Wael wrote: >(I hope your computers don't thread alphabetically - this comes after 9, >not after 1) > >recap: > >17 93 >N/no A875 > Q98543 > 3 >87652 KQJT >9643 KJ >7 AJ62 >AJ5 987 > A4 > QT6 > KT > KQT642 > > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 > >The Director has witnessed the hesitation. >An Appeal Committee is convened to render the final decision: >North gave the following reasons for his bid of 2Di: >- I am a passed hand >- I want a diamond lead >- I did not notice a hesitation >North adds, in Committee, that his opponents had bid quickly because they >were obliged to bid the hand in the same way as they had before, so his >partner's hesitation did not convey any meaning to him. > >The Appeal Committee discovered one more fact the Director had not >considered before: if North had not called 2 Diamonds, the board would >have had to be cancelled anyway. Therefore, if we do adjust to a result in which North passed, the ruling is A+ for both sides. (At last! A correct ruling in which NS get the better of a bridge result or average plus!) >The Appeal Committee came out with a ruling that the result should stand, >basing its decision (probably among others) that East's double contributed >to the bad result. He could easily have bid 2Sp and score a normal result. I don't know the Welsh standards for irrational, wild, or gambling, but I am inclined to agree here. East has no spots, and he has a very offensive hand for major-suit play. If he bids 2D, West will have no idea what to do. If 2D is ruled as irrational, wild, or gambling, then this is a case for a split-score ruling. E-W get the table result of -180 for the bad double. N-S get the worst result that was at all probable without their infraction, which is the worse of average-plus or the adjusted result. If North passes, then East bids 2S, West bids 3S, and East passes. South leads CK, West leads a rump, and South cashes CQ and gives North a ruff. Since E-W are the NOS, I will allow East to guess the hearts correctly, for -140 to N-S. I would assume that -140 is worse than average-plus, so N-S get average-plus. (-140 is certainly "at all probable", even if E-W might have overbid to 4S and would go down half the time in 3S.) So the ruling is average-plus to N-S, -180 to E-W. From adam@irvine.com Thu Sep 30 03:02:14 2004 From: adam@irvine.com (Adam Beneschan) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:02:14 -0700 Subject: [blml] Which law? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:17:15 EDT." <6.1.2.0.0.20040929210901.01f3af58@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200409300202.TAA18055@mailhub.irvine.com> David Grabiner wrote: > >This one comes from a Dutch mailing list: > > > >S/- T32 > > 843 > > AK986 > > T6 > >KQ J6 > >QT2 A96 > >JT Q5432 > >KQ9842 J53 > > A98754 > > KJ75 > > 7 > > A7 > > > >South is declarer in 2S. > > > >Opening lead CK for the A. Declarer plays SA and a spade. West cashes > >the CQ and plays the DJ to A. Declarer cashes DK and plays D9, covered > >and ruffed. So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around, > >so it appears that the position is: > > > > > >S/- T > > 843 > > 986 > > -- > >-- -- > >QT2 A96 > >-- 54 > >984 J > > 987 > > KJ7 > > -- > > -- > > > >Declarer crosses to the dummy with a trump, calls for the D9, 8 and 6 to > >discard 3 hearts and is about to claim the last tricks with top trumps > >when somebody wakes up. Director! > > > >Now what? Which law applies here? > > The D9 was played to the seventh trick, so it was not in dummy at the > eighth trick, despite being on the card table. > > L46E4 says that the call of the D9 was void and declarer can designate any > legal card from dummy, but he didn't. Since dummy played no card to the > trick, East led to the trick, and his lead was the D4, which won the > trick. East then accepted dummy's D8 lead out of turn to the next trick, > so dummy won the D8 and D6 tricks. I wonder if I'm alone in finding this line of reasoning has rather obnoxious consequences. Dummy and/or declarer clearly committed an irregularity, first dummy by not turning the card face down as required by L65A, then declarer by calling for a card that's not in dummy's hand (although I've searched the Laws and cannot find anything that specifically says that once a card is played it is no longer in that player's hand, if L65A is violated). But if we reason that, since the D9 is not in dummy's hand and thus declarer's call of D9 is void, as if it had never happened, we then have to rule that East has led out of turn. In this case, South was asleep and followed, thus accepting the lead out of turn. But what if...? Suppose that declarer calls the D9 from dummy, but dummy leaves the D9 face up on the table; then a few tricks later, declarer calls for the D9 again, East doesn't notice anything is wrong because has enough to worry about watching declarer's and partner's spot cards without making sure dummy is turning his cards correctly, so he follows, and then South calls the TD and claims that East led out of turn, because although declarer called for the still-face-up D9 and dummy took the card and placed it in the played position, the Laws say that none of that really happened because D9 isn't really in dummy's hand and thus declarer's designation is void. So do we penalize E-W now for N-S's mistakes? As TD, how do you rule on the lead-out-of-turn question? Of course, the correct ruling is to whack South in the nose with the Law book (L94). But the fact is that North's violation of L65A caused the problem, and since (in the original case where South follows to the lead out of turn) this violation was a direct cause of East's error and of all the other irregularities that followed, we need to go back and deal with the first irregularity, adjust the score based on what should have happened after that point (relying on L84E), and forget about everything else that happened afterwards. So I wouldn't bother trying to apply L46E4, L67B1, L64C, or any of that. Trying to apply those Laws seems to be trying to deal with the wrong problem. As I mentioned before, I really think the Laws need to deal with this situation cleanly. Apparently it does happen sometimes. I recently read a book review of "Kantar on Kontract", and one of the stories Kantar tells in this book involved a lady client who would sometimes set her hand face down on the table so that she could get a cigarette and light it (or something like that). So of course one day she set her hand down, lit her cigarette, and then picked up the wrong "hand"---the tricks she had already turned---and started playing from that hand. What do the Laws say about this? Nothing. And if TD's try to apply the Laws that do exist, they may end up finding the *opponents* of the offender guilty of playing out of turn. This really needs to be addressed. -- Adam From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Thu Sep 30 03:02:15 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 03:02:15 +0100 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 References: <415A7472.7010102@hdw.be> <6.1.2.0.0.20040929212911.01f68f58@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <001301c4a691$82364540$12330952@AnnesComputer> So would I if he had made a ruling :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J. Grabiner" To: "blml" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:30 AM Subject: Re: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 > At 04:38 AM 9/29/2004, Herman De Wael wrote: >>recap: >>17 93 >>N/no A875 >> Q98543 >> 3 >>87652 KQJT >>9643 KJ >>7 AJ62 >>AJ5 987 >> A4 >> QT6 >> KT >> KQT642 >> >> W N E S >> Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) >> Pass 1NT ..Pass >> 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 >> >>This is a very friendly tournament, even if of high level. The Director >>does not want to have to send either pair into appeal, so he chooses to >>call together an appeal committee of his own. >> >>Some questions have since been raised about the naming of such a >>committee. Anne has voiced the opinion that if the Director does not give >>a ruling, the committee should not be called an Appeal Committee. My >>opinion is that if you want to be pedantic about such naming, I can easily >>write down a ruling (say -420 or -570), so what's the point? > > L83 allows the TD to appeal his own ruling, so I would call it an appeals > committee. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From hermandw@hdw.be Thu Sep 30 08:33:06 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:33:06 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 In-Reply-To: <001301c4a691$82364540$12330952@AnnesComputer> References: <415A7472.7010102@hdw.be> <6.1.2.0.0.20040929212911.01f68f58@mail.comcast.net> <001301c4a691$82364540$12330952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <415BB6B2.10107@hdw.be> Which is precisely my point. If the only way I can call this an appeal committee is by writing down a ruling, I shall: +730 anyone? Anne, you're just being pedantic and you are putting the letter of the regulations (and please show those regulations to me) before common sense. Anne Jones wrote: > So would I if he had made a ruling :-) > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J. Grabiner" > > To: "blml" > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 2:30 AM > Subject: Re: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 > > >> At 04:38 AM 9/29/2004, Herman De Wael wrote: >> >>> recap: >>> 17 93 >>> N/no A875 >>> Q98543 >>> 3 >>> 87652 KQJT >>> 9643 KJ >>> 7 AJ62 >>> AJ5 987 >>> A4 >>> QT6 >>> KT >>> KQT642 >>> >>> W N E S >>> Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) >>> Pass 1NT ..Pass >>> 2Cl 2Di Dble All Pass 8 tricks NS+180 >>> >>> This is a very friendly tournament, even if of high level. The >>> Director does not want to have to send either pair into appeal, so he >>> chooses to call together an appeal committee of his own. >>> >>> Some questions have since been raised about the naming of such a >>> committee. Anne has voiced the opinion that if the Director does not >>> give a ruling, the committee should not be called an Appeal >>> Committee. My opinion is that if you want to be pedantic about such >>> naming, I can easily write down a ruling (say -420 or -570), so >>> what's the point? >> >> >> L83 allows the TD to appeal his own ruling, so I would call it an >> appeals committee. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blml mailing list >> blml@rtflb.org >> http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk Thu Sep 30 09:35:34 2004 From: grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk (Grattan Endicott) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:35:34 +0100 Subject: [blml] Pass Pass References: <000901c4a543$0a7729b0$02b3fea9@ACER> <00d001c4a60c$f71bf740$d3e5f1c3@LNV> <002a01c4a613$d0ea1e10$12330952@AnnesComputer> Message-ID: <002c01c4a6c8$e77067b0$a862893e@yourtkrv58tbs0> from Grattan Endicott grandeval@vejez.fsnet.co.uk [also gesta@tiscali.co.uk] ********************************* " I didn't write the rules" "All the more reason not to play the game." ~ father's advice in 'The Bonfire of the Vanities'. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Jones" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Pass Pass > Tee Hee - I feel at this stage that the limit of my > involvement in this was to give Herman Bed and > Breakfast. I WAS NOT THERE!!!! < +=+ Did you put something in his coffee? +=+ From schoderb@msn.com Thu Sep 30 11:38:15 2004 From: schoderb@msn.com (WILLIAM SCHODER) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:38:15 -0400 Subject: [blml] Which law? References: <200409281526.i8SFQsfH023098@cfa.harvard.edu> <415B65A8.8070309@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Thank you Steve. Every now and then there is a ray of light in the darkness. Why pass by the obvious in Law 12 A 1 and go through ridiculous manipulations and stretches of the imagination to make some law fit that doesn't apply? Oh yes, I forgot! So many feel they are much wiser and well informed in bridge and English than Kaplan and previous Review Committees. To extend the use of Laws to where the non-offending side becomes offenders in a case for which 12A1 was purposely provided surpasses sophistry. Kojak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Willner" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [blml] Which law? > > From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" > > So-far so good, but now dummy forgets to turn D9 around,... > [and D9 is "played" later] > > Easy one. L65A, 12A1, 12C2, maybe 12C3. Adjust to the result if dummy > had turned the card over as and when required (usual "likely" and "at > all probable"). Treating this infraction as a revoke or lead out of > turn is silly. It is just a normal "What would have happened if the > infraction had not occurred?" > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > From twm@cix.co.uk Thu Sep 30 13:16:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 6 In-Reply-To: <415A70E0.9050800@hdw.be> Message-ID: Herman wrote: > A second auction starts, with pair A obliged to make the same calls: > > W N E S > Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) > Pass 1NT ..Pass > 2Cl 2Di > > at which point pair A say the bidding has indeed gone the same as > before. "including the hesitation?" asks the TD. "including the > hesitation" say pair A. No comment from pair D about this hesitation. Personally I would consider it grossly unfair on a South capable of in tempo bidding if the TD didn't check. Pair A would have information from playing at the wrong table to which they were not entitled (it would also be unfair to make this UI to Ae). > So the board has now become playable has it not? Not until you tell me what systems D/B were playing. Pass of 1N using DONT is very different to a pass of 1N playing natural (or Astro etc). The auction being "much the same" may be close enough for average club players (who just want to play and don't draw inferences anyway). But let us try to forget that this event was played in Wales and instead assume a level of player beyond mediocrity. Slight inferences *might* matter to good players. If we let these sorts of hands be played out we will often end up adjusting afterwards for TD error. Tim From twm@cix.co.uk Thu Sep 30 13:16:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 In-Reply-To: <415A7472.7010102@hdw.be> Message-ID: Herman wrote: > This is a very friendly tournament, even if of high level. The > Director does not want to have to send either pair into appeal, so he > chooses to call together an appeal committee of his own. Why? If he wants to consult before giving a ruling he may (and should) do so. If he wants the form of this consultation to be a panel of experts he may do so. > Some questions have since been raised about the naming of such a > committee. Anne has voiced the opinion that if the Director does not > give a ruling, the committee should not be called an Appeal Committee. > My opinion is that if you want to be pedantic about such naming, I can > easily write down a ruling (say -420 or -570), so what's the point? You could - but to do so would be frivolous. If you call your consultation panel an AC you are denying the contestants the right to appeal the initial ruling. This is not a matter of pedantry but of due process. Tim From twm@cix.co.uk Thu Sep 30 13:16:00 2004 From: twm@cix.co.uk (Tim West-Meads) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 In-Reply-To: <415A7582.8030004@hdw.be> Message-ID: Poor bloody North is all I can say! The WBF says he will be in breach of L74 if he deliberately selects a bid that he believes will be different to that made originally. He has UI from partner's BIT - but AI from the TD's question robs that of much suggestive value (or does it?). I pretty much guarantee he's going to get something wrong! Why couldn't you just let them finish the board the first time! Tim From hermandw@hdw.be Thu Sep 30 13:26:48 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:26:48 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <415BFB88.5040104@hdw.be> Tim West-Meads wrote: > Herman wrote: > > >>A second auction starts, with pair A obliged to make the same calls: >> >> W N E S >> Aw Dn Ae Ds (players by pair letter) >> Pass 1NT ..Pass >> 2Cl 2Di >> >>at which point pair A say the bidding has indeed gone the same as >>before. "including the hesitation?" asks the TD. "including the >>hesitation" say pair A. No comment from pair D about this hesitation. > > > Personally I would consider it grossly unfair on a South capable of in > tempo bidding if the TD didn't check. Pair A would have information from > playing at the wrong table to which they were not entitled (it would also > be unfair to make this UI to Ae). > I don't really understand this. Do you think it unfair if the TD does not check? is the TD no longer allowed to believe the players? Or are you saying that the TD must try and get all the AI from table one as well as just the bidding? In which case you might just throw out L15 altogether. > >>So the board has now become playable has it not? > > > Not until you tell me what systems D/B were playing. Pass of 1N using > DONT is very different to a pass of 1N playing natural (or Astro etc). > Now you are going extremely far in your appication of L15. > The auction being "much the same" may be close enough for average club > players (who just want to play and don't draw inferences anyway). But let > us try to forget that this event was played in Wales and instead assume a did you forget your smiley? This event contained nothing but players who have appeared in the Camrose. Several of the people named A,B,C and D would be known on this list, and not just to the Welsh readers. > level of player beyond mediocrity. Slight inferences *might* matter to > good players. If we let these sorts of hands be played out we will often > end up adjusting afterwards for TD error. > which would not change from cancelling the board anyway. > Tim > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Thu Sep 30 13:37:30 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:37:30 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <415BFE0A.2090501@hdw.be> Tim West-Meads wrote: > Herman wrote: > > >>This is a very friendly tournament, even if of high level. The >>Director does not want to have to send either pair into appeal, so he >>chooses to call together an appeal committee of his own. > > > Why? If he wants to consult before giving a ruling he may (and should) do > so. If he wants the form of this consultation to be a panel of experts he > may do so. > And how many players should he consult? And how many should he leave out in order to be left with an appeal committee. There were 32 high level players in this room, 8 of which were now in the case itself, and all others have played the board as well. Rather give it to an AC straight away. > >>Some questions have since been raised about the naming of such a >>committee. Anne has voiced the opinion that if the Director does not >>give a ruling, the committee should not be called an Appeal Committee. >>My opinion is that if you want to be pedantic about such naming, I can >>easily write down a ruling (say -420 or -570), so what's the point? > > > You could - but to do so would be frivolous. OK, so I write down -140. Not frivolous at all. But since I am going to have to present my ruling to the AC, and I'm going to tell them I did not consult in making that ruling - what use is it? > If you call your > consultation panel an AC you are denying the contestants the right to > appeal the initial ruling. This is not a matter of pedantry but of due > process. > Yes it is pedantry. I am already denying them the right to appeal since I decide to appeal myself. Due process is served. I really don't see why the laws authorize me to appeal my own ruling, if they then also demand of me that my ruling be well-founded? I cannot do both. I cannot in all honesty present a ruling that I believe in, and also appeal it myself. So either you ask me to make a decision, and present only one pair with a right to appeal, or allow me to hand the final decision over to the AC, in which case you should not force me to draw the line. I am not qualified to decide whether or not pass is a LA. Don't force me to write down a ruling and then say that I have no idea if that ruling is even sensible. If I make a ruling and then see the "wronged" party appeal, then I shall defend the reasons for my ruling towards the AC. But I'm not going before an AC saying "I ruled this way or that but I have no idea why - the only reason why I gave a ruling at all is because Tim and Anne refuse to call you guys an AC if I don't". Sorry! > Tim > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From hermandw@hdw.be Thu Sep 30 13:46:32 2004 From: hermandw@hdw.be (Herman De Wael) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:46:32 +0200 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <415C0028.2010005@hdw.be> Tim West-Meads wrote: > Poor bloody North is all I can say! > > The WBF says he will be in breach of L74 if he deliberately selects a bid > that he believes will be different to that made originally. He > has UI from partner's BIT - but AI from the TD's question robs that of > much suggestive value (or does it?). I pretty much guarantee he's going > to get something wrong! > > Why couldn't you just let them finish the board the first time! > because L15 does not allow for that. And despite what some people have suggested, I do believe L15 is the one to apply. > Tim > > > _______________________________________________ > blml mailing list > blml@rtflb.org > http://www.amsterdamned.org/mailman/listinfo/blml > -- Herman DE WAEL Antwerpen Belgium http://www.hdw.be From anne.jones1@ntlworld.com Thu Sep 30 18:11:18 2004 From: anne.jones1@ntlworld.com (Anne Jones) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:11:18 +0100 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 References: <415A7472.7010102@hdw.be> <6.1.2.0.0.20040929212911.01f68f58@mail.comcast.net> <001301c4a691$82364540$12330952@AnnesComputer> <415BB6B2.10107@hdw.be> Message-ID: <004601c4a710$80703890$12330952@AnnesComputer> > Herman de Wael wrote > Which is precisely my point. If the only way I can call this an appeal > committee is by writing down a ruling, I shall: +730 anyone? > Anne, you're just being pedantic and you are putting the letter of the > regulations (and please show those regulations to me) before common sense. > Do you really want me to do this Herman? OK. I will not be pedantic and read the Law book, I am sure you know it as well as I do. You heard my opinion at the weekend of course and it is the opinion of others that you really seek. The conditions of contest with regard to appeals read :-- Appeals: The TD must first give a ruling. There is an Appeal fee of £10. The TD will form an Appeals Committee of 3 from players (or others of sufficient standing), choosing, as best he can, those not directly affected by the result of the Appeal. Any Appeals outstanding on Saturday wilkl be heard at 10.30 a.m. on Sunday. I have seen the Appeal form - there is nothing besides a board number and hand record on it. No ruling - no £10 - no form = No Appeal. What you did was a consultation process. Anne From identdep_op0@citibank.com Thu Sep 30 19:33:43 2004 From: identdep_op0@citibank.com (CitiBank) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:33:43 +0100 Subject: [blml] Identity Theft Solutions Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010104010409030200060004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

in 1927 Tour de France in 1831 The point is It takes me only Women I'll speak my mind. in 1975 Hewlett Packard pretty much. The NFL What's new? in fact Magazines Let me Pop Music I'm not so well we are here may close Fonts let me see... in 2004 investigate blackouts Stephen King Travel

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T1jNZc7zntX/rGc+/xnQjHbzow0NZ0snes+DNvKcYWziO3tax5FW4YJLrWkbPzrEgq4wqgsN5y0/Gctg tnGslXzhUeOaCrfGwa5z7esefFrXrv41sX1AayX0utjKXjazm+3sZ0P7BrjtIymT4NqmbpOpVk0mY/ka 7QvKVVZ6dam3uWnuck/2o9j9Nt7Q6UjiVjWqpERlt2VbbnizG4PgzSZkwVnMah4UvC/1N0rPHVSCezuX 8uatWeEK13XnO2fpdqhl3zlci4Ny3Mzc+MELm27BAjaito240SZe2oF7drQFTyxMOa7y1ZI2tCgfOcmJ ZnKQuju5mv2jwYnb87smHLF13Wu4a27zZrSCXOGX9SvNFWrUjhsTpq5lOVkfC/SiG31ops2tQGkK2sIm fNw/1zhmU351uma9aM2krbtxTtrrTl2X0PWmtsnNbamDNbYoD2/aozbxTEoM4n0/ut1ZgHWFCX7wQlMn J/m+MDuGAAAh/nR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0dHR0 Z3Bjbnp5cXJtcGVncHVhd29kdW10Z3FseG56Y2dleW13bXZqa2FuYmJtcHN1eHkAO2== --------------010104010409030200060004-- From henk@amsterdamned.org Thu Sep 30 23:00:02 2004 From: henk@amsterdamned.org (Henk Uijterwaal) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:00:02 +0200 Subject: [blml] Usenet bridge abbreviations Message-ID: (Automated, regular posting) Usenet Bridge Abbreviations ABF Australian Bridge Federation AC Appeals committee ACBL American Contract Bridge League AI Authorised information ArtAS Artificial adjusted score AssAS Assigned adjusted score ATF Across-the-field [matchpointing] ATTNA Appeal to the National Authority BBL British Bridge League [now defunct] BGB Bridge Great Britain BIT Break in Tempo BLML Bridge-laws mailing list BoD Board of directors [ACBL] BoG Board of governors [ACBL] BOOT Bid-Out-Of-Turn CD Convention Disruption C&E Conduct and ethics [often hearings] CC Convention card CHO Center Hand Opponent [ie partner] CoC Conditions of contest COOT Call-Out-Of-Turn CoP Code of practice CPU Concealed partnership understanding CTD Chief Tournament director DBF Danish Bridge Federation DIC Director in charge DP Disciplinary penalty EBL European Bridge League EBU English Bridge Union EHAA Every Hand an Adventure [a system] F2F Face-to-face [to distinguish from Online bridge] FOLOOT Faced Opening-Lead-Out-Of-Turn GCC General Convention Chart [ACBL] HUM Highly Unusual Method IB Insufficient Bid IBLF International Bridge Laws Forum LA Logical alternative L&EC Laws & Ethics Committee [English, Welsh or Scottish] LHO Left hand Opponent Lnn Law number nn LOL Little old lady [may be of either sex] LOOT Lead-Out-Of-Turn MB Misbid ME Misexplanation MI Misinformation MPC Major penalty card mPC Minor penalty card MSC Master Solvers' Club [The Bridge World] NA National Authority NABC ACBL North American Bridge Championships NBB Nederlandse Bridge Bond [Dutch Bridge League] NBO National Bridge organisation NCBO National Contract Bridge organisation NIBU Northern Ireland Bridge Union NO Non-offender NOs Non-offenders NOS Non-offending side OBM Old Black Magic OBOOT Opening-Bid-Out-Of-Turn OKB OKBridge OLB Online bridge [to distinguish from Face-to-face bridge] OLOOT Opening-Lead-Out-Of-Turn OOT Out-Of-Turn Os Offenders OS Offending side pd Partner PLOOT Play-Out-Of-Turn POOT Pass-Out-Of-Turn PP Procedural penalty RA Regulating Authority RGB rec.games.bridge [newsgroup] RGBO rec.games.bridge.okbridge [newsgroup] RHO Right Hand Opponent RLB Real Life Bridge [to distinguish from Online bridge] RoC Rule of coincidence RoW Rest of World [apart from North America] RTFLB Read the [fabulous] Law book! SBU Scottish Bridge Union SO Sponsoring organisation TBW The Bridge World [magazine] TD Tournament director TDic Tournament director in charge TFLB The [fabulous] Law book! UI Unauthorised information WBF World Bridge Federation WBFLC WBF Laws Committee WBU Welsh Bridge Union YC Young Chelsea ZO Zonal organisation ZT Zero Tolerance [for unacceptable behaviour] Hand diagrams: *3m 3C or 3D [minor] *3M 3H or 3S [Major] ..3H 3H after a hesitation 3H! 3H alerted The above may also be found on David Stevenson's Bridgepage at http://blakjak.com/usenet_br.htm From richard.hills@immi.gov.au Thu Sep 30 23:54:50 2004 From: richard.hills@immi.gov.au (richard.hills@immi.gov.au) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:54:50 +1000 Subject: [blml] Cardiff Ruling 9 In-Reply-To: <415BB6B2.10107@immi.gov.au> Message-ID: Anne Jones wrote: >>So would I if he had made a ruling :-) Herman De Wael wrote: >Which is precisely my point. If the only way I can call this an appeal >committee is by writing down a ruling, I shall: +730 anyone? > >Anne, you're just being pedantic and you are putting the letter of the >regulations (and please show those regulations to me) before common sense. RJH writes: Imprimis. Surely a major point of blml is being pedantic. Only by being pedantic can blmlers highlight unintended consequences of sloppy drafting of the Laws. (And hopefully see those flaws resolved in 2006.) Secundus. In my pedantic personal opinion, Law 81C9 "...to refer a matter to the appropriate committee" does *not* necessarily require a TD to give a ruling *before* referring a matter to the appropriate committee. Indeed, if a possible Law 74 infraction is in question, it is often best for the TD to leave *both* the initial ruling and the final ruling in the hands of the appropriate Conduct and Ethics Committee. Best wishes Richard James Hills Movie grognard and general guru From wayne.burrows@xtra.co.nz Thu Sep 30 23:55:49 2004 From: wayne.burrows@xtra.co.nz (Wayne Burrows) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:55:49 +1200 Subject: [blml] 1NT Psyche Message-ID: <003f01c4a740$a1712970$0401010a@Desktop> Hi Playing online in an ACBL tourney I opened 1NT in 3rd seat with a pick-up partner on a 3-count. We were playing 10-12 1NT and the vulnerability was favourable. The director later tried to tell me that this psyche was illegal. I can't see this. Does anyone know of a relevant regulation? TIA Wayne From SeniorKibitzer@aol.com Wed Sep 29 04:04:05 2004 From: SeniorKibitzer@aol.com (SeniorKibitzer@aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:05 EDT Subject: [blml] Pass Pass Message-ID: -------------------------------1096427045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/09/2004 11:20:09 GMT Standard Time, d2393@ist.utl.pt writes: South dealer. North passes out of turn. East is looking at his scorecard and South, thinking for some reason that East had passed, also passes. TD! Laws 29, 30, etc There may be two Passes out of rotation. Or maybe not! First one first. I'll ask East if he wants to accept North's opening Pass out of turn and I'll explain: If he doesn't, then North's Pass is cancelled and South's bid stands and North must pass at his first turn to call. If he does accept it, then South's Pass is now out of rotation and I would ask West if he wants to accept South's Pass. If West would, it's now West's call and no further penalty, and if he wouldn't, then East calls and South has to Pass at this first turn and there's no further penalty. I now ask East for his decision with no confering with West! East now asks me to repeat the options. I take a deep breath..... Best wishes from Barrie Barrie Partridge Senior TD for Sheffield BC, England -------------------------------1096427045 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 28/09/2004 11:20:09 GMT Standard Time, d2393@ist.utl= .pt=20 writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>South=20 dealer. North passes out of turn. East is looking at his scorecard
and=20 South, thinking for some reason that East had passed, also=20 passes.

TD!
Laws 29, 30, etc
 
There may be two Passes out of rotation. Or maybe not!
 
First one first. I'll ask East if he wants to accept North's opening Pa= ss=20 out of turn and I'll explain:
 
If he doesn't, then North's Pass is cancelled and South's bid stands an= d=20 North must pass at his first turn to call.
 
If he does accept it, then South's Pass is now out of rotation and I wo= uld=20 ask West if he wants to accept South's Pass.
 
If West would, it's now West's call and no further penalty, and if he=20 wouldn't, then East calls and South has to Pass at this first turn and there= 's=20 no further penalty.
 
I now ask East for his decision with no confering with West!
 
East now asks me to repeat the options.
 
I take a deep breath.....
 
Best wishes=20 from Barrie

Barrie Partridge
Senior TD for Sheffield BC,=20 England
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